← Home ← Back to /k/

Thread 64151808

72 posts 26 images /k/
Anonymous No.64151808 >>64151826 >>64151843 >>64151865 >>64151988 >>64152363 >>64152466 >>64153285 >>64153349 >>64153639 >>64154804
Why does the Maginot Line get such a bad rep? It did exactly what it was intended to do - force the Germans to attack France through a narrow funnel from the north where French forces could be concentrated to stop them. It was a sound use of France's limited manpower, allowing a long front to be held with relatively few men and buying time for full mobilisation to be achieved. As it happened the Germans attacked through the Ardennes instead, which was believed to be too difficult for large scale troop movements but that did not invalidate the Maginot line.
Anonymous No.64151826 >>64151848 >>64151865
>>64151808 (OP)
Not being able to build the thing on Belgiums border should have been the first warning sign that it wasnt a good option
Anonymous No.64151843 >>64151848 >>64152429 >>64154842
>>64151808 (OP)
France did not plan to funnel the enemy through Belgium and into a small compact battlefield. The Maginot line was their intended line of defense. they really should have built it across the Belgian border as well.
Anonymous No.64151848
>>64151826
>>64151843

hivemind
Anonymous No.64151865
>>64151826
they did build on the blegian border doughbit

>>64151808 (OP)
maginot line was pretty mid - all these graphics that you see here postet from time to time are 90% made up propaganda
german Westwall achieved similar effect at a fraction of the cost
Anonymous No.64151988
>>64151808 (OP)
People are stupid. It's like when they ask
>what good is a minefield if you mark it and it doesn't kill any soliders?
Anonymous No.64152108 >>64153908 >>64154853
The Maginot worked fine.
Anonymous No.64152363 >>64152417 >>64152514 >>64152805 >>64153441
>>64151808 (OP)

Would the Magniot Line have even stopped the Germans if they had opted to simply punch right through it rather than go through Belgium (again)? Say the United States abruptly threatened to declare war on Germany if they violated Belgian/Dutch neutrality, so Hitler decides that Case Yellow needs to be rewritten and they'll have to go through Maginot.

I realize it would have been a very bloody affair for the Germans, but given that the Stalin Line and the Molotov Line were both overrun in mere days and later the Atlantic Wall was successfully breached in a single day, I kinda have my doubts that Maginot would have faired all that much better.

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single instance where fixed fortifications actually succeeded in stopping an attacking mechanized army during a strategic level offensive. Even in Ukraine, the initial Russian advances were blunted more to overextension and local counter-attacks than any major Ukrainian fortifications.
Anonymous No.64152417 >>64152455 >>64152514
>>64152363
>they had opted to simply punch right through it rather than go through Belgium (again)?
They didn't go through Belgium, that's the problem. They went through the Ardennes which the French had told the British and Belgians was 'impassable' because 'no way armored vehicles could move through it' so they put reservists and old guys there to 'defend it'. Then, when the Germans punched through the French told the British who were going 'We should do something about that or we're fucked' that it was a 'diversion' and even when they were building bridges over the rivers, the French said the 'main thrust' was still coming through Belgium. This meant that the French didn't bomb the bridges (and the RAF were under joint command at this point) and by the time they DID attack it was too late. Then the French blamed 5th Columnists for the reason they were being raped. Additionally, Hitler told them to stop the push but the general ignored Hitler and pushed on which lead to Dunkirk. The French still had millions of men elsewhere in the country but thought that itwould be like the ol' days, give a bit of land, start again in a few years. So ordered mass surrenders. But that didn't happen. As for the Magniot line, it was undermanned and undersupplied and not finished. It was bypassed as well.
Anonymous No.64152429
>>64151843
They absolutely did. Every french war plan against Germany expected them to move into Belgium and meet the german main thrust there, because the mere existence of the Maginot Line would force the Germans into trying Schlieffen 2.0.
Anonymous No.64152455 >>64152485
>>64152417

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Ardennes mainly in Belgium?
Anonymous No.64152466
>>64151808 (OP)
>Why
idiots who take a funny meme for gospel
Anonymous No.64152485 >>64152508
>>64152455
It is but most of the thrust went through Luxembourg.
Anonymous No.64152508 >>64154044
>>64152485
The bulk of the German army went through there but the battle for france was won around Sedan when Kleist raped the French 9th army into dust and then hooked towards the channel coast, isolating the BEF and two french armies.
Anonymous No.64152514 >>64152523 >>64152631 >>64156482
>>64152363
Very likely. Sure, they might be able to break through it eventually, but never quickly enough to not be met with french reserves meeting them in a counteroffensive.

The Stalin Line was never fully finished and essentially abandoned in favour of the Molotov Line, and even in its planned state would've been a good deal less impressive than the Maginot. And the Molotov Line had barely begun construction and was unmanned for large parts of it when the Wehrmacht overran it.

The Atlantic Wall was far more thinly spread, and subject to overwhelming aerial and naval fire superiority.

>

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single instance where fixed fortifications actually succeeded in stopping an attacking mechanized army during a strategic level offensive.
Kursk. Also, as for your example: The Russians having to go around strongpoints of resistance was a huge contributor to them getting overextended and becoming vulnerable to local counterattack.

>>64152417
1. The Ardennes are par tof Belgium.
2. The French didn't have to "tell" anyone, the Ardennes being impassable to a fast, massed motorised push was the general military wisdom basically everyone agreed upon at the time. Even the relatively thin belgian and french present there was expected to be able to delay any attempt for long enough, because the natural bottlenecks of the terrain would've meant that even just basic ambushes, barricades and the odd mine would slow the attacker to a crawl and force them to bring up their artillery to break through.

What they had overlooked was the the krauts were able to substitute that artillery with massed airpower and precision divebombing. Notably, when the krauts tried doing it again four years later in the same place without that advantage, it pretty much went EXACTLY as the French, British and Belgians had predicted it'd go in 1940.
Anonymous No.64152523
>>64152514
Atlantic wall did work in some respects. The fortifications around various ports held out for a very long time and really fucked over allied logistics in a huge way.
Anonymous No.64152631 >>64152682
>>64152514
>Kursk

The fixed fortifications definitely slowed the Germans down, but it was ultimately Soviet counter-attacks and the landings at Sicily that prevented any breakthrough.
Anonymous No.64152682 >>64153652 >>64153664
>>64152631
So in other words, the fortifications stopped it in exactly the way fixed fortification lines stop an offensive: By soakign up its moment, causing it to stall and then render it vulnerable to counterattack.

>muh Sicily
Literally irrelevant, as there were no meaningful transfers from Kursk until well after the offensive had been called off as a failure.
Anonymous No.64152805 >>64153191 >>64153312
>>64152363
>Say the United States abruptly threatened to declare war on Germany if they violated Belgian/Dutch neutrality, so Hitler decides that Case Yellow needs to be rewritten
The US Army in 1939 was laughable.
Anonymous No.64153191 >>64153217 >>64153228 >>64153261 >>64153421
>>64152805
>The US Army in 1939 was laughable.
Retard alert. why'd you think Japan never invaded?
Anonymous No.64153217 >>64153222
>>64153191
The US Navy (also being tied up badly enough already in asia)
Anonymous No.64153222 >>64153248
>>64153217
Shows how much you know, how else were the Germans able to bomb Pearl Harbor?
Anonymous No.64153228 >>64153248
>>64153191
US Navy and their own logistics couldn't handle it.
Anonymous No.64153248
>>64153228
see >>64153222
Anonymous No.64153261 >>64153281
>>64153191
the US army had about 200k men in uniform
the Belgians meanwhile had 600k in uniform by the time the invasion happened
the US could absolutely muster a massive army as WWI proved but it didn't maintain a strong standing army until after Korea desu.
Anonymous No.64153281 >>64153293 >>64153371 >>64153381 >>64156500 >>64156521
>>64153261
If what you're saying is true, and it's not. Then actually answer my question: Why didn't Japan invade?
Anonymous No.64153285
>>64151808 (OP)
Because the French his behind it while Germany concentrated it's forces against Poland when France could have sent out the cavalry and stopped the war 2-3 years earlier by capturing Germany's industrial heartland which was mostly unguarded.
This is why everyone considers the French to be retarded pussies.
Anonymous No.64153293 >>64153294
>>64153281
Because a dere is a rifle behind a every burade of gurassu
Invading a vastly larger country like the USA wouldn't have been like raping and pillaging the Chinese countryside, the USA would have fought back with rifles.
Anonymous No.64153294 >>64153305
>>64153293
Boom, so you admit I'm right when I said
>Say the United States abruptly threatened to declare war on Germany if they violated Belgian/Dutch neutrality, so Hitler decides that Case Yellow needs to be rewritten
Anonymous No.64153305 >>64153314
>>64153294
I always thought it was because the German U boats were attacking our ships.
Germany should have waited until he could make fri nds with an American president.
Anonymous No.64153312 >>64153325
>>64152805

I trying to come up with reasons why Germany wouldn't invade Belgium and that was the first one that popped into my head. I figure even if the US Military was a shitshow in 1940, even Hitler would have been wary of provoking America directly when he was basically fighting alone at that point (the Tripartite Pact wasn't signed until September of that year so Italy and Japan would have had no obligation to join him)
Anonymous No.64153314 >>64153322
>>64153305
Those were the Italians, haven't you ever read a history book?
Anonymous No.64153322 >>64153332 >>64154865
>>64153314
Yeah I have that's why I know it was the Germans and not the Italians.
Anonymous No.64153325 >>64153332 >>64153419
>>64153312
Our military was laughable after WW1, and the American people had no appetite for war. I remember reading we only had a small standing army with virtually no tanks or aircraft.
Anonymous No.64153332
>>64153322
The Germans were too busy bombing Pearl Harbor

>>64153325
Lol, then why didn't Japan invade? Fucking retarded Europoors
Anonymous No.64153340
people forget that the Maginot line was as much a political as a military structure.
the man it was named after: AndrΓ© Maginot was a politician not a military planner.
France had a very bitterly divided political landscape between the right and the left. the left whom formed most of the governments in the interbellum distrusted the army because the officer corps and the professional soldier leaned right. the officers where advocating for a fully professional highly mechanized army. but the left though that this would just lead to coups so it favored keeping conscription. if the officers can't trust their conscript men to side with them then they can't stage a coup.
but you they did have to increase their defenses against germany. so a fort line along the border wasn't such a bad idea considering that the better idea(s) where of the table politically. it didn't hurt that building them was also a major jobs program and stimulus for French industry after the great depression
it achieved it's political goal splendidly in that it kept the conscript army and there was no coup attempt
even militarily the idea of funneling the Germans up north wasn't bad per say. it would have kept the fighting off French soil and limited the front considerably allowing the French to limit the Germans numerical advantage
historically it was pretty close, hadn't the Germans found the chink in the French line or had the French been able to to counter attack faster it would have turned out quite differently
arguably it's the anglo-french alliance extending their line up into the Netherlands that did them in. their best most mobile units where to far up north to respond to the breach at Sedan.in the plans from before the extension there was a reserve not far from where the break trough happened. so a much faster more decisive counter attack would have plugged the hole leaving the Germans to grind their way trough Belgium
Anonymous No.64153349
>>64151808 (OP)
Germans actually broke through it with flame throwers and sachels so no, it didn't do what it was supposed to you lying sack of OP schiesse.
Anonymous No.64153371 >>64153375
>>64153281
a) the IJA was already fighting a land war in china and keep a massive reserve in Manchuria due to the soviets
b) the IJN and IJA has to secure the resources it needed in south east asia
c) the Pacific is very fucking big and it makes logistics very fucking hard
d) the IJN didn't have the man power to commit to a full invasion and didn't want the IJA on it's ships
e) the IJA was sure that winning china was much more important and they didn't want to get on the IJN's ships
f) the japanese did invade the US in Alaska
Anonymous No.64153375 >>64153397
>>64153371
>IJN didn't have the man power to commit to a full invasion
Because the US Army was the largest in the world, lmao you're so retarded anon
Anonymous No.64153381
>>64153281
Because they had no interest in the US. They were trying to get china and south east asia.
Anonymous No.64153397 >>64153406
>>64153375
>Because the US Army was the largest in the world
In 1939, estimates of the Army's strength ranged between 174,000 and 200,000 soldiers, smaller than that of Portugal's, which ranked it 17th or 19th in the world in size. General George C. Marshall became Army chief of staff in September 1939 and set about expanding and modernizing the Army in preparation for war.[40][41]
the Germans had twice as many people just in their medical service
the battle for France involved over 7 million men
the US's contribution would have been less than a third of the Dutch or Belgian contribution
Anonymous No.64153406
>>64153397
>It's a Europoors trying to claim they were relevant
Lol. You lost until we decided to get involved. Stupid fuckers would all be speaking Spanish if it weren't for us.

The next word out of your mouth should be: Thank You America for saving us once again
Anonymous No.64153419 >>64153561
>>64153325
>Our military was laughable after WW1, and the American people had no appetite for war. I remember reading we only had a small standing army with virtually no tanks or aircraft.

You read (partly) wrong. Public attitude towards Nazi Germany rapidly soured after September, 1939 and the percentage of the population who wanted America to just unilaterally intervene was approaching 50% by the time of Pearl Harbor.

Also American rearmament was already underway by 1938. Projects like the P-40, B-17, M-series tanks, and the Essex-class were in development or even production by the time of the German invasion of Poland.
Anonymous No.64153421 >>64153443
>>64153191
They were already bogged sown in an enormous war in China and everything else was a sideshow? The fact that America was literally thousands of miles away and is vast and had a large navy? The fact that invading America was not their goal, just to keep America off their lawn?
Anonymous No.64153441
>>64152363
>Would the Magniot Line have even stopped the Germans if they had opted to simply punch right through it rather than go through Belgium
Yes
Anonymous No.64153443 >>64153457
>>64153421
>had a large navy
>Forgetting the Germans bombed it at Pearl harbor
LMAO retard
Anonymous No.64153457 >>64153462 >>64153635
>>64153443
>Germans bombed Pearl Harbor

This is news to me.
Anonymous No.64153462 >>64153631
>>64153457
this bait for you
Anonymous No.64153561 >>64153582
>>64153419
We had a smaller army than Portugal did before WW2
It was because we had no money and Americans didn't want to be part of the deuce.
Anonymous No.64153582
>>64153561
>we had no money
The Yuropoor seethe continues
Anonymous No.64153631
>>64153462
Maybe he is from a different timeline?
Anonymous No.64153635 >>64153714
>>64153457
Forget it. He's on a roll.
Anonymous No.64153639
>>64151808 (OP)
>Why does the Maginot Line get such a bad rep?
Because the French bragged that it couldn't be breached
The germans defeated it by not attacking it and pushing through the ardennes

>but it did what it was supposed to
Thats irrelevant to the general public
Given how much hype surrounded the maginot line pre-war and the speed at which the germans beat france, it was extremely easy for the general public to be told that the maginot line failed as an easy answer rather than explaining that the French brass really was that slow to react
Anonymous No.64153652 >>64153901
>>64152682
>Literally irrelevant
Hitler called it off because of Sicily. That's why in your own words

>there were no meaningful transfers from Kursk until well after the offensive had been called off as a failure.

Hitler decided it couldn't go on any longer due to Sicily. So it was declared a failure, then troops were moved.
Anonymous No.64153664 >>64153901
>>64152682
Kursk had a totally different concept of the role that fixed defenses would play compared to what the maginot line had

Fixed defenses at kursk were cheap, temporary, and ultimately secondary to the mobile elements
They were just a supporting element while tanks, infantry, and artillery did the real work

The maginot line was extensive, expensive, and intended to be the primary defense against germany
The army was a supporting element to the line rather than the other way around
Anonymous No.64153714
>>64153635
Fucking finally
Anonymous No.64153841
At Kursk, even if the Germans succeeded in breaking through the salient as planned, a reserve force the size of an front was positioned to attack them from the flank.
Anonymous No.64153901 >>64153924
>>64153652
So Hitler was a time traveller then, given the offensive effectively ended before the Sicily landings? Prokhorovka was the last attempt with everything that was left in any shape to continue the attack, and that had failed by the time Hitler made his call. Zitadelle was declared a failure because it inarguably was one by that point and there was no sense in throwing good money after bad, no matter what was happening in Sicily.

>>64153664
Not really. Both the soviet defenses at Kursk and the Maginot followed the exact same concept in terms of how to repulse attempts to break through them: Slow down the enemy, stall out their momentum and attrit them down, while reserves are brought into place to counterattack. The Maginot was just ALSO built up to such a degree that it effectively served as a deterrent that would channel the entire strategic direction of the enemy away from it. It was in fact NOT meant to nbe the primary defense against Germany: It's primary strategic role was to allow economisation of manpower along the front it covered and to channel the German's primary offenisve direction into Belgium, where it could then be met by the majority of the French and British armies. In other words, it was to provide strategic support to the army, with said army then being tasked to go on to carry out the main of the fighting and achieve victory in Belgium.
Anonymous No.64153908
>>64152108
99% sure that footage is from after the Fall of France.
Anonymous No.64153924
>>64153901
>Both the soviet defenses at Kursk and the Maginot followed the exact same concept in terms of how to repulse attempts to break through them
Soviet defenses were cheap, expendable, and temporary
The defenses were tactical in nature

The maginot line was an extraordonarily large and permanent
It was strategic in nature, with national defense being centered around them

You cant compare a smattering of trenches intended to be abandoned for another trench to giant concrete blockhouses
Anonymous No.64154044
It made sense from the lessons of WW1. Especially the effectiveness of Belgian forts in the opening hours that basically single handedly derailed the operational timeline of Kaiser Bill's great willy waggle before it even started and delaying the Germans long enough for British and French forces to meet them at the Marne. Also Fort Vaux where a small garrison of old men, cripples and assorted ragtags managed to hold up the entire german advance in their sector for 6 days until they ran out of water.

>>64152508

The French really catch a break around Sedan.
Anonymous No.64154804
>>64151808 (OP)
>Why does the Maginot Line get such a bad rep?
Because history is written with a pop audience in mind and books with "blunder" or "disaster" in the subtitle sell better.
Anonymous No.64154842 >>64154859
>>64151843
>France did not plan to funnel the enemy through Belgium and into a small compact battlefield.
Plan Dyle was literally the opposite of what you just said. It formed the basis of all French strategic planning between 1920 and 1940, and by god, the Germans' plans were almost what the French had predicted right up until February/March 1940 when the OKW threw their 20 years' worth of planning in the trash can and started almost from scratch.
Anonymous No.64154853
>>64152108
>towed gun
>towed by horses, btw
>in the middle of a field, completely exposed, no cover, no concealment
>firing over open sights
>against a concrete bunker
>with a cameraman standing right behind them calmly filming everything
Bro, if you think that's combat footage...
Anonymous No.64154859 >>64154869
>>64154842
>until February/March 1940 when the OKW threw their 20 years' worth of planning in the trash can and started almost from scratch.
Because they had handed the plans to their enemies on a silver platter.
Anonymous No.64154865 >>64154919
>>64153322
>Italians
>Do something
I wish I lived in your timeline.
Anonymous No.64154869
>>64154859

also if I remember correctly disgraced former King Edward VIII was the one who told the germans the plan was leaked.
Anonymous No.64154919
>>64154865
They started a war with Greece they couldn't win.
Anonymous No.64156482
>>64152514
>Come to think of it, I can't think of a single instance where fixed fortifications actually succeeded in stopping an attacking mechanized army during a strategic level offensive.
Well, the Siegfried Line campaign was never 'won', it just got called off after the Battle of the Bulge started. But it wasn't exactly going well (after 3+ months and a quarter of million Allied casualties, the end goal of crossing the Rhine was still a looong way away). We lost over 30,000 men killed, wounded, or captured trying to take a 54 square mile patch of forest (which wouldn't be completely cleared until February the following year). If that's not "stopped", it's awfully damned close.
Anonymous No.64156500 >>64156674
>>64153281
>Why didn't Japan invade?
You know all those ships the Japanese sunk on December 7th, 1941? Well, in 1940 they were still on top of the water.
Anonymous No.64156521
>>64153281
>and it's not.
Anonymous No.64156674
>>64156500
>the Japanese sunk on December 7th, 1941?
Germans, you retard