Thread 64217530

>9mm
>Most effective round for law enforcement designated by FBI
>Backed up by decades of statistics
>380
>Might as well use a blow gun
>Identical diameter
>Almost identical case size

>>64217530 (OP)
>lighter bullet going slower with the same diameter
That said, its still good 'nuff

Shoot a 9mm (not even +p) out of a gun half the size of a p365 and report back on your follow up shot accuracy

>The gun you have with you

>>64217530 (OP)
>>Most effective round for law enforcement designated by FBI
That would be 10mm, then 40 when their 10 mils were dogshit, and 9 when their standards fell
>>Backed up by decades of statistics
Statistics of repeatedly failing
9mm is barely acceptable, anything that can't clear that bar is by extention completely unacceptable

One is imported tapered metric eurokek slop developed by a literal who.

One was designed by John Moses Browning in the United States of America.

It's a fairly easy choice.

FMJ .380 is functionally identical in terminal performance to FMJ 9mm. FMJ 9mm has been the most common military pistol cartridge in the world practically since its inception. Clearly FMJ .380 is not insufficient to kill a man.

From the other direction, people love to point at the Fort Hood shooting to highlight the effectiveness of the 5.7x28 cartridge. Assuming nothing goes wrong, the best 5.7 hollow point loadings show roughly the same expanded diameter and penetration as FMJ .380. It's effectively the same as the much-lauded 5.7x28 against unarmored assailants, except that it's more consistent as it doesn't rely on expansion.

>>64217530 (OP)
>>Almost identical case size
And it has identical performance in real-life shootings, statistically speaking.

>>64217530 (OP)
>neither are .45 ACP or 10mm
Keep using victim calibers and keep getting victim caliber results.

>>64217687
.380, .38 spl, 9mm, 10mm, .40 S&W, and .45 AARP have equivalent performance in real-world shootings.

>>64217713
Over 55 medals of honor were won by men carrying .45s, Americans are not going to stop now carrying forty five.

>>64217687
>45 ACP
I'm always amused that people excuse the decreased capacity by telling people to git gud at aiming, yet people who can aim wouldn't need .45

>>64217530 (OP)
>designated by FBI
Trust the experts, goyim.

>>64217843
.45 ACP and .40 S&W are the two most effective urban combat/self defense handgun calibers available.

>>64217887
It seems to me like the math is fairly straightforward: accounting for the expanded diameter and depth of penetration and the relative speed of follow-up shots at the same level of accuracy, which cartridge causes a greater displacement of flesh in the same period of time?

>>64217897
So what is it? Trust the 13%->50% and 10mm memes, or is the FBI full of shit?

>>64218081
They're correct until they say something I disagree with

I thought this was just going to be a troll thread but you fuckers have me legitimately questioning which caliber I should trust as my daily carry

>>64218149
.30 SC

>>64218149
.32 Auto for pocket carry.
.380 Auto for concealed carry.
.45 Auto for open carry.
Don't fall for any other meme. Browning did not make a mistake.

>>64218003
On paper, .45 ACP. But a more important question is which can do the most damage in the right places? Multiple rounds of .45 in the wrong place will do little, .22LR in the right place will kill with a single shot. But putting .22LR on the right spot takes skill and calm under stress that most people don't have.
In a sense both 9mm and .45 are part of the happy medium of powerful enough yet easily enough used. Ultimately they're similar enough cartridges that any debate turns into a hair splitting contest. 9mm is generally superior in most scenarios because higher capacity means a higher chance of hitting something vital during handgun engagements, but in the end the real answer is whatever your trusted gun is chambered in, no matter what that might be.

Also I was shitting on the boomers who jerk off muh fuddy-five. I've said this to many a retarded boomer and got them irrationally angry it's fucking hilarious.

>>64218169
.25 Auto to become Jetfire Jim.

>>64218169
If I only had one tattoo...

>>64218229
>I HAVE
>SEVERAL PALLETS
>OF .25 ACP
All hail Jetfire Jim

>>64218250
>love me some 25ACP

>>64218169
Running with this:

>.32 Auto for pocket carry
Keltec P-32
>.380 Auto for concealed carry
Ruger security 380 or FN model 1910 for sovl.
>.45 Auto for open carry
Have to pick a 1911. Also a Glock would be acceptable for practicality.

>>64218149
.22lr

>>64218169
>he can't CC a .45
Tell me you bottom without telling me you're a bottom.

>>64218544
It's not smart to appendix-holster a fullsize like a 1911 for a variety of reasons, kiddo.

>>64217530 (OP)
I thought .380 ACP was generally considered the minimum that people should carry, not that it was inadequate

Seems like I remember a study in either Baltimore or Boston or some other east coast shithole where the tracked the ammo used in shootings by caliber.
I can't remember the results exactly but as I recall larger diameter correlated nicely with one shot stops in case someone feels like posting it.
If I remember correctly 10mm "won" by only being used once and that one time being a kill it likely would have trended towards <50% by the rest of the data given more sample size.

>>64218623
>he doesn't use the superior CC system
NGMI

>>64217626
Reminder that 5.7 couldn't penetrate both sides of lowtax's skull

>>64218623
I will do it tomorrow for fullsize friday

>>64218221
>guntuber slop opinion
>Also I was shitting on the boomers who jerk off muh fuddy-five. I've said this to many a retarded boomer and got them irrationally angry it's fucking hilarious.
No you haven't, you are nogunz and under 18.

>>64218723
Users of large caliber guns are just better shooters (the nice 1911 trigger helps. literally handgun technique on easy mode.)

>>64218723
From what I’ve heard from er docs online and a nurse(?) I met, JHP vs FMJ makes a huge difference in survival outcomes. These studies don’t control for JHP or FMJ so a lot of them are useless.

>>64218980
>JHP vs FMJ makes a huge difference
Which one is more survivable?

>>64218942
>he needs his .45 to compensate for his 10,000 moa cataracts and full steel 1911 to steady his mr burns ass parkinsons chicken feet hands
All I hear is a boomer with mental facilities so severely degraded that he is unable to process and deploy anything but the most basic of preprogrammed responses.

>>64219044
>sheman needs a 9mm to compensate for their limp wrists because of all the estrogen it is taking

>>64217530 (OP)
It's basically like .40 vs 10mm, they also only have 3-4mm case length difference. I guess that's a lot of powder, but then explain why .38 special is so weak...

.380 is fine for killin at self defense range but I agree with using ball ammo or copper bullets. Hollowpoints depend on having enough power to expand and continue penetrating. Not ideal for a close range round.

>>64219124
It's not the size of the case that makes the difference in power, it's the pressure. The case size is reduced slightly to make sure you can't accidentally chamber a full power 10mm/9mm cartridge in a gun designed for .40/.380.

>>64218494
>glockshit
FNX45/USP45 and a 1911 for a range toy is the only acceptable answer.

>>64219185
I've accidentally fired 9mm out of my .40 beretta, it was funny. Case expanded to .40 size

>>64217530 (OP)
45 ACP

>>64217530 (OP)
9mm is actually the most reliable round in multiple studies against even large game like brown bears. It turns out, mag dumping a bear with 9mm is super effective at killing them. I like my 10mm, but the data is pretty clear that the 30 caliber range is master race.

9mm

>>64217626
But does it produce 13 gazillion wound channels?

>>64217843
chastity belt holster

>>64219230
Yeah, but it doesn't generate any pressure because the gas just went around the bullet. You can't chamber a 10mm in a .40 unless something's absolutely turbofucked.

>>64218149

It literally doesn't matter. All handgun calibers below .357 Mag and above .25 ACP are basically identical, we are talking like 1-2mm variance in wound channels here that really doesn't matter outside of gun fag autism. Unless you intend to shoot bears or pentrate body armor, just carry whatever the fuck you want and learn to shoot it well and quick.

>>64217530 (OP)
.380 is great for foids - femininoids.

>>64218221
>Ultimately they're similar enough cartridges that any debate turns into a hair splitting contest.
The typical 45 ACP bullet weighs literally twice as much as the typical 9mm bullet (230gr vs 115gr) as well as having double the case capacity (13.3gr vs 26.7gr). 45 ACP is more powerful than 9mm, and anyone shooting both side by side can attest to that. The entire 9fag argument hinges on the idea that 45 is overkill and 9mm is more cost effective, because Hornady and Vista Outdoors created magic bullets to game the bare minimum of the FBI ballistic lab's gel testing protocol (hollow points with resin/polymer plugs to delay expansion). The actual hair-splitting is when 9fags claim 9mm is superior because you can have a gun that holds 17 rounds in the magazine vs one that holds 15.

>>64217713
>physics doesn't apply

>>64217557
post guns

>>64217530 (OP)
>Almost identical case size
No.

Garbage thread, and if course it's another pistol caliber one.

>>64220080
I dont believe you

>>64220080
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TRUUUUUUUUE QUEEN. I've been trying to tell people for years, getting shot by .22 colibri is the same as getting shot by 5.56. Bullets are just hole punchers. A .50 BMG that removes your torso from your head will end you just as quickly as a 0.000000000000001mm pellet to the dick

>>64220204
Did you go to a public school in alabama? Your reading comprehension is atrocious.

>>64220215
Your understanding of reality is atrocious. If wound channel shape was all that that mattered then FPS would be irrelevant and every person would be shooting 600FPS bullets at each other as long as it gets to his back

>>64220232
mv2

>>64220248
Yes, when you remove more mass and more velocity your cartridge is less lethal, correct

>>64219767
:3

Yes, of course .45 is more powerful than 9mm. But is the difference enough to make a difference?

>>64217562
Agreed, Browning is overrated as fuck anyway.

>>64220275
>But is the difference enough to make a difference?
It is if you don't neuter the fuck out of .45's velocity to compete with 9mm's recoil.

More mass in a bullet compared to another bullet is better, but only if you don't lose FPS advantage in the process. A slow, fat bullet = a fast, small bullet. Hence why 9mm and .45 perform pretty much the same

>>64217557
That's because you're a weekend plinker at best, and the concepts of logistics and part standardization are unknown to you.

>>64220275
It is, but 9mm is better for compfags who have been bringing their gamer BS into the tactical and self-defense side of the gun industry since the 1990's. Some of their early brilliant ideas were things like Bomar sights and full-length guide rods on 1911s. Remember last year when fags decided that 2011s are the new "meta" carrying guns because they thought the John Wick movies full of Staccato and TTI product placement were real life? Compfags love 9mm because anyone who weighs over 120 lbs can shoot it effectively. SpecOps fags also loved 9mm in the 90's because they were doing nothing but training. As soon as 9/11 happened, they realized that their M9s were weak pea shooters and solicited the Joint Combat Pistol which unfortunately went nowhere most likely due to budgetary reasons.
>>64220297
Mr. Browning was a genius, but he designed a lot of piddly cartridges and cheap mouse guns, because that's what people bought back in those days. All the guns he designed for men were military small arms which poorfags in the general public didn't typically buy.
>>64220321
>9mm is better because it's cheaper and lighter
Thanks for proving our point lol

>>64220321
>concept of logistics
Yeah, why don’t they just order .45 ACP ammo instead 9mm? And just order the right parts for their guns instead of ordering the wrong parts?

Our military never depends on someone else’s supply lines, neither do our law enforcement agencies depend on bumming parts and ammo from someone else. They internally deal with all their own logistics.

Stupid 9mm faggot

>>64220607
The 2011 started life as a .45/.40 double stack, 2011 mags being originally designed to hold .45 ACP has plagued the platform for decades since putting 9mm into the same mag body causes issues.

>>64220153
pistol threads in general seem to attract the most contrarian, dunning kruger retards this board has to offer

>>64220653
Because 9mm SMGs are more common than .45 SMGs.

>>64220687
Reddit is the successor to tumblr, and it destroys everything it touches without exception

>>64220697
Why don’t we just get .45 ACP SMGs? We can just order those

We issued M3 grease guns into Desert Storm

>>64220687
I think it's because there are more pistol owners than long gun owners but yeah, these threads really bring the window lickers out

>>64220782
It's because anyone can admit that 308 is more powerful than 5.56, for example. Pistols are different because fags get their egos tied up into whatever they carry for self-defense and feel the need to prove to everyone else that it's adequate. Insulting a man's carry gun is basically telling him that you hope he gets raped by a pack of niggers.

>>64220080
It’s this simple and people are too retarded to take it seriously or understand. You need two handguns: 1 in a bigger bore for bear, and 1 in something that cycles reliably and has as much capacity as possible. There’s no point in making handgun #2 bigger than 9mm.

This is the exact same question we already asked in the 1940s about rifle calibers. The Germans knew it, the Soviets knew it, and even the U.S. knew that a smaller bullet with more ammo on body would be better for an individual than a big bullet with less. And even then the analogy breaks down because .30 cal full size rounds do verifiably more damage than 5.56, while a .357 doesn’t do meaningfully more damage than a 5.7.

Anyone who argues red in the face for big bore handguns is just attached to the pistols that shoot them. No better than the people who tried to sabotage the M16 program to keep the M14 alive

>>64220261
This only applies to calibers smaller than 9mm. Anything larger than 9mm is exactly the same in performance as 9mm.

>>64220910
3. You forgot a 22lr for spreading the good news to new frens.

>>64220910
You need 3 handguns ackshually
1: A 10mm running the hottest shit imaginable with more than 10 rounds of capacity (revolvers fail catastrophically if they get mashed into the soil/mud, most decent autos can be forced to go at least a few times)
2: The highest capacity 9 you can find
3: Compact carry 9mm
4: Ultracompact carry .380
5: A 1911 because 1911s are cool
6: A ruger .22 pistol because those are petty cool and in theory you might shoot a squirrel or put down a steer for beef eventually
7: A .44 magnum revolver because on the other hand revolvers don't suck that much
8: Love me .25 acp
9: Beretta m9. A classic
10. Another 1911
11: A tokarev maybe

>>64220970
12: Another tokarev for your other hand because Hard Boiled is cool

>>64220970
What's with the anons that take their guns for a mud bath all the time?

>>64221023
>Innawoods
>OWB carry of course
>Bear attack
>Highly likely to trip and fall
>Dirt is highly likely to be moist
>Some pin gets stuck
>Out of time

>>64220910
You do realize that "bears" were always a euphemism for 300 lb cracked-out giga-niggas, don't you? The proliferation of automobiles in the gangster era, along with recreational drugs among blacks, were primarily what drove 1920's US law enforcement to solicit more powerful handgun cartridges to replace those that were still hanging around from the black powder days. This started with 38 special replacing 38 long colt, and every new wave of street drugs and black race riots reignited the arms race between cops and criminals. This culminated with police departments abandoning revolvers en masse, and switching to comparatively high-capacity 40 S&W autoloaders after the Rodney King riots in 1992. 45 never had widespread adoption, since it was not politically correct to outfit cops with military weapons and gear prior to the North Hollywood shootout and 9/11 when police departments started to acquire lots of GWOT overruns and hand-me-downs.

>>64217843
Pretty gun
For some reason I just don't like handguns in all black

>>64218623
>>64218881

>>64217713 if that is the case then I'm just going to carry the largest possible caliber because I'm a badass motherfucker and it clearly doesn't put me at any disadvantage. Suit yourself if you want to be a wimpy little soiboy with your weak little Barbie wrists and your weak little Barbie caliber to match. The men's section starts at .4>>64217713

>>64217530 (OP)
>>9mm
Cheap, low recoil
>>Most effective round for law enforcement designated by FBI
.10mm was most effective from an autoloader. .40 also passed the same tests with less recoil. 9mm has never passed those tests. Never.
>>Backed up by decades of statistics
9mm? Decades of failure.

>>64220970
>>64220983
13. a derringer for card games

>>64221560
based and "its not supposed to be comfortable" pilled

>>64221825
post your guns

>>64221946
It’s actually about as comfortable as carrying a smaller 1911, just that concealment in a tshirt is more risky

>>64221948
Janny janny janny. Don't do anything that would EXPOSE yourself. That ISLAND stuff catches up to you.

>>64219044
>measuring cataracts with MOA
That's new, I chuckled

>>64218494
>FN model 10 for sovl
I mean it works, I’ll give it that.

>>64217917
>.45ACP
>Can’t penetrate car door
>Can’t make it through a thick window
>Getting attacked and defend myself with my 1911, my attackers thick coat stops every round from doing more than leaving a couple bruises

>>64222672
Nice example. How do you like it?

>>64222764
The magazine is pretty rough. It’s a 7rd mag and it won’t seat if it’s at fully loaded, have to load 6rds for it to lock in. It’s snappy and the sights are extremely low profile and puny, they’re still useable I was hitting 10’ steel target at 20 yards without issue, not making any good grouping with it though.

>>64221587
If you are skinny you dont suffer at all :)

>>64218169
He did by not choosing 1CM. .45 is fat old and slow just like it's users. Two nuclear bombings with 1CM can't be wrong

>>64221935
14. PM9 Evil Gun for e

>>64223169
Fellow Poop enjoyer spotted

>>64219290
May the forty-five be with you

>>64223156
>P320 has the highest kill count
Sig supremacy confirmed

>>64223257
I carry a 320 so if I die my gun can get one more shot off and avenge me when it hits the ground

>>64220910
>the M16
>a unreliable pos that got its users killed
>dickrides 9mm
Pottery.

>>64221587
bro that pic is blowing my mind
and yeah fuck the "all handgun calibers are the same" bullshit, cause guess what, if it doesnt matter, then im gonna carry .45 anyway cause my caveman brain likes the bigger bullets and carrying .45 makes me feel warm and fuzzy in a way that 9mm and my g21 has 14 rounds anyway which means i dont give a shit about the capacity argument either so suck it faggots

>>64223169
>PM9 Evil Gun
well looking that up certainly took my down a rabbit hole

>>64223524
It's always been apparent to me, I've just always preferred to suffer later.

>>64220090
>.380 is great for foids - femininoids.

for...shooting them?

>>64219305
>30 caliber range is master race.

7.62 Tokarev it is then.

>>64222691
None of that greentext is true.
(if you want better urban combat impact penetration choose .40 S&W)

>>64220003
I've shot .40 out of a 10mm with no issues, and .380 out of a 9mm that gave some bad FTEs. The case of the .380 is slightly fatter than 9mm. It can chamber but it expands and is difficult to extract. I was using steel case though so it expands more, about 1 in 3-4 rounds would FTE. Maybe brass would work.

>>64218149
I would worry more about shotplacement and competent draw then caliber.

Unless you are shooting at Sergio Oliva

Or making a weird shot like through the arm into the thorax Through a tough jacket.

Heart, spine, brain, aorta, portal veins, carotid , juggular, trachea, , brachial plexus, kneecap, will get you good results. Nuff to escape

Followed by testicle, liver, kidney, femoral, tracheal,

10mm , 357 3-4 incher will probably eliminate any weirdness .like bullet stopping just short of the heart from a weird angle

>>64220301
f = ma
force = mass x acceleration
A smaller, faster bullet has the same force as a larger, slower bullet.

>>64225469

OK Mr. Math guy then why don't I just use a slower but larger ACP round, and hollow it out so it's filled with compressed air and when it hits their body it explodes inside of them by bypasses the restriction on actual explosive ammunition?

>>64225469
You two are talking in circles around the actual ballistics. Energy is spent on impact and expanding the bullet. The faster you propel a bullet, the more impact resistance you get. And it is not 1 to 1. Momentum is velocity x mass. Momentum is what is carrying the bullet through the mammal. While you can increase the velocity of a smaller bullet and the numbers seem to be playing out as equals, they are not. Until you know how much you will spend on the increase in impact velocity you are just fumbling in the dark.
>>9mm and .45 perform the same
Lol, this guy is clueless.

>>64218149
as a .380 enjoyer, i don't carry it with anything that isn't a fluted hot load. the cartridge is a little anemic with just regular loadings and bullets, but fluted designs cause great soft tissue damage. larger calibers can take more advantage of it, but with it, .380 is adequate and a comfortable pocket carry for me. keep it right behind my phone since that's the thing people go for these days.

>>64225590

I heard that the fluted 380 rounds have a hard time chambering properly.Do you have a specific round you like?

>>64219515
See how taking a few 9mm to the midsection doesn't phase him?
Now watch >>64219290 and see how a .45acp drops niggers with 2 to the midsection. Stopping power isn't bigger bullet=more kinetic energy. Its bigger bullet has a better chance of hitting vitals than smaller bullet, and leaves a bigger fucking hole.
Don't know why lol9mm people can't get this through their heads.

>>64224689
Yeah, the cases are designed such that you can chamber the lower pressure cartridge in a firearm designed for the higher pressure cartridge but not vice versa. .40 in a 10 is fine, reaming a .40 chamber to accept a 10mm cartridge would be dangerous.

>>64225600
Pistol FRTs are going to turn the self defense meta on its head. A very controllable 6-10 shots of .380 will have a much higher chance of hitting vitals than two aimed shots of .45 in the same time.

>>64225707

Why just 6-10?

I have a bodyguard 2.0. It fits 12+1 and is small as fuck. If FRTs become meta I see no reason for someone to create a larger conceal carry for example my cz 75 compact holds 15 or 17+1 in 9mm and is easy to conceal carry. There's no reason they couldn't make something around that size with an FRT that throws out 20+ 380 instead

>>64226018
*I see no reason for someone to NOT create

>>64226018
Because your catastrophic failure plagued CZ will handle full auto without disassembling itself into a pile of broken parts...

>>64226031

I didn't mean to use that exact platform. I was just pointing out that there are guns easy to conceal that hold 15-17 +1 easily of 9mm. So if you are going to make FRT focused 380s as a meta you don't have to keep them micro compact sized. You can also use a slightly larger size that is still concealable but holds 20+ rounds of 380 instead of 6-10.

>>64225469
Dumbfuck that's what I just said, you didn't even read my comment before replying. Something like hot 10mm has more mass AND speed.

>>64225549
>9mm and .45acp perform the same
They do. 9mm is small but is a zippy round. .45acp is big but painfully slow.

Depending on the loading of course…with ++++++++P anything is possible

>>64217530 (OP)

So why not just neck a .45 case, down to 9mm, and put just a decent manufacture bullet in it?
Got the power, got more velocity and penetration, still transfers energy.
Woldn't that put this gay debate to bed?

>>64226575
are you trying to jebait people into implicitly saying they'd shoot .40?

>>64226590

As impossible as it sounds, it's a genuine suggestion. Any topic about 9mm instantly becomes a topic about 9mm vs .45. It might as well be a natural law.
Having recently watched a bunch of barrier breach tests with newish exotic calibers, it seems like the current trend is to use big casings, and slightly neck them down to smaller bullets, even in handguns.
They seem to do better especially in penetration tests, and out perform inbetween calibers.
If everyone is constantly angry about 9mm and .45, might as well combine them.
It'll go faster, shoot flatter, hit just as hard and in certain ways much harder, and you won't need hands with gigantism to hold onto the grips of the handgun.

>>64218875
Still did him in, and after all that he ended up with a shorter and more depressing Wiki than Jake fucking Lloyd

>>64218653
It is and Euro cops used it for around half a century. OP is gargling dicks as always

>>64221047
They have M27s and NODS now anon, and they still fuck around and play with their dicks while active shooters murder children

>>64217887
I'm not trusting my life to anything that you can shoot two politicians with 15 times and neither of them die

>>64218149
You probably already have the gun you shoot the best, now try out a few more that you like and decide for yourself
Bill Drill at a minimum
Dicken Drill if you want to be fancy

>>64220697
9mm was more common after the war so everyone adopted it then didn't want to change because "everyone uses it cause it's everywhere"

>>64221023
Fags watching other fags doing it on the jewtubes for clicks and wanting to be e-famous

>>64223926
It's nonlethal, so it's just like a moderately hard slap

>>64217677
>marshall and sanow
lol