Thread 64134534

When are we gonna move away from lead-made ammo as a society?

>>64134534 (OP)
never

>>64134534 (OP)
The lead in the air when we shoot isn't coming from the projectiles; it's coming from the primers, so switching from lead bullets to copper and steel like Europe and Asia are forcing their hunters to do will not stop the problem.

>>64134559
yeah i know, shits crazy

>>64134534 (OP)
you can greatly reduce lead exposure by going from a typical fmj with exposed lead bottom to whats called a total metal jacket encasing 100% of the lead core in the copper jacket

>>64134542
Not reading that
Tldr or don't post

>>64134559
Or you get retarded shit like California banning lead ammo even if you're just putting holes in paper.
We all know the condors can't resist the tasty lead lying free on the ground.

There are solutions for people who shoot enough to have this be a concern, but you will deal with mouth breathers who think you're worried about c*vid in the big 2025.

What about the heavy metals contained in gunsmoke, from the primer (and propellant, I think). Are those not a far more serious health hazard since you breathe them in? The lead encased by the bullet’s jacket doesn’t really have a way of getting inside you.

Anyways, banning lead ammo is a good thing because this will ignite a fire under the asses of ammo manufacturers, and they might finally figure out that all rifle bullets need to be VLDs, otherwise the BCs will be lol-tier. Once everyone is up to speed with my infinite wisdom, we can then go back to lead-core bullets with maximally high BCs. But apparently this transitional learning period is gonna have to be painful, and forced.

>>64134762
>operator beard
>respirator
If you've ever had a legally required formal fit test you'd know why this is retarded.

>>64134534 (OP)
Fuck ya
mudda

>>64134687
mobileposting should be b&

>>64135011
demons are literally drop kicking your faggot head rn

>>64134534 (OP)
we should just do like the military and start using depleted uranium instead of lead cause lead is so unsafe

>>64134534 (OP)
Depleted Uranium is the only viable solution of the growing lead poisoning problem, but Big Lead would never allow it.

>>64134534 (OP)
When are you going to stop playing stink finger with yourself?

>>64134534 (OP)
Lead poisoning turns you into a low-inhib chad doe.

>>64135057
There are some much less contentious materials like tungsten and bismuth.

>>64135163
What a terrible planet on which to be a firearms enthusiast. The ideal bullet is solid tungsten with a gold jacket around the bottom half. But those are some of the rarest metals in our crust, and it’s a PITA to make anything with tungsten.

And that’s just the stuff our anti-gun planet is composed of. We also have an atmosphere that slows bullets down (gay).

>>64134539
>this
Recyclable, melts easy, make it hard cast or soft, its heavy. Just shoot out doors, wash your hands, pick out any lead pieces you find in your kill.

>>64135199
>gold bottom half
You mean brass dipshit. Its also better to have a copper jacket. Otherwise just make a brass solid

>>64134534 (OP)
it is possible to use iron based ammo
lead shortages in WW2 meant that by the end of WW2, the standard round for the MG42 was essentially just a mild steel bullet wrapped in the thinnest lead jacket possible and
the round had to be slightly lengthened to accommodate the reduced density of iron vs lead, but it otherwise had identical properties to the lead round

no reason you couldnt keep using that today, but presumably the lower melting point of lead just makes it too cheap to produce

>>64135163
>>64135199(me)

Alright I couldn’t help but model this. Picrel is a 6 caliber long .204 bullet at 19.3g/cc. Check out the mass and BC.

I remember we had posters in the shitters while I was on a course warning us about lead poisoning.
It had a before,during and after handling lead section.
My favourite was the after handling lead.
>Avoid handling tobacco products
>Avoid handling food
>Avoid masturbation

>>64135209
No. Gold because it’s ductile, and is as dense as tungsten. Copper is about half the density of gold.

Maybe alloy it with copper and use a rose gold jacket, lmao.

>>64135224
Gold is way too soft. Watch that jacket peel away in pieces as soon as it leaves the barrel

>>64135217
dick skin is thin and vascular

>>64135232
>>64135224
>maybe an alloy
You mean BRASS

>>64135232
Is there nothing one could alloy gold with to produce a viable jacket material?

>>64135239
>8.5g/cc
Gross.

>>64135242
Sure. 14kt gold and below is mostly other metals. Zinc, palladium, copper, silver etc. Why, when brass is cheaper, stronger, and close to the same weight.

>>64135259
>why, when brass is cheaper?

My initial complaint was that the composition of earth’s crust is less than optimal for making moggy bullets. Ofcourse the other materials are cheaper - they are way more abundant.

>closer to the same weight
Admittedly, yeah the jacket is so thin that the density of whatever it’s made of hardly factors into the bullet’s total weight.

>>64135272
You want moggy? Go depleted uranium core, lead filler, with your 10kt gold jacket lmao

>>64134580
Just straight up not true. The lead isn't interfacing with the grooves at all

>>64134559
Copper ammo is supposed to be good for le environment, not the shooter
.308 copper slugs are a pretty mature technology at least and provide decent accuracy

>>64134580
Most of the lead if from primers, do you boomers know how to use ChatGPT ?

>>64135425
>Copper ammo is supposed to be good for le environment
Anon, copper is also not safe for living creatures to consume (part of the big push to get rid of lead ammo was that the birds were eating lead and dying) and it's also not safe for the soil (not a good idea to plant crops on top of copper). It has the exact same environmental hazards at a slower pace.

>>64134534 (OP)
Probably not as long as we use combustion technology for guns, because lead is just about the best material for making projectiles with.

>>64134559
Part of it. Another part of it is indoor shooting ranges just not being good for you at all.

>>64135328
Wrong, it doesn't need to interact with the rifling at all, projectiles with bare rears will increase lead particulate when firing compared to fully enclosed lead.

>>64135163
What a stupid fucking post.

>>64135213
Indoor shooting ranges would have fucking conniptions about that, which is yet another reason you should mostly avoid those.

>>64135832
What part of it is stupid, tungsten is pretty much DU in every aspect minus the radioactivity and heavy metal toxicity. DU is better for armor piercing but we are not hunting animals with steel plating.
Bismuth is nowhere near as dense but so is lead. Both lead and bismuth are pretty close and bismuth is non-toxic.

>>64135629
That's why I said supposed
It's actually aimed at killing gun ownership because there's no way I would ever be able to load copper slugs for my K31 for example

>>64135629
Your water probably comes in through copper pipes. Copper isn't perfect but let's be real here.

>>64134762
faggot shit, your bane-lookin-ass is gonna get laughed at at any range

>>64135629
Even the environmental effect of lead projectiles is massively overstated with birdshot being the biggest issue and that's already been mixed.
For bullets it's really only going to become a problem if a range is seeing military scale volumes of fire.

In California it was a convenient scapegoat to spare the corporations the consequences of their actions

>>64134539
Don't forget it's basically illegal to not use lead. Maybe change the laws back.
>>64134542
>>64134997
I'd smoke and eat with lead covered hands while reloading but only shoot outdoors. No issues. I think it primer fumes that are the most bioavailable.
>>64134559
Copper and steel aren't banned in Europe as armor piercing? Huh. Never let them know.

>>64136054
Tungsten is toxic and carcinogenic

>>64135629
Copper doesn't make you angry and retarded even at low levels of exposure though.

>>64136187
The original post was comparing tungsten with DU, which is relatively less toxic and non-radioactive, besides the fact that bismuth was mentioned as an alternative.

>>64136054
Tungsten is still a heavy metal.
Tungsten is a much harder material to work with.
Tungsten is much less common and much more expensive.

>>64136373
So is DU, can you read the context?
And none of you even considered the also mentioned bismuth, like you came here just to argue.

>>64136184
>Copper and steel aren't banned in Europe as armor piercing? Huh. Never let them know.
Mild steel bullets like surplus 7.62x39 are abundant here.
Most copper bullets here are made to mushroom so I doubt they have any sort of penetration. I do, however, know of a .30 copper hunting bullet my buddy complained about since it has insane penetration in flesh and basically no deformation. I wonder how it penetrates other materials

>>64136187
I eat tungsten corn flakes for breakfast and shit AP bullets. Im just built different bro.

>>64136184
copper bullets are fully legal.
You just can't make and sell anything with brass or a steel core in calibers arbitrarily considered pistol bullets.

>>64136513
Depending on the country some makers can sell them as "PCC bullets". Since you can buy bullets without any sort of loicence, there's no way for the cops to even do anything about it

>>64134534 (OP)
Real talk, i'm a bit worried about this, would pic related be enough to protect me? I already have a 3M mask lying around, but i'm not sure if the pink filters are good enough or if i need smth else.

>>64134534 (OP)
Until we discover a cheap, functional alternative to lead azide primers, we're stuck with it

>>64136678
Someone should make a 3-in-1 PPE piece of gear for shooting guns. Hearing protection, respiratory protection, and eye protection (or nods). Something optimized, lightweight, and comfy.

It’s kinda wild that we figured out how to split the atom and go to the moon and fit a supercomputer into your palm but we haven’t yet figured out a way to prevent guns from deafening their users or killing them via heavy metal poisoning. Cans come close, but if you still need hearing protection, it doesn’t count.

CAPTCHA: WWVAG
Heh, vag.

>>64136164
>weak to social pressure

>>64136694
Idk, i prefer the modularity of separate sight, hearing, and breathing protection. If any one fails i dont lose the rest, i can easily replace or forgo them

Whata wierd leftypol antigun bullshit hypocondriac thread
I guess they got bored of shilling for that mass muderer putin and reverted to their true anti gun form

>>64136723
>illiterate schizo
"lead gasses are bad for you" is not a political stance, you dumb fucking nigger

>>64136723
They've been doing this concern trolling routine too and some chicken littles get freaked out and internalize it

>>64135328
yeah no shit that the bottom of the bullet doesn't engage the rifling lmao
you forgot that base of the bullet is facing enormous pressure and heat from igniting powder

>>64136723
maga nigger tier of unterstanding any issue

>>64134534 (OP)
>society
Kys

>>64134542
Qrd not reading all that shit.

>>64136449
Today I learned.
I thought cooper solids in any pistol caliber (redefined as any rifle rounds fired or convertible into a pistol) was illegal. Basically everything because there's a pistol ar or ak that shoots it or a conversion.
>>64136513
Today I learned. See above.
Also thought there was a manufacturer license to make bullets, thanks to Biden being gay.
I've thought of getting a CNC lathe and turning copper or brass solids.
Make them ribeds for her pleasure

>>64136694
>It’s kinda wild that we figured out how to split the atom and go to the moon and fit a supercomputer into your palm but we haven’t yet figured out a way to prevent guns from deafening their users or killing them via heavy metal poisoning.
The solutions exist, but aren't widespread because the hobby is full of boomers that take pride in destroying their body because it makes them feel tough.

>>64136694
>we haven’t yet figured out a way to prevent guns from deafening their users or killing them via heavy metal poisoning
Earpros exist. Respirators exist.

That being said i'm treated like a tinfoil-hat wearing schizo for wearing a respirator in an indoor range. And this is coming from people who literally have had lead poisoning treatment done to them (btw they take your blood, clean it, then reinject you with it, pretty painful and uncomfortable procedure, and you gotta do it weekly for months). It somehow makes them feel macho, idk.

>>64134534 (OP)
The projectiles do not cause lead poisoning. Primer fumes are the primary source.

>>64136723
What is this attitude
>Sig makes a gun that fires on its own
>ANTI GUN AGENDA ITS FINE
>Primers are toxic and could use a revision
>ANTI GUN AGENDA!!!!!!!!!

>>64138395
I wonder if any ranges might straight up ask you to leave for "being weird" and "scaring off" the costumers. If people see you wearing that they might start asking questions

>>64138395
It's also an indisputable fact that lead exposure makes you dumber and angrier, it probably creates a feedback loop.

>>64135199
...and gravity that makes our bullets fall out of the sky eventually.

>>64137577
>>64134687
tl;dr Dude got lead poisoning due to shooting and hand loading. Took measures to reduce lead exposure and that worked for a while but now his lead levels are back up.

>>64136100
It actually comes in through PVC pipes because the niggers kept stealing my copper pipes. That being said everything I said is true, as a farmer you gotta make sure there's no copper below the crops.

>>64136184
>Copper and steel aren't banned in Europe as armor piercing? Huh. Never let them know.
Level IV plates defeat both of those components; you have to use tungsten-core for AP now. Fully tungsten rounds like the other guy recommended would not be good for barrels.

>>64134542
>>64138547
One of the problems with the lead blood levels is that it doesn't represent elsewhere in your body. The lead will get into your bones and stay there for much much longer than your blood.

>>64134534 (OP)
>shoot in indoor range
>walking to the back to reset steel targets
>mfw inhaling all that lead dust
I should really bring a kn95 mask for that

>>64139689
If you're walking onto the range you probably want some range shoes you can swap into and out of, otherwise you're bringing all the lead dust you stepped in home with you.

>>64138544
I hate this universe so much. Somewhere out there there is a universe with different physical laws and constants, and in that one, there is no such as gravity or an atmosphere or natural resource scarcity, where we can have cool guns and be free.

>>64138395
>respirator at an indoor range
I don’t think you’re schizo anon. That’s a reasonable thing to do.

>>64139692
ohh never thought about that. range shoes sounds like a good idea
next time i go to medic i'll request a blood check for lead

>>64139689
A paper mask won't do anything against lead; you should bring a respirator, bring a change of clothes to the range, and lastly, only use outdoor ranges.

>>64134534 (OP)
as long as you don't exclusively shoot high volume indoors and wash your hands, you should be fine

>>64138395
>That being said i'm treated like a tinfoil-hat wearing schizo for wearing a respirator in an indoor range
People would make fun of me and call me Darth Vader for wearing a SOTR indoors, but when I got my blood levels tested I was still at undetectable.
>>64139704
You could also clean off the shoes you already own and wear slip on covers at the range, but that might draw more attention than buying a new pair of shoes to wear every day and using your old shoes as range shoes.

>>64134534 (OP)
Don't touch my delicious lead
freshly loaded .38 wadcutta

>>64134534 (OP)
Realistically how much do you actually need to shoot at an outdoor range for lead poisoning to be a concern?

>>64138544
All bullets fall at exactly the same speed.

>>64136054
Tungsten is not less dangerous than DU. They're equally toxic as heavy metals, DU is technically radioactive but it's just beta decay, it can be shielded by just a thin copper plating. A soldier's radiation exposure wouldn't be any higher than people living in locations like New England and the Midwest that have relatively high natural radon concentrations.

>>64140250
> All bullets fall at exactly the same speed

NTA. But our beef is with gravitation, so if there was none, the bullet wouldn’t fall at all. Or if gravity was just the right strength, I’d shoot parallel with the ground and set the bullet in orbit around the earth.

We’re bitching about laws of physics, just leave us be.

Nothing wrong with going to the range looking like Hunk. And if you shot that much you're a regular so.

>>64135163
tungsten and bismuth are also both toxic. so is copper. realistically lead is basically the perfect material for a bullet so there won't be widescale adoption of something else. Battery technology for DEWs or man portable railguns isn't there and probably won't ever be with our current understanding of physics.

>>64139802
not as much as you'd think depending on what you're shooting. blackpowder people and people who shoot dirty catpiss russian shit are getting a lot of lead exposure.
after doing my research, I shoot a lot less. I only do enough basic drilling to maintain accuracy with my primary rifle/sidearm and when i shoot for pleasure it's mostly service rifle distance shooting with bolt actions at range events.

Honestly it seems like a lot of the advice people in the model building hobby have for avoiding inhalants like paint fumes and resin dust are applicable to firearms. I wonder if putting a a vent hood above each shooting station would help for lead exposure at indoor ramges. I never in my life ever considered that I could get lead poisoning just from going shooting.

>>64134534 (OP)
Probably not till we figure out how to make a self lubricating dense polymer that’s cheaper per pound than lead…. If you figure that out (bonus points if you can manipulate the hardness) you’ll probably replace most ammo within a couple of years…. Lead works because it’s the cheapest option for its performance…. Beat the price and you’ll change the market fast

>>64140519
A ventilation hood is probably unnecessary, a good indoor range should have an HVAC system installed to help move the dust away from you as you shoot and bring in cleaner air so the room doesn't fill with smoke. People who go to a properly filtered range will have a better longterm outlook compared to ranges that don't utilize a filtration system.

Never. NRA would call it woke

Even completely wiping the ammo with d-lead wipes still turns the test swab red when touching them. I'm losing my mind.
>>64140783
Let go dude.

>>64140783
Kamala based?

>>64140882
why are you wiping your ammo

>>64134534 (OP)
yet there is a noticeable lack of concern about lead sinkers, which gets tangled on a log and lost in a body of water more often than not.

>>64140908
Your boolets will kill harder if they're squeaky clean.

Lead is inexpensive, soft and does not damage rifling, has a low melting point making it very cheap to manufacture from, and most importly is very dense creating the best ballistic coefficient of any material that doesn't cost several times more.


Most inexpensive alternatives have been outlawed as armor piercing handgun ammo, even if rifle ammo. You can't legaly coat some iron in polymer for example.

Tungsten is very hard, damages rifling as anything other than shot or a core that would be banned as armor piercing, and rapidly wears any tools used to work it making manufacture expensive. And is toxic.
Bismuth is rare, expensive, and mainly is mined as a small byproduct of lead mining. So you have to mine tons of lead to even get small amounts.

Copper has a much worse BC requiring you use lighter projectiles for a given caliber that retain energy worse.
Copper also absolutely destroys trees. You drive a copper nail into a tree to kill it.
Copper bullets hitting trees (and copper jackets for that matter) just killed that tree.

Lead primers have also proven long term stable for decades. Most green alternatives have not. Do you want your stockpiled ammo or several year old defensive rounds to go boom when you need it? Im sure many that don't like you having guns wish all your ammo regularly expired too.

Unless you breathe the fumes casting bullets in poor ventilation, or shoot insane amounts like some sponsored professional, lead shouldn't build up in you.

>>64140959
Then how about bismuth other than cost? Dense and soft, can be melted on stovetop while being non-toxic.

>>64140987

Other than cost and the fact that is is mainly produced by mining lead?

Well there is also the fact that it is rare and if you think cost is bad already if you increase demand a lot it will rapidly become many times more expensive since you cannot scale up production.

>>64140250
>DU is technically radioactive but it's just beta decay
Wrong, it's alpha decay, very easily stopped (even a sheet of paper) but it is the most damaging type when inside of your body, like dust inhalation.

>>64141027
It only creates dust when it impacts armor, in which case it's less dangerous than a live person shooting back at you.

>>64134534 (OP)
honestly, how much lead is even there to make so much munition? do the used up shrapnels, bullets, etc., get recycled?

>>64141095
>do the used up shrapnels, bullets, etc., get recycled?
at ranges, they definitely are
in war time? it was probably occasionally done, but it isnt SOP since crawling around a battlefield looking for bullets is a lot of effort for little reward
and the bullets would need to be cleaned of contaminants before being melted down which is just a lot of work

>>64135217
Damm, there goes my evening

>>64134559
>so switching from lead bullets to copper and steel like Europe and Asia are forcing their hunters to do will not stop the problem.
1. That's not the issue that's trying to solve.
2. Use lead-free primers, you retard.

>>64134534 (OP)
> Green gay bullshit ARARARUHUGAH DA LED IS POISIONING
Fuck off kike.

Lead is a necessary supplement for humans you need it be violent, stupid and quick to aggression.
If you aren't you'll just get stepped over

>>64142866
Found the lead breather lol

Anyway good thread. Wouldn't the "perfect" costless bullet (at least for hunting/soft tissue damage) be a gold hollow point in a copper jacket, possibly with some third in-between "cup" components to keep the bullet intact as it's fired? Kind of a fun thought exercise.

>>64143346
Yeah, gold would be an ideal substitute for lead in almost every way. It's the scarcity and cost that make it an issue. We need that real lead into gold alchemy to make better ammunition.

If I could make the perfect ammunition, it would be a tungsten penetrator core in a gold main body with a copper jacket. We keep the brass case. In the current economy and state of industry, it would be insanely expensive.

>>64139718
I have .455 Webley rounds that need cranking out but I don't have the gun itself yet

>>64139663
and when you're old and the bones start breaking down the lead will get released back into your blood