Thread 64207616

Why have the Palestinians never been able to be effective soldiers? They are the whipping boys of the post war world despite involving themselves in many conflicts. Now they’re even begging western countries to save them

I know this is bait but lets answer seriously.

Them losing is a forgone conclusion. The area is too small and well surveiled by Israel for them to hide effectively. The borders are too tightly controlled for any heavy weaponry to be smuggled in, in useful numbers. There aren't any neighboring countries that the militants can retreat to when the fighting goes against them. Lastly, the Israeli population has more tolerance for fighting since Hamas is an 'existential' threat to them. Basically, none of the factors that would allow you to sucessfully wage guerilla warefare are in Hamas' favor.

But I'm sure you knew that

>>64207616 (OP)
Effective soldiers require training, equipment, and leadership. Those things require a stable society and money. Palestinians have neither. Why would you ever expect them to be anything other than a shitty militia?

>>64207766
Palestinians received $150 billion in aid between 1994 and 2023. Gaza received $60 billion in aid since 2007.

>>64207781
Most of that was not in the form of duffle bags of cash, you ddisingenuous scholmo

>>64207781
And? How much do you think it takes to make a competant miiltary? That's not even going into what form that aid came in. I assume they didn't drop pallets of cash on them, so most of it can't be converted to military capacity. That's not to mention that the figures you cite are a paltry sum if you want a competent military. Most states spend more than that every year, and still can't get a competent set of soldiers. What makes you think a shittier society spending less is going to make anything close to good?

>>64207616 (OP)
I now support shooting kids for throwing rocks. Americans must die for Israel

>>64207836
A real American would know that Americans generally make dying for their cause the job of the other guy.

>>64207711
Even in the early years of Israel's existence, they have stomped the Arab forces in the region (including Palestinian volunteers) relatively readily. This is more a result of Arabs being really fucking bad at fighting wars than the IDF being particularly good though

>>64207812
And Israel receives interceptor missiles, but /pol/ subhumans spin it up as them getting pallets of cash.

>>64207941
Okay, so what lethal aid have the Palestinians received, dumbass? I'm not defending these fucking troglodytes, but what is your actual point, anon?

>>64207970
Kornets for one, for murdering schoolchildren.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha%27ar_HaNegev_school_bus_attack

>>64207991
Anyone can smuggle shit here and there, but the fact remains that the Palestinians have no hope of establishing a functioning military. Even the better-funded Arab states have shitty militaries. Why would the Palestinians do any better in worse conditions?

>>64207616 (OP)

There’s a lot of socioeconomic, cultural, and historical factors behind this, I’ll go through what I think are the most important ones

>lack of a warrior tradition

Being an ethnic group that only really began to emerge as a distinct identity in the 19th Century, the Palestinians simply don’t really have that much in the way of a military tradition, especially when compared to the Jews who’ve been fighting wars since Antiquity. Granted the Jews have had their share of (spectacular) failures, but their successes have left a model of leadership to follow.

>lack of an industrial base/nation state

This one’s pretty self-explanatory, the Palestinians will always be at disadvantage to Israel because the latter is an established state with a standing army

>geography

Another no-brainer, the Palestinian Territories are smaller than the Bay Area and they’re surrounded by hostile states on three sides and the ocean on the other

>lack of ideological consensus

For all their talk of being united against Zionism, Palestinians can’t seem to actually agree on what they want their prospective nation to actually look like. Hamas, Fatah, the PLO, these groups fight amongst themselves constantly and when they do cooperate, they’re prone to fracturing.

>victimization mentality

In flip of the above point, the one thing that unites Palestinians is their absolute nuclear-level seething at Israel and Jews as a whole. While this grievance is understandable, it’s also terrible for things like negotiation. Virtually every US president since LBJ and multiple Arab states have tried to mediate an amicable settlement with the Israelis and the Palestinians have rejected virtually all of them. The worst example of this self-sabotage was the 2000 Oslo Accords which could have laid the groundwork for Palestinian statehood, but Arafat’s response was to not only reject it, but restart the Intifada, torpedoing years of work to get the two sides to come to the table

Continuation of >>64208264

>choosing terrible friends

Who are the friends of Palestine today?

Russia? It’s a thousand miles away and is full of Jewish oligarchs who all have Putin’s ear, and he’s always going to defer to keeping them pleased over siding with the Palestinians.

The Houthis? They’re mountain guerrillas who apart from whipping the Saudis have no great achievements to their name. To them, the Gaza War is more of a convenient pretense to engage in piracy than anything else.

Iran? The Ayatollahs see Palestinians as little more than a means to fuck with Israel and America, nothing more.

Neo-Nazis? Not only is this movement politically impotent in the Western world, they’re only compelled to take the Palestinians’ side because they hate the Jews. A follower of Hitler will never take up arms for the Palestinian cause or call them his racial brothers. The Palestinian will always be a useful subhuman who dies fighting International Jewry so he doesn’t have to.

Cultural Marxists? While they are great at spreading their brain poison throughout the Western world, they’re also incapable of translating that into serious policy, at least without jeopardizing their own position.

>unrealistic expectations

This one is perhaps the most egregious of all. Simply put, the Palestinian leadership from Grand Mufti al-Husseini to Sinwar, are absolutely terrible at setting concrete achievable war goals. They consistently align with the wrong allies and set grandiose goals that cannot be realistically achieved with the military strength they have available. Worse yet, many of them likely see the conflict with Israel as little more than a means to stay in power, so they don’t even want to win the wars so much as continue them indefinitely. Israel also has this problem, but it’s also a democracy where fucking up enough will eventually result in a shakeup in leadership as Netanyahu will likely soon find out.

>>64207616 (OP)
What blew up this time?

>>64207836
Based

>>64207906
>IDF being particularly good
Idk nearly enough about the 40s and 60s wars but nowadays I'd say only their airforce and secret services are elite, while their ground force leave much to be desired
They should consider a reform once this shit is over

>>64207906
I'd say Palestinians are an even more special case since they've been pushed around by other Arabs as well whenever they started acting like they own the place they fled to.

>>64208799
>they've been pushed around by other Arabs
Tends to happen when
>ever they started acting like they own the place they fled to.
They are called the "gypsy of Arab" for a reason.

>>64208786
Its a conscript army dood.

>>64207865
This has literally never been the case, since america had to eventually intervene directly in its own proxy wars to avoid disaster time and again

>>64208264
>Arafat’s response was to not only reject it, but restart the Intifada
In fairness, he got jebaited into it by that part of the Israeli secret services who assassinated Rabin. Of course, he should've figured out some of his "advisors" were really Israeli moles, and the Israeli side was a bit too accomodating at the time (which meant they were expecting something to happen).

>>64207906
Israel has been receiving western help and european immigrants from day one

>>64207906
Israels performance in past wars has ranged from competent to 1940's Wehrmacht tier.
To be fair, it has always been aided by enemy incompetence and the inability of Arab forces to manouver or use their fucking airplanes, but still.

>>64209083
Holy meds.

>>64207941
No they literally recieve financial aid that is then used to 'purchase' arms

>>64209082

Really? How's Ukraine going for you?

Remember, your handlers claim that's an American proxy war. Be careful how you answer, lest you find yourself in a dirt pit with someone mock-executing you.

>>64209082
>missing the intention of the quote
You don't win a war by dying for your country: you win it by making the enemy die for theirs.
It's misattributed to Patton; I don't know for sure where it actually came from.

>>64209083
>Israeli secret services who assassinated Rabin.

Huh?

>>64208407
>Simply put, the Palestinian leadership from Grand Mufti al-Husseini to Sinwar, are absolutely terrible at setting concrete achievable war goals.
It was interesting reading Noam Chomsky talking about the PLO. He supports the Palestinians, but he was very critical of them back in the 1970s, and knew Palestinian intellectuals (who are the driving force behind the pro-Palestinian movement in Western countries). So back then, he was asking "shouldn't you guys come up with a strategy to win people over here to your cause, because waving AK-47s around isn't the way to do it." That appeals to a small and fringe sect of left-wing activists, but that's not most Americans. And he got the impression that they didn't care, because they were not actually a revolutionary organization. There were some of those guys like the PFLP, but the PLO leadership were really conservative Arab authoritarian types who saw politics as a matter of elites making deals, so they expected to cut a deal with the U.S. eventually. That is basically what happened in the 90s and these guys set themselves up to run Ramallah as some mafia, but they're ludicrously corrupt, and that was part of the reason why Hamas rose up and took power in Gaza.

They were also making crazy business deals all over the world. Like investing in random hotels and other stuff in all kinds of crazy countries. They were probably the wealthiest third-world resistance organization by far.

>>64212548
It's not exactly an hidden story anon, Israelis kill their own politicians when they try to make peace

>>64207970
>>64208019
the subhuman trash you're trying to defend fire off an average of seventeen rocket attacks per day. we're not talking about fireworks here. Israel built it's infrastructure with the concept of a bomb shelter being within thirty seconds of all urban areas for a region.

>>64207616 (OP)
/k/ larpers can put on camo and pose for pictures too. That doesn't make them soldiers any more than it makes palestinians soldiers.
They're terrorists. Everything they do is asymmetrical. They can't fight a conventional war against a better equipped larger force. They have no standing army because they aren't a real state. Their very existence is built around their goal of jewish genocide, which they have no capability to accomplish. That's why it's Groundhog day in Gaza every day. The only thing sustaining them is being a proxy for Iran which uses them as an expendable resource. No Arab state likes them.
The saddest part is that they could have achieved a victory over the israelis by disbanding hamas, surrendering to the UN and completely disarming. But they only care about killing all the jews.

>>64209252
>Israels performance in past wars has ranged from competent to 1940's Wehrmacht tier.
I read this history of the IDF. Written by an Israeli historian in the 90s that was more critical of their own history, when a lot of the history hadn't been written that way yet. It discusses more blunders than people know about, like a bunch of jumped-up Israeli paratroopers getting shot up at the Mitla Pass during the Suez Crisis. There was also raid into Jordan in 1968 called the Battle of Karamah that the Jordanians won.

One theme that comes up repeatedly in those wars is what the author calls an "en brera" attitude. I've posted about this before, but it means "no alternative" but it has connotations like "let's roll." It's when the will of the civilian population and the military and political leadership align, and the Israelis unleash themselves with aggression. In the 90s though, this historian felt that Israel had lost that because it had been sunk into a morass of occupation duties, which was also a problem in southern Lebanon, which Israel was occupying at the time. He saw a real breakdown in morale and purpose at this time.

But after 10/7, I saw something like that coming back. Just the stuff I was seeing on Israeli channels in the following days and weeks (early on) freaked me the hell out:
https://youtu.be/hefC-uwULy0

It's a more collectivist society, and when they feel the en brera, watch out. That's the "secret weapon" that makes this rather chaotic, ill-disciplined army of reservists work. And I thought they were going to go Warhammer mode on Gaza and pulverize it, and tragically that has been the case. But I also do think they're dealing with a lot of exhaustion at this point nearly two years in. It's a theme that comes up a lot in Israeli talk.

>>64208769
nothing yet, but there's a major flotilla on the way to Gaza; Again. apparently it's a big one this time. some sixty ships.
I say check the ship for weapons. once disarmed, let all the ship through to Gaza. then let Hamas eat these leftist pukes alive. A hostage situation with Greta Thunberg would be absolutely hilarious.

they're broke as shit and no one around them actually wants them to succeed, only to be annoying to israel.

>>64212659
Israelis know palestinians wouldnt hurt them, that's why they used to sink the flotillas (and kill innocents) and now they stop them in international water because otherwise your brainwashing would e exposed

>>64212650
So simply a case of "we either all fight together or we all die together"?

Any historical examples of arabs being pushed into the same situation? The only example I can think of that is sorta similiar (which is not arabs sadly but persian) are the iranians during the Iran-Iraq war when the iraqis pushed and the iranian new goverment had to pardon a bunch of former goverment Iranian officers so they could fight and not get smashed.

>>64207616 (OP)
Rangeban Israelis, Russians, and Indians.

>>64212738
Not sure about other analogies among Arabs and Persians, but this is from a paper about it. What's different about this war is that Israel chose not to do a short war. But they've been very aggressive and willing to take risks when it came to Hezbollah, Iran and the Houthis. They're operating under the assumption that if they don't kill Nasrallah, they're going to be destroyed, so they kill him. When they said they were going to hunt down Hamas and kill them, they mean it, they will hunt down Hamas members in other countries and assassinate them.