Thread 64199586

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beDT-8EvBew
Beretta and Sako are the 2 main competitors for the UK next service rifle, Beretta offering the NARP and SAKO offering the M-23.
Which one do you think will win?

>Beretta AR vs Beretta-owned company's AR
Riveting, my dude.

Is that official? Seems like there are much more obvious options being ignored if these two are in the lead. Like I don't even like the 416, but logistically and strategically its the best choice, as two of their 5 closest neighbours use it and its a well established proven design. Similarly both Denmark and the Dutch use the C8, which the bongs have already decades of (admittedly small) institutional familiarity with. And again you've got the SR15, which is already in increasingly common use; since the royal marines can be seen using it it clearly isn't strictly issued to the ranger regiment. Obviously the chosen design will be an AR, that much was preordained, but with that said it doesn't make sense to go with these hipster ARs.

>>64199644
BDT UK, H&K, SIG Sauer and Knights Armament Company are known to be submitting proposals. Others are also involved but have yet to be named publicly.

BDT UK (Berretta's UK arm) are apparently submitting the NARP and Sako in some configuration. These are also, if selected, likely to be manufactured in the UK - potentially entirely.

H&K we don't yet know what they're going to bring but have plenty of potential options.

SIG probably the MCX but again they haven't yet specified.

KAC probably the KS-1 in some configuration.

And then whoever else is involved when they finally show something.

>>64199586 (OP)
Beretta
Just no fucking way they're letting their own subsidiary win

>>64199586 (OP)
How is it that that Magpul stock has become the standard on almost every European AR I see nowadays?

>>64199732
Magpul makes good products and surprisingly for some reason *doesn't* charge jewish prices.

>>64199760
Wrong.
>>64199732
Europeans like to suck off American companies.

>>64199586 (OP)
> Narp

>>64199644
>416
HK is so maxed out rn I'm surprised they're even competing.

>>64199784
Lol I remember them coping and saying they'd name it later. Knew they were fos.

>>64199713
I have worked for Tikka in the past. From what I heard Beretta is very hands off in their approach beside having engineers on rotation like if it was a school exchange program. If your company is only having financial issues but the products are good (the issue with Sako and Tikka before being bought) they will only give you a blank check. The same cannot be said for their other subsidiary like Steiner that they have tried to unfuck for the past 15+ years.

>>64199803
>From what I heard Beretta is very hands off in their approach
Maybe they are like that now
In the ARX days they didn't want any competition from Sako

>>64199805
afaik Sako had no plans to develop an assault rifle until 2018.

Dudes, I'm tired. I want the three trillion AR-18/180 variants back. Sure they were operationally the same, but at the barest minimum they had the decency to look distinct. The G36, the L85, the likes of ACR and XM8, even. Just some reason to keep on living.

>>64199586 (OP)
>Beretta and Sako are the 2 main competitors for the UK next service rifle
no they're not. They're just the two being offered through that Beretta's UK distributor

Any chance of the RM277 being submitted?

>>64200030
A chance I guess. You never know. It's a big project to sell a lot of guns to a major military. I expect most if not all European arms manufacturers have some sort of entry as well as a few American ones and possibly even something from the Far East. What has been shown so far have been of standard configuration, but again, you never know what else might turn up

>>64199586 (OP)
what's the deal with companies making ar15s but with square rears?

>>64199586 (OP)
It's the same fucking gun?

>>64201326
The Sako is a piston AR-15, the NARP is more along the lines of an MCX but is a bit prettier, has a quick detachable handguard, and not made by SIG. Beretta likes to show the NARP with an adjustable tube stock for some reason, but it's bufferless. It has provisions for a side charging handle.
Both companies are offering guns in more than one caliber

>>64199732
Because it's the best stock for an AR15 and if you don't use one you are unironically wrong and gay

>>64199586 (OP)
>Beretta
>subsidiary of Beretta
It's all coming up for Beretta

>>64201284
Modern manufacturing techniques with CNC machines - fewer operations and easier to clean up.
The "classic" look for the fencing and reinforcements owes a lot to the fact US mil-spec receivers were forged type

>>64199732
Because it's in the supply chain along with their magazines
At least so far as Britain goes, the Magpul stock ended up being on everything trialled for the UKSF, RM and ASOB contracts regardless of what stock the manufacturers initially submitted the rifles with.

FN should submit their Irregular Warfare Service Rifle concept, in whatever caliber the MoD is looking for.

Or they should just issue out the KAC KS1 to everyone, and by everyone I mean every other soldier that actually matters in the MoD, which is not that many. british military is a joke that will not play a substantial role in future conflicts, like the spanish or italians

>>64200030
didnt it have a dismal accuracy? moving barrel and such

>>64201426
this gun is so sexy just my taste

>>64201426
shoulda been the m7

>>64201426
Their Navy will for like 3 days before they eat all the Torps and AShM they can't handle. The HMS Queen Elizabeth is probably a bigger target for the Russians than the USS Jimmy Carter.
Hey Brits and Nords handle the North Atlantic we gotta protect Central Atlantic shipping a la REFORGER while also protecting the Med and the Pacific

>>64201426
For some strange reason they basically ruled out the KS-1 as is for general issue - probably cost.

>>64201503
>For some strange reason they basically ruled out the KS-1 as is for general issue - probably cost.
Because KAC can't produce tens of thousands of them, and they wont allow licenced manufacturing because they're KAC

>>64199732
>cheap
>lightweight
>good ergos
>looks good
Unironically what more could you want?

>>64201737
sovl

>>64199586 (OP)
Oh they're gonna fuck this up. The NARP is inferior to an AR, and the Sako is just a standard AR (or inferior piston AR).

The UK should do what NZ did; get an AR with the weaknesses fixed.
>lobster-tail extractor
>full-face bolt
>stress-relief lug geometry
>lug 4 delete
>JP enhanced gas rings
>straight gas tube
>field-adjustable gas block
>sand-cut carrier
>hard chrome carrier/bolt finish (or something actually better, which is 99% of the time not true)
Just as a start. If they go with dual ejectors CLOCK THEM WITH LUGS 3 AND 5. Otherwise don't bother. The vast majority of dual-ejector bolts are simply weaker than a single ejector because they thin the material between the lugs.

This is why gun autism is essential, I bet there's fewer than 10 people in the entire UKMOD which could repeat something like the list I just gave.

Or, if staying with a bullpup, Desert Tech WLVRN.

>>64201783
t. small arms solutions

>>64201790
Unironically the head of the British army should call him and SOTAR before buying thousands of ARs.

Also instead of browsing for a product they should publish a spec and have companies compete to that spec, the way they're doing things is backwards. Also forgot from the list;

>>64201783
>blind cam pin hole (HM defense HMB bolt etc.)
Can't believe I forgot that it's actually important.

>>64199766
Cope.

>>64199787
Are they? The only contract HK has right now is the German one afaik and they have huge staffing problems with all the baby boomers retiring now (that’s at least what German media reports)

>>64201813
Project Grayburn is currently in it’s concept phase and aims to define the requirements for a new and reliable next-generation rifle with improved interoperability, as well as taking into consideration whether to retain 5.56 or adopt a successor round like 6.8 Common Cartridge or 6.5mm Creedmoor. With a focus on potentially re-arming British industry for small-arms manufacturing.

The assessment phase of Project Grayburn is expected to happen sometime in 2026.

>>64199586 (OP)
Oh look another episode of Everyone Picks the Wrong Choice.

>>64201835
Having staff problems and being maxed out makes a lot of sense.
Also I can believe it. Oberndorf isn't exactly a prestigious place to live in.

>>64201859
>as well as taking into consideration whether to retain 5.56 or adopt a successor round like 6.8 Common Cartridge or 6.5mm Creedmoor
If they're gonna switch and want more effectiveness;
>neck down 350 legend to 224 (22Max basically)
>shellshock NAS3 cases
85gr 224 VLDs going over 2850 from a 16" barrel. Fits in any receiver and bolt which accommodates 5.56. Maintains low recoil and good MPBR of 5.56 while doing way better in wind/drop/energy retention. Not absurd pressure Sig bullshit. All you need are new magazines which are virtually the same exterior dimensions, just straighter and slightly longer.

NAS3 cases are already price-competitive with brass despite being produced in lower number and being a novel product, they're also lighter. Even if they stick with 5.56 they should switch to a hybrid case which will get cheaper than brass at volume.

>>64200030
Probably not, since the only reason it was ever viable was for bringing the recoil of a full power rifle cartridge down to manageable levels. There's no reason for it with 5.56, and no other country is boomer infested enough to consider a standard issue battle rifle in the modern era.

>>64201453
Yes. It's so bad that it lost to a gun where the handguard falls off every few hundred rounds.

>>64199586 (OP)
>Shitty ugly zoomer AR vs shitty ugly zoomer AR

>>64199732
Good stock.

>>64202187
Zoomers are fighting age men now, anon.

>>64201866
>It's seems my superiority has led to me becoming completely irrelevant

>>64201783
>Or if staying with a bullpup stick with desert tech
No. Why would you recommend the least reliable and least produced bullpup with no modern military use as a replacement? Your vast knowledge of ARs doesn't translate to knowledge of bullpups. Desert tech is just a garbage company.

>>64202561
Not the gun's fault the military is completely useless at choosing new weapons and has been for decades.

>>64202593
>is it possible that my designs not actually as good as i pretend that it is
>no, everyone else must be wrong

>>64202597
In this case, that is actually the case.

>>64202639
post your XCR then

>>64201503
>HMS Queen Elizabeth is probably a bigger target for the Russians than the USS Jimmy Carter.

They'll be too busy looking for the HMS Boris Johnson.

>>64202644
No, you're not allowed to see it after you insulted it.

>>64202667
noguns faggot detected

>>64202670
It's irrelevant, it doesn't exist anymore :0

>>64199586 (OP)
The Sako looks like my new Australia-legal AR15

>>64201866
>Oh man, I wish I had the loser option to the SCAR
Lmao, what are you, a Canadian?

>>64201426
FN finally playing to the "modern FAL" crowd

>>64201426
Man, what a distressingly sexy gun. I really dig the busy/chamfered/anodized design trend. Its silhouette is a lot like the XCR's.
How was the .264 LICC btw?

>>64202748
pump action, yeah?

>>64199586 (OP)
With all the new AR derivatives why do they keep retaining the retarded fucking charging handle deaign?

>>64202925
Zero relation to the FAL, FAL owners, FAL employment, or their preferences. You can tell because it isn't a giant piece of shit.

>>64203069
The AR has the best charging handle. You only use it the first time you load it and during stoppages; and its completely unobtrusive at all other times.

>>64203055
yeah

>>64202918
Nice opinion, did a redditor give it to you?

>>64201383
So two two AR-18s cool. same gun.

>>64201866
Based
Want

>>64203089
You are aware most guns don't have stoppages in the first place?

>>64203088
All I can see is poorfag seethe

>>64204002
If by poorfag you mean the third world countries who still have to use that shit? It ain't me boss. Rifle dead as rhodesia.

>>64203215
Yes, hence why its better for the charging handle to be out of the way.

Completely political decision. Whichever brings more manufacturing jobs to Britain will win.

>>64202565
>gay and wrong opinion
The wlvrn/sabertooth is the most performant bullpup currently. Best trigger, best ergos, very good accuracy, and in 308 it's the class leader for weight by a lot.
I know people had some problems with early MDRX's and the original mag catch on WLVRNs, but DT have fixed all of the things people complained about. The base cycling mechanism is not unreliable, it's actually very reliable.

>>64203148
That stock with an MLOK forend and HK sights would be SEXOOOOOO. Looks a kinda dumb with AR-profile sights.

>>64202918
It didn't lose to the FN entrant in any metric, and still doesn't, it's a superior design.
Instead of informing RA that they don't have BFAs, USSOCOM waited until the solicitation period lapsed and then sent word they were disqualified. RA sent the BFAs before the evaluations actually took place, and they were ignored.
At the time FN already had contracts for a lot of M4 parts and the M249.

>>64203089
>>64204028
NTA, it protrudes outwards as much as any other charging handle, and allows gas to escape the receiver right in front of your face.

One of the reasons eurofags are moving to piston ARs is because they think the health risks of propellant gases outweighs the health risks of decreased reliability. Obviously that's retarded but the point stands; the AR charging handle gases the user, especially with a suppressor.

>>64200055
Trip dubs is yet again confirmed unironically, unfathomably based and knower-of-nothing-pilled.

>>64204053
Piston guns are more reliable liable than DI guns, though. Gassing the user happens with any gun that ejects clouds of gas near the user's face. Only the FS-2000 is gas free, because it ejects gas next to the barrel.

>>64201866
>Chf chrome lined barrel
>No?
Ok nevermind, irrelevant

>>64204077
>Only the FS-2000 is gas free, because it ejects gas next to the barrel.
So does the FAL

>>64199586 (OP)
>it's another ar 5.56 variant

>>64200030
Call me a nogunz faggot (which I am), but how are you supposed to aim down sight in that configuration?

>>64201426
That's a fantastic looking choice. Unique looking,

>>64199586 (OP)
I like the quick swap barrel feature on the narp, I wish they'd release a semi-auto variant for the US market. I'm not really into modern ARs beyond owning them as a practical tool, so it would be nice to be able to have just one rifle with a couple of barrels and be done with it.

>>64204077
>Piston guns are more reliable liable than DI guns, though
No they aren't, they're less reliable. And before you post it I don't give a shit about that retarded HK video with the guy in scuba gear.
>Gassing the user happens with any gun that ejects clouds of gas near the user's face.
You're semi-literate and missed the point of the post.
>Only the FS-2000 is gas free, because it ejects gas next to the barrel.
So does every single piston gun, doesn't matter, the receiver will eventually fill up with propellant gases directly from the barrel during ejection, and those propellent gases will be forced out by the action of the bolt carrier. The AR charging handle (regardless of whether it's a piston or DI gun) creates an opening for the gas to escape right in front of your nose and mouth.

I don't think it's a serious issue, but it's true.

>>64201783
Add 22.5 degree cam rotation to this. Whatever X-delay they choose, the A-delay should be 22.5, not 20.7.

>>64199586 (OP)
This is nearly a month old and they are just two of the contenders. There are more being decided on.

>>64201866
>>64202561
>>64202918
In retrospect it's kind of amazing that throughout the entire SCAR program everyone just assumed it was acceptable to have a reciprocating charging handle. Seems like it should have been a base requirement, before you've even decided what caliber/layout it is, that there's not a piece of metal outside the receiver reciprocating with the carrier.

I want that Beretta grip but can't find it anywhere

>>64204171
Those are backup sights. You have to cant the rifle 45 degrees to see them, otherwise they stay out of the way.

>>64201426
>long stroke
pass

>>64199586 (OP)
Just keep the SA80 the UK doesn’t need a new rifle

What are the requirements? Do they want the big armour defeating rounds like the Americans?
If not then why not just do this >>64204899

>>64201866
Britain is poorfag now, there are economic constraints to consider. Can't be splooging on expensive burger shit.

>>64204966
>What are the requirements?
There are none at the moment as it is in the concept phase where requirements are set and options are explored. The concept phase will run into 2026 where it will transition into the assessment phase.

The main criteria they are assessing at the moment is caliber, layout and interoperability.

>Do they want the big armour defeating rounds like the Americans?
Royal Marines do use 6.5 Creedmoor in their L129a2 DMR, but if you stick with 5.56 NATO you have maximum compatibility with allies and existing logistics.

If you go with 6.8 x 51 mm Sig Fury or 6.5mm Creedmoor you can extend engagement ranges, armour penetration and future proof the rifle.
But also it would mean retooling ammunition production, retraining armourers, more weight per round, more weight pre gun, compatibility issues with allies and logistics headaches.

Also you UK has been burnt before with the when adopting a new no-NATO round. Originally the SA80 was in 4.85×49mm but when NATO selected the FN Herstal SS109 bullet for the 5.56mm the 4.85×49mm round was scraped and all SA80 where re-chambered to 5.56mm.

>>64204966
American soldiers don't even want the big round.

>>64204414
Wouldn't that eject brass right in your face?

>>64203148
Man I wish they still had picatinny uppers

>>64199732
CTR is the best general purpose AR stock.
>Aftermarket for risers, buttpads, etc
>Solid lockup with the friction lock
>Durable as hell
>Slim, low profile, comfortable to use with earpro for most grunts compared to SOPMOD style stocks

>>64204899
>keep the bad rifle
>don't go to a better rifle with similar parts, production methods and manual of arms as all your closest ally nations
Short sightedness can be solved with glasses anon

>>64201453
Literally nobody has ever posted any sort of proof about this poor accuracy. Seriously does anyone have anything to show this? I really want to know

>>64201390
It's the best stock that doesn't cost an arm and a leg in Europe
Any gucci stock costs like €200+

>>64208843
Grandthumbs video on it went in depth with the platform and showed it does have some accuracy issues iirc. I still think we some more time to fix the issues it would have been the best way to go. Its also sexy af.

>>64199732
magpul is the absolute king of good AND cheap aftermarket parts

>>64201818
Purely.
>>64199766
PMAGs are industry standard for a reason. Dubs ignored.

>>64201383
I really wish the ARX had caught on

>>64210383
PMAGs are great
I have an el cheapo Euro AR (Chinese or Vietnamese parts but assembled in Yurop) and it just will not feed properly with anything else. Steel? Jam. Aluminum? Jam. Lancer? Jam. Magpul? Work flawlessly.

>>64208885
You are a faggot for making me go and watch one of his videos and dig up the right section. He said it was because the barrel on the rifle he was using was completely shot out and that grouping that rifle was a waste of time so he had no idea what the accuracy of the rifle really was (13:10 in the video).

>>64210457
(And immediately afterwards that the GD rifles in the trial all demonstrated between 2 and 4 MOA).

NTA any of the posts before the one I'm replying to, but I will wait to see the eventually declassified full trials reports. I haven't yet seen any solid reasons why the GD entries lost to Sig, and the more we learn about Sig the more it makes me think the decision making fucked up somewhere along the way.

>>64199644
>as two of their 5 closest neighbours use it
Besides France who else? Norway?
>admittedly small
Not that small outside our SOF the marines have extensively used it

>>64208885
I swear no one watches this guys tryhard cringe unless they're 16

>>64199732
because it's the best AR stock

>>64208934
This. A good set of MOEshit is not only comfy, but rugged and a good price. But I’m old so I can never not see it as the sets companies would put on tbeir base rifle and call it ((((Advanced)))) or whatever.

>>64200030
Only damn choice applicable. Better start utilizing reeducation standards we got another frothing Yankee outbreak on hand.

>>64211582
I don't know about the handguards, I need to try them again on mine. I had to file them down a bit because I have a round handguard cap on my 20" rifle and I thought it was putting tension on the barrel or something because I couldn't hit shit afterwards
Turned out it was the bullets hitting my new muzzle brake because I swapped both at the same time, haven't tried the handguards since

>>64210393
Most bloated rifle I've ever handled

>>64213215
Wasn't it rather light for its volume, as it were?

>>64199586 (OP)
Oh fuck this entirely they should go for EF-88s or something.

>>64205734
No? If you cant the rifle 45 degrees to look down the sights, the sights are now straight up and the ejection port is 45 degrees up and to the right.

>>64205734
Only if you stick them on an AUG or something equally insane

>>64213235
That would make the most sense, but this is 2025 Britain we're talking about. You're trying to reason with 60 IQ Pakistanis now.