Thread 64210574

why germans believed in the wunderwaffe concept? one would think they were smart enough to commit the ever increasingly limited resources to stuff that would actually make them win the war

>>64210574 (OP)
>why germans believed in the wunderwaffe concept?

>>64210594
so its an aryan thing, is that what u trynna say?

>>64210574 (OP)
Mostly because Germany didn't have the population to face England, France, and Russia simultaneously so they had to believe in making 1 german soldier worth 5 regular soldiers.

>>64210574 (OP)
Because they did come close to such a thing, with the nerve agents.
Nazis didn’t have the guts to employ it

>>64210633
They were warned in no uncertain terms that they'd get anthraxed in return.

>>64210574 (OP)
goyim nazis are stupid

>>64210574 (OP)
halo effect, people overstimate the effect of something they believe is grandiose and catches attention instead of many boring small procedural changes that add up to make a huge difference

also 20/20 hindsight, if the atomic bomb wouldn't have worked you would be crying about why didn't they use resources to save lives in the large scale ground assualt on Japan

If hitler had put more money in this and they had gotten This thing flying before the end of the war things would have been much different.

>>64210640
No, the threat was mostly about chemical warfare.
And then, nazis we’re already hoarding livestocks and foods from across europe, so most of europe will be fully depopulated before Germans started starving en masse.
And, given the long period before anthrax spore cakes to fully take effects, compare to near instantaneous destruction of nerve agents, germs would have found out something’s off.

>>64210669
Yes, a few months of production on a plane would have halted the millions of Russian ground troops

>>64210644
>if the atomic bomb wouldn't have worked you would be crying about why didn't they use resources to save lives in the large scale ground assualt on Japan
sir, thats a farce

>>64210685
>They were warned in no uncertain terms that they'd get anthraxed in return.
>And then, nazis we’re already hoarding livestocks and foods from across europe,
do you know what anthrax does?
it mostly kills livestock.
anthrax, as a biological weapon, was never primarily intended for use against humans. It is a way to deprive your enemy of sheep, cows, and horses.
sheep = wool
cows = leather, milk, and meat
horses = logistics
cows and horses = heavy ploughs, aka all your cereal grains.
(this was an era when tractors had only existed for like, forty years)

>>64210793
That what i said ???
And it would have been more than likely that germans will start noticing something's off with their livestocks. Countermeasure to mitigate would be easier than say, equipping 40 mils brits with enough nerve agent proof gas masks (Yes, i know brits did mass produce civilian gas mask before 1939, but those are not effective against nerve agents)
That's not even mentioning that you would need PPE to be safe, since high concentration of nerve gases (about 200 times higher than what it take to kill through respiratory)
And less than 100 mg per cubic metre is enough to kill an adult male through inhalation

The reality was that the early 20th century was the age of Wunderwaffe. Machine guns, planes, chemical weapons, tanks, submarines, semiautomatic and automatic rifles, paratroopers, missiles, jets, and atomic weapons may seem 'mundane' now, but they were wunderwaffe as much as super heavy battleships or superheavy tanks.
Patton for example went from making his own cavalry sword to pioneering tank warfare. We should appreciate that it was an era of experimentation and rapid technological change, and nobody knew what worked and what didn't.

>>64210741
NTA but it's a good point though and something I never considered. The Atomic Bomb basically was a wunderwaffe, just it actually worked.

>>64210574 (OP)
Same reason the Brits believed in Blitzkrieg and Rommel's genius - it was cope to divert attention from their failures.

>>64210633
>nazis use nerve agents to fuck up a few allied untis on the frontlines
>entire german cities are drowned in mustard gas by the RAF in return

>>64210869
>Countermeasure to mitigate would be easier
1. No.
2. Especially not for the already overtaxed german economy when compared to those of the allies.
3. THis also results in the germans having to equip tens of millions of their civilians with gas masks because the RAF starts dropping thousnads of tons of phosgene and mustard gas into german cities.

>>64210574 (OP)
>not enough steel
>not enough fuel
>not enough men
They could have dragged it out some more making more sensible gear, but the end was in sight. Doing some meth and betting the house on some hail marry wunderwaffe probably seemed like the only way out.

>>64210633
It was more that Hitler wasn't a fan of chemical weapons, having fought in WW1 and been through gas attacks. Another reason why the Soviets picking "gas chambers" for their blood libel was really dumb.

The idea that they were "afraid of retaliation" makes no sense given that the British were already levelling civilian population centres through conventional ordinance and Henry Morgenthau was talking about the need to wipe out the Germans as a people.

>>64210574 (OP)
Wunderwaffen were unironically the only logical choice by midwar considering that Germany was losing access/stockpiles of strategic resources and their industry didn't have the capacity to rebuild even early war tanks or planes in sufficient numbers for Germanys war aims. Sure they "could" have built more modern and numerous medium tanks or single engine aircraft, but they didn't have the oil or aluminum to field them in sufficient numbers to keep up with the Russkies

>>64210574 (OP)
Anticipation of exotic physics power plants to take Porsche electric engines to the next level. And things that could negate direct fire artillery/AT at the scale of Kursk defenses while ignoring tank trap ditches (and mines) with impunity.

>>64210574 (OP)
>why germans believed in the wunderwaffe concept?
It was literally only Hitler and his cabinet promoting these. Everyone thought it wrs stupid and actively tried not to waste money on them.

>>64210574 (OP)
It was pure cope.
>our superior Aryan Science will create a weapon that will force the Judengolems to surrender!
>never mind that our military is supplied by horses pulling wagons in Anno Domini 1945 and we can't produce enough fuel or ammunition for said weapons but we'll win because we're superior!
Reminder that the war could have ended in 1943 if the US/UK would have negotiated.

>>64211677
>mustard gas
>literally the least effective chemical agent
With what fucking bombers? The British could only do limited night raids, the only thing they'd do is ensure that bomber crews wouldn't be taken prisoner anymore.

>>64211728
>Another reason why the Soviets picking "gas chambers" for their blood libel was really dumb.
holocaust denial retard or talking about something else?

>>64216067
Meanwhile the US creates a portable sun. In two flavors.

>>64211728
Very different story when gas will be used on you in return than being able to use it with impunity.

>>64210607
Well that was the case, Germany was winning 1v10 battles against the Soviets and even during the siege of Berlin the ratio was positive for the German army, what does that have to do with the Wunderwaffen?

>>64216091
Zyklon B was a pesticide that has to be concentrated to stupid levels to be fatal to humans. Yet the had chlorine gas and Sarin. Why didnt they use that? Maybe because the gas chamber stories are dumb. They just used famine and bullets and worked people to death. Way too much of the Holocaust is romanticized and embellished by Jews trying to look interesting.

>>64210574 (OP)
>one would think they were smart enough to commit the ever increasingly limited resources to stuff that would actually make them win the war
That's the problem. The allies had a shit ton of resources and the Germans had an increasingly limited amount of resources. Once America entered the war and the Soviet Union failed to collapse decisively like France did, there wasn't really a mathematical route to win the ensuing war of attrition. You could try building sensible shit, but the allies will just build vastly more sensible shit that was (more or less) qualitatively equivalent. So you either bet the farm on wunderwaffe turning things around, or accept that defeat is inevitable and surrender.

Probably a stupid bet for Germany on the whole, but not a terrible cynical bet to make if you're the big name Nazi leaders. They kind of put themselves in an awkward position of committing a bit too many perfidious sneak attacks and happy happy fun time atrocities. The allies were gonna want to execute a lot of the very very top ranking leaders on principle. Hence them approving the construction of all the HabensWerferGeschutzenNeuntausends. Probably won't work, but maybe it will.

>>64216067

the V1 and V2 rockets, the panzerfaust, the me 262 or the STG 44 were also wunderwaffen, their mistake was to concentrate on extremely expensive weapons to produce using already existing concepts like a super heavy tank or a rail gun, they should have invested in a multitude of more or less wacky and relatively cheap to produce concepts then refined little by little according to the results during the first months of research

>>64216374
>panzerfaust
>Wunderwaffen
If it costs less to build than a rifle and has a production run in the millions, then it's probably not a wunderwaffen.

>>64216437
A Wunderwaffen is not defined by price, for example Germany developed individual night vision goggles that were considered Wunderwaffen

>>64216487
>A Wunderwaffen is not defined by price
I mean if we're not defining wunderwaffen by something semi-tangible like price/technical complexity, then we're left with a lot of examples of Wunderwaffen that probably only qualify for marketing/branding reasons. Night vision as a war winning tech is a bit silly since the Americans had active IR tech themselves and could build it in greater quantity than the Germans.

>>64216788
In terms of effectiveness, an individual weapon that can pierce 100 mm of armor at 50 meters during WW2 deserves to be called "wunderwaffen" more than a night vision goggle

>>64210689
It would've decimated them, do you claim otherwise?

>>64216819
> an individual weapon that can pierce 100 mm of armor at 50 meters during WW2 deserves to be called "wunderwaffen"
?????

>>64216078
Are we now pretending the British didn't have bombers?

>>64216875
All Wunderwaffen.

>>64216078
Are you retarded

>>64219282
>Wunderwaffen, for everyone!

>>64210574 (OP)
Simple. They were getting their shit kicked in by the Americans, British, and Russians. Ideologically speaking the American and Russian part of that stung them (as they saw both groups as effectively subhuman). Combined with that the RAF and USAAF Combined Bomber Offensive had effectively removed Germany's industrial base from the war. So, if Germany could only produce (to massively simplify for the sake of the conversation) 1 tank for every 10 that their enemies could build then - so the theory went - they'd have to make sure that that 1 tank could defeat 11 of the enemies tanks before it got destroyed.

Obviously that theory is retarded, and doesn't account for the vast number of other factors that go into military calculations, but it was the least retarded plan they had - and it played to their political biases too - so they ran with it, and paid the price for doing so. It's just one of the sort of idiotic things that happens when your military answers to drug addled morons.

>>64210574 (OP)
They didn't. They were more focused on maintaining production lines than anyone.

>>64220569
>So, if Germany could only produce (to massively simplify for the sake of the conversation) 1 tank for every 10 that their enemies could build then - so the theory went - they'd have to make sure that that 1 tank could defeat 11 of the enemies tanks before it got destroyed.
Germany was building Pz IV right up to the end of the war because they didn't want to disrupt production numbers from retooling.

>>64220789
True, but OP asked specifically about the thinking that lead to the Wunderwaffle bullshit. Also this is your scheduled reminder that the bulk of the Wehrmacht tank forces when they were actually able to operate as a highly mechanized 'Blitzkrieg' armored force was the cute little Pz II, which was basically just one step up from an armored go-kart.

>>64210574 (OP)
It's the Red Queen Hypothesis.
You must constantly adapt and innovate to stay competitive or to gain an advantage over your enemies.
It still applies today as well. Cheap drones will necessitate innovation in defense, which will necessitate innovation in new drones.
It's a constant race to be ahead of the competition, and it has led to to biggest advancements in human civilization in just the last two centuries.

>>64220891
>Casually conquers France and the entire easternmost part of the Soviet Union
It is kind of funny considering that everyone associates Blitzkrieg with the iconic Tiger/Panther tanks, but they only came into service after German advances had stalled and the war had turned into an attritional slog that Germany had very little hope of winning. Their biggest successes really were when they were mainly driving aroud in clanky little claptraps like the Panzer II and III, wasn't it?

Not that the early model Panzer's were viable latter in the war obviously (unless modified for Stug life). But still funny to think about.

>>64221083
It gets even funnier when you imagine the three guys crammed into that thing, popping Methamphetamine pills like breathmints, kind of wishing that EDM/Eurobeat had been invented by that time so they could have had some tunes playing as they redline the engines driving into France.

>>64221099
forgot the pic

>>64221083
>claptraps like the Panzer II and III
Don't forget the 38(t). German design at its best.

>>64221256
>Pz 38(t)
As German as the Fuhrer himself!

>>64221099
Honeslty thinking about it if German tanks ever had a significant wunderwaffen esque technological edge it would have been early war when
>They understood the importance of crew ergonomics and the advantage of 3 man (2 on lighter tanks) turrets
>Fucking radios everywhere
Better situational awareness/coordination tended to be more important than having more guns or armor than the opposition. Losing that advantage (allies ditched 1-2 man turrets and USA spams radios everywhere) couldn't be compensated for by the German's building bigger cats.

>>64221307
Radios in every tank, and several in damn near every supporting infantry transport was unironically one of the seriously impressive things about the early war Wehrmacht, that and the Wermacht Einheitskanister.

>>64216875
I don't know if you know but there were other fighter planes after the me 262

>>64210574 (OP)
>why germans believed in the wunderwaffe concept?
they nearly had significant conceptual breakthroughs, like guided anti-air missiles, which could've helped them to shut down the allied air campaign till Germany had nuclear deterrence

>>64216875
>piat
kek.

Rumors about the existence of the V2 spread among soldiers and officers, giving them some hope.
Wiretapped information from a captured German general by British intelligence included an old-timer asking a newcomer what was going on with the Wunderwaffe.

>>64210574 (OP)
>commit the ever increasingly limited resources
Germany not only lacked material resources, they lacked manpower. Reformer logic is not the solution.

Germany needed wunderwaffle because they needed a miracle. Lost on resources, lost on production, lost on manpower.

>>64210574 (OP)
germans didn't. hitler did. and hitler was a reality detatched megalomaniac, so it checks out.

>>64221083
>It is kind of funny considering that everyone associates Blitzkrieg with the iconic Tiger/Panther tanks, but they only came into service after German advances
People forget that reality isn't world of tanks. The blitzkrieg was more about the mechanized infantry in trucks and half tracks than the tanks' armor thickness or cannon penetration. A 20mm cannon and armor that can stop machine guns is a terror in 1940, it is an IFV.

>>64221352
Jerry cans are a marvel when you consider the alternative fuel can construction which has the sheet metal seams tracing the bottom rim, and still needs a seam up the side.

>>64210574 (OP)
why even still fight the war after kursk? there was no way of winning after 43. the 2 last years of the war dont make sense at all from the german perspective. there was no reason anymore, just madness.

>>64210574 (OP)
They knew they weren't as strong as their propaganda would depict. They were undersupplied the whole time. They gambled on above and beyond miracle weapons because they were too busy wearing looted French underwear and anything "normal" wouldn't work. It's praying for a miracle because they knew they were fucked if they did conventional.

>>64221352
The Jerrycan was really miraculous in hindsight. The flimsies and other cans had nothing on it and we still use it today. Easier to make, effective, doesn't need specialized tools to open, can be stacked and durable, etc.
>>64222746
They had chased out several scientists saying they did Jewish Physics and several nuclear programs that clawed each other for resources because Hitler loved pitting men against each other because muh natural selection and ended up achieving nothing at all. They'd never get nukes until everyone else and everyone else's mom had a nuclear bomb.
>>64224905
This here. The politics involved with every decision matter a lot. Lots of this was ideologically motivated insanity.
>>64226062
From the Nazi POV, the war was a race war and every slav, jew, etc they could kill was important. They had many moments they diverted resources away from an undersupplied army just to kill more unarmed civilians because they saw that as the whole point of it all. Conventional war logic doesn't apply to them. Besides, it's not like the angry enemies would've spared them all.

>>64210574 (OP)
Because it obviously would have worked, and Hitler had enough scientists to build him a nuke.

Sweden was already manufacturing heavy water during the war, and sold both to the USA and Germany, during the development of their nuclear programs.

Obviously, the jewish plan was to kill as many white ethnic Europeans as possible, and enslave them with their goy golem USA, so Hitler got sabotaged in his efforts. There were at least a dosen German/Austrian scientists that could have got the bomb before the allies. They decided to conduct research in the USSR even before Barbarossa. Lots of very suspect maneuvering, again, with the only obvious result being sabotage.

Now would it have been effective?
I dunno, ask the Japanese.

>>64210574 (OP)
>why did germans believe in the concept of wunderwaffe?
Fixed for gorgeous looks, you can post ASAP.

>>64210574 (OP)
because their opponents are insurmountable
>British empire.. lol
1/5th of the worlds surface, could probably depopulate the entire uk and still have reserves
>us
80% of the worlds total oil refinement capacity, has plenty of 100 to 150 octane gas
also weird stuff like most of the strategically valuable woodlands
>Soviet Union
huge, can shrug off tens of millions of casualties. winning only makes things worse for you, as your now hundreds of miles away from any useful land.
side note they are hoarding most of the worlds nickel and alloying compounds.

>>64226062
because they quite literally inimicated the entirety of europe and their acts of ethnic genocide were universally known and despised. hitler wanted to stay on power for as long as possible, as putin now is prolonging the war for the same reason, but the fact is that germans were absolutely certain that, after what the ss did, they would've received no quarter from anybody. so they were compelled to fight to the death because they knew if they lost their fates would've been worse.

>>64216374
>sturmgewehr is a wunderwaffen

>>64226062
It's a problem inherent in dictatorial regimes. The more that authority is centralized, the more removed from the actual situation on the ground the decision makers become, making it ever likelier that they will be making decisions based on incomplete or inaccurate information. Worse still, given the complexity of a modern industrial society and the inherent limits on the competency of even the greatest individual men, centralizing authority in a single man or small group means that many decisions will be getting made by someone with little or no real expertise in that area of administration.

Basically, you've got Hitler sitting in Berlin getting fed overly optimistic reports by cronies who want to remain in his good favor, making decisions on high-level military strategy, procurement, and diplomacy when he never had any actual experience beyond the rank of corporal.

>>64210574 (OP)
Economies of scale. Germany was running out of oil and big engines consume proportionally less fuel than small engines.

>>64227006
It is. Just because "it worked" and is now mundane doesn't mean that a machine gun that takes the form of a regular rifle isn't completely absurd from a 30's and 40's perspective. M1 Garands were wunderwaffe of WW1 as well.
What makes a wunderwaffe a wunderwaffe is you can hold up this amazing technological advancement and scream "WITH THIS I WILL END THE WAR" and you get a big applause of "implessive" and the war continues regardless.

>>64226062
>there was no reason anymore
The reason was that Hitler/Goering/Goebbles/Himmler preferred suicide or execution in 1945 over 1943. Something about being alive for an extra 1-2 years.

>>64210574 (OP)
They knew that only miracle could save them. They started shitting bricks the moment the UK declared war on them and THEN the dreaded 2 front war happened kek.

>>64228801
>They started shitting bricks the moment the UK declared war on them
delulu take