Thread 64132369

With the army museum currently not existing this would appear to be the main /k/ related museum in Taipei at the moment. It's main focus seems to be "stuff the Kuomintang brought along from the Forbidden City when they left for Taiwan", and as such what we'll be seeing here is mostly a lot of bronze and a bit of jade.

First out a bronze ge "daggeraxe", mounted for display much like it would have been mounted to a wooden pole originally: the tang passes through and then the holes are sued to lash it in place. These appear to have been mostly used as full sized polearms, though IIRC there's some old artwork of them being fitted on short poles for single handed use too. Late Western Zhou to early Spring and Autumn period (877-671 BC).

A pair of bronze knives, western Zhou period for the ring pommel (1046-771 BC), late western Zhou (877-771 BC) for one with the more squared off pommel.

Assorted jade implements, late neolithic era (ca 5000-1700 BC), two with modern approximations of the handles. The big one's a shovel, above it an axe, the loose blade just to the right of the axe being for a knife, the rest chisels and adzes.

Jade hand axe, Hongshan culture, ca 4500-3000 BC.

Jade yue axe. The hole's for lashing, not for the shaft. Possibly ceremonial.

Another one, both Liangzhu culture, 3200-2200 BC.

Another one, both Liangzhu culture, 3200-2200 BC.

Jade knife blades. These would also have been lashed to a wooden handle, pretty much just spine against the shaft. Longshan-Qijia, ca 2500-1700 BC.

Jade yazhang blade, Xia dynasty, ca 2070-1600 BC.
An ancestor of the ge perhaps? It mounts to the handle the same at least.

>>64132399
>>64132410
>>64132415
it's physically impossible to cut stone like this without mordern tools.
This was probably done by an advanced civilization or maybe aliens.

Jade yazhang blade, Xia dynasty, ca 2070-1600 BC.
An ancestor of the ge perhaps? It mounts to the handle the same at least.

>>64132369 (OP)
>mostly a lot of bronze and a bit of jade.
>Jade is a relatively hard gemstone, scoring between 6 and 7 on the Mohs hardness scale. Jadeite, a type of jade, is slightly harder than nephrite, another type, with a Mohs hardness of 6.5-7 versus nephrite's 6-6.5. While jade is not as hard as some other gemstones like diamonds, its toughness, or resistance to breaking and chipping, is a significant factor in its durability.
I would have thought it too soft.

>>64132420
>it's physically impossible to cut stone like this without mordern tools.
>This was probably done by an advanced civilization or maybe aliens
True. Many studies have proven ther were humans living on earth before people.

>>64132421
And I got the images out of order. So here's that one, and that was a pair of qi axes. The round one late Xia to early Shang dynasty (1800-1300 BC) and the bottom one Shang dynasty (1600-1046 BC).
The round one would be mounted just like the "normal" ones, with the rightmost part of the circle acting as the tang.

>>64132421
Must be some kind of primative chakram.

>>64132425
If you've yet to invent metalworking then I suspect you make do with what you have, while some later jade blades we see were likely ceremonial affairs. Dunno if they have any obsidian to speak of in the area as well, though whereas the nephrite is likely a bit behind in hardness there it should be much better in regards to toughness.
All of these ancient jade items are nephrite, the use of jadeite didn't kick off until relatively modern times.
Jadeite cabbage (apparently one of the museums two most famous items, the other one being "the meat shaped stone" which was sadly on loan to elsewhere when I visited).

Jade ge, late Shang dynasty (1300-1046 BC), sitting on top of a bi disc (a purely decorative(religious/ceremonial affair, just a round disc with a hole in the middle). A set like this (ideally already old antiques at the time) was often part of the burial regalia of aristocrats in the Western Zhou period, placed like this on the coffin or the corpse's chest.

In the following Eastern Zhou period the ge of this set gradually evolved into a simplified and purely ceremonial version called gui. The Gui-and-Bi set here is from the Han dynasty (206 BC-220 AD).

In the following Eastern Zhou period the ge of this set gradually evolved into a simplified and purely ceremonial version called gui. The Gui-and-Bi set here is from the Han dynasty (206 BC-220 AD).

Jade Ge, Warring States period (475-221 BC)

Jade scabbard slide, mid to late Western Han (ca 140 BC-8 AD).

Bronze sword with jade (that's all the sign says, clearly the jade guard is part of it, but possibly the scabbard slide underneath too, Late Warring States to Western Han (275 BC-8 AD).
Jade scabbard chape, Spring and Autumn period (770-476 BC)
Jade pommel, Western Han (206 BC-8 AD)

Chalcedony arrowheads, late neolithic (ca 5000-1800 BC)

Bronze sword, late Spring and Autumn to Warring States (570-376 BC).
Worth noting is that, like a lot of bronze swords from all over, these are small. More of a good dagger size by modern standards.

Another one.

Any crossbow triggers or swordstaffs?

>>64132521
Yes and no respectively.

Crossbow trigger mechanism and butt, no date given that I noticed.

>>64132537
"Aiming hole" is such a bad translation

Bronze sword blade, late Spring and Autumn to Warring States, mounted up with jade furniture during the Ming or Qing dynasty.

>>64132547
What a sacrilege...

>>64132550
I guess we'll just have to hope the original hilt had been lost, or was at least in horrendously poor condition.

Bronze sword with inlaid turquoise on the guard, late Spring and Autumn to Warring States. Also a bit of a decorative pattern to the blade itself, which from what I've understood is achieved by first casting most of it using bronze of one composition, and then casting on bits of bronze with a different composition. The use of that for decorative purposes likely followed from doing it for practical reasons, where a harder alloy was used for the edges and a tougher/cheaper (?) alloy for other bits.
Bronze sword, Warring States period (475-221 BC)

The inlay was probably a lot more impressive before all the verdigris made the rest of the sword blend in with it.

Ge, mid to late Warring States (375-221 BC)

Spearhead, either not mentioned or I missed the sign, but likely about the same age as the other items around here.

Ge with ferrule and finial. Warring States to early Western Han (475-141 BC)
I'd assume the ge and the ferrule where separate pieces, with the latter being slid down the shaft as reinforcement before the former was inserted. Though they're now also most liekly permanent oxidisation-welded together with the shaft having rotted away.

And here I noticed that the finial they're talking about probably wans't the small bird on top, but rather this thing, ie a solid butt for the other end of the shaft. Keeps the wood from splintering and whatnot, while also somewhat useful for splintering bone.

Spearhead, Warring States period (475-221 BC)

cool thread OP

Spear finial/butt, Warring States period (475-221 BC)

>>64132628
You're welcome.

Helmet, late Western Zhou to Spring and Autumn (877-476 BC).

Scabbard fittings, Upper Xiajiadian culture, late Western Zhou to Spring and Autumn (877-476 BC).

Sword, Upper Xiajiadian culture, late Western Zhou to Spring and Autumn (877-476 BC).

Sword, late Spring and Autumn to early Warring States (570-376 BC)
And yes, all these period names have turned into an orgy of copy-paste.

Sword, late Spring and Autumn to early Warring States (570-376 BC)
And yes, all these period names have turned into an orgy of copy-paste.

>>64132643
It should perhaps also be added that there's one or a few similar swords from Korea in the National Museum in Tokyo, fittingly the upper Xiajiadian culture was at home up around Manchuria.

Mace head, Warring States period (475-221 BC)
A pretty timeless design, not too dissimilar to stuff all the way over to high middle ages Europe.

Spearhead, Warring States period (475-221 BC)

Arrowheads, Spring and Autumn to Warring States (770-221 BC)

Knife, Spring and Autumn period (770-476 BC)

thanks brah. be sure to visit singapore sometime lah. we got fort siloso which'd be interesting i think!

Crossbow trigger mechanism, Western Han (206 BC-8 AD)

Ceremonial jade yue axe, late Spring and Autumn (570-476 BC).

>>64132667
That may definitively happen. If I'm lucky I'll get sent there on a work trip even(which would then be slightly extended), but sadly it's been dead quiet about that project for a while now.

Ge of "Anping Xiang Bang", Zhao state, Warring States period (403-222 BC).

Ge (a relatively rare socketed version by the looks of it) inscribed "Xuan liu", late Spring and Autumn (570-476 BC).

Excellent stuff OP

Crossbow trigger mechanism, state of (Cao) Wei, mark of the second year of the Taihe reign (228 AD).

Trigger mechanism, "Wei, Jin, Northern and Southern dynasties (220-589)".
And since we might be moving somewhat froward in time overall here I guess I'll just skip the "AD" for now in dates that are all just AD, using it only when we have a period that spans from BC to AD.

And one form the Western Han dynasty (206 BC-8 AD)

Partially gilded knife, Han dynasty.

Archer's ring, jade, late Spring and Autumn (570-476 BC).

Speaks for itself. I think this was the one and only ferrous weapon on display in the entire museum.

Ge, late Shang (1300-1046 BC)

Stone knife, late neolithic (ca 5000-1046 BC)

Jade spearheads, late neolithic to Shang period (ca 5000-1046 BC)

Jade yue, early Liangzhu culture, ca 3300-2600 BC
Perhaps worth noting is that jade, or at least nephritic jade (dunno about jadeite), slowly oxidizes when exposed to air. This will tend to pull it from the translucent greens towards opaque white and brownish tones. So while a lot of these old jade items are of less impressive visual appearance than modern day art pieces due to them using low-grade jade for tools that the art carvers of today wouldn't bother with, part of it is also that a few thousand years out of the ground has left its mark on them.

Stone yue with some ivory residue on the surface, Liangzhu culture (ca 3300-2300 BC)

Jade axe shaft butt, early to middle Liangzhu culture (ca 3300-2600 BC)

Jade knife blade, Qijia culture (2300-1600 BC)

Jade qi axe, with latter period decoration, Shandong Longshan culture (2300-1800 BC)

Jade tablet, tapering in thickness towards the size, suggesting it might be a huge, ceremonial blade. Qijia culture (2300-1600 BC). Engraved writing added much later, IIRC there was a sign about someone (IIRC an Emperor) having some of his writings engraved on a number of old jade pieces, but it seems I forgot to photograph that. Note that the museum does not bother to orient the tablet so the writing is right-side-up.

Ge, early to mid Shang (1600-1300 BC).

Ge with stylised dragon design, early Western Zhou (1046-977 BC)

Socketed ge, late Shang (1300-1046 BC).

Ge + top spike/blade makes a ji, often translated as "halberd". Probably best not to translate that really, ji works just fine. Early to middle Western Zhou (1046-878 BC).

Spearhead, mid to late Western Zhou (976-711 BC).

Axe head, late Shang to early Western Zhou (1300-977 BC).

Dagger/sword, late Western Zhou to early Spring and Autumn (877-671 BC).

Knife with mushroom shaped pommel. Late Shang (1300-1046 BC).

Bronze knife blade. These seem to follow the general idea of the long jade knife blades above, though with a shaft rings added on each end. Late Shang to early Western Zhou (1300-977 BC).

Another one.

Shaft-hole yue, late Shang to early Western Zhou (1300-977 BC).

Ceremonial jade ge, late Shang to early Western Zhou (1300-977 BC).

Ceremonial jade ge, late Shang to early Western Zhou (1300-977 BC).

Are these pictures yours? Either way thanks a lot, ancient Chinese stuff is always cool to see

Ceremonial bronze and jade ge, late Shang (1300-1046).

Yue, early Western Zhou (1046-977 BC)

>>64132848
>Are these pictures yours?
Yep, all fresh never-before-posted-online OC from a vacation trip I went on back in July.

Yue, early to mid Western Zhou (1046-878 BC)

Turquoise-inlaid yue, late Shang (1300-1046).

Jade arrowhead, likely made by cutting down a ge.

Finally a good thread

Jade archer's ring, late Shang to Western Zhou (1300-771 BC)

>>64132884
Shang period (1600-1046 BC)

Ge, Warring States period (5th-3rd century BC)

Ge and a pair of bag-shaped axe heads, Warring States period (5th-3rd century BC).

Dagger "with openwork coiling hui snake hilt", mid Spring and Autumn to Warring States (7th to 3rd century BC)

Spearhead, Warring States period (5th-3rd century BC)

Yue-style sword, Warring States period (5th-3rd century BC)

Ring-pommel dagger, Warring States period (5th-3rd century BC)
Double-ring pommel dagger, late Spring and Autumn to mid Warring States period (6th to 3rd century BC)

Ge, early Western Zhou period (11th to 1oth century BC)

Two yue, late Shang to early Western Zhou period (11th to 10th century BC)

Two yue, late Shang to early Western Zhou period (11th to 10th century BC)

A pair of late Shang knives with pommel rattles (13th-11th century BC)

Pi sword "of third year Dai-xiang". Warring states (5th-3rd century BC)

>>64132945
ching chong goo goo ga ga

GE, late Spring and Autumn (570-476 BC).

Sword, Warring States period (475-221 BC).

Ge of Marquis Chan of Cai, late Spring and Autumn (471-457 BC)

Also I found the info for >>64132533, it's late Warring States to Han (ca 3rd century BC)

Sword of king Zhou-Gou of Yue, early Warring States (448-441 BC)

Mao spearhead and...

...butt spike. Warring States (5th to 3rd century BC).

Ge, Warring States (5th to 3rd century BC).

And its associated butt.

Yue, late Shang (13th to 11th century BC).

Ge, late Shang (13th to 11th century BC).

Ge with dragon decor, early Western Zhou (11th-10th century BC).

Ge, early Western Zhou (11th-10th century BC).

Ge of Cheng-zhou, early Western Zhou (11th-9th century BC).

Including the photo might help...

Helmet, late Western Zhou to early Spring and Autumn period (ca 8th century BC).

Horse headgear, Western Zhou dynasty (11th century to 771 BC).

"The Eighteen Scholars of the Isle of Immortals", attributed to Qui Ying (ca 1494-1552), Ming Dynasty. Detail shot showing a few armed figures.

Cavalry figure, Northern Qi dynasty (550-577).

"Imperial Rites of Sericulture: Mulberry Picking", court artists Ding Guan-he, Jin Kun, Guiseppe Castiglione, and Cheng Liang. Qing dynasty (1644-1911). Detail shot showing guards outside.

Jade sword grip, Qing dynasty.

"New Treatise on Military Effectiveness", Qi Jiguang, Ming Dynasty. 1588 reprint.

(One of) "Diagrams of Infantry and Cavalry Drill Formations"

>>64133103
Was this the oldest piece of visual art at the museum? It looks pretty well preserved

"Military Records", He Zhongsheng, Ming dynasty, 1630 print.

"A-yu-shi with Lance and helmet", Guiseppe Castiglione, 18th century. If that sounds like a not so Chiense name it's because he was a Jesuit missionary who ended up also working as a painter for the Qing court.

And there's the image limit. A full zip archive of this and the images that there wasn't room for (next to nothing in the way of arms and armour, but a decent bit of jade and other treasures): https://www.mediafire.com/file/rvmr5uqyknmgti9/Taiwan_-_National_Palace_Musuem.zip/file

Photos form other places can be found in https://www.mediafire.com/folder/4v4c0uwexuyo7/My+Photographs

>>64133144
Well, the book I just posted is a lot older at least (1630, whereas Guiseppe there only showed up in Chian in 1715, meaning the painting can't be older than that). I didn't pay a lot of attention to paintings without any military connection, so I'm not sure what the oldest they had around might be.

...or is it. Another page from >>64133152 If it works I guess ht eimage limit is up to, what,, 175?
Though either way I'm basically out of relevant material to post now, so that'll be it. Though if some discussion ensures we'll have room for illustrations and whatnot.

Oh, I just noticed that it was 151 posts, not images. Oh well.

Jade (likely jadeite) seals of Emperor Gaozong of Qing.

>>64132369 (OP)
Cool thread op. Here are some photos of han stuff that I got from the korean national museum.

Found in a tomb of one of the han generals of the lelang commandery iirc

>>64133671
What's with the small rod around his groin? Did they have that shoved up his ass or something?

A KM thread is a good thread.

>>64132503
>late neolithic (ca 5000-1800 BC)
>typical Folsom points
>found in New Mexico
>...from 12.8k years ago
Fascinating.

Hey, cool thread KM. I was just there in December. Sadly, the meat shaped stone was on loan then as well. It is unironically my favorite artifact there lol.

>>64133681
It was customary to put jade on or in the dead at the time so it would not surprise me if that was the case. Emperors got their whole bodies covered in the stuff.

>>64132434
Throwing anus you mean

Hm, a polearm head in the lower left, next to the sword? Seem like something rather like a ji, but with the hook having shifted over to the opposite side of the edge.

>>64133671
Well, IIRC the rods on top of and besides his face would be nose and ear plugs so... yeah, the one lower down may have been a plug as well.

Here is some armor from one of the 3 kingdoms of korea i believe Silla. It was really cool to see how so much iron from ~1600-1700 years ago still survived.

>>64132436
>Jadeite cabbage
Did they bash enemies in the head with that thing or what?

Neat stuff thanks OP

>>64134258
Not that I know of, it's more the reason than the means for skull cracking.

OP what camera did you use?

>>64135018
Nikon Zf with a Tamron 24-70/2.8 G2 lens.

>>64132951
The Pi is a swordstaff though.

>>64133803
It's a Ji from the Han dynasty

Anything about the mountain pattern armour?

>>64136168
I am surprised its being held by that kind of lacing arrangement. It doesnt seem sturdy from a glance. How are these used?

>>64132436
>the other one being "the meat shaped stone" which was sadly on loan to elsewhere when I visited

Sad! what a bummer

>>64136492
>How are these used?
By peasants who lost 90% of their engagements.

>>64136492
Plenty of hooking and thrusts I'd ssupect, meaning the blade or tang that goes through the shaft can help a decent bit. Then again, it probably isn't for nothing that these are something for the bronze age and early iron age, after which we don't see this kind of attachment any more.

>>64136357
This single illustration seems to be the extent of it.
"Assembled Illustrations of the Three Realms of Heaven, Earth, and Man", Wang Qi, Ming Dynasty, 1609 imprint.
A work which we should probably be somewhat cautious about as taking completely literally.

>>64136760
Are you getting thes emixed up with war scythes, kama, or some such? Ge and ji were mass produced standard-issue infantry weapons in their days.

What significance does jade have in China and chinese history and symbology?
t. asian historylet

>>64137529
First and foremost it's simply a very precious material (today the highest grade jadeite commands prices per carat similar to the best amongst diamonds from what I've understood, and it seems top grade nephrite can be worth not its weight in gold, but perhaps five times that). So it doesn't just symbolise wealth (and the power that comes with wealth), it is wealth.
The museum also mentioned that the beureucrat-gentlemen-scholars that dominated much of China's history also noted its combination of a generally quite gentle outer appearance with also being hard and tough, a mix they found appealing.
And clearly it is to have been considered to be general good juju in terms of the mystical and magical, as per the various grave goods and funerary rites mentioned above.

good stuff, weird that the chinks made bronze swords so long

Cool thread, planning a Taiwan trip in a couple months from now. 2-3 weeks. From what I've seen most forts/aviation/military museums are in Kaohsiung and Kinmen so would it be worth to visit both for ~3 days each? Then maybe spend the other 2/3rds of the trip split between countryside and Taipei.

I remember seeing this news story about 2000 year old chinese tomb that had bronze dildos, strap-ons and buttplugs in it, and just how akward the state-sponsored professor was talking about their use. Because it was a man's tomb.

He went full "oh, they were just probably meant to hold in the chi, which was very important" and beating around the bush, clearly embarrassed. As if he had been told by the state to downplay it like this wasn't totally flaming gay man's ancient tomb, because ...you are not supposed to say things like that in China.

Much like all authoritarian governments, they have issues accepting that some people, maybe even their ancient ancestors, might be into gay stuff. Because that's not "manly".

>>64133681
>>64133758
Given he has plugs in his ears and nose too perhaps it was to keep embalming fluid inside the body?

>>64141220
>>64141220
could be. i can also imagine it to have a symbolic meaning. Asian texts talk about the nine orifices (nine gates), considering them sort of an interface between the person and the outside. so they might like to seal them after the death.
of course you'd need one more item in the crotch area to cover all of them

>>64132369 (OP)
>9 gorillion year old artifacts made out of modern materials
Implessive!

>>64140503
Sounds like a plan, though I'd probably look into the exact number of museums (etc) of interest in the "satellite" locations before distributing days.

>>64134316
Possession of the Jade Cabbage entitles the bearer to the Mandate of Heaven until such time as it passes.