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Thread 64224623

201 posts 98 images /k/
Anonymous No.64224623 [Report] >>64224714 >>64224717 >>64224774 >>64225096 >>64227250 >>64227294 >>64229684 >>64230078 >>64230416 >>64237743 >>64237950 >>64240360 >>64244205 >>64252634
Full body soft armor
From what I can see in the Yookraine-Rasha war most soldiers die from light drones, artillery and hand grenades, with gunfire causing a much smaller percentage of casualties. So why are soldiers not being equipped with full body soft armor? From my understanding, flakjackets like picrel are quite effective at stopping shrapnel while being very light. You could still equip soldiers with ceramic plates that cover their torso for when they do get into CQC
Anonymous No.64224714 [Report] >>64224718 >>64224724 >>64230078
>>64224623 (OP)
Oldass flak-jacket like pic related are obsolete and weight a ton.

We already got FAR superior alternatives in the 1990s:
the Armor Carriers, AKA "Full body armor vests", that compose a soft armor jacket + additional attachments + hard plates in front and back.
The US "Interceptor Body Armor" and the later "Improved Outer Tactical Vests" are prime examples of this, and just about every single nation has had their own armor vest variant for the past ~30 years or more.

Yes, Ukraine also started issuing a soft armor vest with plates as standard issue equipment years ago, and many countries did ship them their older stuff to back them up as well, hence why you see Ukrainian bois running in Ospreys, sometimes even PASGT.
But as usual, troops either don't want to wear them, simply because of "muh comfort" / "it's not COOL!"... or there's not enough of them to equip everyone. The Call Of Duty culture seriously brainwashes people, while the frontier operators obviously want to minimize their gear and indeed tank a few AK rounds to the chest if SHTF.

Yes, the modern (post-2005) "flak jackets" are indeed lightweight and flexible. I used to run around with one 15 years ago in Armeh exercises, and you don't even notice it. Didn't get plates back then, but these days a single NIJ Level III multi-hit rated plate can weight only 1 kilogram a piece, which is nothingburger.
Anonymous No.64224717 [Report]
>>64224623 (OP)
They're definitely coming back as a direct result of this war
Anonymous No.64224718 [Report] >>64224720 >>64224724 >>64227294
>>64224714
>*Oldass flak-jacket like the OP's pic are obsolete and weight a ton
FTFM, just to make it more clear.
IBA is already pretty comfy if you ask me, but it is late-90s tech.

Pic rel. is the Finnish M/91 Flak vest that already had hard plate pockets. It was mostly replaced by the superior M05 variants, and now there's even more recent versions.
Anonymous No.64224720 [Report] >>64226624 >>64230098 >>64230122 >>64232279
>>64224718
To think people in 2021 were seething and calling me a luddite when I said full body soft armor would be useful in a real shooting war
Anonymous No.64224724 [Report] >>64224730 >>64224737
>>64224714
>>64224718
But I meant "full body" as in also covering the arms and legs. I get that it's probably uncomfortable but less so than having a piece of shrapnel tear apart your legs.
Anonymous No.64224730 [Report] >>64224737 >>64224793
>>64224724
At best you'll get the groin flap and shoulder protectors because you can't fight otherwise
Anonymous No.64224737 [Report] >>64224749 >>64224793 >>64224865 >>64225184 >>64226635
>>64224724
Again, it all boils down to cost, availability, and comfort.

Every single modern, "traditional" war, like Ukraine boogaloo, causes insane material and manpower losses to both sides. This forces countries to start saving on anything they can, while maintaining minimum viable defensive and offensive capabilities.

The current estimate on the Eastern front for example is 400-4000 dead men a week.

>>64224730
That's not quite right either. Sets like pic related are very flexible and ergonomic, but they do cost a shitton of money. Not to mention seeing how scorching hot this year's summer was, the troops really were trying to avoid heat stroke. During winter time? This stuff's just gonna make you feel more comfy.
Anonymous No.64224749 [Report] >>64224762
>>64224737
>During winter time? This stuff's just gonna make you feel more comfy.
It's not super breathable so I beg to differ
I have some LARP vests that are just much thinner nylon but still pretty thick by tactical vest standards, and I already felt like I was going to get heatstroke in autumn just walking around at the range
Anonymous No.64224762 [Report] >>64224785 >>64224788 >>64224806 >>64226605 >>64226621
>>64224749
>It's not super breathable so I beg to differ
My zoomer nigger, I served in the Army. I "larped" in a modern (post-2005) flak vest, with real steel. That thing is super comfy and lightweight, and already during the sub-10 degrees C temps felt like a nice, puffy cold weather vest.

>I have some LARP vests that are just much thinner nylon but still pretty thick by tactical vest standards
I wonder what you even mean by this.
The average Plate Carrier protrudes inches out of your torso, where as the plain Kevlar / Dyneema vests is mere centimeter or so.
Anonymous No.64224774 [Report] >>64224780
>>64224623 (OP)
>From what I can see in the Yookraine-Rasha war most soldiers die from light drones, artillery and hand grenades, with gunfire causing a much smaller percentage of casualties. So why are soldiers not being equipped with full body soft armor? From my understanding, flakjackets like picrel are quite effective at stopping shrapnel while being very light. You could still equip soldiers with ceramic plates that cover their torso for when they do get into CQC

Watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPZIKLbZ7Wc
Anonymous No.64224778 [Report] >>64224781 >>64224784 >>64226916 >>64228927
Anonymous No.64224780 [Report]
>>64224774
By the way Russian ground forces have no fucking hope in a one to one with Azov assaulters, None.As prooved in every contct
Anonymous No.64224781 [Report] >>64226916
>>64224778
hell yeah
knightmaxxing
Anonymous No.64224784 [Report]
>>64224778
they have thigh protection as well
Anonymous No.64224785 [Report] >>64224791 >>64225032
>>64224762
I have no experience with that one
>I wonder what you even mean by this.
Older vests from before plate carriers became ubiquitous, like the FLC
Anonymous No.64224788 [Report] >>64225069 >>64226605 >>64226657 >>64226671 >>64227205
>>64224762
THis board spent years telling people plates only and fast and light was peak larperator while sane voices muttered as much kevalr cover as practical was necessary behind plates. The Ukraine war showed that the GWOT great thinkers were wrong in every way. Shit like DAPS, thigh cover, lower back covers, high collars and jewel protectors (including ceramic jewel cases) are it in assault or holding assault, Torso cover should be 40 layers as well. Full space marine and wade up to the neck in zigger blood on conntact, speed and aggression and good lines of fire.
Anonymous No.64224791 [Report]
>>64224785
There was never anything wrong with the OTC/IOTV/MTV concepts except wearing them in hot desert shitholes sucks later Ukranian designs in combat are based on them, the shark etc. Even plates over doubled up BW flak vest inserts work but the all round good torso cover has to be there even for recon.
Anonymous No.64224793 [Report] >>64224798 >>64225032 >>64227360
>>64224730
You can just leave uncovered space for the joints so that you can get mostly full RoM for every limb
>>64224737
Are they THAT strapped for cash? I figure soldiers dying or getting mutilated costs a fuckload more than doubling the amount of kevlar fabric used per soldier. What about militaries with larger budgets like the US? Heat and sweat buildup is a real concern though, I'll give you that.
Anonymous No.64224798 [Report] >>64224817 >>64226673 >>64227360
>>64224793
Russian front line troops rarely have anything actually bullet proof on them and have not for years
Anonymous No.64224806 [Report]
>>64224762
I alwsays found the old 20 layer BW vest comfy as fuck because of the way they move the weight off the hips but the inserts are not as good as the point blank. All the US designs were actually quite good cover wise though from the original interceptor though to the later IOTVs and MTVs. Plate carrier only is a bad joke though.
Anonymous No.64224817 [Report] >>64224838 >>64226673
>>64224798
because they're nihilists and DGAF about their own people's lives but that's besides the point. I'm asking about human armies.
Anonymous No.64224838 [Report]
>>64224817
It is more a by product of graft and corruption in Russia even at the start they wree finding that plates had been replaced with foam inserts and sold on. Unit commandser in the Rusisan military live on graft, bribes from the men to get out of assault, pocketing money for equipment, only paying men when the men need to pay them bribes, sending men who complain about not being paid into assault, once you understand this all Rusisan 'tactics' make more sense.
Anonymous No.64224865 [Report] >>64225032
>>64224737
The cost of body armor is a margin error in comparison to the total cost of a modern soldier. Not when it comes to Russia though, obviously.
Anonymous No.64225032 [Report] >>64225039 >>64230493
>>64224785
>Older vests from before plate carriers became ubiquitous, like the FLC
Those are NOT body armors, silly zoomie.
They are literally just load carrying vests, meant to hold your ammo and equipment.

Majority of the tactical armor vests got molle loops on their shell, meaning you do not need a separate LCE.

>>64224793
>Are they THAT strapped for cash?
There's not a single country on earth with an economy and resource pool to withstand a 24/7 war for multiple years, straight.

We saw this already during WW2, when everyone from States to UK started simplifying their weapons in order to save costs + speed up manufacturing.
Ruskeks have been issuing literal Stalin-era trash and now even Chink airsoft toys to their conscripts, as all the good stuff was blown up ages ago.

Remember: that gear is wearing down and getting blown to bits as well.
You need constant maintenance and a steady supply of replacements, which all stacks on top of the initial price tag.

There's also many PHYSICAL, human limitations in play.
The grunts wearing that shit need to run around, dismount vehicles, carry stuff, etc.

>>64224865
Technically correct,
but when you need to arm and equip hundreds of THOUSANDS of troops, and lose up to thousands every day, all sort of physical limits start showing up.

Yes, in the perfect world, every single troop would wear a proper 360-protective suit, but that's just not viable. And considering that some conscript militaries had grunts running around with nothing but a helmet just a few short years ago (yes, during the 2000s), the addition of a mere P.C. is already a big aid.

Final note:
you can thank the Americunt "operators" fooling around in the Mid-East desert region for the past 30 years for the popularization of these "hi-speed, low-drag" equipment, like high-cut helmets and Plate Carriers.
Hot environment + only facing goat-fuckers with old AKs, with constant air and COMs dominance really twisted people's understanding of the real deal wars.
Anonymous No.64225039 [Report]
>>64225032
>Those are NOT body armors, silly zoomie.
You think I don't know that? My point is that there's a lot less nylon and other shit than there would be with actual armor on and it's still hot as fuck
Anonymous No.64225069 [Report] >>64225194
>>64224788
>THis board spent years telling people plates only and fast and light was peak larperator while sane voices muttered as much kevalr cover as practical was necessary behind plates.

by 'this board' you mean several people? there have always been pro-flak people on the board but your opinion is trash unless you've larped in full 3a with plates. they suck ass in any temperatures above 50F and, from an american DWOT standpoint, flak protection just isn't as useful as a lightweight and concealable L4 plate carrier.
Anonymous No.64225096 [Report] >>64226928 >>64232291
>>64224623 (OP)
>So why are soldiers not being equipped with full body soft armor? From
1. Institutional cognitive inertia mostly. Even back during the 2014-2015 shitfest in Donbas soldiers that were smart enough bought a ton of german kevlar vests, specifically because they knew that shrapnel is usually the biggest issue.
2. On top of that, many soldiers like to whine about weight, volume and heat. Only the heat is a valid issue IMO.
Anonymous No.64225184 [Report]
>>64224737
>those gaps
ngmi either way so might as well issue an IOTV or similar and call it a day.
Anonymous No.64225194 [Report] >>64225220 >>64234842
>>64225069
>lightweight and concealable L4 plate carrier.
that's oxymoron.
The closest to "light and concealable" PC you can get would be the default level 3 plates, not even multi-hit rated necessarily.
NIJ level 2 panels would provide good enough flak protection for most people, and those are so thin and lightweight, chances are you've worn leather jackets heavier than the modern flak vests.
Anonymous No.64225220 [Report] >>64225230
>>64225194
>"the default level 3 plates"

what does that even mean?
Anonymous No.64225230 [Report] >>64226569 >>64226633
>>64225220
Regular NIJ Level 3 (not 3A) plates, that are neither standalone (less common these days) nor rated for multiple hits (also becoming less common now; most plates can take 5 or more direct hits from the projectiles they're meant to stop).

More basic hard plates = thinner, less weight.
That being said, I do recall seeing "3+" rated light weight ones already a decade ago. Also some buoyant types, that were more bulky but apparent very light.

The steel-only plates are a whole different animal,
but many L4 plates are actually steel or titanium backed L3 plates.
Anonymous No.64226481 [Report]
When are we going to get the future we deserve, bros?
Anonymous No.64226569 [Report]
>>64225230
This is very weirdly worded. You can separate L3 plates into steel / titanium, all polyethylene, and ceramics.
Poly plates are almost always buoyant. They are light but thick and weak to steel core ammo.
Ceramics are the best overall and provide comprehensive protection. However, they often need 2" spacing between hits.
Steel is the heaviest but permits the tightest shot spacing. Weak to high velocity rounds like M193 and varmint .223 in the 30-55gr range. Also spall. Also cheap as hell. L3 steel weighs more than L4 ceramic.
All Level III plates are rated for 6x 7.62x51mm M80 at 2,750ft/s +-30 "III+" is unofficial and can mean M855, M193, M855A1, etc. Anything. IV is just 1x .30-06 steel core M2AP at 2,880ft/s +-30.
>L4 plates are steel or titanium backed L3.
Uh, no. Level IV plates are almost always ceramic. They use a much thicker ceramic strike face but a thinner fiberglass, aramid, or PE backer. L4s are not required to pass the L3 test. They weigh more, stop much harder threats, but are often cheaper and compromise multi hit. Examples. Hesco 4403 is rated for 3x M80. $420 a set. Much cheaper than many Level IIIs. The super cheap, NIJ suspended, rather bad Level IV RMA 1155 has lost to two .308 twice before in independent tests.
Anonymous No.64226605 [Report] >>64228370
>>64224788
>>>64224762 #
>THis board spent years telling people plates only and fast and light was peak larperator
You realize that it's a nuanced situation that you can't just scream midwit takes at right?

You have to consider threat profiles when choosing how to protect yourself.
You can't just look at something going on half a world away and say "yep, that's 100% applicable here with zero changes."
Anonymous No.64226621 [Report] >>64231109
>>64224762
>real steel
You mean ceramic, right?
Anonymous No.64226624 [Report] >>64231363
>>64224720
Nobody serious disagrees, its just that modern full body armor also needs plates on top of the soft armor.
Anonymous No.64226633 [Report] >>64226659
>>64225230
>nor rated for multiple hits

most plates can take multiple hits its just that in the past no one wanted to say they could for fear of lawsuits. now that larperating is popular and there are lots of 'low to mid range' armor companies everyone can say their shit is multi-hit
Anonymous No.64226635 [Report] >>64227091
>>64224737
That armor is to disarm bombs, not to get shot and dodge shrapnel.
Anonymous No.64226643 [Report] >>64226915
Anonymous No.64226657 [Report]
>>64224788
Western troops in the GWOT already wore all that. Even Delta Force were wearing big crotch protectors.
Anonymous No.64226659 [Report]
>>64226633
>no one wanted to say they could.
NIJ has been around since 1972. All ratings except IV have been six hit, 2" spacing (or 3" if .357 mag for II, 3" .44 magnum for IIIA but that rating came later) for more than 50 years now.
IVs have also been multi-hit for some time. The trick is shot spacing because they're ceramic. There were 15-hit "LIBA" Level IVs more than twenty years ago using a ceramic pellet layup.
Anonymous No.64226671 [Report] >>64226677
>>64224788
>The Ukraine war

stop basing everything you know on ONE specific war. ukraine is trench warfare because its a primarily rural country with lots of fields and both sides cant afford to lose aircraft.
Anonymous No.64226673 [Report] >>64226684
>>64224798
>>64224817
Russian troops do have body armor, especially Spetznaz, mercenaries and VDV and Sea Infantry. The North Koreans in Kursk also had them as standard issue. Unless you're Spetznaz or North Korean you basically have to buy it yourself though.

In fact, the actually well equipped Russian units wear a lot of heavy gear, deltoids, crotch protectors etc like the Ukrainians do.
Anonymous No.64226677 [Report] >>64226692 >>64226694
>>64226671
Hegelian dialectics.
1. Thesis. GWOT means you gotta be fast and run just slick PC + 3 mags.
2. Antithesis. Ukraine shows you need auxillary and extremity armor plus 15 mags a man.
3. Synthesis. Mission dictates equipment.
Anonymous No.64226684 [Report] >>64226709 >>64232344
>>64226673
The issue is that their mainline infantry lack competent 21st century armor. ESAPIs from 2006 mog Russian granit plates. A lot of Russians are using sheet metal you can bend with bare hands.
Anonymous No.64226692 [Report] >>64226702
>>64226677
>GWOT means you gotta be fast and run just slick PC + 3 mags

not it doesn't you fucking retard, plenty of soldiers in the ME were wearing full turtle-armor because of IEDs.
Anonymous No.64226694 [Report] >>64228342
>>64226677
>Mission dictates equipment.
This is the highest IQ galaxy brain post answer to basically every petty gay argumentative OP on /k/ and it'll never be accepted by them.
Fucking impossible concept.
Anonymous No.64226702 [Report] >>64226729 >>64252676
>>64226692
Are the IEDs in the room with us right now, or is everyone mimicing mid-2010s SOCUM with their slick PCs and enough ammo for five minutes?
Anonymous No.64226709 [Report] >>64226722
>>64226684
Yeah, the regular line infantry has been degraded horribly, but the whole reason you see all these depleted VDV, Sea Infantry and Spetznaz units being sent all over the place is because they're still above most Russian troops in gear and even training. Their job is practically saving and maintaining these regular chumps alive.
Anonymous No.64226722 [Report]
>>64226709
True. However, even the top shelf armor in Russia is poor by western standards. They have plates rated to stop advanced threats like 7N37, but the combination of plate, soft armor, and climatic amortization panel (KAP - 1" thick trauma pad) produces a 2" / 9lb solution. Then add all that auxillary soft armor. Lot of weight. Much of it imported from China.
The West could do the same for 2/3rds the weight, easy, but it'll be costly.
Anonymous No.64226729 [Report] >>64226737
>>64226702
you are 5 years too late to be angry about highspeed gearqueerism. no one even cares about gear anymore, the fad rn is concealed carrying.
Anonymous No.64226737 [Report] >>64226759
>>64226729
no the fad in /gq/ is looking like drag queen darth vader with cloaked platecarriers. Get with the times gramps!
Anonymous No.64226759 [Report] >>64226771
>>64226737
can you even post one example?
Anonymous No.64226771 [Report]
>>64226759
How about four?
>>64222428
>>64221475
>>64221456
>>64223654
Anonymous No.64226838 [Report] >>64226845 >>64230078 >>64234842
This one is called a "Fort" suit, and is lined with enough aramid to supposedly protect the wearer from shrapnel. I don't know to what degree this is fielded among combatants in Ukraine. In any case they look heavy and hot, newer variants sacrifice protection for venting and airflow. According to depotmilitary dawt cawm they cost like 10 G's new.
Anonymous No.64226845 [Report] >>64226875
>>64226838
forgot to include, the guy on the right and crouching guy on the left and right are wearing them at least
Anonymous No.64226875 [Report]
>>64226845
Looks like a reduced evolution of the FORT "gladiator" suit. The aramid is probably equivalent to IIIA, plates are likely either FORT ACP-Gs (B-32 API / M995), ACP-Ms (7N37 / 7N39) or Shelkovo GOST-BR5s.
Anonymous No.64226915 [Report]
>>64226643
this is 20 pounds btw
Anonymous No.64226916 [Report] >>64226921
>>64224778
>>64224781
I just realized this whole convo about how much armor is appropriate has been literally ongoing for hundreds if not thousands of years.
>a gambeson and chainmail is more than enough for most threats
>no good sire, you need to have a breastplate on whenever you leave your tent during a campaign
>a good helmet with shoulder coverings is all you need anyway
>hahh, fi'thy peasants, unless it's full plate armor that completely covers every inch of your body including your horse, it's completely worthless
>yeah fuckwit, have fun outmaneuvring horse archers
Etc. I just think it's interesting that most normal citizens can get enough armor on them that they would have to call in the national guard to deal with them. Which is based and i can respect someone who unironically trains with that, but in actuality all you really ''need'' is a pistol with a full mag.
But yea i just hope both sides have fun
Anonymous No.64226921 [Report]
>>64226916
Check out Jinwudun's soft armor.
Anonymous No.64226928 [Report] >>64226934 >>64227990 >>64228390
>>64225096
>Only the heat is a valid issue IMO.
I agree with this sentiment. Couldn't we do a plate carrier / armor setup that would have cooling or some sort of AC in it? I have no idea if this is viable whatsoever so this might be retarded for various reasons but i'm curious.

I know they have pipe modules for cops that attach to the AC vents of a cars that can pump in air under their vests. Some folks say it will ''give you instant pneumonia'' but other cops swear by it, saying it has saved them during the summer heat from heatstroke. Idk what to believe desu but there's only anecdata out there about it
Anonymous No.64226934 [Report]
>>64226928
There's a bunch of options.
1. Many trauma pads like Russian KAPs double as a ventilation / spacing solution.
2. Ice vests under the armor. These melt eventually and are a temp solution.
3. Fan vests. These are noisy and need battery power.
4. Recirculating liquid cooling. Electricity needed and expensive.
Anonymous No.64227091 [Report] >>64227325
>>64226635
That isn't to disarm bombs, look at all the gaps there. Meant for SWAT duty
Anonymous No.64227205 [Report] >>64234842
>>64224788
>plates only and fast and light
This was due in part to community overlap with /r/tacticalgear, which for some time was overrun by a clique of bullshit artists with very high credit limits and poor spending habits. Everything had to mimic tier 1 SOF and everything had to be top shelf. $2,500 plates. $7,000 NV. $3,500 thermal on the gun. A COTI for the NV. Velocity systems. LBT. Crye.
And then they collectively dipped when people realized they were paying a fortune for no reward. Both sides in Ukraine are rolling Chinese shit here and there and getting by in actual combat.
These dudes were buying gray market LTC 28595s for home defense.
Anonymous No.64227250 [Report] >>64228920
>>64224623 (OP)
>soldiers die from light drones, artillery and hand grenades
Yeah demoralize the Ruskis by forcing them to wear soft armour instead of plate carrying MOLLEs. Or are you recommending that Ukraine downgrade their armour to allow for more casualties to make it less like a complete failure?
Anonymous No.64227294 [Report] >>64227306
>>64224623 (OP)
>>64224718
Can one even buy soft flak vests these days?
Anonymous No.64227306 [Report] >>64227382
>>64227294
if you mean the old style without plates, surplus. if you mean the new style WITH plates, yeah.
Anonymous No.64227325 [Report]
>>64227091
>That isn't to disarm bombs, look at all the gaps there. Meant for riot squad duty
FTFY
Anonymous No.64227360 [Report] >>64228029 >>64228934
>>64224798
>>64224793
They've been issuing sheet metal plates you can bend with your bare hands. The only country on earth that actually has a wartime stockpile of armor / plates is the US. The total number of ESAPI / XSAPI plates manufactured by Ceradyne alone, going off of purchase contracts, exceeds four million as of the mid-2010s.
Anonymous No.64227382 [Report] >>64227404 >>64227405
>>64227306
I see full body armor on auction on certain sites.
Anonymous No.64227404 [Report]
>>64227382
check eBay, I've found PASGT vests on there before.
Anonymous No.64227405 [Report]
>>64227382
You can buy "full" armor new from the Chinese on the cheap. This getup is an extreme example from a B-rate manufacturer, (Fearless X - Jinwudun) but has Level IV plates and like sixteen IIIA soft armor panels included for $1,060.
Anonymous No.64227990 [Report] >>64227994 >>64230113
>>64226928
I'm considering buying those cooling vests that furries wear under their suits. I donxt know why soldiers dont wear this as standard issue but it sounds great
https://www.ezcooldown.com/
Anonymous No.64227994 [Report] >>64227998
>>64227990
you mean IcePlates?
Anonymous No.64227998 [Report]
>>64227994
NTA, but an iceplate is a water bladder that replaces the ballistic plate in the rear of your carrier. This is a vest you wear under your carrier.
Anonymous No.64228029 [Report] >>64228046
>>64227360
Are those the 1980s Afghanistan era steel plates?
Anonymous No.64228046 [Report] >>64228942
>>64228029
Negative. These are the "red metal" plates that have been made and issued from 2022 to present. The steel is far, far too soft and ductile for use as armor. It's placebo armor so the troops have "something" to put in their carriers that they think is armor. If you're sending men to die with empty carriers it's basically telling them "yo we're broke and we ain't paying your family the ten boxes of cereal when you die!"
Anonymous No.64228342 [Report]
>>64226694
sorry but reincarnation is real bro
Anonymous No.64228370 [Report]
>>64226605
Yeah would you rather
>Send 50 troops inna desert
>In 30 pounds of armor
>And 20% of them suffer heat casualties before even hitting contact
Or would you rather
>Send 50 troops inna desert
>With twenty pounds of extra water an ammo
>And none of them even break a sweat

Which way, white man?
Anonymous No.64228390 [Report]
>>64226928
Pneumonia is a type of lung infection lmao
It's like people saying you'll catch a cold if you're outside in the rain or snow; bitch we get colds from staying inside with other people
Anonymous No.64228920 [Report]
>>64227250
did you read the entire post and everything below? higher coverage of soft armor would massively reduce casualties. retard.
Anonymous No.64228927 [Report]
>>64224778
They're just missing vambraces and thigh guards
Anonymous No.64228934 [Report] >>64229462
>>64227360
>The only country on earth that actually has a wartime stockpile of armor / plates is the US.
Bristol-Myers Squibb ceramics are the gold standard anon and they are not American
Anonymous No.64228942 [Report]
>>64228046
this
Anonymous No.64229462 [Report] >>64252727
>>64228934
That would actually be Ceradyne, which is American, before they got bought out. Their boron enrichment process is virtually lost technology at this point.
Most common armor manufacturers use CoorsTek (American), Bitossi (Italian), Saint Gobain (American but parent company is French), or other strike face manufacturers. Only a few are fully integrated and do final assembly of strike face + backer (often Honeywell Spectra or Dyneema products) plus strike face manufacturing.
Anonymous No.64229684 [Report] >>64231120 >>64234842
>>64224623 (OP)
Army has the idea of integrating liner into the shirt for their short lived ballistic combat shirt.
Anonymous No.64229720 [Report] >>64229833
We need like, scale armor. Something as tough as a dragon. It can all be held together by glue.
Anonymous No.64229833 [Report]
>>64229720
Dragonskin... it's been a long time. Pic rel is the shorthand full history of it. Basically it works fine as long as it's not conditioned and never exposed to substances that can dissolve the glue, like gasoline. An old-timer SME, Dr. Gary K. Roberts, tested a dragonskin panel many years ago and it stopped dozens of rifle rounds.

The disadvantages are threefold:
1. Cost. Even modern dragonskin is ludicrously expensive.
2. Weight. A full vest of SOV-3000 Level IV is about 40-45lb alone.
3. Durability, as mentioned above gasoline causes problems. 60% failure rate per army testing.
Anonymous No.64230078 [Report] >>64230122 >>64240197 >>64241894
>>64226838
These suits have protection on extremities level V non penetration 270 m/s vs 1 gram FSP. Basically they dont protect from "shrapnel"

>>64224714
>>64224623 (OP)
Frag protection of the Interceptor vest from the CO/PD 00-02G document
V50 vs 4 grain RCC is 2400 fps. For context average fragments from VOG-17 are 6 grains at 3950 fps (and this is not a bug, but a feeature. VOG-17 controlled fragmentation parameters were designed to defeat PASGT armor that has similar protection)
This "fragmentation protection armor" would not save you from fragments. In context of OP question. Drops from drones and FPV kamikaze, they explode at close range where fast frags defeat Kevlar armor.
Anonymous No.64230098 [Report]
>>64224720
You just got unlucky. I'm sure plenty of people agreed with you, they just couldn't be bothered to argue with the smooth-brains who had the weight of current practice and two decades of GWOT on their side.
Anonymous No.64230113 [Report] >>64230294
>>64227990
>https://www.ezcooldown.com/
I was going to suggest phase change material cooling garments but you beat me to it. The next step is to make a small freezer that plugs into an automobile for recharging the packs.
Anonymous No.64230122 [Report] >>64231158
>>64224720
>full body soft armor would be useful in a real shooting war
not >>64230078
Anonymous No.64230294 [Report]
>>64230113
This looks like the winner so far. Anyone got bad experiences?
Anonymous No.64230416 [Report] >>64230590 >>64231165
>>64224623 (OP)
Soft armour isn't going to be the future, its fine against smaller scaled traditional fragmentation from mortars and shells. It however struggles against preformed shrapnel, which is getting increasingly common in modern munitions.

The future is going to probably be based around better shaped UHMWPE and ceramic armour with a bit of soft armour to supplement it. Also, unfortunately at the moment some of the russian designs such as the Strelok and MRS 2.0 are ahead in terms of design when compared to to western equilevants.
Anonymous No.64230493 [Report] >>64231109
>>64225032
where the hell do they keep their shit? They don't have enough to even sustain 1 firefight
Anonymous No.64230590 [Report] >>64231165
>>64230416
I agree. The Russian equipment is ahead of the curve design wise but they're behind in materials. They're ten years behind Honeywell in terms of UHMWPE and probably 10-15 behind where Tencate is in terms of ceramics.
I do think in circumstances where quality medical care is gone you'll want more armor, not less, until mobility (which is its own armor) is impeded.
Anonymous No.64231109 [Report]
>>64226621
>You mean ceramic, right?
No, I don't.
"Real steel" = real WEAPONS and live ammo.

>>64230493
Ranger setups are / were much lighter on gear and ammo than the average grunts. Didn't even bother with body armor before the mid-2010s.
Anonymous No.64231120 [Report]
>>64229684
>short lived
It didn't work out?
Anonymous No.64231158 [Report] >>64231475
>>64230122
He doesn't mean specific interceptor vests dummy, just kevlar armor with plates in general in a generic way
Anonymous No.64231165 [Report]
>>64230416
>>64230590
Designs like that only exist as projects that last forever so the budget can get looted. It's why its real impressive and expensive yet never gets deployed anywhere.
Anonymous No.64231363 [Report] >>64231703 >>64232224 >>64232293
>>64226624
Why on top?
Saw finns wear plates out of their coveralls.
I'd assume plates closer to the body would allow easier movement/weight-distrib. Look im wrong, but why?
t. nogunz here for the airforce/ballistics...
Anonymous No.64231475 [Report] >>64232639
>>64231158
They are about the same in frag protection capabilities. Kevlar cant stop fast frags.
Anonymous No.64231703 [Report] >>64232224
>>64231363
Soft armor is worn behind the plates for three reasons.
1. It does the same job as the plate's composite or fiberglass backer, or tries to. Catching fragmented projectiles that make it past the plate's ceramic strike face. Many plates like US SAPI / ESAPI / XSAPI require soft armor behind the plates.
2. Trauma reduction. Soft armor reduces backface deformation even for standalone plates.
3. Soft armor is extremely ineffective by itself against rifle rounds. M193 can clear more than 150 layers of kevlar (a classic IIIA vest is 35) and still kill just fine. Use the plate to shatter projectiles first.
Anonymous No.64232224 [Report]
>>64231703
>3. Soft armor is extremely ineffective by itself against rifle rounds. M193 can clear more than 150 layers of kevlar (a classic IIIA vest is 35) and still kill just fine. Use the plate to shatter projectiles first.
I found one experiment where 50 mm or 96 layers of laminated kevlar (impractically thick for infantry) will stop 7.62x51 9.7g at 857m/s lead core round. The author of experiment also noted a 25mm thick MAS (multilayered armor system) which composed of ceramic front layer, kevlar mid layer and aluminum backer combo would also stop the same round.

>>64231363
Kevlar cant really stop high velocity rifle rounds so you gotta put something rifle rated infront of it.

https://youtu.be/uDvdcZO1nkM?t=445
According to this 45 layers of kevlar can stop (but fail lvl3A standards anyway) m193 out of 16 inch barrel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM0SpYfOCJ8
This guy shot 5.56 and 7.62 rifle rounds at the muzzle (with no barrel length specified so the test is kinda bad) into level 3A panels and penetrated depending on round 4 or 6 panels.

https://youtu.be/zErupXARACI?t=339
This guy shot 5.56 from a 16inch barrel and penetrated 4 layers of lvl3a panels with the round getting stopped in the 1th lvl2A soft armor. 7.62x39 FMJ stopped on the 2nd lvl2a soft armor.

https://youtu.be/NBjWj2ik51I?t=212
Oxide tested lvl3a soft armor panel from safe vest at 550 meters (600 yards) with 3 shots of 5.56 m855 from a 18inch rifle. All 3 rounds penetrated
Anonymous No.64232279 [Report] >>64232293 >>64232314
>>64224720
I still disagree. Id rather have a place carrier with side plates and a dick flap. Soft armor is hot and mostly useless. The only thing its may help against is indirect fire but they have vehicles and trenches to deal with that. If you’re on an assault you want mobility and an apc is probably getting you close. I know this is 4chan and my dad works for Nintendo or whatever but im speaking from experience. If we fought in high humidity id lose the side plates too. Everything is a tradeoff but the level of protect most soft armor offers doesnt cut it and there are some insanely light plates these days. Even less exotic more common plates are getting lighter and lighter.
Anonymous No.64232291 [Report] >>64233643
>>64225096
Those were donated and everyone ditched them for better shit the second they could. No individual was “buying” them. I still have mine, i couldn't find anyone who even wanted it. Lot of us also inserted Italian and polish plates in those.
Anonymous No.64232293 [Report] >>64232300 >>64232315
>>64231363
>Saw finns wear plates out of their coveralls.
>I'd assume plates closer to the body would allow easier movement/weight-distrib. Look im wrong, but why?
That's how it has always been, and always will be.
Soft armor closest to the body, to work as a padding between your skin and the plate. It cushions the hits and improves the protective traits of the plates too.

Pic related; some WIP guy literally wearing a PC on top of soft armor vest.

>>64232279
Plates are hotter and heavier by default.
People seriously underestimate the ergonomix improvements of modern armor designs.

>The only thing its may help against is indirect fire
No no, that IS what it it is GREAT against.
And no, "vehicles" and "trenches" are not gonna save you, that's what everyone aims at nowadays by default.

Everyone always bitches and whines about armor and even helmets, but every single guy also starts wearing them when their convo gets hit by a IED but don't lose their balls thanks to dick flap.
Anonymous No.64232300 [Report] >>64232340
>>64232293
> Plates are hotter and heavier by default
You are just flat out wrong. I dont think im going to change your mind and I know from experience you are not going to change mine. Have nice day
Anonymous No.64232314 [Report] >>64234842
>>64232279
>insanely light plates these days
And you'll either compromise protection or pay out the nose for them.
1. All-PE plates like the Hesco 3800 / 3801 are extremely light (3801 is under 2lb) but get their ass kicked by M855. Therefore equivalents like 7N10 / 7N10M or higher rounds like M855A1 / 7.62x39 7N23 / 5.45 7N22 / 7.62x54R LPS will have them on the ropes very badly even at range.
2. Many of the ultralight Level IVs like the Hesco 4800, Dayton RF3, all perform poorly because they are built with virtually no headroom. Buffman tested a Hesco 4800 and it bombed 1/2 .30-06 M2AP because he subjected it to a simulated drop test.
3. Many of the even lighter plates from literal whos like American Blast have undersized strike faces and/or flat out don't perform.
>less exotic more common plates are getting lighter and lighter
I mean ESAPI is down to 5lb flat as of the VTP iteration and XSAPI 5.5lb, but they're having trouble getting those to actually meet spec. Commercial plates are actually trending up in weight ever since 0101.06 was published in 2008 and plates had to start passing drop tests. If you backtrack to the 0101.04 days, Level IVs like the Diamondback Tactical B-4 and Protech 9812-R1 are equally light or lighter versus current Level IVs. The 9812-R1, drop tests aside, mogs the rest of the civilian-accessible Level IV lineup.
Armor is also being subjected to more scrutiny lately and guys like Hesco aren't able to get away with no-headroom designs. 4403, 4601, 4801 are all heavier than their predecessors.
Highcom's lineup is virtually the same as what they were selling 20 years ago.
RMA's lineup lost all their SiC / B4C options.
LTC is abiding by an annoying "10 year rule" where they don't sell anything to civilians that isn't either a monkey model or heavily out of date.
Tencate just flat out doesn't like selling to civilians.
Ceradyne is defunct.
Anonymous No.64232315 [Report] >>64232331
>>64232293
When i go back to the front in october im not bringing my german flak rig that is bulky hot and heavier than my pc and that i can only stuff 2 ak mags in. I dont think you would find any fighters who would agree with you.
Anonymous No.64232331 [Report]
>>64232315
>im not bringing my german flak rig that is bulky hot and heavier than my pc
I don't know what the fuck you've jammed into your vest, because I've owned one of those German flaks for over 18 years, and it's super lightweight and flexible.
Obviously you're not meant to use the front pockets for any serious LC.

>I dont think you would find any fighters who would agree with you.
You are talking to one.
Not Ukrainian, but we already got issued proper plate-carrying flakvests 15 years ago. Shit was comfy, and during the autumn time, the extra warmth was nice.
Anonymous No.64232340 [Report]
>>64232300
No he's actually right on the money. You're not getting plates lighter than soft armor. There are rumors of a SOCOM-issue covert 1lb polyethylene plate rated to 7.62x39mm mild steel core but if you can't buy it it's basically a fairy tale. Plates are also inflexible unless you want to talk about Hexar / FRAS / Dragonskin / Ceraflex business but those are dramatically thicker and heavier than soft armor. It's just the nature of the game.
Anonymous No.64232344 [Report] >>64232348
>>64226684
>ESAPIs from 2006 mog Russian granit plates
This is false by the way.
Anonymous No.64232348 [Report] >>64232354
>>64232344
5.45lb + soft armor gets you 6.2lb protection against .30-06 M2AP. Granits only protect you against 7.62x54R B-32 API, are made of greatly inferior Alumina ceramic, and need both soft armor and a climatic amortization panel (trauma pad) to meet specs.
It is true that Russian armor posts significantly lower BFD than ESAPIs (~17mm limit vs 44mm), but that's with the assistance of a 1" trauma pad. Give the ESAPI a KAP behind it and see what happens.
You aren't beating B4C with Alumina against steel-core threats.
Anonymous No.64232354 [Report] >>64232368
>>64232348
>Granits only protect you against 7.62x54R B-32 API
False. GarandThumb couldn't penetrate it with .30-06 M2AP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDemr-l0gYo
Anonymous No.64232368 [Report] >>64232377
>>64232354
>out of a garand with no chronograph
Try 2,880ft/s as per the actual ESAPI spec. Thanks.
Anonymous No.64232377 [Report] >>64232394
>>64232368
>Cope
No problem, buddy.

Reminder that ESAPI needs a backer to do the same.
Anonymous No.64232394 [Report] >>64232410
>>64232377
>ESAPI needs a backer to do the same
And is still lighter, lol. Granits are Aluminum Oxide 1990s throwback technology.
Anonymous No.64232407 [Report] >>64232597
>the state of modern russian armor
Anonymous No.64232410 [Report] >>64232428
>>64232394
They should start making ESAPIs with that 1990s throwback technology, since it could stop M2 AP without backer and on compromised strike face.
Anonymous No.64232428 [Report] >>64232441
>>64232410
They do, it's called going over to Highcom and buying a 4SAS4 for $99.99. Pic related plate from Linry is less than thirty dollars and technologically equivalent to a granit. Aluminum oxide tile array + PE backer.

Nowadays, ESAPIs weigh 5lb flat and stop 3x .30-06 M2AP @ 2,880ft/s or 3x 5.56x45mm M995 @ 3,400ft/s per current VTP specs. Know granits that can do that?
Granits rated only for 7.62x54R B-32 API, steel core, literally weigh more than XSAPIs that can stop 3x 7.62x51mm M993, tungsten carbide, at 3,050ft/s.
Anonymous No.64232441 [Report] >>64232449
>>64232428
>Mega cope peppered with lies
>5 lb ESAPIs bro
>Granit stopping .30-06 M2 AP on a damaged strike face isn't real, trust me!
LOL! Are you paid for this gig or its just your autism outlet?
Anonymous No.64232449 [Report] >>64232457
>>64232441
I'm waiting on your Granit test at actual Level IV / ESAPI velocity.
Anonymous No.64232457 [Report] >>64232473
>>64232449
Keep waiting schizo, it'll arrive right after you get your hands on a 5 lb medium ESAPI ahahahahaha.
Anonymous No.64232473 [Report] >>64232493
>>64232457
>https://www.catalystsurplus.com/product-page/gen-iii-s-esapi?
You have my permission to use google.
Anonymous No.64232493 [Report] >>64232500
>>64232473
>VTP
LOL why do you even try.
>The results of testing, however, were less than encouraging: during initial testing, various versions of three out of four of the armor plates — the ESBI, ESAPI, XSAPI plates, specifically — failed to meet ballistic protection requirements.
Anonymous No.64232500 [Report] >>64232503
>>64232493
That article was from 2021 when VTP was just underway and they were having trouble meeting the weight / protection requirements.
Anonymous No.64232503 [Report] >>64232509
>>64232500
Exactly. So they met protection requirements by not having the weights listed on that table.
Anonymous No.64232509 [Report] >>64232518
>>64232503
they completed first article testing in Q4 2021 without changing the specs. Your article is from 1/25/21. It's been more than four years dimitri. That is one more year than your three day special operation.
Anonymous No.64232518 [Report] >>64232533
>>64232509
>without changing the specs
That's false again. Why do you keep lying? The plate you linked is swimmer cut, they literally reduced coverage because classic SAPI cut couldn't be made at that weight.
Anonymous No.64232533 [Report] >>64232556
>>64232518
Yes, they changed to a swimmer cut and raised BFD limit to 58mm from 44mm when they went from REV. J to VTP. I was talking about the Q1 2021 VTPs versus the fielded Q4 VTPs.

What you're missing is that there is no equivalent Russian armor. ESAPIs and XSAPIs have been procured by the hundreds of thousands for more than a decade.
Anonymous No.64232556 [Report] >>64232571
>>64232533
What you're missing is the medication for your mental illness.

>Granit is only for b-32
>Proven wrong by garand fucking thumb
>W-w-well ESAPI is lighter! 5 lbs!
>Proven wrong by the fucking army, who had to increase bfd to TWO FUCKING INCHES and make the plate in Swimmer, Not SAPI-cut, to get anywhere close to it
>About to be proven wrong about there being no equivalent armor in Russia...
... By the fact that 6b43 was adopted in 2010, and 6b45 was adopted in 2014, both shipped with granit plates.
Anonymous No.64232571 [Report] >>64232582 >>64232585
>>64232556
The state of Russian desperation is hilarious. Pray tell how thick and heavy a Granit is with the required plate, soft armor, and then the 1" thick KAP behind all of that?
All that just to stop B-32 API three times. I mean, good lord, LTC makes plates like the 28570 that are 4.58lb and stop the same threat standalone.
Anonymous No.64232581 [Report] >>64252456
>tfw your shit's airsoft but they promised you a 6B45
Sheer delusion
Anonymous No.64232582 [Report] >>64232593 >>64248861
>>64232571
>If you expose my lies, you must be russian
>This will somehow make my lies true
You're pathetic. You waste your life by lying about ballistic plates online, how did that happen to you?
Anonymous No.64232585 [Report] >>64232597
>>64232571
>All that just to stop B-32 API three times
This is false by the way.
Anonymous No.64232593 [Report]
>>64232582
You haven't even posted a test of the Granit against M2AP at its actual reference velocity yet. I'm disappointed Ivan. Both in you and the aluminum oxide plates you're peddling that get mogged by $250 RMAs.
Anonymous No.64232597 [Report] >>64232602
>>64232585
Oh wait I'm sorry I meant zero times, because the plates in the field are cardboard. >>64232407
Anonymous No.64232602 [Report] >>64232615
>>64232597
>the plates in the field are cardboard
This is also false, by the way.
Anonymous No.64232615 [Report] >>64232633
>>64232602
You're right. Some of them are actually pot metal so thin and soft you can bend it with your hands!
https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1581708111500279808?
Anonymous No.64232621 [Report] >>64232643
>that is also false by the way
>your eyes are false by the way
>do not see the video
>my entire knowledge of armor is based on russian propaganda from eleven years ago when we were credible bad guy in hit western video gaem battlefield 3
Anonymous No.64232633 [Report] >>64232643 >>64248861 >>64252776
>>64232615
This, too, is false. I suppose you've earned yourself a meme status by now. Let's invent a name for you...

I got it. Sapitard.
Anonymous No.64232639 [Report] >>64232657
>>64231475
Wouldn't it be possible to at least stop some, with enough layers?
Anonymous No.64232643 [Report] >>64232646
>>64232621
>>64232633
fucking kek the Russian is schizo
Anonymous No.64232645 [Report] >>64232647 >>64232691
There were videos showing Russia would load 2-3 guys up with as much body armor as possible, give them duffle bags of ammo and send them running as far as they could. When they die they become loot boxes for the real assault. Nicknamed the camel tactic.
Anonymous No.64232646 [Report]
>>64232643
OK sapitard.
Anonymous No.64232647 [Report]
>>64232645
that too is false, Sapitard.
Anonymous No.64232657 [Report] >>64232669 >>64232691
>>64232639
It would be possible to stop 'some', but at this point the protection is inefficient as you carry so much shit and still get holes in your body. You want to prioritize hard plate coverage and only use soft armor to cover sections that cannot be covered by plates.
Anonymous No.64232669 [Report] >>64238591
>>64232657
I agree with this take. There is an obvious issue of both cost and weight. Realistically it will be very difficult to provide lightweight full body plate coverage without using B4C or a lighter future ceramic.
Shoulders + torso (front / back / sides) + abdominal + femorals is gonna run a pretty penny.
Anonymous No.64232691 [Report] >>64232738
>>64232645
It was Wagner who did this stuff in Bakhmut I think

>>64232657
Ok, but you're talking about close range shrapnel or fast shrapnel right? Because flak will protect from shrapnel just not all
Anonymous No.64232738 [Report]
>>64232691
Slow/Fast shrapnel separation is inappropriate. The real tangible separation is in the ordnance origin of it.

Soft armor that has enough layers to rate for .44 Magnum is just enough to stop naturally forming fragments from hand grenades, secondary fragments like stones kicked up by the detonation, and fragments of lighter mortar shells at stand-off distances.

This effectively limits its application to low-intensity conflicts where you might encounter enemy directly and he might throw grenades at you, and whose friends might roll up with 82mm mortar to harass you.

High intensity warfare features shit like drones carrying an RPG-7 warhead ramming you directly, 150~mm artillery pieces, rocket barrages, preformed shrapnel, thermobaric ammunition, tanks putting HE shells into bunkers.

It is completely normal to encounter fragments the size of a man's palm, travelling at ballistic speeds, and soft armor just can't stop it. A ceramic strike face, or panels made of ballistic steel that has high HRC, is much more likely to resist such a threat, at the cost of increased weight, reduced coverage and reduced comfort compared to soft vests
Anonymous No.64233643 [Report] >>64233675
>>64232291
>Those were donated and everyone ditched them for better shit the second they could. No individual was “buying” them.
Bruh, my friend sold a couple hundred of them to soldiers.
Anonymous No.64233675 [Report]
>>64233643
Most militaries, like the Ukrainian one, don't teach you any sort of Bodyarmor 101, so the many underequipped participants of the ATO bought total trash as long as it had 'body armor' on the label. Especially if it also said 'European body armor'.
Anonymous No.64234072 [Report]
Fuck it time to dump soft armor pics from GQ
Anonymous No.64234077 [Report]
Anonymous No.64234082 [Report]
Anonymous No.64234088 [Report]
Anonymous No.64234090 [Report]
Anonymous No.64234095 [Report]
Another of skinnyanon
Anonymous No.64234107 [Report]
another of not so skinny anon
Anonymous No.64234114 [Report] >>64234145
Anonymous No.64234121 [Report]
Anonymous No.64234133 [Report]
Anonymous No.64234145 [Report]
>>64234114
(Me) Just now noticing that the belarussian one on the right seems to have a full kevlar gorget and bevor. I think that's the first time I've seen something like that.
Anonymous No.64234842 [Report] >>64235125
>>64225194
First Spear LTO w/ 28595s, <10lb total weight, ~0.5".
>>64226838
By now there's probably more intact Fort systems suits in the hands of airsofters than Russian forces.
>>64227205
Me fr
>>64229684
Sounds like an evolution of the shelved IDAS system, meant for humvee gunners and sentries.
>>64232314
Wouldn't put too much credit into the VTP weight reduction, it was mostly due to increasing alowablw BFD, 44-> ~62mm.
Anonymous No.64235125 [Report]
>>64234842
Okay, somebody supplied you bad info on the LTC 28595s.
1. They are NOT Level IV plates. They're rated to 1x 7.62x54R B-32 API and at least two 7.62x39 BZ API. .30-06 M2AP creams them, see Buffman test.
2. The 28595 is also not 0.5" thick. Buffman measured his at 0.9" thick. The much weaker, M855A1 / BZ API LTC 28791 is however 0.6" thick.
They're still great plates, but overt by socom's definition and not Level IV. Buff's 28595 performed admirably against multiple M855A1. Alas, the new hotness is the LTC 28570.
>VTP
It's primarily three things.
1. Better-quality, albeit thinner PE backers.
2. Increased BFD limit.
3. Swimmer cut.
Jury is out on how well the higher BFD limit still controls behind armor blunt trauma. I think it's a mistake and they should have kept it at 44mm. The swimmer cut I can get for shoulder mobility.
Anonymous No.64237684 [Report]
bump because I think a IIIa gambeson and chaps should be standard kit for alice and molle chest and belt users
Anonymous No.64237743 [Report]
>>64224623 (OP)
Probably because they would die of heat stroke from may to early november
Anonymous No.64237950 [Report] >>64239153
>>64224623 (OP)
"Very light" is relative, but they DO make IIIA soft armor sets that will cover your entire torso, groin, thighs, biceps, etc. The thing is, ounces equal pounds and all that shit adds up, limits mobility, and traps alot of body heat, which isn't ideal if you're running from cover to cover to try to avoid being hit by a mortar in the first place. The current meta is basically an IOTV with Level IV plates and a IIIA cummerbund, plus a IIIA groin protector. Rarely do you see guys opting to weigh themselves down with anything more when a bit of extra soft armor won't stop a rifle round or keep your limb from being blown clean off by a direct hit. And tourniquets are good enough at preventing instadeath from simple frag wounds.
Anonymous No.64238591 [Report] >>64239153 >>64240135
>>64232669
I believe full body level 3 poly plates are easily possible and light enough. I'm planning on building a full suit that has that as level 4s are overkil, for the entire body really
Anonymous No.64239153 [Report] >>64240135
>>64238591
They are, but Level III poly gets utterly wrecked by steel-core threats like M855 / 7N10. This means in turn that preformed fragmentation ballistically comparable to M855 will perforate just as well. Anything tungsten will mulch the plate at significant standoff.
You'll be able to handle "basic" fragmentation ranges just fine but anything modern, that accounts for armor being a thing, will continue to be a problem.
>>64237950
I think "metas" are more area-specific. If we're talking CONUS you can easily skirt with a "III++" solution rated up to M80 / M855A1. Level IV won't get you anywhere against modern tungsten penetrators, so it's either go down to deal with street threats on an improved multi-hit basis or go up to something with more ass like an XSAPI, LTC 28601, Protech 2230, or Adept Colossus.
OCONUS the "socom" meta is a B-32 API optimized "IV-minus" like the LTC 28595 or preferably LTC 28570 for overt, if less-than-overt BZ API / M80 a la the LTC 28791 or VelSys PBZSA.
Ukraine is wonky because of the wide spread of equipment and ammunition. The overall "threat level" going off of what's in-theater, regardless of how common it is, is extremely high. There are rounds such as 7.62x54R 7N37, 7N37M, 7N51, 8.6x70 7N45 / PFO-BP / PFO-BS, etc on the Russian side alone that would be extremely lethal to XSAPI-level armor.
However, they aren't common (as tungsten APs usually aren't) and therefore you can skirt with a lesser protection rating. ESAPI REV. J will do fine if standoff against those threats can be conceded in favor of mobility.
Anonymous No.64240135 [Report] >>64240161 >>64240179 >>64240383
>>64239153
>>64238591
Level III UHMWPE is a way to go as REAL fragmentation protection.
They stop high speed frags within best weight.
https://www.contactleft.co.uk/highcom-striker-rch-rifle-combat-helmet-level-iii-full-cut-1.html
Anonymous No.64240161 [Report] >>64240176
>>64240135
The Highcom RCH was discussed thoroughly in the current /gq/ thread. There's an extreme discrepancy between Highcom's actual spec sheet and the much higher stopped threat velocities advertised by Highcom's vendors. See >>64206605. This helmet is likely more in line with an ECH and is thus not really "III+."
Regardless, that helmet is no good against M855 and accordingly cannot help you against hardened steel fragmentation comparable in mass / energy to M855. Helmets need a ceramic applique plate to handle M855.
Anonymous No.64240176 [Report] >>64240186
>>64240161
>Regardless, that helmet is no good against M855 and accordingly cannot help you against hardened steel fragmentation comparable in mass / energy to M855.
See V50s vs frag imitators.
Bullets with sharp truncated perpetrator nose like M855 or 7N10 are different from frags.
Anonymous No.64240179 [Report] >>64240206
>>64240135
I've got no dog in this fight but civilians in the USA actually have a lot of experience with armor and defeating it. Level III ceramic would be defeated fairly easily on the battlefield but would protect better than soft armor (defeated 100% of the time by .22 TCM fro ma 5 inch barrel at 10 yards). Some of your frag threats could easily be flying faster than 2,050 fps (limit of soft armor protection), and given the previous statement, this means level IV ceramic is basically the gold standard for personal armor for mass production, but believe it or not Americans have easily defeated that as well with homemade and military ammo, even with a 16" barrel 5.56x45. But in general, lightweight level IV ceramic (~12lbs for front and back plates) is the best for vitals, and if you're worried about fringes and limbs level II soft armor would be light and protect against up to 2,000 fps frags.
Anonymous No.64240186 [Report] >>64240197
>>64240176
The largest fragmentation on the chart is 44gr and only going 1,750ft/s, and the helmet can only stop that half the time.
Preformed hardened steel fragmentation will be larger, faster, and ballistically moroe comparable to M855. To say nothing of tungsten frag.
Anonymous No.64240197 [Report] >>64240216
>>64240186
See Level III UHMWPE can stop VOG-17 frags close range,
>>64230078
For comparison Kevlar Interceptor vest (or PASGT frag vest) cant.
Anonymous No.64240206 [Report] >>64240236
>>64240179
Case can easily be made that a robust III++ like the LTC 19513 is preferable to IV, due to better multi hit, permissible spacing, and the rarity of threats higher than M855A1. See >>64217657.
The Hesco 4601 however fulfills both III and IV requirements, is .06 NIJ certified, and accordingly the best trustworthy certified plate for high level protection. No dice against M993, but again, rarity of threats.
Anonymous No.64240216 [Report] >>64240249
>>64240197
I'm talking more artillery shells and drone-carried munitions, not 30mm grenades.
Anonymous No.64240236 [Report] >>64240250
>>64240206
The issue in the USA is that almost every other Cletus has m193 and retro 20" ARs.
Anonymous No.64240249 [Report] >>64240271
>>64240216
>drone-carried munitions, not 30mm grenades.
Drones literally drop 30mm VOG-17 grenades or similar.

Artillery shells are unironically easier to defend against because statically they land at range most of their hits are slow frags. Its not drone drops and FPV drones with 1-3 meters CEP.
Anonymous No.64240250 [Report] >>64240299
>>64240236
M193 out of a 20" only reliably defeats most steel plates. It is not able to defeat well made PE or ceramic Level III.
Steel is weak to velocity, PE is weak to steel penetrators. Ceramics need a combination of factors.
Anonymous No.64240271 [Report] >>64240383
>>64240249
And yet the issue of preformed fragmentation remains unaddressed. Statistically laser-guided shells will resolve the accuracy issue. Preformed tungsten fragmentation have the sectional density to pierce PE even at low velocities.
Buffman tested a Level III PE plate and it lost to 9x19mm DM91, tungsten core, out of an SMG. Velocity was fairly slow too.
Additionally, we should be talking about v0 instead of v50 in terms of body armor.
Anonymous No.64240299 [Report] >>64240330 >>64240383
>>64240250
>PE is weak to steel penetrators.
To sharp truncated steel penetrators.
7N6 or fragments simulation projectiles are stopped by PE.
Anonymous No.64240330 [Report]
>>64240299
7N6 has since been supplanted by 7N6M and FSPs are archaic. Level III PE alone is not the way to go. You need a ceramic applique or strike face.
Anonymous No.64240360 [Report]
>>64224623 (OP)
I was thinking about this before but then started to wonder would soft armor even be able to stop small shrapnel that is going at crazy speeds. You can see it go through plates sometimes
Anonymous No.64240383 [Report] >>64240410
>>64240271
>And yet the issue of preformed fragmentation remains unaddressed.
See RCC and FSP performance >>64240299 >>64240135


>Preformed tungsten fragmentation have the sectional density to pierce PE even at low velocities.
there is no public ballistc data on tungsten spheres vs Level III UHMWPE.
But Russians had estimation that versus CRISAT armor (6B2 soviets vest) 3mm 0.2 grams tungsten ball has v50 of 910m/s, 17 grain (1.1 grams) steel FSP is 790 m/s. Aka Level III UHMWPE has good chance to have V50 vs such tungsten PFF at excess of 1300-1500 m/s. (there can be scale effects, tungsten sphere is smaller than FSP but UHMWPE is non woven fabric so unlikely there are large scale effets )

3mm 0.2 grams tungsten ball is "standard" size for preformed fragments in NATO ammunition and is used in HIMARS AW missiles and 155mm PFF shells. And it is understandable they have right side to reliably defeat PASGT body armor with 610 m/s V50 vs 17 grain steel FSP and Russian Ratnik body armor and helmets that have about the same V50s.
Anonymous No.64240410 [Report] >>64240469
>>64240383
The Highcom helmet numbers are questionable as per an earlier post.
Russian estimates are also suspect, because Russian. See earlier posts in this thread, their armor industry is in shambles and they lack mastery of basic concepts. Even their 6B45 type granits are roughly double the thickness of ESAPIs with the required backing components.
We're missing the forest for the trees here. Even if what you're saying is true, that's not addressing current and future emerging threats that expensive solutions being discussed in the thread should actually address.
That inherently means M855-sized preformed fragmentation, which has been my contention this entire time.
Also going off that DM91 test, no, future tungsten PFF will easily defeat Level III PE. You aren't addressing how weak to hardened penetrators PE actually is.
Anonymous No.64240469 [Report] >>64240500
>>64240410
Bullets performance has weak relationship with frags perfroamnce. Bullets are stabilized frags are not. YOu cant have such pointed penetrator in frags, because they dont fly nose forward.
Frags are balls or worse shape and they have performance simulated by RCC and FSP shape.
Of course you can make very heavy frags but this scales weight of the ammunition mass and size.

Again you missing the point. Such relatively light warhead as VOG-17 defeats "standard Kevlar armor" when used in drone drop scenario. But not Level III UHMWPE. You can make much more powerful warhead but at the cost of massive increase of ammunition mass and size. First of all 44 grain fragment is 8 times heavier than 6 grains. 280 grams vs 2200 grams warhead.
Anonymous No.64240500 [Report] >>64240690
>>64240469
>But not Level III UHMWPE
Which gets trashed by 9x19mm tungsten-core as previously discussed and loses to basic forty-cent 5.56 like M855.
I agree with your concerns about projectile geometry (DM91's geometry still ain't great here either), but fact of the matter is that throwing Level III PE at everything is a massive cost jump, an added bulk / weight / heatcat jump, and fails to defeat threats that body armor should still be accounting for - as well as future fragmentation threats should they resolve the geometry issues, such as say RUAG's "pearl" technology. In other words, it's a lot of money for a half measure. That Highcom helmet is $2,400 a pop and going off Highcom's actual spec sheet is not demonstrably Level III under 0101.06.
No half measures. Throw a ceramic applique good for M855 / 7N10 on the not-Level III helmet and we're in business.
Anonymous No.64240690 [Report] >>64240704
>>64240500
Frags are nothing close to these bullets.
Anonymous No.64240704 [Report]
>>64240690
But they can go significantly faster.
Anonymous No.64241894 [Report]
>>64230078
Thanks for the clarification about the Fort suit. I didn't look very hard but the specs weren't obvious.
Anonymous No.64244205 [Report]
>>64224623 (OP)
I'd rather have partial body hard armor.
Anonymous No.64248861 [Report]
>>64232582
>>64232633
You sound angry, desperate and insecure so I assume everything you have claimed in this thread is false.
Anonymous No.64252456 [Report]
>>64232581
Do the russians still issue airsoft gear in the year of our lord 2025?
Anonymous No.64252634 [Report]
>>64224623 (OP)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApdlThgxN6U
he made a newer version called the "U series" or something but the video of it got taken down years ago.
Anonymous No.64252676 [Report]
>>64226702
>everyone
Who is everyone?
Larpers? Cops?
Anonymous No.64252727 [Report]
>>64229462
Saint gobain... the company that makes like food grade gypsum and construction plaster?
Anonymous No.64252776 [Report]
>>64232633
Kek gopnik faggot you got humiliated