Thread 64172653

Had the Mirage 4000 entered service at the start of the 1980s, there wouldn't have been a need for the Miirage 2000 or Rafale to exist, or even for France to have joined the Future European Fighter Aircraft program (leading to the Eurofighter Typhoon) in the first place. A high-lo mix of Mirage 4000s, F1s and Jaguars could have kept the AdA going into the 2020s with continuous upgrades. The Mirage 4000's larger size and integration from the start with ATLIS would have made it even better suited to be a nuclear bomber and large Strike Eagle-type conventional bombtruck, without the need to develop the Mirage 2000N/D. Most importantly, it would have freed up Dassault's time and resources - close to two decades or more of boondoggle of being involved with EADS and later the Rafale's development - to focus on a fifth generation competitor to the F-22/F-35, instead of having zero experience with fifth gens and trying to make FCAS from scratch.

>b-b-but the Navy
Fuck them, F-8s and Super Etendards would have been good enough for the 2000s-2020s and they could get F-35s afterwards. Its not like the Rafale M did shit anyway other than bomb some Afghan goatherders

>but muh foreign sales
Its not like the Mirage 2000 did very well compared to the F-16 either

I agree, especially about the FCAS. I sincerely don't think that they will be even be close to making a 5th-gen equivalent, much less 6th-gen with that program due to such a developmental gap. You can see it with how the other nations in the GCAP progam is just mogging with on time, on budget milestones.

>>64172653 (OP)
>the engine still used the basic core design as the BMW 018, with modernized materials for the turbine
>no radar
>1950s inlets
No.

The M88 was a new design from scratch with modern materials and design. Wasting money in yet another misfit after designing the decent Mirage 2000 would be retarded

>>64172653 (OP)
>all this bullshit
>"we'll just buy F35 for the Navy btw"
Nice strategic autonomy bro

>>64172688
>strategic autonomy

not like they ever had it anyway

>>64172653 (OP)
>>64172666
France and Germany have more experience with fifth gens than the GCAP partners (UK, Italy and Japan), where none of the companies involved (BAE, Leonardo or Mitsubishi) have any experience as part of the original JSF design program or assembling F-35s locally

>>64172653 (OP)
that's like saying that if the US had employed the F-14 we wouldn't have had the need to make the F-18 and the F-35

>>64172688
Frogs have historically bought and used our planes for their navy along with their own designs. IIRC they were the second largest crusader user after us. Plus their carrier ops have always been fairly tightly intertwined with our boats, it's how the Rafale can take off from a Nimitz, they used our ship to develop their CATOBAR tech. Though you're right F35s are pretty outlandish, they'd much more likely buy hornets

>>64172731
The difference is that the US had the resources to develop the F-14 and F-18 (as well as F-15, F-16, and later YF-22) simultaneously. France only had enough for one and they chose the worst possible combination (the M2000 and then wasting a decade arguing with other countries over the Eurofighter before going their own way and developing basically a slightly better Super Hornet at the same time the US had moved on to fifth gens)

>>64172744
> the F-14 and F-18 (as well as F-15, F-16, and later YF-22) simultaneously.

Timeline was actually Tomcat and Eagle being developed simultaneously in the late 60s based on Vietnam experience, and both entering service in the mid-70s, while F-16 and F-18 both coming later in the late-70s/early-80s, quite literally out of the same Air Force program which the YF-17 lost only to be picked up by the Navy later

>>64172731
The difference is France is the size of one US state.

>its the 1980s (2000s), start of a brand new decade, the field is wide open for next generation fighter sales. Time for Europe to catch up with America!
>A British-German-Italian consortium, Panavia (Eurofighter GmbH), after much toil and setbacks, has finally produced an advanced multirole combat aircraft, the Tornado (Typhoon), which meets all the partner nations' diverse requirements. Hopefully some of the cost of its convoluted development can be recouped with foreign sales
>Meanwhile, Dassault is certain that its own offering, the Mirage 2000 (Rafale) will enjoy the same export success as its predecessor the Mirage F1
>prospects are looking good for Euroboys, many countries are looking for a low cost, high performance light fighter to keep up with the latest generation of scary Miggers (Sukhois)
>Yes yes, well done, Europoors, well done. HOWEVER
>USA has just unveiled the F-16 (F-35), meant to be a less advanced, affordable export-friendly alternative to its primary air superiority fighter, the F-15 (F-22) .... but it still mogs the shit out of everything else
>the Israelis just tested it over Lebanon (Syria), no better advertising required
>oh fugg, everyone is lining up to buy it
>Belgium, Denmark and the Netherlands, which France and the consortium had been hoping to capture, are the first in NATO to place orders
>sells just as well with third world countries and proceeds to utterly dominate the market for cheap Western fighters over the next two decades .... sales which should have rightfully gone to the Tornado (Typhoon) and Mirage (Rafale)
>EuroTurkey ends up being bought only by Saudi Arabia due to UK political bullshittery, only breaks even due to initial orders by the partner countries
>Mirage does slightly better outside Europe thanks to an extensive overseas bribery campaign by Dassault, but not as good as expected
>Still better than the Viggen (Gripen) I guess.... lel

How does this keep happening? Why does this keep happening?

>>64172711
The FCAS schizo bot is back

>>64172670
(though I love the 4000 concept) This is mostly the reason.

>>64172744
>moved on to fifth generations
>moved on
as in we made a plane so upgradeable that we won't see much from it. At this point lockheed is just dunkin on the chinese constantly. Like for fun. Imagine having a guy telling XI their planes are worthless. His face would be fucking great.

I have seen A blueprint of the f-35 and NGAD. They are both 6gen fighters.Like, it's crazy. They even used my idea Toss in a b-21 that can provide it's own air support especially when you have a shit ton f117 flying along side it.

>>64173075
Also, what's totally rad is that there is an all female team. Women are naturally better at multitasking, so imagine flying in with a bunch drones.

>>64172736
This, F/A-18s were considered and an couple were even tested by the French Navy in the mid-80s as a replacement to both the F8 and Etendard. An Air Force on Mirage 4000 and Navy on F/A-18 scenario is much more believable than the bullshit "stay with Vietnam era aircraft for 30 years until the F35 comes along" thing OP proposed

>>64173155
thanks chatgpt

>>64172711
But Mitsubishi does assemble F-35s, plus Rolls Royce did the lift fan for the F-35B and iirc was involved with GE’s alternate engine pitch. GCAP seems a lot farther ahead and to be going more smoothly, though I do wonder if that won’t be closer to 5.5th gen in terms of stealth since it seems to still use tails. FCAS seems very troubled currently so I question what results from it too

>>64173773
>>64172795
>64159691
>64160327

>>64173773
>>64172795
>>64159691
>>64160327

>>64173805
I see. Some new spam/joke post I’m not familiar with? Board quality has made it hard for me to tell who’s serious and who’s taking the piss anymore

>Mirage 4000
we used to have kino names for stuff
now its fagmaster this and niggermuncher that

>>64172670
Or they could have just used two M88s on the Mirage 4000 later in development, like they did on the Rafale?

>>64172736
>>64173155
Another option being considered to replace the Etendard was a navalized Jaguar. Really the main limiting factor is the small size of the Foch and Clemenceau, which is why France used Crusaders instead of Phantoms like the RN. If Rafale is never developed, CdG might have been built larger in the 90s with a possible view of taking a navalized Mirage 4000 instead (which is closer in size to the F-14 than the Rafale's F-18). Basically the French equivalent to the F-14D since it would also have to take on the strike role if the naval Jag doesn't happen or no dedicated Super Etendard replacement is developed

>>64175021
The M88 is way smaller than the M53, it would be like replacing the TF30 in the F-14/F-111 with the F404, you don't.

>>64175021
The Rafale prototype used the F404 that is very similar in size with the M88-2.
The M88 is way smaller than the M53, it would be like replacing the TF30 in the F-14/F-111 with the F404, you don't.

>>64172706

They will now…

>>64175728
not carrier capable you stupid nigger