Thread 64175851

>Reuters reports that the French defence industry is blocking the progress of the FCAS (Future Combat Air System) project, demanding to be given sole leadership over the project.


Are Frogs incapable of not sabotaging anything?

>>64175851 (OP)
Who didn't see this coming... they also want Germany to pay for it to be CATOBAR capable when Germany doesn't have a CATOBAR carrier, or any carrier for that matter.

>>64175851 (OP)
Explain why this is bad for Germany if the project is completed in a more timely and streamlined manner

>>64175876
France wants 80% work share while contributing 33% of the funding.

They're jewing you out of money.

>>64175851 (OP)
I hope to see leopard tanks in the streets of Paris.

>tfw GCAP will dominate the skies of europe while the french seethe with their shitty rafales
Feels good. Fuck the frogs

>>64175881
If France wants more tanks before 2040, they basically have to get leopards.

>>64175884
The British isles look tiny here

>>64175851 (OP)
>Woah, so the company that was contracted to have leadership over the project... actually wants leadership over the project?
>those bloody frogs

>>64175851 (OP)
It's the whole Eurofighter thing all over again. Euros can't agree on anything except the importation of browns.

>>64175881
Bold move considering France's opening move in a WW3 gone hot scenario has long been "Nuke Germany".

>>64175851 (OP)
I'm really happy that my country is sticking to F-35s and thus can't get fucked over by frog autism no matter how bad it gets

>>64175851 (OP)
I'm calling it. first FCAS prototype in 2060 and full serial production in 2080.
IT WILL HAVE A FIXED REFUEL PROBE

>>64175851 (OP)
So, it happened AGAIN. We can blame technical challenges, we can blame budget constraints, we can praise the efforts of our partners, but the truth is it's simply not enough. Strategy, innovation—you name it, it all stinks.

Don't get me wrong, I still have full faith in the leadership and the countries involved, but MASSIVE reinforcements in terms of funding and resources are desperately needed right now. Otherwise, I'm not very optimistic about the upcoming phases of development, or our chances in the competitive landscape for that matter. Not progressing like this. What do you think, /fcasug/?

#TrappierIN or #TrappierOUT?

Some helpful links to numb the pain:

>https://www.fcas.eu/
>https://jlingzofficial.com/
>https://www.aviationnews.com/
>https://eda.europa.eu/
>https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/suicide/
>https://ec.europa.eu/info/funding-tenders/opportunities/portal/screen/home

>>64175898
The US is 41% white, the EU 95% on average.

Can someone explain to me what actual advantage FCAS still has to germany
>No tech learned, France grabs it all
>Get a fighter that doesn't suit our needs
>Have to include france in MGCS in return
We should cancel this, buy GCAP off the shelf, develop a loyal wingman on our own (think the industry is capable of that) and also develop our own tank/vehicle platform.

>>64175884
Reminder that germany would be on board with it too were not for the fact that the UK cucked them out of the project and forced them to stay with france, just like japan cucked the Saudis out. GCAP is an exclusive club, not for bums

>>64175922
GCAP is not accepting new partners.

>>64175927
>UK cucked them out of the project and forced them to stay with france
no shit, with the Eurofighter the 2 biggest troublemakers were the frogs who wanted every decision to be made by them alone and the krauts whose bureaucracy made the project go at a snail pace on top of wanting the EF to not be exported to other countries.

>>64175900
we should have done it regardless of ww3

>>64175928
>Partners
I said buy off the shelf, not work on it.

Tempest bros we are winning so much

>>64175933
We should have genocided frenchmen instead of poles.

>>64175928
Italy proposed that Saudi Arabia build a production line for Eurofighters and other stuff to have the know how to join GCAP, and it seems Japan is now more open to the idea compared to a few years ago.

>>64175938
ohhh look at me i'm going to destroy europe for the 4th time this month ohhhhh i'm so special !

>>64175946
>Let me import 10 million niggers honhonhon
Pots and kettles pierre.

>>64175876
The project will be paying for a bunch of french-centric bullshit. The frogs are some of the most rug-pull fags in europe, who couldve seen this coming...

>>64175952
Too fast to crop it properly
Also the french revolution is the root cause of all leftism

>>64175958
If so then how come italy had no issues dealing with them when it came to ships? FREMM is considered one of the best frigates in the world. Maybe, just maybe, it's not about the country, but the company. Dassault in particular is constantly trying to isolate french development from everybody else, because they want absolute monopoly over military contracts. Meanwhile airbus is trying to do the same and the french government is trying desperately to tardwrangle them.

>>64175915
>>64175851 (OP)
In the Frenchmen's defense - they have a military aviation industry they need to keep fed.

The Germans specifically let theirs rot and die during the Cold War.

>>64175952
anon you fucking moron the first nation to mass import thirld worlder is merkel

That fat cunt put us in so much trouble, between the russians, stopping the nuclear reactors and importing thirld worlder

>>64175952
Kek

>>64175851 (OP)
typical germ-frog project, nothing new

>>64175940
The idea was floated, it went nowhere.

As far as I understand, the French have all the tech and patents, and the Germans only have money and political pressure (via the EU).
Perhaps Mr Trappier will explain the situation to us?

>>64176102
Why should Germany agree to pay Partner-level money in a project where at the end they'll be left with the same privileges as a future customer nation that has contributed zero euros to the project?

>>64176102
Then why should Germany fund it? If they get nothing out of it, just wait until France develops it and buy it later. Or better yet, buy GCAP instead.

There is zero incentive for anyone besides france to pay for the development if the only thing being offered is purchase rights.

If France ACTUALLY wanted this project to happen they need to share the benefits, but nope they want all the benefits while getting Germany and Spain to bankroll half of it.

>>64176111
>>64176121
Because Germany wants a new jet and only has money?
>If France ACTUALLY wanted this project to happen they need to share the benefits
Germany wants a share of France's tech.

>>64176126
>Because Germany wants a new jet and only has money?
Cool, then we'll buy the GCAP or the FCAS afterward as simple customers and we'll save billions of euros. If we're not going to get a geo and technological return it makes no sense for us to bear a whole third of the project costs.

>>64176126
You haven't answered the question.

>>64176126
Yes, technology sharing IS generally expected in these kinds of programs.

And adhesive, GCAP will also be available, why should Germany get hung up on FCAS? Unless they're getting tech transfer from france, might as well go with another program that also won't give you tech transfer, but at least doesn't require your money to develop.

Also, FCAS isn't even being designed for Germany, it's being designed for France, CATOBAR carrier capability isn't required by anyone but France, yet they want Germany and Spain to fund that development cost for purely France's own benefit.

If the US opens up 6th gen exports, and GCAP is available, Germany will have two options besides FCAS, neither one requiring development money from Germany.

>>64176137
>And adhesive, GCAP will also be available
And besides, GCAP will also be avaliable

>>64176132
>>64176137
If France and Germany's needs and tech gap are so important, why is that even a joint project to begin with?

>>64176144
Because Germany assumed France learned their lesson from previous joint programs in Europe.

Clearly they were wrong.

>>64176144
because the initial GCAP feasibility study clearly stated they didn't want either france nor germany. No single EU country can make a true 6th gen alone so they had to do another joint project with who was left.

The French government is probably going to seppuku itself with the confidence vote in parlement soon, how will this affect FCAS?
Are the funds already in place or will it be cut?

>>64176155
The program is already on the back burner with principle development not slated to begin until the mid to late 2030s, so no significant funding has been allocated yet.

>>64176126
Imagine someone wants to open a restaurant and asks you to co-finance the endeavor BUT, they'll tell you that after you paid your share you will reap no benefits, you'll simply be a customer like everyone else, you will not get any ROI, nor any discount to the stuffed frogs they'll serve. Why would someone accept to basically burn money when you could simply be a customer afterward or go to another restaurant? GCAP Sashimi and Pizzera is around the block and they promised the brits won't be allowed in the kitchen, and the F-47 fast food joint is coming in the future.
The frogs sheer arrogance makes them unable to understand that when you work with other people you either have to compromise and learn to work together, or be relegated to becoming the first african country in the EU, stuck with a jets that don't even have a retractable fuel probe and in their first true engagement lost against pakis.

>>64176166
>stuck with a jets that don't even have a retractable fuel probe
wtf i thought it was retractable

LMAO! Next time, don't be a colony of the United States and build an independent military or aeronautical industry. Now, either pay up or fuck off. There are piggy banks elsewhere in the world.

>>64176166
>a jets that don't even have a retractable fuel probe
Why is that triggering so many probelets?

>>64176172
>be smug
>end up like Mogadishu
>economy is frefalling to levels soon to be below Italy
>stuck with rafailes (3++ gen) indefinetly
>will never be able to have a 5th gen
>will never be relevant again
lmao, or as the french say خخخخخخ

>frog still can't answer why germany should pay
BWAHAHAHAHAHA, they are just THAT arrogant.

>>64176193
But why are you so butthurt though?

>>64176199
>projecting
lol, me butthurt? I'm gloating that yet another international project is dead because of the french.

>>64176204
Answer the question, subhuman

>>64176208
I did answer the question, Muhammed. You just don't like the answer.

>>64176211
Concession accepted

>>64176216
>no u
You, like it's tradition for frogs, can only run away. Just like you ran away from answering why would anyone want to accept the frogs plan to the FCAS. Because you can't. You can only smear yourself in your bed of feces and arrogance while ignoring reality and resorting to reddit tier witty comebacks. So, out of pity I'll accept your concession.

>>64176234
>doubles down on being a butthurt subhuman
kek

>>64176236
>continues to run away from the question
The pityful thing is that you don't even realize just how much you're embarassing yourself.

>>64176155
>look it up
>no confidence
>opposition gets to sit in prime minister seat
>macron still allowed to squat in the chair that matters
What does the French PM do?

>>64176172
Lol

Lmao even

This is the exact kind of egocentric smug post if expect from a delusional frog. You're too poor to do FCAS alone by 2050, so now that you've kicked Germany to the curb it'll be 2060+ before FCAS is actually in service, if ever.

>>64176243
Stop crying you're making everyone uncomfortable

>>64176193
Freedom ain't free, Mohamed.
But there is no need to be mad. You are free to leave if you don't want to pay.

>>64176244
>What does the French PM do?
Fuck his high school teacher.

>>64176252
And then France will act smug for the next decade, then scream and moan for the next 10-20 years after that blaming Germany for FCAS taking so long.

>>64176247
>You're too poor to do FCAS alone by 2050
It's not even a matter of money, the Caliphate of France simply doesn't have the technology and knowhow to build a 5th gen, let alone a 6th gen. whenever you remind them of this fact they start shitposting the thread like they are already doing.

>>64175851 (OP)
>Are Frogs incapable of not sabotaging anything?
It's in their DNA. Usually their tactic is to sabotage an international program like the Eurofighter, steal all the data and make their own version pretending they did it all by themselves. This time it wen't badly for them as the UK immediately refused to work with them, so now France is stuck in a position where they can't copy anything from the others, and are now trying to fully kill the FCAS project trying to blame Germany so that they can save face.

>>64176234
>why would anyone want to accept the frogs plan to the FCAS.
Because Germs have no choice. That what happens when your aeronautical industry is laughable.
If they leave, they will have to pay to buy GCAP.
If they stay, they will pay for FCAS but still have some influence and works to do.

>>64176247
Lmao, get real. India or SA will be very happy to jump in. As I said, we just need a piggy bank

>>64176258
>t.

>>64176258
I mean, if you throw enough money at the problem they could do it they just don't have the budget to spend $500m+ per airframe.

>>64175922
>(think the industry is capable of that)
They are not, hence the reason why they're trying to suck Dassault out of all past tech

>>64176265
>Because Germs have no choice.
We have a choice, buy GCAP or F-47.
>If they stay, they will pay for FCAS but still have some influence and works to do.
Except France literally said no to that.
>honhonhon we'll let you decide the color of the screw!
yeah, cool. It's way better to buy the GCAP or the F-47 then. Which will actually be 6th gen, unlike anything the frogs will (not) produce.

>>64176265
>If they stay, they will pay for FCAS but still have some influence and works to do
While finding 30%+ of the entire program.

And again, they don't want carrier capability, but they're being asked to fund that too.

Where does Germany ACTUALLY get a say? Seems like weapon integration is the only thing France is offering Germany.

Might as well get in on GCAP, order early and order big, and get them to integrate whatever weapon system Germany thinks they need, it'll still be far cheaper than FCAS and likely flying a decade or two earlier.

>>64176285
>finding 30%+
Funding 30%+

>>64176169
nope, the frogs aren't that advanced. It's all posturing from their part. Remember how they claimed their Spectra EW would be able to defeat EVERYTHING you could throw at the jet, and the rafale was immediately downed by the export variant of the chink missile? They are all talk and no trousers.

Why are euro troons fighting each other? You're all equally brown, poor and irrelevant.

>>64176283
L2read Mohamed. France wants total lead of the aircraft pilar. Not 80% of the whole FCAS program.

>>honhonhon we'll let you decide the color of the screw!
Considering the skill of the german's Aerospace industry, it is already enough.

>>64176285
Fund 30% and get 30% if the work, this doesnt sound unfair?

>>64176295
The US is 41% white, worships blacks, export faggotry, trannies and is a slave of Israel. Stay in your lane.

>>64176300
From what I've heard they're being offered 20% workshare at most

>>64176301
And yet you came to kiss Trump's ass like the pathetic faggots you are, lol.

>>64176304
It's even less. 15% workshare of non technical aspects.

>>64176305
>zimmerman

>>64176311
kek, the eternal mutt can't escape their overlords even in the media.

>>64176304
That can be negociated. The real problem from Dassault POV is that they're being asked to turn over tech that they developped and funded on their own

>>64176297
>L2read Mohamed. France wants total lead of the aircraft pilar. Not 80% of the whole FCAS program.
>actual mohamed has to resort to blatant lies
lmao, I accept your defeat. We'll fly the GCAP while you'll fly the rafail and hope you'll never meed a jf-17 or any other third gen fighters.

>>64176316
>The real problem from Dassault POV is that they're being asked to turn over tech that they developped and funded on their own
The alternative is you get no money and you will never have a 6th gen. So either shut the fuck up and accept, or shut the fuck up and stop complaining.

>>64175851 (OP)
>france doing india level political fuckery in mic dealings
Many such cases

>>64176328
>give us your tech or else
Hmm ok..

>>64176316
If Fagassault doesn't want to share their tech they can easily reduce the amount of money requested to Germany. Instead of paying 30% of the project they can pay 5-10%. I mean, it couldn't be that France wants the FULL amount of Germany's money without having to return anything, right? Not even the kikes are such kikes.
Look at the GCAP, they let Italy in even if it's a dwarf compared to Japan and the UK and there haven't been any complaints.

>>64176323
>We'll fly the GCAP

Sure Nigel. Even your own authorities don't believe it. The NISTA just labelled the program as red.

>>64176346
You don't even know how the traffic light NISTA risk grading system work. You progress from a project where you start with a lot of uncertainty (red) through assessed and categorised risks (Amber) to understood and mitigated risks (Green). Or in American parlance, from Unknown Unknowns, to known unknowns, to known knowns.
As much as you hate to see it the GCAP program is sailing smoothly. And it's the same reason not only Saudi Arabia but we have a double digit number of countries that have now asked to be partners (they won't be allowed) of the program.

>>64176344
>they let Italy in
And would you look at that, they dont share the tech

>>64175895
That's their actual size

>>64176356
>post screenshot of article
>dosn't post link to articale
faggot

>>64176356
Not *fully* sharing at an early stage, which will obviously be worked on since the UK isn't the only one who will provide the tech for the GCAP and the current program for the full scale production will result in a de-facto tech transfer. Meanwhile the FCAS isn't even at the stage where they can complain about how much tech is being transferred, since you're still twirling your thumbs.

>>64176372
Like OP you mean? You're more than capable of typing a few words in google.

>>64176244
>What does the French PM do?
Make the budget
>opposition gets to sit in prime minister seat
No, Macron can appoint a new one, but if parlement keeps forcing their resignation then the French government will be utterly buck broken

>>64176376
OR big countries dont want to share their tech edge with minows, and wont do it no matter how much complaining they get.

>>64176392
>>64176356
>https://www.rolls-royce.com/products-and-services/defence/future_combat_air_capability/tempest/gcap-power-and-propulsion.aspx
His remarks are too vague and we don't know if they were aimed at a particular sector of the industry or some export restriction by the Government. One of the most important aspect of the new jet will be the engines and we already know the JV between RR, IHI Corp and Avio Aero is progressing smoothly, fully sharing their technology.
>OR big countries dont want to share their tech edge with minows
which is not what is happening with the GCAP and didn't even happen with the F-35. Who is the Minion in the GCAP, Italy? Sure, but they are a tier 1 F-35 operator who make wings and a lot of the sensors for both that and the EF. While France keeps the few technologies they have tight and burns their bridges everyone else is learning to share and moving forward.

>>64176166
>food analogy

>>64176376
I'd like to see this wop try and butt heads with Lammy

Lmao it took literally 1(one) decade of browning to collapse western European civilization and living standards.
We are living to the second fall of Rome but nobody gives a duck and they are just apathetically watching and flinging shut at each other on the net.
Half bigger historians will have a fielday with the dusk of the cumskin civilization.

>>64176413
wouldn't go too well, apparently he's 1.96cm tall

>>64176416
>>64176301

>>64176376
France and Germany have more experience with fifth gens than the GCAP partners (UK, Italy and Japan), where none of the companies involved (BAE, Leonardo or Mitsubishi) have any experience as part of the original JSF design program or assembling F-35s locally

>>64176416
back to >>>/pol/

>>64176427
Anons used to put effort in their baits in the past.

>>64176427
>>64172711
>>64159691
At least get a different script this time

Why not just form a new international company and pour all the technological expertise into it? That way they won't "share" tech, but will be able to employ it through the company. The current project seems like a mishmash of companies doing whatever the fuck and just complaining to each other about patent rights.

>>64176392
unlikely and highly counterproductive, since leonardo and its associate companies like avio and etl are critical in the development and construction of many components, software and electronics above all, which work for shit if you don't give the exact specs for the frame, engines, and ancillary systems.

>>64176433
the one stirring shit here is dassault, which is screeching and malding at everyone else while demanding funds from other countries. reminder that they threatened belgium to kick them out their program if they buy f-35s from lockmart

>>64176420
Lammy is BAME British with impressive strong on defence credentials

Who will have a real 6th gen fighter?
UK, Japan and Italy who were all initial members of the F-35 5th gen JSF program, or France, Germany and Spain who have zero experience with anything beyond 4th gen?

>>64176433
you mean like, uh, i dunno, FUCKING PANAVIA? yeah, we have that one already. turns out, it's all about politics, something you ameriturds will never understand.

>>64176443
Lmao
Dassault is straight up asking to get rid of Germany behind not-so-closed doors.

>>64176433
GCAP has GIGO (GCAP International Government Organisation) and Edgewing.

GIGO being the trilateral governmental body making decisions on behalf of their respective countries, and Edgewing (made up of the major industrial partners; BAE Systems, Japan Aircraft Industrial Enhancement Co Ltd (JAIEC), and Leonardo) being the trilateral business venture tasked with designing, developing, manufacturing, and ongoing lifetime support. Each of the prime contractors hold a 33.3% stake in the company.

>>64176457
nope, it's asking for Germany to pay and not receive anything in return.

>>64176465
Dassault would rather not have to deal with german demands at all, it only the politicians who are insisting for a joint program

>>64176477
that's because frogs are arrogant fucks who can't see reality. without germany money the fcas will never fly.

>>64175964
>Why didn't the country renowned for pen whipping everything not find an issue with French companies
Like asking what blind people think of meteor showers

>>64176465
the issue being that the Germans aren't paying now due to locking payment behind commissions, a parliamentary vote and then a lengthy bureaucratic process.
despite pledging to invest heavily into defense
so now progress is being funded by the French and Spanish with the promise that the Germans will pay their next round of funding at some point
so why let Germany keep their part of the work share if they can't be bothered to pay on time?

>china already showing off its new 6th gen stealth fighters
>the west hopes to deliver mockups in 2036
what a sad state of affairs

>>64176485
No one asked for you to be here you chinkshill bug

>>64176485
>chinks think 6th gen means tailless
lmao

>>64176485
>ling ling summoned

>>64176485
Reminder, NGAD had flying demonstrators back in 2019-20.

>>64176491
I'm just here to laugh at the west shooting itself on the foot (again)

>>64176497
>>64176485
>the west hopes to deliver mockups in 2036
Leaving aside the chinks can't create anything, their J-20 and J-35 are barely 4th gen. And being tailless is not being 6th gen. The GCAP prototype will fly by 2027.
China has no advanced radars capable of acting as AWACS, meaning they don't even have a 5th jen aircraft
China doesn't even have a functioning DASS system.

>>64176512
>>64176497
whoops.

>>64176497
yeah

>>64176497
>>64176512
>>64176516
Stop spamming

>>64176516
>>64176512
>>64176497
>>64176485
So China finally managed to copy the US designs from the 70s?

Remember: https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/64173798

Reminder, chinkshill is a mirpuri living in bongland

It's amazing how you retarded niggers keep falling for the same bait again and again

>>64176457
>>64176477
The Dassault CEO is surprisingly based and sovereignty pilled.

>Be eastern yuropoor
>Make a shitpost thread about the same topic that was made 100 times already on /k/
>Take a nap
>wake up
>140 posts

>>64176602
Unabashed opportunism is not based, and dassault could give less of a shit about france in general. What they want is absolute monopoly over central european procurement, and they won't stop until BAE, airbus, saab and avio are either extinct or assimilated. Luckily they are blunt as a brick wall too arrogant for subtleties. They kinda remind me of chinks in that regard

>>64176682
>and they won't stop until BAE, airbus, saab and avio are either extinct or assimilated
The funny thing is that Dassault is becomin the weakest MIC in Europe.

>demanding to be given sole leadership over the project
Generally it's a good idea. In most things you can't have two cooks in the kitchen. it's the same thing with other stuff. You don't have two presidents in a country. You don't have two CEOs in a company (or you do if you're BlackBerry, but they are dead kek).
Trying to have multiple leaders is just what makes things aimless, wastes time and energy on bullshit. At best it becomes a designed by committee bullshit product, just with even more wasted resources and time.

>>64176698
Then the country with the sole leadership can also be the sole country to finance the project. If it ever becomes a reality and the price/performance will be lower than the GCAP/F-47 we'll buy it.

>>64176285
>While finding 30%+ of the entire program.
>Where does Germany ACTUALLY get a say?
They get work for their MIC

>>64176721
>dassault doesn't want to give parnters geo-returns
No they don't get any work.

>>64176698
What is the incentive for another country to fund such a project if they don't get a technology transfer or get a say on the specification of the end product?

>>64175906
Get's fucked over by ameritard autism instead
congratulations, you played yourself

>>64176698
It's called joint program, you know what that means? If you want to play by yourself, use your own money

>>64176735
A 30% discount on purchase sounds fair to me.

>>64176762
But that isn't being offered and you know it.

>>64176682
What they want is absolute monopoly over central european procurement, and they won't stop until BAE, airbus, saab and avio are either extinct or assimilated.
Projection much.
Dassault is extremely reliant on its fighters to keep business afloat, it's their lifeline, it's not a matter of domination but of survival. If the SCAF program goes the same way as things like the Eurofighter, A400M or Lord forbid, the Eurodrone it could very well spell doom to this not so big corporation while Airbus can perfectly brush it off like it brushed off the issue all those those cited programs had. And yes the Eurofighter and and A400M are really fine airfacts but were terrible programs alltogether, plagued with issues and scandals so when Spain and Belgium barg in and the very very first worlds they have for this incredibly high stakes project are "industrial return/ job creation" I can very well picture how palid the Dassaut's leads were getting.
Worth noting that Eric Trappier, Dassault CEO, officially denied this 80% claim and don't deny that german can do some really good stuff nor is that chauvinistic. He openly said that he would transfer and create some factories in the USA if Trump had hit the European aviation industry with tarrif so I doubt he give that much of a fuck if the GOOD krauts and gringos companies get to do their parts WELL.

So when Airbus said they would change the way they approach those multinational projects exactly?

>>64176781
It shoud be offered.

>>64176762
>pay for 33.3% of the project (50+ billions)
>end up with barely 30% discount
LMAO

Now that the FCAS is dead. How will each of the GCAP members name their national variants?

>>64176416
>muh fall of rome
Stop embarrassing yourself you historically illiterate retard.

>>64175975
Her and Tusk literally drove the bongoloids out the EU, what fucking retards

>>64175975
Well yeah she was a Soviet plant in all but name

>>64176346
Kek GCAP is actually seemingly doing good from what we can see
No need to lash out at the bongs/wops/nips because you retards can't get your shit together

>>64175851 (OP)
FRENCH NIGGERS

>>64176433
They do that all the time?

>>64175918
> the EU 95% on average
Only among boomers. When I go outside I feel like a minority in my own city (sponsored by le based and trad CDU boomers)

People in multiple democracies have been shown a willingness and an inclination to hand over unlimited power to corrupt morons who will destroy their own country for profit, it makes sense that France is nervous about other countries going full 'merica and destroying a multinational defense project for the lulz

>>64176923
not in my case

>>64176965
You might want to take a look at the state of affairs the globe over if you believe this is some kind of problem with democracies
You might be shocked to learn it gets a lot fucking worse in undemocratic systems without a porous society

>>64176923
>I feel like a minority
because you are, aziz

>>64176732
They do get the work

>>64176735
Creating work for local MIC, i.e. some of the stuff in the final product will be yours or made by you. There's a ton of value in that, even if you don't control the overall direction.

>>64177120
that's peanuts. you can make up jobs in other sectors on a whim if you really need to lower unemployement. but the fact that you don't tailor your airplanes to your needs when it comes to defense, that's bad, really bad, especially after you pour so much resources in it.

>>64177120
>some of the stuff in the final product
>after footing 1/3 of the bill of the entire project.
And you subhuman frogs still don't see the problem?

>>64176923
>t. first generation immigrant from turkeystan

>>64176821
Still a big fan of the Tempest name in general

>>64176821
Uk: Tempest
Italy: Doesn't use names so it will get a code like the F-2000A or the PA-200
Japan: Reppu

Hijacking this thread to talk about the GCAP. What type of engine do you think it'll use? We already know the NGAD is gonna use the XA103, is Rolls Royce gonna be able to come close to GE with help from the Japs?

>>64177326
They are building a new engine together with IHI corp and Avio Aero. Kinda what they did with the tornado and typhoon

>>64175851 (OP)
France acting like Gustavo Fring getting the Germans to pay for the super lab.

>>64177334
Isn't Avio owned by GE? You think they'll be able to do some tech transfer from the XA103 or will they have to start from scratch?

>>64175915
> t. Pierre Beßon from Champagne länder

>>64177364
If I knew such things I probably wouldn't be on 4chan at 10 in the morning

>>64175928
Maybe they can join the Swedish one?

>>64175964
France actually tried their usual tricks during the attempted Fincantieri/Naval Group merger, but the Italian government incredibly understood that it would end up as every other "partnership" with France (i.e. unkept promises of equal stakes and fair government intervention at first and then all high-value workshare gets moved to Paris).

>>64177416
There is no swedish 6th gen program

>>64175878
And then when the French workers go on strike the project dies a slow and expensive death. If it ever does get completed the replacement parts coming from the French logistics system will seem like miracles when they finally arrive years later.

this man turned france into a self isolationist tryhard nation of arrogant backstabbers. his policies still echo well into the 21th century and he's solely responsible for the most famous french stereotype: being stuck up assholes.

>>64177665
>turned france into a self isolationist tryhard nation
How is that a bad thing?

>france france france!

can't germany just be just as obstinate and let everyone pay for a 30 year long boondoggle? Thats what the german politicians should do.

>>64175884
Is this before or after the muslim takeover?

>>64177665
The problem with the frogs isn't that they want to be independent in defence etc, it's that they are arrogant fucktards who can't ever find the middle ground in anything.

>>64177680
>tryhard
This is a derogatory word.

>>64177525
Flygsystem 2020 technically still exists, but is on hold until ~2030.

They're still looking at what they want to do, upgrade Gripen or do a clean sheet new design, or partner up with someone else.

>>64177476
there were never any plans of merger between Naval Group and Fincantieri, just joint ventures (Naviris) at best
imagine being so butthurt you have to make shit up lol

France and Germany can just never do joint projects together it literally always turns into a shitshow because they both think they are in charge. You can have France and Britain or Germany, Italy and Britain or France Italy and Britain but not Germany and France.

This is also why the EU Army concept is such a meme.

>>64177665
>assmad
Lol
His policies can be summed up as "never rely on the US for your defence, because sooner or later they'll try to put you on a leash".
You're mad because he was right.

>>64175918
only in shithole cities. In real America it's 99.5% white

>>64178177
>real America
>less than 20% of the population
oh okay

>>64178167
what does exploiting other countries at every opportunity and not having any concept of reciprocity has to do with that? frogs are basically russians but with darker skin. you're the same down to calling anyone you backstabbed and exploited butthurt and slaves of US because this is the only relation you can understand.

>>64176754
>pay americans
>get a badass fighter jet
>pay french
>get your funds stolen, your requests ignored and your weapons sold to your enemies while paying triple the amount
there's a reason pajeets are france's most reliable trading partners.

>>64178167
So far the US has proven itself to be THE premiere military contractor in the entire world, with its development in aerospace engineering, electronics and alloys, that entire continents worth of turd worlders still curse at the f-35 as if it was some kind of invincible evil spirit.
Meanwhile, your obsession over needing a nuclear arsenal and a blue water fleet with catobar to protect your half forgotten glorified sand dunes in the pacific you call islands have eaten up much of your budget, to the point where your domestic security is lackluster and your army is in shambles. Moreover, you dance to the tunes of industrialists that forcefeed you shoddy hardware the same way you forcefeed your geese for foie gras. And now what do you have? Some obsolete 3rd gen fighter that got humiliated in a squabble the other side of the world, and the knowledge that fucking italy is militarily stronger than you. But hey, at least you're "indipendent " from cheeto man and his cronies, right?

>>64178177
Lmaoing at your cope. Even the fucking wildlands are full of spics, which your census considers white

>>64178406
>which your census considers white
that's completely untrue, even the tiniest admixture precludes you from being counted as non hispanic white, which is what your favorite percentage numbers always point to

>>64176253
that's the president

>>64175922
>a fighter that doesn't suit our needs
What is your needs? No fighter jet will make you more apt at fucking over europe for your own gain, and that's all you worthless krauts ever do.

>>64178242
>I get my opinions from /k/iddies
Ah yes, poor Germany is a victim and totally not constantly trying to jew everyone while ensuring any joint program becomes a) terribly managed and b) fucks over export prospects because of their tism.
>MGCS
>tiger MK3
>Maritime patrol aircraft
>eurodrone
All fucked over by germs.
Right now, Dassault and France just want Germany OUT of the program.
>muh monies
There are gulf states right now just waiting for Germany to pull out to invest instead, because they'll never be involved in a program where Germany holds any kind of export control.

>>64175895
>>64176357
>british isles
>there's clearly defined shadows from the sun
you retards.
If it was the british isles then it would be overcast and there would be no sun. They're probably flying over Australia or some other small commonwealth country

>>64178437
Post flag so I can accurately insult your subhuman shithole.

>>64178454
>g*rman
>Calling other people subhuman
lol, lmao

>>64178294
I'm sure Ukraine very much enjoys the idea of not being able to use certain hardware (paid for by Europe btw) because orange retard likes to kiss Putin's ass :)

>>64178438
>frognigger seethes about germany and dreams about sucking on the arab oil tit
pottery

>>64178492
when will Ukraine be allowed to strike russia using those storm shadow missiles then?

>>64178424
Your cope is delicious., mutt.

>>64178475
>Doesn't post flag
You know why.

>>64178508
you're literally not allowed to even know how mutted you are in the paris khaliphate, dysgenic subhuman

>>64178424
Not only are hispanics considered white, in the US non criminal race identification is based on voluntary statements, therefore most spics will call themselves white.

>>64178507
>The missile relies on classified US-owned cartographic data, using Terrain Contour Matching or TERCOM, to guide the missile to the target. This gives the US government veto of any sales to foreign countries under ITAR.
not with orange man in office sadly

>>64178516
>Not only are hispanics considered white
they're not, refer to the point about non hispanic whites in >>64178424, macaco

>>64178512
>posts evidence of even the most white americans being part niggers
Cool, too bad here in Europe, whites are 100% white.

>>64178528
>too bad here in Europe, whites are 100% white.
Lmao, don't look up african admixture in European genes

>>64178523
You're having a meltdown over being proven wrong, take deep breaths.
Btw, the US considers slavs, arabs, hispanics, and other north africans as white.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

>>64178539
you're repeating the same falsehood because ignoring my point about non hispanic whites is all you can do.

>>64178492
That's a pow that's very much shared by europe. Retard. Everyone is scared shitless of a nuclear retaliation, now more than ever considering how far putin was willing to go for this little vanity project of his. That's why they don't use cruise missiles against moscow, or why they don't engage russian troops outside of the eastern front, or why they don't attack belarus

>>64178547
>falsehood
>literally posted irrefutable evidence supporting my claims
I accept your defeat. Have fun becoming an irrelevant country in the next 50 years the same way it happened to the UK.

>>64177139
>you can make up jobs in other sectors on a whim if you really need to lower unemployement
It's not about employment numbers, it's about the relevant industries keeping their work, inter-generational knowledge transfer, know-how and so on. In a ton of sectors it's "use it or lose it" type of deal. As in "you've stopped making jet engines? well, that means that you've lost the ability to make them". Kinda like how RU tank making got fucked up after they've stopped doing full scale production of tanks by mid 90s and had to fall back on reusing old hulls, so that once they've actually tried to get production of new tank (T-14) it crashed and burned hard. If you want a non-retarded (non-russian) example, then you can check up a ton of examples in US and UK MIC and aerospace industries, where engines which were built 50 years ago can't be made right now and would require re-developing them from scratch, or how new parts can't be made for Challenger 2 tanks and so on.

>>64177665
>nation of arrogant backstabbers
He didn't turn France into US of A

>>64175851 (OP)
>FCAS
pronounced "FUCKASS" of course

I see the project for a new, united Europe not reliant on the US for defense is going well

>>64176172
>build an independent military or aeronautical industry
>Now, either pay up or fuck off
bit of a mixed message pierre

>>64178167
he sure relied on the US for defence when they handed him his entire country back

>>64175918
Croatia currently has 100k indians and filipinos in a 3.8 million country

>>64178294

I can't blame you anon for pretending the last 10 months aren't real but it might be more accurate to say the US HAD an unimpeachable reputation as the free world's arms dealer and providing anyone with an End User Certificate with better legacy technical support than fucking snap-on,

The Trump cabinet's fuckery with Ukraine military aid (especially the new stories about them cutting technical support for missile systems) and the schizophrenic foreign policy like telling Europe to defend themselves then having Hegseth crying about them spending money on their own MIC instead of buying US. I don't think the rot is fully set in and could be fully reversed with a firm hand but if it stays like this for another 3 years (and if whoever is president next is equally scatterbrained) then it will be highly damaging since US soft power and arms exports are based on stability, reliability and not fucking over allies/customers. Having the POTUS radically change his foreign policy every week is a ticking time bomb like a smoke break at a Russian oil depot.

>>64178500
Better them than sabotaging huns, unironically.
And once it's done (and it may be done as early as tomorrow's meeting with Macron regarding the future of the project), France will have something, the huns will be begging to be anyone else's bitch.

The amount of misinformation, blatant butthurt lies and downplay of both france's and germany's aerospace industry in this thread is utterly hilarious. If there's two nations in Europe that can manage a proper 6th gen it's them.

I pray for a swift resolution of their differences. With GCAP being a near zero experience project it's gonna be grim for European military Aircraft otherwise.

>>64178832
france backstabs its "allies" more times monthly than USA has in its entire existence

>>64178584
>Have fun becoming an irrelevant country in the next 50 years the same way it happened to the UK.
Oh no, imagine becoming what france has always been.

>>64179850
Already happening. There are a lot of old guard who never knew any different still hoping (coping) "if we just sit out the next 3.5 years and nod and stay quiet things will go back to normal", but a growing part is making exit plans.

Kind of like being stuck on a sailing trip except last night your friend - who happens to own the boat - started a fight and said some very nasty things. Once we get to the next port we're going our separate ways. Until then it's smile and nod (because of the implication).

>>64175851 (OP)
Good for them.
The HK killed the French small arms industry, and the MGCS goes the usual way while KMW/RHM monopolise the market for decades to come.
At least the aviation won't be subjected to the blatant IP robbery and subsequent attrition.

>>64180379
Please refer back to >>64176429

>>64180434
Why don't the Frogs use this as an argument? Krauts already killed their small arms and land systems industries, now those greedy fucks want a share of the air as well?

>>64180379
>If there's two nations in Europe that can manage a proper 6th gen it's them.
There aren't.

>>64176532
>gattsu
completely buck broken by the election

>>64180379
In other words, >>64176427

>>64181262
Pretty funny how all these geopol zoomer youtubers are all thirdies isn't it

>>64180379
Japan, Italy and the UK literally are the only 3 countries outside of the US to build F-35s. And Japan even invented the RAM coating the US uses. GCAP will also obviously have this coating, the FCAS will have plain paint like the chink jets.

>>64181470
>And Japan even invented the RAM coating the US uses.
Correction, Japan made some of the composite fiber base material, that a US company then treats and forms it into specific shapes for the F-22s stealth.

AFAIK the F-35/B-21 uses a different coating, and I think the F-22 coating may have gotten upgrades over the years and may or may not still use the Japanese product.

Though overall I agree, Japan and the UK, as well as Italy, have the most experience with 5th gen aircraft development outside of the US and maybe China.

>>64180959
Because "it's not about France, it's about the European Union". French politicians are traitors.

>>64179850
Regardless of Trump's retardations, the free world relies on the US for it's technology and overall competency. We in America are genuinely sick of European free riding, and no one cares if that makes you cry. It will take Europe decades to mimic a fifth of what the US can do today, and you will go broke while your quality of life plummets as it happens. The East Asians have no choice but to rely on the US for any hope against the Chinese, we all know the Europeans would be completely useless. This could've been avoided but modern Europeans are way more retarded than their ancestors.

>>64176102
>>64176602
It's quite simple. Trappier knows how to manage a company. He knows how to manage a project. As an IT project manager, I can 200% relate to what he's saying here. Have a clear decision maker if you want your project to succeed. Not multiple with no clear defined lines. Not the clusterfuck that is going on with government melding just to satisfy political shit by retarded politics. It's quite simple, he doesn't want ULA 2.0, where both governments decide that this (shitty) subcontractor gets workshare because "it's in my totally-very-special territory where I got elected and I need (dunk) unemployed retards to get some work so I can raise local taxes and shit" or because the CEO of the nephew of whoever got elected. He doesn't want ULA 2.0, that's all you have to understand, and he knows very well it'll go that way if shit stays as-is.
Listen/read what he's saying in the recent earning Q/A. It's just common sense for anyone that ever had to manage a project or had to live with what I described above. Simple as. 10/10 CEO would invest in if the broader mememarkets weren't in a clown world bubble propped by retarded zoomers buying anything at any price through their Robinshit App.
https://youtu.be/LPZi3GasXZw?feature=shared&t=396

>>64182443
>We in America are genuinely sick of European free riding
such a thing never existed

>>64182457
European militaries have become a complete joke over the last 30 years. You can't even provide Ukraine security guarantees without the US providing a c&c backbone and air umbrella. Just get on your knees and beg Papa Trump to forgive you.

>>64182457
>such a thing never existed
well then Europe should have no problem supplying Ukraine with all its munitions needs while the US sorts out China
I'm sure you have a massive stockpile of weapons and ammo for Ukraine tonuse

>>64182503
>European militaries have become a complete joke over the last 30 years
They are literally more combat ready and better equipped than they were 30 years ago.
>worshipping a pedophile
lmao
>>64182510
80% of the aid to ukr came from the EU.

>>64182456
please refer back to >>64176429 for the third time

>>64175975
Allowing former East Germans to run for political office in a unified Germany was a mistake

>>64175878

you forgot to mention that they also want their design requirements for the plane to take priority.

Essentially a french plane, built and designed in france sponsored by Germany and Spain by 2/3.

> Mon dieu why are the allemands so complicated?!

>>64175851 (OP)
Doesn't this happen every time anyone tries to collaborate with the French?

>>64182518
>80%
Lol no
More like 60%

And the US sent most of the ammo and hardware. And even then a lot of European contributions were US-made weapons. Even now European countries are buying American stockpiles to send to Ukraine.

Look, I'm not American and I'm not interested in waving the stars and stripes. It's just a fucking fact that NATO Europe was caught with its pants totally off on Feb 2022. Face the facts.

>>64182557
>Pasta+Frog: werks
>Paella+Frog: werks
>Bongs+Frogs: werks and SCALPShadowpilled
>Krauts+Frog: doesn't werk
Something here can be singled-out.

>>64182574
Sure, but it was not "free riding". Having a weak and US-dependent Europe is literally the main aim of the US in Europe since the end of WW2. Taco is now trying to portray this as if it's us that wanted to be lazy to garner support any way he can and the lowest IQ americans gobble it up.
Once the orange freak is dead you can bet your ass the US is once again going to try and make the EU not consider being self reliant. And sadly our politicians will welcome that chance immediately

>>64182585
Yeah but a lot of those countries with previous experience working with the french, they'll generally opt for working with someone else if given the chance.

>>64182585
Also
>Fries (because REAL FREEDOM FRIES are BELGIANS and certainly not french)+Frog: werks

>>64182585
You almost were onto something, too bad that the frogs try their underhanded tactics every single time. Other countries either concede like Spain, others fight back like the UK and Italy. Germany is once again fighting back.

>>64182518
German combat readiness is the biggest joke in defense discussion, please don't be delusional. The aid eu sends to Ukraine is either American in origin or equivalent to what North Korea supplies Russia.
>>64182600
Why would the US want a weak Europe who relies on our tax dollars for their quality of life? The amount Europe spends on American equipment doesn't make up for what America spends in European interests. The next administration won't undo what Trump has done. European increased government spending with your stagnating economies will be a pleasure to watch over the next decade

>>64182689
Because an independent Europe, both militarly and politically would become a possible competitor to the US, not to mention it would hinder the sales of american military products. Look at Turkey, they refused them the f-35 after the s400 thing and now they are trying to make their own everything. If you tought France was a stuck up pain in the ass, imagine if every single country in Europe decides to act like them only buying EU products and distancing themselves from the US politically.
The US doesn't want allies, it wants subjects

>>64182600
>Having a weak and US-dependent Europe is literally the main aim of the US in Europe since the end of WW2
even if we totally ignore the entire fucking Cold War and, for your sake, restrict your comment to the 90s, you're still hilariously wrong because you're talking out of your ass, kid
you don't even know how the 2% NATO figure came about, and it shows
this is how such conspiracy theories come up: ignorant fools trying to build theories offzeroknowledge

or outright dezinformatsia

>>64182801
>no arguments
>deflecting
I accept your defeat

>>64177008
>>64177186
Ach boomer köter, immernoch am versuchen Deutschlands Image aufrecht zu erhalten?

>>64182814
>ESL turdie
>anti-American messaging
but of course

>>64182456
I wonder how much he hates politicians for meddling in business non-stop. But then again politicians also provide sales.

>>64182863
You're literally browner than me, you're american. Alt for Norge

>>64178516
2,7 and 15 could be actually """"white""""

>>64182456
Leaving aside the fact that it's a pasta, The matter is simple, France doesn't have neither the technology nor the money to go ahead with the project alone, so they can either stop being unreasonable and work with their partners, or they can simply say goodbye to the money and be left with the worst 4th gen fighter of the last 60 years, the rafale.

please please please let the krauts throw a shitfit and go with Saab to build their new fighter, it would be so fucking funny

>>64182888
Only for an american

>>64182930
they're whiter than the average frog or shitalian

>>64182939
You think that because in the US it's common to raceswap people in Hollywood. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Obama was white.

>>64182585
>Bongs
Eh, frogs have to deal with bongs because they have a shitload of industry expertise on these ventures, and the bongs frequently basically propped up French deployment logistics
If Pierre wants to push Nigel about he gonna get told to go fuck himself, because he has no leverage

>>64182930
No not really, at a glance is pic relates """"white"""""

>>64182585
>SCALPShadowpilled
it was a subpar product; all three nations could have been using Taurus but France insisted on using their missile body.
Right now FCASW is also complicated by the French having wildly different requirements so now there might be as many as six different variants of what could be essentially one missile, but the Brits have no choice because there isn't any other European cruise missile maker. Absolutely none.

Generally there's just zero upside to working with the frogs.

>>64182944
Nobody who looked like picrel in the US would get away with being called "white", other than in liberal "I think therefore I am" land

>>64183006
Alright I'll ask you instead
>>64182976
???

>>64182976
Yes, he has dark hair and tanned skin but his physiognomy is clearly european white. Meanwhile every single person in >>64178516 is legally considered white in the US when their looks is literally american goblino mutt tier.
>>64183006
>cherrypicking some southern italian wop. Italy is actually two countries in a trenchcoat.

>>64183034
White, duh

>>64183070
>Italy is actually mutt
Concession accepted

>>64182976
>>64183006
>>64183090
>>64183070
/pol/tards should be careful with their "who is white" doll games. If you exclude us italians you can't go all we wuz romanz n illuminated n shieet anymore.

>>64183070
Every single person in that photo is horribly ugly, which isn't exactly helping your judgement I'm sure
Anyway, is pic related """"white"""'?

>>64183099
skull physiognomy and eyes don't make me recognize her as white. What is she? Kurd?

>>64183112
Berber
They have paler skin than our literal aryan r1b guy though right?

>>64183094
I don't really have a problem with both recognising SPQR achievements and accepting that Italy has been pretty mutt since Paul the "ackshually I'm Roman" Apostle, I'm just pointing out to italianon that a lot of Italians would resemble those mugshots

>>64183121
>Berber

>>64183121
>Berber
Descendant of European rapeslaves maybe

>>64183126
>I'm just pointing out to italianon that a lot of Italians would resemble those mugshots
You think I'm italian?

>>64183128
Those people are not Imazighen, but yes berber is used in a way that expands multiple ethnic groups
I don't know if those others are definitely berbers, but my pictures are

>>64183135
You are a legitimate retard
Have an very famous Pashtun

>>64183137
Not really
I mostly think you're an idiot

>>64183126
>Italy has been pretty mutt
Not in the sense that you americans think. Any of the cherrypicked images that /pol/troons like to post are always from sicilians and other people from the southernmost regions of our country. Go to any other central and norther region of Italy and the natives don't even look remotely like the terroni.

>>64183157
>the south of Italy is pretty mutt
I agree

>>64183155
Oh, turns out I'm a fucking retard too

>>64183162
you consider her white? Please stop lying to yourself.

>>64183160
Yeah, that is more accurate.

>>64183169
>white
No, but I consider her eyes lighter than dark featured man I posted, she's clearly not european
As for the 2 african girls I posted, they're paler in just about every single feature, do you think they are they white?

>>64183195
No because you can't take a cherrypicked individual when deciding if a race is white or not. You posted a north african girl who (with obvious makeup) looks white, but I bet if you took any of her male blood relatives they would look arab since they are arab. And I don't even know why the shift is alway about being "white" instead of european. It's only americans who are obsessed with being white when the proper definition wouldn't even allow anyone outside of the UK.

>>64183226
>It's only americans
It was a non-american who started this whole segue

>>64183162
Hey, I've read that ShindoL H mango

>>64183226
>>no because...
So you can't use the persons literal features (that are prevelant across their ethnic group also) to say if they fit a category about their features, like white skin?
>native berber
>arab
Try harder anon
Anyway this dude is the founding fathers definition of a white man, also for that matter the closest type of person to those the nazis loved

>>64183251
>>64183226
By the way, dark features and olive skin is a common noted thing among Welsh, who are probably the most european R1b people on earth
>this olive man is white
>this white girl is brown
You see my objections to these classifications?

>>64180434
>HK killed the French small arms industry
Nonsense. The french killed it by ordering HK instead of Verney Carron. At market price and without paying jack shit for the development of HK, mind you. Also the economic relevance of small arms is tiny.