Thread 64207503

>We didn't really design a good place to put your forehand
>Except for the magazine which is the most obvious place to hold it
>If you hold the gun by the magazine it will jam and you will die

Jesus I know it was a desperation weapon but it's like the Brits forgot how human hands work

>>64207503 (OP)
They are very silly

>>64207503 (OP)
>>Except for the magazine which is the most obvious place to hold it
This is why soldiers were given training and why operating manuals exist

>>64207503 (OP)
Question, did the Germans do a better job with the MP 3008?

>>64207503 (OP)
Why not just attach a foregrip of some sort under the barrel with some hose clamps or something?

>>64207503 (OP)
Stiff
Upper
Lip
https://youtu.be/Jvr6X054xLY

>>64207503 (OP)
>your forehand

>>64208619
>Why not add X and Y and Z and
I think you're missing the purpose of the design

>>64207503 (OP)
I have sense that militaries sabotaged SMGs in purpose. Horrible ergonomics, ridiculous wire stocks, non existent hand guards, only open bolt. Spiritual boomers just wanted SMGs to fail against their beloved rifles so they denanded SMGs been as shit as possible.

>>64208649
I'm coming at it from a downtime jury rigged battlefield solution situation, mind.

>>64207782
Rule 1 in design: always assume the operators are idiots
If misuse can cause injury, the problem isnt that people were insufficiently trained, its that the design could be misused in the first place

>>64208678
Rule 1 of design DURING WAR EMERGENCY: crank out any half decent weapon, ergonomics can go to hell. 5% chance of dying due to your own weapon is better than 100% chance of dying from the enemy's weapons.

>>64208678
Your assumption is that something can be designed such that misuse is impossible

>>64208707
You obviously cant design a perfectly safe product
But always assume that if sticking a fork in an electrical socket can kill someone then someone will eventually stick that fork in that socket and die
No matter how many warnings you slap on it, its going to happen

My great-grandmother used to make these.

>>64207503 (OP)
Isnt that EVERY WWII SMG? The MP38, the M3 grease gun, they all have trash ergonomics vs. Interwar SMGs

>>64207503 (OP)
Bongs are not human

If it doesn't get hot, it's not a big problem, but since it's a rapid-fire weapon, it's better to have a grip, and it's not a part that would be much benefit to omit.

>>64209700
True, only Mad Dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.

t. Bong

>>64208619
That's what they figured out by the time STEN Mk V entered production.

Because it was a 'oh shit we need weapons now' weapon. It's the same reason why about 100 countries copied the damn thing. It's a decent SMG that is cheap and easy to make. There isn't much more than that. It is infinitely better than say the Berreta 1918 that fired its entire 20 round mag in a second or PPT-27 that did the same. It's not like they could have equipped their units with the BSA Thompson 1929 or fixed the Welgun or w/e. It's all about numbers and quickness. Sten was 'fine' for its purpose.

>>64209832
>It is infinitely better than say the Berreta 1918
Imagine my shock, humanity has evolved in over 20 years from the old design to the better one, holy crap.
Not to mention that STEN is basically Lancester/MP28 with the bells and whistles cut off .

>>64209700
>Bongs are not human
Fucking right we're not.

>>64207503 (OP)
Delicate american hands don't count as human. Us brits can take a little heat, you little sunflower you.

>>64207503 (OP)
I get that it was supposed to be a cheap bullet hose, but would it have really cost that much more to slap a foregrip on it?

>>64211572
>>us brits can take a little heat
>melts to death when temperatures get above 15°C
bongs talking shit about americans not being able to handle heat is hilarious

What quirk of the design dictated the sideways magazine, anyway? Why not stick it on the bottom like practically every other gun ever made?

Could've welded additional bit of rebar under the heat shroud to give hand more room to grip.

>>64213604
The magazines were long so shooting prone would've been hander without exposing more of your body.

>>64213604
Reliability issues feeding long magazines up against gravity. Mostly solved by WWII but the Sten wasn't exactly a finely-crafted piece of equipment.

>>64207503 (OP)
>"Nigel, have you got a working design for the Sten yet?"
>"Yes sir, but I'm not happy with it. The ergonomics aren't great, and it's kind of ugly"
>"We're at fucking war, you dozy cunt, if it shoots and is simple enough to be mass produced by civilians then shut up and fucking send out the plan!"
I think you underestimate just how catastrophic having to leave all that military kit behind at Dunkirk was for the British armed forces. They'd effectively found themselves fighting the biggest war in history to date, alone, and had just had to leave even the small arms behind (more or less their entire stock) to make sure they could get the men out of the fire. Nobody gave a shit about it being 'ugly' or the Tommy having to actually pay attention to his training.

>>64209794
And it was apparently shit because it was never designed to have torque applied on what also serves as the barrel nut
Fuck, the Mk V is one of my favourite SMG designs. Genuinely hurt to find out the foregrip sucked

>>64213731
The best WW2 SMG mags are Suomi stick mags and drums, no contest
You can actually fully load them without a tool unlike Sten/MP40 mags

>>64209832
>>64209842
Also, PPSH-41 was also an "Oh Shit" kind of gun. Yet it's objectively superior to STEN Mk.II, especially with a 35 round mag.
And PPD was much more fit for manufacturing in simple workshops, hence lots of them were made in Leningrad and in partisan camps.

>>64207782
>>64208649
the people drawing pictures and typewriting 'care must be taken to...' are doing it after a lot of people held the gun the wrong way.
Okay, not every weapon system is kindergarten safety scissors designed for any moron to instantly grasp it, sometimes it absolutely requires training and drill to use a weapon, sure.
I think OP is asking how much does a grip cost that this is necessary? Half the GDP to the strategic bomber war but can't spare a stick and glue or some shit so the guy fighting to advance the front has a normal way to hold a gun?
So why was it so hard to do, or so pointless to do it was like beneath contempt to do it.

>>64215616
You mean the PPS? The PPD required a lot of complex milling, something that you couldn't exactly do in a converted crockery manufacturing plant.

>>64207503 (OP)
shot an mk2 the other day
a honestly atrocious gun

Why not weld two stens together?

>>64216418
Too based for this world.

>>64207561
got dat stenstendo

>>64209776
There i was, in the middle of London, whole place looked grim as fuck, but the instant the sun put in an appearance, bam! Joggers and dogwalkers all over, and every bench and patch of green was suddenly covered with people wielding picnic blankets and sandwiches

>>64215829
>I think OP is asking how much does a grip cost that this is necessary?
According to the British, more than acceptable.

>>64208721
>>64208726
Too hot ouch ouch

>>64216290
No, I meant the PPD.
>The PPD required a lot of complex milling, something that you couldn't exactly do in a converted crockery manufacturing plant.
PPD could be made out of pipes. Complex milling is complex when you must do large scale production. On large scale stamping metal is definitely better, but when you're not making that many or don't have any stamping machinery, mililng will do.

I've shot an original, it was very awkward, but doable if you're used to it.
I'm not excusing how crude it is in saying that

>>64217059
>>64216290
The text goes like this:
PPD-40 SMG.
Manufacturer - unknown, time of production - 1944.
Was found on the archaeologist trip to Molodechno oblast (that's Belarus) in 1957. Assembled out of both factory and hand-made parts, particularly the bolt of the gun was handicrafted

>>64207503 (OP)
There's a hand guard right there. What's the problem?

>>64216458
I see, you're just retarded. You actually think the hand guard gets hot? The whole point is that it doesn't.

>>64217109
When did you shoot one?

>>64207503 (OP)
if you think that's unergonomic check out pic related

>>64217135
>When did you shoot one?
Right after I was done nutting in your moms tight wet warm pussy while your dad was eating my ass

>>64217438
So you haven't shot one.

>>64207561
At least this one has a pistol grip for the firing hand.

>>64216366
>>64217066
I like how your hand first tries to use the trigger guard as the grip because it feels more comfortable than the actual grip...

>>64213809
Yeah plus they didn't have enough SMGs to begin with because it was not gentlemanly enough a gun

>>64218286
I had to be so conscientious when I was shouldering the thing, it just feels so incredibly strange and foreign.
And to the noguns retard who hasn't shot one, yes, handguards do eventually get hot

>>64218313
The MP40's stock on the other hand is really comfortable, surprisingly so. It sure doesn't look like it.

>>64217135
>>64217547
I own a really shitty homemade one
Believe it or not, the handguard guards your hand
>>64218313
And how long is "eventually"?

>>64218381
>not full auto
Retard confirmed

>>64215829
>I think OP is asking how much does a grip cost that this is necessary?
It costs time, and for every few stens without wooden furniture you can make a rifle. And for every sten with wooden furniture you need tooling, tooling that takes floorspace, logistics, and manpower that can be used to make more rifles instead.

If the grip had been carefully crafted like the early Thompson models, the labor costs would have been an issue, but even a simple rod-shaped grip would have been functional.

>>64217438
>32 acp STEN
KAWAII!

>>64207503 (OP)
They didn't forget how guns and efficiency/cost work however. They made a cheap, quick, panic submachine gun. Turns out it's actually rather effective for the cost of manufacture and ease of use in the field. Ergonomic? No. Simple? Yes, any sort of jams or problems in the field can be solved relatively quickly. As such! They made millions of the damn things.

>>64208678
>Rule 1 in design: always assume the operators are idiots
True that

got an opportunity to shoot a sten 2 weeks ago. the moment i fired the first shot the bolt went forward and hit my pinky finger that i mistakenly put into the bolt hole. the finger got sliced and hurt to fuck, but not more than the fucking embarrasment.
having to pull the handle upwards to cock it is shit design though

>>64208619
Problem is you have to attach it to the barrel shroud, which houses the barrel nut. You will eventually unscrew the shroud and loosen the barrel by doing it that way.

>>64218873
And you've now made the gun harder to handle while prone, negating the primary benefit of the weird magazine placement to begin with, while also introducing another point of failure depending on where and how it's attached and an additional potential snag risk in a completely different direction from the others. You're also now using an additional component and material for a non-critical feature in a gun explicitly designed to be the most efficient, straightforward possible way to end up with an effective SMG.
It's not like the designers just forgot, it was calculated. And given the gun's success, I'd say it was a correct one. It was no Owen Gun but it wasn't half bad for austerity mid-war design and production.

>>64218732
>that doesn't count because... it just doesn't, okay?!?!?
If anything, mine is hotter, because it's a closed bolt and all the heat stays in the barrel when I magdump it

>>64220944
Full auto is a lot faster than your finger can pull. But go ahead acting like you have any appreciable experience

>>64220972
I have actually fired a nominally full auto Sten but it wouldn't go full auto no matter which position the selector was in. Then it started light striking and soon stopped working altogether. Great gun, 10/10

>>64220972
>appreciable experience
Your one time firing 20 rounds out of a Sten at a rental range is not appreciable experience.

>>64217135
The tens of thousands of soldiers who shot the sten during WW2 never mentioned the hand guard getting hot despite all the other failings that they mentioned. More importantly, how smooth is your brain that you see a hand guard and automatically assume it must get hot?

>>64221228
Someone is projecting
>>64221263
Yeah, I'm pretty sure they were thinking of other things

>>64221356
>Yeah, I'm pretty sure they were thinking of other things
Like what? Do you think they were thinking about girls? Or tea? Or kissing?