Thread 64152256

Were there ever units made specificaly to counter armored knights like there were greatswords wielding guys to kill Pike cowards?

>>64152256 (OP)
War wagon.

The Amalgovars of Portugal specialized in drawing armored knights into swamps and putting them out of their misery.

Pikemen can do a decent job at it, though they weren’t specifically for that. Pistoleers/cuirassiers are what got the "knight" off the battlefield, but again not really by being a specific counter but rather by being a knight who's upgraded from lance to pistols.

>like there were greatswords wielding guys to kill Pike cowards?
Internet hearsay. We have historical sources talking about what two handed swords are good for. I've yet to see any of them mention sweeping aside pikes.
I'm not sure if anything on the medieval or early renaissance battlefield was there as a specific counter to this or that one thing. Various siege engines and weapons would be a specific counter to castles and fortresses I guess, but that's probably as close as you'll get.

>>64152263
Also protects you against both missile fire and infantry attacks. It's just a mobile fortification all said and done. That they mostly racked up a good track record against knights in the Hussite wars is simply because it was mostly knights who attacked them. Or at least in the fights that have been written down and remembered.

There's armor-penetrating weapons but pretty much anyone could use them. Many kinds of polearms had anti-armor features.

Bodkin arrows penetrated chain mail better than broadhead arrows - plate armor, not so much. But it is a dedicated armor piercing piece of equipment. Crossbows were always dangerous.

At later eras, men at arms formed the core of many militaries. For practical purposes, they're knights without a royal title. You had tons of armored people fighting armored people. I guess that counts?

>>64152313
Why didn't they simply not walk into the swamp?

>>64154224
Well, is it called portugal or Amalgovaria today?
>>64152256 (OP)
Those are called other knights. knights usuallly functioned in retinues, so you had a heavy guy plus varying degrees of more lightly armored guys around him.

Heavy infantry by definition can take and hold land from lighter infantry. light infantry is that which must retreat when pushed.

>>64152318
>Internet hearsay. We have historical sources talking about what two handed swords are good for. I've yet to see any of them mention sweeping aside pikes.
Figueyredo talks about sweeping aside a polearm attack in one section of his montante manual. So the notion that this matchup could happen was at least considered. I don't know that it proves anything else though, like that it was the greatsword's primary job. The manual seems to portray it as an area denial weapon for the most part.

>>64152256 (OP)
Welsh longbowman. Won the battle of agincourt

>>64152256 (OP)
yea, armored knights smartass, thats part of the reason why they used shorter weapons so often

>>64152256 (OP)
>Ginger Billy, put it down, it's gonna be alright

>>64154594
The montante is by no means slow or cumbersome, it was historically used for all manner of combat not just against pikemen.
A montante weighed about 4 pounds and was plenty fast

>>64152256 (OP)
>>64152318
That pretty much ended knights.

>>64154744
Mud, spikes and cannons won agincourt.

>>64152256 (OP)
unironically starving orphan squads with knives. they would dogpile them and stab at joints. same thing with the tercios.

>>64152256 (OP)
Quite a lot of pole weapons got used to fuck up kniggers, some better at de-horsing, others better for getting into armour and a few were jack of all trades because jack owed you money so you had to go beat his ass

>>64155027
I know, I've used one many times. I never said it was slow. When you look at the few manuals that are available, a large number of the drills are centered around crowd control and defending an area/person. That must say something about how it was used.

>>64152318
>The Zweihänder is said to have been used by the Doppelsöldner to break through formations of pikemen, especially Swiss pikemen, by either being swung to break the ends of the pikes themselves or to knock them aside and attack the pikemen directly. The veracity of this tradition is disputed, but it dates back at least to the 17th century.

>>64152256 (OP)
I dont know if there were specialized units. I think the standard tactics would have been to use blunt weapons like maces, warhammers or pole hammers, to target gaps in the armor with something like a dagger or to use a heavy crossbow with enough power to go through the armor or try your luck with a heavy war bow

>>64155111
>Mud, spikes and dismounted knights
ftfy

>>64152256 (OP)
As many have already pointed out: knights were the dedicated anti-knight unit. Of course nothing is invincible and a few lightly armored and armed (ideally with some type of polearm) guys can take on knights as well. But the realities of medieval warfare changed much over the course of those hundreds of years and with that the available arms and armor.
>>64152313
Similar to the flemish urban militias who gave the french knights a bloddy nose: if one can secure an advantages position for himself while also forcing the enemy into a disadvantage on, the equipment really doesn't matter.
>>64154594
If seen a video of a hungarian youtuber who used early 16th century italian, german and hungarian sources about such two-handed battle swords. Here "counter-pike" efforts were briefly covered but most of the texts focused on guarding VIPs or areas.
Another source I know that supports the latter sort of deployment of those two-handed battle swords is pic rel: here the Landsknechte armed with Zweihänder are described to be the primary guard of the colors; only springing into action, when the formation of pikemen has been breached and the colors are directly threatened by the enemy
>>64155233
Being a Doppelsöldner isn't limited to being capable in the usage of the Zweihänder. Veterancy, having good equipment, being willing to take risks or being able to read and write also qualifies one for getting double the pay.