Thread 64161453

>In compact pistols, .380 Auto makes way more sense, and it's also naturally subsonic for good suppression.
>In subcompact and pocket pistols, we have the .32 Auto, with the same advantages.
>In full size guns, .45 Auto makes way more sense, and again, it is naturally subsonic for good suppression. The relatively low velocity and pressure ironically makes it far more enjoyable to shoot than 9x19.
>9x19 generally has too high of an energy to sectional density ratio for shooting humans, meaning you're almost guaranteed to shoot entirely through someone and waste energy, which is why hollow points exist and are most common in 9x19, but then why not just shoot .45 Auto?
>Unlike essentially every other common handgun cartridge it has a taper, which should theoretically increase feeding reliability, but limits magazine reliability (pistols have straight magazines). An example of this problem manifests itself in the Springfield Kuna, originally designed for the .40 S&W (a straight wall cartridge) which had 9mm shoehorned into it and now has magazine issues.
>Magazine capacity is not a practical advantage: the average self-defense shooting is over with only a single round fired.
>It is unsuitable for hunting unlike the 10mm Auto.
The only, and I mean ONLY place one can claim 9mm makes sense is in IPSC-style carboard run-and-gun competition, where you want a huge magazine of 15+ rounds to avoid time lost to reloads, which ironically is quite European because they generally can't carry for self defense.

So why should an American, with nearly limitless options of handguns, choose this mediocre chambering?

>>64161453 (OP)
it's cheap. Also its still a bullet. You people would have others believe that if you shoot someone with a 9mm they won't get fucked

>>64161453 (OP)
>9x19 generally has too high of an energy to sectional density ratio for shooting humans, meaning you're almost guaranteed to shoot entirely through someone and waste energy, which is why hollow points exist
Funny how 9mm became popular at the exact point when hollow points became popular.
Anyway. 380 is too weak. 45 has too little capacity. .40S&W is still too snappy. 9mm is the optimum, and the only real disadvantage is the taper which actually doesn't matter in practice.
>But it's european
That's where the shoe ACTUALLY pinches. Well deal with it.

>>64161453 (OP)
Stopped reading at
>>shoot entirely through someone and waste energy
The mind numbing lack of awareness of how pistols, knives, arrows ect actually kill someone or something absolutely sends me off the deep end...
YOU WANT TWO FUCKING HOLES, YOU WANT THE THING TO BLEED THE FUCK OUT, THERE IS NOT ENOUGH ENERGY IN A PISTOL ROUND TO DO ANY SECONDARY DAMAGE.
Energy and impact velocity are factors in how much a bullet opens with its construction as another factor.
Stop talking about Energy in pistols. Its irrelevant.
Diameter, velocity, mass even sd/bc is you want.

>>64161512
Capacity is a meme. There is a 99% cance you won't need more than 2 or 3 shots. A 99.something you won't need more than 6. 7 is more than enough.
.40 is probably the best all around comprise that absolutely will perform even when there are barriers, excess clothing and at bad angles. 40 should be the minimum.
>>to snappy
Fucking lol

>>64161685
obsession with handguns is an American thing.

>>64161695
>trigger confidence
love to see it

>>64161654
>There is a 99% cance you won't need more than 2 or 3 shots
Because of psychological stopping power. For which calibre doesn't matter jack shit. For physical stopping power, rate of fire (recoil) control is just as important as single shot damage. Which is why 9mm is better than .40S&W.

>>64161707
What the fuck are you blathering about? Almost all handgun incidents involving civilians go the same way. Speed is irrelevant. Capacity is irrelevant. Cyclic rate is irrelevant.
There are a thousand videos of cops with 9mm mag dumping at a perpetual missing every shot then one of them getting downed by an old 357 snub nose in the hands of some low iq fool before they get him.
He who stays calm and shoots a bullet of enough diameter, mass and velocity through the vital area or cns wins 99% of the time.
9mm
High capacity
High rate of fire
These are military tactics that work when you are part of a group. Not in hd/sd

>>64161707
>>I need low recoil because I'm a zoomer fem manlet so everyone must need 9mm
Your gen is fucked guy

For like 95% of common cartridges the reason they are common is just inertia. I'm sure that if we look at just about any modern cartridge from 308 win to 9x19 or 5.56x45 we can find cartridges that are either subjectively or objectively better but if you introduce something new it's hard to convince people to pony up the money to buy something that's like 5% to 15% better but costs two or three times as much.

>>64161453 (OP)
Use whatever you want. No one gives a shit.

>>64161736
Follow-up shots has been a boomer talking point of 9mm vs .40 and .45 "snappiness," since before you came out of your father's left nut.

Nobody here has shot someone with a 45. I have, it works.

>>64161453 (OP)
10mm should have fully supplanted 9mm and fuddy five, its a shame the FBI began hiring women and now everyone is held back to soiboi standards

>>64161453 (OP)
>In compact pistols, .380 Auto makes way more sense
No. Unless you're retarded and you mean micro compact, in which case, only a few handguns are small enough to justify .380 over 9mm, like the lcp and kel tec p3at. Anything bigger than that needs to be 9mm. Even the p365, which is only a little bigger than the lcp is extremely comfortable to shoot. So you're either a retard, or a little girl who's recoil sensitive.

>>64161695
They honestly look like mongrels. Must be polish immigrants or something.

>>64161453 (OP)
Are you fucking retarded? 9mm has substantially more power than .380, can easily be loaded light to be subsonic, and allows way more capacity than .45ACP, which is itself antiquated junk because we have 10mm.

>>64162016
Story?

>>64161639
>THERE IS NOT ENOUGH ENERGY IN A PISTOL ROUND TO DO ANY SECONDARY DAMAGE
>pic related
lmao get wrecked faggot

>>64161453 (OP)
.380 is based. On the other end of things, I wish someone other than Hi-Point made an affordable .380 carbine.

>>64162153
>>64162280
>subjective retards

>>64161873
>>has to explain to stupid
Its not an issue for non wristlets

>>64162300
A bitch and a tard all in one package. Sucks to be you poser.

>>64162280
>.45ACP, which is itself antiquated junk because we have 10mm.
you obviously don't know the history of the 45. the 10mm is good yes but it doesn't have the knockdown power of the 45.

>>64162584
>MUH KNOCK DOWN POWER
shut up fucking retard. Pistols just poke holes.

>>64162753
Your peashooters do, my handcannons knock people on their ass while it evicts their soul from their body and erases them from existance

>>64162475
>A bitch and a tard all in one package. Sucks to be you poser.
I know you are but what am I?

>>64162753
>knockdown power
Opinion discarded. I bet you believe that shotgun blasts throw people on their ass too.

>>64162584
>knockdown power
Opinion discarded. I bet you believe that shotgun blasts throw people on their ass too.

>>64161453 (OP)
>>Magazine capacity is not a practical advantage: the average self-defense shooting is over with only a single round fired.
We should all be carrying this then

>>64161453 (OP)
It makes ENOUGH sense in anything but extreme outlier situations and has over a century of momentum behind it. Simple as.

>>64162300
What's your pic of a stockless carbine supposed to means, exactly?

>>64162753
>50 AE hollow points at 1800fps have nothing on 25 ACP, after all they're just holes

>he doesn’t carry a 9mm auto pistol
Shiggy diggy

>>64162299
I shot myself in the leg. It fucking hurt way more than when I shot myself with 9mm.

>>64161453 (OP)
>How did European Mediocrity become the standard for Americans?
The expected target profile for a military sidearm changed from a charging Moro warrior to a Soviet paratrooper wearing a steel helmet and a flak vest.

Carry 32ACP and quit your bitching

>>64162209
You’re feeble domesticated race couldn’t handle their pvre vril, but your women could take it regularly in small doses

>>64164324
>What's your pic of a stockless carbine supposed to means, exactly?
Retard sees a picture of a pistol, also known as a handgun, and mistakes it for a "stockless carbine". This board is going to shit

>>64161453 (OP)
Based .380 enjoyer

>>64161453 (OP)
.45 and .40 are not associated with a higher fatality rate

They are associated with a higher miss rate

>>64164673
40 and 45 in civilian shooting are associated with a less shots for more fatalities. Not sure where you get your info...I'm betting the paid for flawed common two...but you are very wrong.
One can look at "mass shooting" examples found on multiple sources and compare shot count to deaths and see 9mm fucking sucks. As does 5.7. 45 and 40 are scary good at killing comparatively.

>>64164673
90% of statistics are made up on the spot

>>64162299
idk what you would want me to tell you. One shot stopped the threat. shot placement is king with any gun but with 45 it will truly just shut your shit down.
>I either had sig vcrown subs or some other decent hollow point.
>alot of blood

>>64161750
fucking this ^

>>64164636
Pistols, more specifically autoloading pistols, have a magazine in the grip.
Carbines, more specifically autoloading carbines, have a magazine not in the grip.
Here is an (autoloading) carbine with a detachable stock.
Taking the stock off doesn't make into an (autoloading) pistol. It's still an (autoloading) carbine, just with the stock taken off.

>pistol, often known as a handgun
A revolving pistol, known better as a revolver, is a handgun (unless it is a revolving carbine), but it is not a pistol in the common sense of being an autoloading pistol. Unless it is a Mateba, at which point it is an autoloading revolver, or an autoloading revolving pistol.

Stop letting the ATF define reality. I bet you also believe that "pistol braces" aren't (butt)stocks.

>>64161453 (OP)
For the same reason we love 10.5” ARs. Americans love min maxing with spicy ammunition rather than “perfect optimization”. We literally took stoner’s 20” perfection and made it overgassed, and prone to parts breakage in order to squeeze out all the size/weight/velocity benefits of the 5.56 over something like a 9mm carbine. Same principle with handguns. The ability to carry twice as much ammo as .45 is huge. The combination of hollow points + supersonic ammo is the selling point that overshadows all subsonic benefits of .380 or .32ACP. The supersonic critique for suppressors in a non starter since no one is carrying a pistol with a can. It’s a meme for assassin larpers. 9mm being overpowered for ball ammo isn’t a bug, it’s a feature. “Over penetrating” cheap ball ammo for training, and hollowpoints for actual carry. It’s peak min maxing that allows people to train for cheap and have decent killing potential. That is the American way that Europoors will never understand.

>>64161654
There is also a 99% chance you will never use your gun in a self defense scenario. So by that logic you shouldn’t carry at all lol.
Real talk, the deficit people actual face is lack of training. The gun you train with and can actually hit with is what you should be using. Most people can’t afford Gucci .40 and even if they did…it’s too snappy for most people to get enjoyment out of training with. That’s the simple gist of it. Brass tax is that 9mm is cheaper to train with and has the most R&D put into its hollow point ammo. If I had my way, and it was more reliable, I would recommend every normie carry .22 magnum. Cause I frankly don’t trust that any of you fuckers train to be accurate out to 60 feet or have the awareness of pass through potential. Anyone fighting for a paradigm where normies are carrying above 9mm need to be shot. I don’t need to live in a country that is even more unsafe.

>>64165274
>>you shouldn't carry at all
I mean you don't really need to. Thats the fact. Choose to, dont need to.
>>not accurate past 20 yards.
Ahhh, you know that at 20 yards its not really sd/hd anymore right? And thats rifle territory
>>blah blah blah cheap, r&d
Just stop dipshit. One 40 was developed to replace the 10mm and it did. Its already passed all the barrier, heavy clothing and bad angle tests. With flying colors.
9mm is a bitchlet caliber that fails way to often to be reliable for any use.
>>muh can not shoot cause boom boom impulses
I can accurately shoot anything i recommend. As can those around me.
The truth that makes fags like you seeth is that inside known handgun distance anyone can learn to shoot anything.
>>but you didn't address muh cheap
The difference in price for handgun ammo is negligible unless you are a sport shooter. And they don't fucking count. They train in too many bad habits to be considered a source when it comes to hd/sd/combat
>>but this picture of some fag training...
Publicity stunt to garner book sales and more recruitment for the military.

>>64166014
>training to be able to hit at “rifle distances” is superfluous….but barrier penetration in a pistol is essential?
Rigggght. Some might argue that barrier penetration is the domain of rifles aswell, but who am I to argue.

>>64161453 (OP)
I switched to .380 only because I got made when carrying my 9 IWB. Some mall cop was following me around with a dog then they stopped me and said they were calling the cops because I had a gun. You can always see it if I'm not wearing a jacket because I refuse to dress like a fatass. Pocket carry is just so much more convenient and no one has ever batted an eye, I can go to family events and not be awkward, go on dates and they never know even if I take off my pants. Can't beat the convenience and .380 is plenty capable. You can't really shoot all that accurately with micro 9s anyway, they recoil a lot due to their small size.

>>64166411
>>more not very well though out nonsense
Self defense has an automobile element. As well as home defense has doors walls, windows. Very recent fake cops shot through door news report a real world examples.
Sd/hd does not have many examples i can think of where a 20 yard pistol shot is called for. Or even defensible in some states in court.

>>64166519
If you are ever in a scenario where you have to shoot someone through a door/wall you better have a damn good lawyer, cause it’s hard to justify threat of imminent death if you can’t even see the person. You are violating the principle of pass through potential. You have no idea if your kid/wife/neighbor/coworker is behind it.
>not have many examples i can think of where a 20 yard pistol shot is called for
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood_Park_Mall_shooting
I bet this kid had better awareness of ptp than your retarded ass.

>>64166496
Sounds like me minus getting pinned for packing. Pocket carry is great and the draw isn't bad with practice. I dress like a normie and look pretty hipster dick and I've never ever had someone notice. I told my mom I was armed when visiting her and she thought I was being sarcastic. 8 rounds of 380 isn't ideal but I have no doubt it would cover 99% of the .01% of threats I couldn't just run the fuck away from.

What rounds do you use? I have hydrashok deep 99gr but I'm worried they'll hang up on the feed ramp so one in the chamber, a norma mhp on top and hs deep for the rest of the mag

>>64166496
>>64166809
>9 ---- .380
good comparison pic

>>64161453 (OP)
You basically answered your own question. Compfags and their bullshit have been trickling down and influencing the "tactical" market since the 1990's. The other reason is NATO and how everybody wants to be like GI Joe. A properly tuned custom 5" 1911 chambered in 45 ACP is still the ultimate combat handgun.

>>64161654
Post guns, now.

>>64161512
>.40S&W is still too snappy
Literally the entire reason people say this is because Glock spung and weighted their 9 and 40 guns identically until Gen 5.

Go shoot a Gen5 23, it's a night and day difference.

>>64161512
>>64168870
>'snappy'
>9mm is the optimum
'Snap' is the recoil impulse velocity and can be detected/felt in many 9 mm-chambered handguns depending on size and design (which can include the type/grade of recoil spring used).
.40 S&W you need a handgun designed from paper to handle that cartridge.
'muh snap' is not an valid excuse, comparison or dismissal of any particular cartridge chambering for pistols. And it can additionally be mitigated or outright ignored with the absolute least effort training and awareness (don't limp-wrist, etc.) on part of the shooter.

>>64168985
I've always understood "snap" to refer to how hard the slide crashes at the most rearward point of travel. It doesn't matter whether you're limp-wristing, it's a mechanical impulse from the gun itself.
The problem with 40 and Glock was that the base recoil mechanism of the 17/19/26 was just copied over to the 22/23/27, with the only changes made being a bigger hole in the front of the slide and a different extractor and ejector. So the 40's just make the slide crash harder, hence "snap".
The Gen5 fixes it with a heavier slide, giving the spring more time to slow it down. Totally transforms the gun.

>>64169028
Snap is (result of) the velocity of recoil impulse. How fast the slide recoils on a pistol (sometimes dependent on the cartridge's powder burn rate, but also factors such as the recoil mechanism, springs, direct or delayed blowback, mass of pistol frame+slide/barrel i.e. how the pistol itself has been designed from outset to handle the particular chambering-cartridge itself, etc.)
It's the speed, rapidity of recoil no matter the pistol, its design, or chambering.

>>64164792
>Yeahposter
>.45 appreciator
Based.
Have the other Yeah image I made a few years ago as thanks.

>>64161453 (OP)
9mm is good because it can be used in a wide variety of pistol sizes, from little microcompacts all the way up to PCCs. However, most people only use compacts and smaller so 9mm accounts for 99% of pistol sales. desu if you're using a fullsize might as well use 45 or 10mm instead of 9, mo powah with gudenuff capacity

>>64169539
appreciate you chief.

>>64161453 (OP)
7/10 bait OP, you probably made a few 9lets seethe, but likely didn't dissuade them from using their 120+ year old shit caliber.

>>64161685
>posting about weapons on the weapons board
Go back tourist

>>64161453 (OP)
Bait.

>>64163417
needs a better muzzle device to be a proper Han Solo blaster

>>64170668
Go back to (You)r containment /hg/ <--cancerslop, tranny

>>64170772
This and another waste-of-bandwidth handgun caliber "topic"