Thread 64125738

Hey /k/. Wanted to get a G23 as a first gun but the guys at my local LGS said to get a 1911 in .38 Super on the basis that the 23 was ''unreliable horseshit''. Can any anons give me input on this? Thanks

>>64125738 (OP)
Glock 23? Yeah, 1911 all day everyday (in .45acp).

>>64125738 (OP)
>the guys at my local LGS said to get a 1911 in .38 Super
are they mexicans? cause it does matter if the only caliber you can get is 38 super

>>64125738 (OP)
Go 1911, and don't look back. Tacticool LARPers will sperg out and act like if you don't have a double stack lol9mm with 17+1 rounds and a holosun, you're gonna get clapped. They're retarded faggots who have never felt the joy of pretending they're Tom Selleck in a tropical paradise, and it shows. On top of that, .45 Hornady Critical Defense will put down any rabbid negro or methed out tweaker in no time.
Plus, if you know how to find it, you can get steel ball from old WW2 surplus boomers.
At the end of the day, it's your money and your gun. Just remember the #1 rule of firearm ownership: have fun.

>>64125738 (OP)
...why G23? Are you in a "military caliber" restricted country and can't get 9mm? Honestly if you want a compact Glock and you're going to be forced into 40 S&W, just get a G29 in 10mm, then get a conversion barrel so you can still shoot 40 out of it.
At least that way you've got options to include actual 10mm, plus you can get conversion barrels for 9X25 Dillon and have absolute screamer 9mm rounds too.

If barrels are restricted in addition to calibers, I'd honestly probably go with the 38 super 1911 instead of a 40S&W Glock, but that's just my opinion.
Both are probably fine.

if its a restricted caliber country he should go with the super. 40 is unpopluar as fuck worldwide and if its one of those countries conversion barrels are probably illegal/expensive. 10s worse than 40 in availability. 40 might be unpopular but its not unobtainum.

>>64125738 (OP)
This is terrible advice. .38 super is rare and expensive. They just want to upsell you on it and get rid of inventory.

Most people who advocate for .38 Super either do not actually have one or have an elaborate reloading set up. Most premium 1911 makers have admitted that most people do not buy .38 Super and if they do they order a 9mm barrel to be also fitted. It’s a dead caliber with a loud minority advocating for it.

>>64125893
>This is terrible advice. .38 super is rare and expensive. They just want to upsell you on it and get rid of inventory.
it entirely depends if he is in the usa or not

>>64125916
As far as I know the “loop hole” for .38 Super in Mexico was closed and .38 Super is banned.

>>64125845
OP here: I'm in the US, but I have heard from Hoplopfheil that .40 S&W is the best overall cartridge. Also most people speak highly of Glocks.

are you in mexico? .38 super is largely mexico and ancient IPSC shooters

>>64125968
Nah, .40 is a meme. Just get a 9mm, or 10mm for bigger bangs, or .45 if you're really boomerpilled

>>64126019
Alright, thanks.

>>64125738 (OP)
>on the basis that the 23 was ''unreliable horseshit''.
He's lying; buy whatever you like. Both guns are good. Salesmen do lie to sell inventory sometimes. While .38 Super is a cool round; if you buy it, the feds will assume you are affiliated with the cartels. Only Mexicans buy that round nowadays (Mexico banned .45 ACP and 9mm).

>>64125968
>I have heard from Hoplopfheil that .40 S&W is the best overall cartridge.
It's not a bad round, but it's not beginner friendly (more expensive than 9mm, which means you'll practice less often).

>>64125925
>As far as I know the “loop hole” for .38 Super in Mexico was closed and .38 Super is banned.
It is for law-abiding citizens, but that just means there are tons of guns chambered in it; now the civilians can only buy .380 ACP.

>>64125968
.40 S&W Glocks suck ass and Hop is a homo

>>64125968
I own four pistols in .40. And three of them I don't shoot anymore and just keep tucked around the house as spares for self-defense. The fourth is a G23 I got a conversion barrel for in 9mm and occasionally EDC it. I genuinely used to prefer the recoil of .40 over 9, but grew out of it.

If you plan to practice a lot, 9mm, .380, or .45 are your best options in a semi-auto.

>>64125968
>have heard from Hoplopfheil that .40 S&W is the best overall cartridge
He's absolutely full of garbage if he actually suggested that.
It's the worst. You get the mag capacity of 10mm, but energy of hot 9mm.
It's also becoming less common and more expensive as LEO agencies phase it out and demand dries up.
If you're in the US just get a fucking Glock 19 and be done with it.
Or get a 45 1911, not 38 super, and be done with it in a different way. Either is fine.

>>64126550
Quoting energy numbers in pistols without providing average depth of compared commonly used bullet types and expanded size is telling us exactly nothing.
Pistols do not kill or damage humans directly by energy transfer. On a very basic level how fast the bullet hits tells you how much the impact resistance is increased. Then how much momentum the bullet will have to carry it to its final depth. Energy/impact resistance is what opens the bullet to its final diameter on expanding bullets.
A slower bullet that does not expand but has a greater starting diameter than another has as a final expanding diameter all things being equal can also have greater momentum meet less resistance and create a larger total volume wound channel.
Simple version
40 is better than 9mm at killing people. Isn't science fun?

>>64125893
>.38 Super
My overall impression of it as well. Outstanding cartridge but users need to be well into reloading to take advantage of it and ammo is scarce
Glad it's still around but yikes

>>64126585
>40 is better than 9mm at killing people. Isn't science fun?
40 is like 10% better at killing people than 9 at 150% the price and -2 or 3 rounds in mag capacityjwrwtx

>>64125738 (OP)
1911 is for boomers and LARPers, Glock is for people who just want a gun and don't think about it beyond that, it's a good choice. .38 Super is a horrible caliber and the only use case that exists is if you're somehow related to a mexican cartel, get anything else, preferably something cheap that is tried and true, like .45 or 9mm

>>64126585
Then why get a G23 when a G29 exists?
Or a G30?

>>64126659
10%?
You may want to check your volume of a cylinder math again at the very least.
40 is significantly better at killing humans.
>>negative two or three rounds
In a reality where 6 is more than enough for 99% of all handgun incidents -2 or -3 when capacity is in the teens is irrelevant.
9mm just doesn't get the job done. 40 does reliably.

>>64126731
>9mm just doesn't get the job done. 40 does reliably.
everyone forced to use 40 reverted to 9
even if you want to argue the % is higher it doesnt matter, its still a pistol round and all pistol rounds suck.

>>64126744
Just as everyone who was forced to use 10mm was forced to switch to 40. They of course were forced to switch from 9mm to begin with, then forced to switch back. Claiming manufacturered reports with major flaws in the basic premise alone tossed out by paid actors to justify accounting decisions for government bodies is low fruit that doesn't even warrant a legitimate counter.
On mass diameter and velocity alone as a calculation the 40 is a 39.19% improvement over the 9mm. That isn't just significant, thats a fucking statement. Start comparing actual wound channel volumes in mammalian tissues between the two and the gap grows even greater.
In pistols he who makes the largest diameter, largest volume holes wins. Thats just how it works all things being equal.
.40 is a far better choice in a handgun if you need to kill things. 9mm does not bring anything to the table when it comes to terminal ballistics.
Unless you are shooting 10,000 rounds a year comp shooting or more than I would argue price isn't a huge factor either. 40 practice ammo can be had relatively cheap if you look for it

>>64125738 (OP)
bersa trp9 trust me

Pistol calibers don't matter for shit. Defensive rounds exist in all of them, you're not limited to fmj target ammunition. It only matters if it's comfortable enough to actually carry it and can hit what you're shooting at.

In that sense, 1911s are kind of heavy. I actually find it easier to carry by adding more weight, by putting an extra magazine clip on the opposite side of my belt.

>>64126776
Okay, again - if a 40 caliber projectile is so much fucking better than 9mm, why would you kneecap yourself by using a 40S&W G23 in a world where a 10mm G29 exists?

>>64127380
Using the least capable of a bad choice is a bad choice and as an argument its fucking stupid.
>>64127381
Personally I wouldn't use a short barrel for any. That said most 10mm factory expanding ammo (a bulk of what is available but not all) is designed to stop at the same distance inside the body as 40. So unless we are talking solids where the difference is very much in favor of the 10mm, all 10mm brings to the table in MOST expanding ammo is a bit more expansion and a few inches of depth. Personally not enough for me to choose 10mm. Just like 9mm and +p 9mm aren't really that much different on live targets.
Normal frame glock vs large, cheaper more available ammo, less recoil ect.

>>64127404
A shot from any of them will kill just as dead as the rest. This isn't a min/max tabletop game. Not that any of you shoot enough for any of this to matter, but getting more rounds on target would be a better metric than a few mms here or there per shot.

>>64127413
Correct and 10 mm just isn't worth the squeeze for urban combat or self defense situations. Need more firepower in urban combat, self defense get a rifle.
(As said on other threads: 10 mm is fine for handgun hunters and long range shooters that handload/custom loads, in a 5-inch+ barrel pistol But it's way more trouble than most people want or need to bother with for self defense or carry)
.40 S&W and .45 ACP are more than adequate if you need the step-up from 9 mm

>>64127766
>(As said on other threads: 10 mm is fine for handgun hunters and long range shooters that handload/custom loads, in a 5-inch+ barrel pistol But it's way more trouble than most people want or need to bother with for self defense or carry)
>.40 S&W and .45 ACP are more than adequate if you need the step-up from 9 mm
This reeks of Hop "muh S&W" cope bullshit.
40S&W is just as snappy in terms of recoil out of any compact or subcompact pistol, and has the same mag capacity.
Both are similarly stocked on store shelves, and cost roughly the same ordered online, but the largest difference between the two is that even the most basic 10mm load is WAY more energetic than most 40S&W (see pic related for links, look out up yourself), even out of subcompact barrel lengths.
So if 9mm isn't enough, you should be making the jump to 10mm, or 45.
The fact is that if you choose to CCW a 40S&W on purpose, and recommending the same to anyone else, you're doing yourself and them a disservice.
"More than adequate" in this case is cope. That's it.

>>64125738 (OP)
Go with the 23. Sounds like either fudds or mexicanos run your gun stores counter.
.40 is better than either 9mm or .38 Super (which is a niche anyways). Contrary to most beliefs 9mm is subpar for self defense. Either .40 or 10mm are superior choices. Make sure to get Buffalo Bore 10mm Heavys for optimal performance if you go with that.

>>64128537
.40 is better at what? Lower capacity? The same effect on target? Having more felt recoil? Having a higher price per round? .40 is going the way of the dodo and less and less offerings are being made in .40 and even less in 10mm.

>>64128552
Better overall terminal ballistics. Some shooting with a proper host would make OP used to shooting it.
Also if OP lives in big game country then it would make a round for that purpose.

>>64128585
Okay if you want that, you should use .357 mag or .44 mag, not shave a few more footpounds off a fly’s ass and upgrade from 9 to .40, the difference is literally negligible in real world use.

Now a real argument for .40 is the guns are usually discounted (since no one wants them) and you can roll that discount into a 9mm conversion barrel to get 2 calibers in 1 gun, some guns will also accept a .357sig barrel for more fun and a 3rd caliber.

>>64128628
>>the difference is negligible in real world use
No, the difference is demonstrable in real world use. From barriers to wound channel volume .40 is better than 9mm. Better as in the 9mm fails and the 40 repeatedly succeeds.
>>64127413
>>a shot from any of them will kill you just as dead
This is old school fudd tardism. There are pistol calibers that are demonstrably better than others at killing humans. There is special ammunition types, and in that category specific designs brands and weights for caliber that are demonstrably better for killing humans.
Quick what is the general recommendation for bear with a handgun in the backcountry by those that actually hunt bear with a pistol?
Why the one proven to work best is 44 mag with 240-305g hard cast bullets. Will a 9mm kill a bear? Sure. Will a 44 do it more reliably with a quicker kill and allow for bad angles, hits on bone and ribs and still provide depth where the 9mm would fail? Yes, why yes the fuck it would.
Will 40 be successful where the 9mm would not? Yes the fuck it will.
Fuck you clowns
>>All handgun calibers are the same
>>the best gun is the one on you
>>the best knife is the one you carry every day
>>the best rifle is the one you are the most accurate with
These are all things said by the fat fucking grandpa at the gun shot that cant shoot for shit and spends his days telling lies at the counter bugging actual customers who are not retarded.

>>64129281
Wow you sound emotionally devastated on realizing your favorite caliber is shit, do you need a hug?

You want a basic, no frills carry gun?
Glock 19. In a realistic self defense scenario, a cartridge more powerful than 9mm doesn’t do anything but fuck your follow up shots. There’s a good reason why Glock enjoys the position it does in the firearms world.

1911s are great, but I wouldn’t get one in anything except .45, 9mm, or 10mm. If it’s your first 1911, go for .45. And I wouldn’t recommend one as a carry gun.

>>64129281
For any realistic reason, if someone feels the need to upgrade from 9mm, they would be much better served by going straight to 10mm instead of the marginal increase offered by 40S&W.
That's it. That's the whole fucking enchilada in one sentence.

The only reason to even consider 40S&W is if you want a low power load to use in your 10mm gun for fun range time or whatever, similarly to how people use 38 special in their 357 mag revolvers.
Wtf are you actually hop or something, trying to defend an anemic, "dustbin of history" caliber?

>>64129449
OP here: Thank you anon.

>>64129531
>The only reason to even consider 40S&W
nah theres cheap posurp as a reason, its not a great reason since buying 40 costs more than 9. the hundred or so bucks saved disappears after a few cases.

>>64129531
Thats a completely ignorant take on 40. The 10mm was tested to the demands given by the FBI and passed. The 40 was a shortened 10mm that passed all the same tests the 10 did. With less recoil, and in the same platform as 9mm.
Most 10mm factory expanding ammo does not outperform 40 in any significant way. They both fall in the same depth parameters. They both make near enough the same wound channel volume. And the edge in expanding goes to 10mm its not significant. 10mm only shines in solids, handloading or actual loads where a through and through is considered ok.
9mm isn't good enough. 40 passed all the fbi tests 10mm did, 10mm ammo off the shelf offers no advantage over 40, 40 comes in pistols that are regular sized. Added bonus many can be barrel swapped to 357 sig, and barrel ejector swapped to 9mm.
10mm is a meme honestly. Its not as good as 357 magnum or 44 magnum.
If you want a magnum buy a real one.

>>64125738 (OP)
G23 is good, but get the shop guys to supply a 9mm conversion barrel too. You may need to change ejector and extractor if you're unlucky but it's super fucking cheap & easy and gives you some flexibility; but if you're really mechanically incompetent just get a G19 and call it good.
38 super is a great round but you're very limited in your choice of gun, and a 1911 isn't a great choice. General problem with "centrefire pistol that isn't 9x19" is that you'll either end up not shooting it very much or you'll be getting into handloading, and if you're handloading you can have a 9x19 barrel reamed for 356TSW giving .38 Super/357 SIG equivalent performance.

>>64125738 (OP)
>>Glock 23
Why would you like a gun with no soul, anon?

>>64129847
Because for your first gun, just fucking works > sovl.

>>64125968
>.40 S&W
Is circumcised 10mm. It is shameful to even consider it.

>>64125738 (OP)
OP's thread is either just bait or they really are dumb as fuck.
The grip angle between those two is completely different. Never could get used to that fucked up glock angle.

>>64129847
I don't want my carry/training gun to have "muh sovl" I want it to be a tool that I can scratch or drop in the dirt without a second thought. I want it to literally develop a patina from being neglected so hard. Sovl is for range toys and fun guns, not practical serious guns.

>>64130052
Yes on both. Glock grip angle is fucked and the OP is bait.

>>64127924
>but the largest difference between the two is that even the most basic 10mm load is WAY more energetic than most 40S&W
Except if you're buying Federal ammo, they make the weakest 10mm and .40 cal and for some reason both are loaded to the exact same velocity. I honestly believe Federal wants both those rounds to fail so they can sell more 9mm.
>So if 9mm isn't enough, you should be making the jump to 10mm, or 45.
.40 S&W is very similar to .45 ACP, the same way that 10mm is very similar to .45 Super.

>>64125738 (OP)
I clicked on this thread a few times out of boredom. I'm gonna be real with you.
>G23 as a first gun
I don't care for Glock. They are unreliable. They jam. A lot. Watch police body camera videos online if you don't believe me. I absolutely wouldn't trust my life to one. M&P is at least a powerlevel above a Glock.
>.40
Dying cartridge, but not going away anytime soon. Used by cops, criminals, and competition shooters. Not the worst choice out there. A lot of bodies have been stacked with .40. It will serve you well. It is just more expensive than 9mm and will wear your gun out faster.
>1911
I don't recommend it as a first gun unless you *really* want a 1911. There is a bit of a learning curve and they can be very fussy. A polymer striker gun is going to be more forgiving as a first gun and I say that as a 1911 guy. However, if your heart is set on a 1911, then by all means get it. They live up to the hype and they are so much fun.
>.38 super
There is no reason to get a gun in .38 super unless you are Mexican, a cop or gangster from the 1930's who needs to shoot through car doors, or a competition shooter from the 1970's-80's. 9mm does 90% of what .38 super does. There is no point in getting it in the current year unless you are into reloading and you want to mess around with making ammo for it. If you want a 1911, get one in .45. You are kinda missing the point if you don't. That gunstore is probably trying to get rid of it because no one else wants it and you are just the sucker to take it off of their hands.

>>64125738 (OP)
I CARRY A 1911 CUZ THEY DONT MAKE A 1912...................GOBBLESS

>>64127924
Nobody cares. 10 mm is a blaster cartridge, only efficient out of 5-inch or greater length barrels. It's not for urban combat. It's great for bear hunting and long range silhoutte target shooting by firearms owners that load their own ammunition. Period.

>>64129531
>>64129789


If a single human being itt has not viewed this video, they need to rn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIB58HYc3F0

>>64129789
This anon is correct.

>>64125738 (OP)
Why not just get a Glock 22?
If the LGS is offering a full size .38 super vs a compact .40 S&W than it makes sense to choose a full size .40 S&W

>>64132330
>only efficient out of 5-inch or greater length barrels.
Patently false.
The weakest 10mm mogs 40 out of any barrel length, peasant.

>>64133266
I presume you own, carry, and have extensively shot both?

>>64133285
Yes. Well, no longer any 40S&W.
Still have G29 and G40 10mm.

>>64130052
>>>64125738 (OP) (OP)
>OP's thread is either just bait or they really are dumb as fuck.
>The grip angle between those two is completely different. Never could get used to that fucked up glock angle.
>>64130447
>>>64130052
>Yes on both. Glock grip angle is fucked and the OP is bait.

THIS

>>64133266
>'Patently'
10 mm is a blaster cartridge which as (You) well know in 4-inch or less barrels, its energy exits the muzzle in gas and flame. <--That is inefficient (use of the cartridge's load)

>>64129531
>going straight to 10mm

9 Dillon (parent case 10mm)

>>64136443
>its energy exits the muzzle in gas and flame.

Lends itself to porting and comps.

>>64136460
For greater than 5-inch length barrels.
10 mm is a blaster cartridge. It's the same principle as short-barrel .44 Magnum and .357 revolvers: Sure, you can carry and fire these all you want. But it's not an optimal use of that cartridge's power, downrange

>>64136479
It's not optimal, but it's worlds better than 40 from an equivalent length barrel.

>Want a Glock 23 or 1911 in 45 Auto or 2011 in 9
>Maybe even Mini-14 in 5.56/223
>LGS closet homo pushes Mini-30
>NoThanks.JPEG
>leave

If you don't know what you want, you're going to be taken by a salesperson. Do your research before you buy.

>>64130052
>Glock grip angle.

I used to think this was some lame ass meme shit but once you start using a 1911 you really do get how fucked up the Glock angle really is.

>>64125738 (OP)
I only know .38 super on paper but i owned a gen 3 g23 for years, no issues whatsoever and the recoil is not even slightly prohibitive. Got a 9mm conversion barrel for it, shooting +p its about the same using defensive loads, normal target ammos for each are also comparable even against standard pressure 9mm. Never had any jams ftf etc after thousands of both .40 and 9mm through it

>>64138466
>worlds better
checked,
For what? Self defense / urban combat? Not likely.

>>64125738 (OP)
The only reason to buy a G23 is because you are getting a used one for significantly less than what a new G19 costs and you plan on getting conversion barrels for 9mm and possibly 357 Sig (if you hate both your wrists and your wallet).
I've had one for years and the only reason I ever shoot it is because I keep stumbling over somebody trying to dump a bunch of 40 S&W for cheap. It isn't particularly pleasant to shoot, and the 9mm barrel is slightly loose so accuracy suffers. For a beginner, such a gun would be frustrating for learning the basics.
Reliability isn't a problem, unpleasant recoil is.
>38 Super 1911
Not a terrible option, only now you have expensive ammunition. I like 1911s, but if you are going to be shooting a lot, 45 is a bit cheaper and I think it is part of what makes the 1911 special. Gimping yourself early on with expensive/hard to find ammo isn't going to help.

Really, if defense isn't a concern and you just want to learn the basics get a Ruger MKIV. It is a pistol in .22LR. dirt cheap ammunition, almost no recoil, super easy to clean (NOTE: older models like the MK I, II, III are remarkably annoying to strip/reassemble).
If the gun needs to do everything, Glock is fine but get a 19, not a 23.
>>64125968
40 is great for security and police because it can go through barriers like car windshields a little easier, but there is little advantage other than that. For a regular Joe, the lower cost/recoil/higher mag cap of 9mm makes way more sense.
>>64132714
If getting a G22, why not either a 17 or move up to a 20?
>>64138695
Where did OP say anything about a Mini-14/30?

>>64139529
OP here: Thanks for a normal answer, anon. Much appreciated.

>>64139668
Also thanks as well.

>boomteen or glawk
begone boomer
>.38 Sooper
spic caliber, get .45
picrel

>>64140388
meant to say begome, but in all seriousness get what you want. capacity does t matter much and neither does cartridge with modern ammo

>>64125738 (OP)
Okay normally I'm joking but holy shit please just get a G19 or RXM or something, those are the most retarded picks imaginable

>>64125827
ok fudd

>>64127327
actually a very underrated gun

>>64141302
Hope you got something heavier than lvl 2 plates nigga.

>>64125968
Hop is the blackest most retarded gorilla monkey nigger in existence, at least brass fags is the funny kind of stupid

>>64125738 (OP)
>Can any anons give me input on this? Thanks
Ignore him, but a glock.

>>64125968
>.40 S&W is the best overall cartridge

>>64142943
>overall
I'm not the biggest .40 S&W proponent and don't prefer it but there's a good argument to be made that it is.
As I stated upthread, .40 and .45 ACP are the two best available self defense and urban combat semiauto pistol rounds

also everyone itt needs to watch this video -------- # 64132339

>>64144213
Not really, you might've had a point 10 or 15 years ago but the newer stuff like G2 and 135gr critical duty do well enough through tougher barriers that it's niche is pretty much gone. Even with gold dot and hst it was a pretty narrow advantage

>>64144232
not sure what you mean, those are 9 mm?
Sorry I'm going with more mass

>>64145899
A lot of people don't understand that when you are below the stretch capacity of human tissues energy figures are irrelevant as they are not doing anything for you. Its impact resistance that does most of the opening of a flowering bullet. So velocity matters. Its momentum that gets the bullet through. Its diameter and final diameter that tell you something about wound potential.
Taylor KO will give you a better idea of what pistol round will perform better in humans than energy numbers.

>>64125738 (OP)
Guys at your local LGS are idiots to suggest a 1911 but in .38 super.

If you want to maintain the 1911 look, get a M1911 in .45
If you prefer 9mm but still want the 1911 look, a Browning Hi-Power 9mm, or CZ 75.
If that don't float your boat, a Glock 19 Gen 5 in 9mm. Overrated imo, but a solid pick nevertheless.

And this whole boomer meme argument between 9mm, .40S&W, .45
I've found that it boils down to preference. If it drops a nigger at road rage distance, works for me. So if you prefer 9mm, good on you. If you prefer .45, have at it. If you enjoy using .40S&W, by all means.
If that doesn't suit you, then no one can stop you using a 10mm either.

>>64147984
>>I've found that it boils down to preference
Who the fuck are you? What actual experience do you have that runs counter to reality? 9mm doesn't reliably do that. Most pistol rounds dont. 180g soft OR solids have a history of doing just that reliably. 220g 45 softs or solids have a history or reliably doing just that. Others do not. Performance is not personal preference you zoomer fem dipshit.

>>64148128
Who the fuck am I? Who the fuck are you, kid?
Clearly you're someone who spends all day wasting their life away playing Call of Duty: Fagnite Edition who thinks is an armchair expert on firearms after every fantasy session.
>Zoomer fem dipshit
Look who's talking to the mirror.

>>64148293
At this point its starting to look like I might be your dad. I fucked a LOT of fat ugly dumb bitches back in the late 90s, early 2000s.

>>64147957
Understood what you posted but still don't think it matters. I'm going with .40 S&W or .45 ACP

>>64125738 (OP)
For what? For carrying obviously a G23 since it has zero feed issues with hollowpoints unlike many 1911s, and it has more capacity. For plinking, a 1911.

38 super is a meme