Thread 64230598

Why are tank losses so high in the ukraine/russia war?

>>64230598 (OP)
slavs

>>64230598 (OP)
they use em

>>64230600
/thread

>nearly static frontlines
>both sides have weapons to finish any abandoned tank and any recovery vehicle
Even during WWII the norm was firing at disabled tanks until they ended like that pic or worse because people was recovering "destroyed" (disabled) AFV to repair them and reuse them for the next attack.

>>64230607
/thread

>>64230628
/thread

>>64230598 (OP)
Russia has (or had) the largest fleet of tanks in the world because of their inheritance from the USSR. They spent about 40 years building as many shitty tanks as they could and then after the USSR collapsed, Russia tried to get use out of them in Ukraine. But it was already too late and the passage of time and advances in drone and ATGM technology made all those decades of production worthless.

>>64230774
How much protectiom does a tank need these days to survive atgm's and drones?

>>64230774
/thread

they were used without support

>>64230966
/thread

Lack of combined arms to keep them protected

>>64230608
/thread

>>64230992
fpbp

>>64230804
1M$ worth of hard and soft kill systems to fend off 6 fiber optic Ali Baba drones with RPG warheads. Trophy but full 3D 360º

>>64231018
>Trophy
Works against slow shit?

>>64230598 (OP)
>Modern ATGMs
>Drones with AT weapons
Tanks without APS and anti-drone weaponry are obsolete, simple as. Doesn't even matter how good your tactics or your support are.

>>64231030
>Tanks without APS and anti-drone weaponry are obsolete, simple as
This and the fact more armor = more weight = less speed. Being a sitting duck is death no mater how armored the duck is.

>>64231028
no idea, but if it can work against Malyutkinos it can work against drones. At least the concept is there, the enjeetneers will simply have to give it tighter thresholds to fend off drones

>>64231051
I'm just thinking that trophy system is already dangerous for guys to be around and having it go off when slow things are near it would make me kinda spooked

>>64230774
Had. They had around 7000 tanks total before invasion - largest number in the world. Now 2700 tanks max - less then usa, china, india.

>>64230598 (OP)
High intensity warfare with modern AT weapons, ISR and artillery on both sides.
Its also not just tank losses, its everything losses. Turns out shit gets destroyed on a massive scale in conventional war.

>>64231041
Top attack weapons have severely degraded the value of armor as a concept itself.

>>64231068
Combined arms with tanks doesn't work like that anymore. You don't have to be within earshot to communicate with you allies, and tanks move much more quickly and have better situational awareness.

>>64231068
Oh sorry I completely misunderstood you, yeah it will be a bitch to program it. Specifity and sensitivity and all that. Target discrimation is probably the hardest part of this equation, right alonside the magazine depth problem for existing systems.

>>64230598 (OP)
One side is (at least was) brutally outnumbered in everything leading to high tank loses. Other is constantly pushing into minefields and drone infested areas.

>>64231108
Yeah and things never go bad and always work out just like in training huh?

>>64231169
>A 15 million dollar tank
>A couple conscripts with 3 months training
Losses have to be accepted in war.

>>64231018
>>64231030
Tank APS doesn't need to kill FPV drones, tanks are immune to them if the hatches are closed. They just need to worry about the huge drones dumping AT mines or 155s on them from above, and those are far more difficult and more expensive to make, and far slower and easier to detect and destroy. SHORAD is the answer here, not APS.

>>64231219
Yeah, I also think drone defense and ATGM defense will be separate systems.
>Tank APS doesn't need to kill FPV drones, tanks are immune to them if the hatches are closed
Even a small charge can still damage optics and weapons if aimed well.

>>64231285
Maybe someone will worry about it when it happens more than once.

>>64231180
That handful of dead conscripts wind up being extremely expensive for a country in the long run. It may be cheap to ass rape a peasant until they become a soldier, but you have to add on the cost of making the peasant.

>>64231285
>Even a small charge can still damage optics and weapons if aimed well.

Yeah and if you shot a pistol through a driver's slit in WW2 you could do some damage. Surprisingly tho pistols weren't consider anti-tank weapons.

>>64231356
Start worrying now. Chinese small drones (or american or european ones for that matter) won't be civilian drones with grenades slavrigged onto them.

>>64231386
>Chinese small drones
May we see them?

>>64231401
If you think the chinese are going to show their cutting edge drones to you, you are dumber than you have any right to be.

>>64230600
>>64231000
checked.
and
/thread

>>64230598 (OP)
because we have so many anti armor weapons nowadays that modern tanks and other armoured vehicles simply cant take that kind of damage
even before fpv drones things like javelins and nlaws were extremly dangerous to tanks
shaped charge weapons pretty much solved the tank problen

>>64231403
I can't visit this board without seeing China's most implessive 7th gen fighters 10 times a day, why are they hiding their $500 temu drones?

>>64230804
i think we might see some new laser tech that might destroy drones before they hit, unless some genius figures out new active protection or new type of armor that is impervious to shaped charge weapons, tanks will remain vulnerable

>>64231409
Hiding a whole fucking plane is impossible, especially when the layout is unlike anything they've had previously. Mind you, they're not sharing jack shit about those planes, it's all intelligence guesswork. Hiding a drone is much easier. I have no doubt china (and american and european companies) are working at exactly the kind of drone I envision - small, with a warhead suitable to disabling or impairing tanks (and other vehicles or kinds of equipment) and the AI to do it without a noisy and delayed man in the loop at least in the final stages. Ukraine has no need for such drones because they have ten different ways to deal with inferior russian tanks anyway.

I wonder how APS would deal with hypersonic AT missiles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Kinetic_Energy_Missile

>>64231455
Oh look the Serb cuck has awoken

>>64230598 (OP)
No air superiority

>>64230598 (OP)
>proliferation of man portable anti-tank weapons from rockets to drones
>drone spotted artillery
>all the mines
Tanks still have a use but the days of entire armored divisions duking it out are over.

>>64231386
No, they will be slavrigged. You don't need to to be some overbuilt MIC thing when you're trying to deliver high explosives on targets and don't need it to come home.

>>64230598 (OP)
Because Ukraine is taking offense at Russian tanks being on their soil.

>serbs
no other nation on earth manages to trigger pure physical disgust just by presenting themselves to the world like serbs do. it's something i can’t even explain. there are filthier nations out there, yet the sheer, irrational disgust serbs trigger stands above all

>>64231618
silence, albaboon

>>64230804
Too much.

Explosives will always beat out armor. The limitation is always in getting the explosives on target. A tank's niche has been in its ability to tank common battlefield fire (small arms up to light autocannons) while being small and maneuverable enough to not be a sitting duck to larger systems, while having the firepower to hit anti-tank guns just as well as their ability to hit the tank. They're not an "I win" button but they've historically been a problem.
RPGs are short-ranged. ATGMs still require you to be within the tank's return fire range and, while cheaper than a tank, they're still expensive enough and bulky enough that they can't be expected to be everywhere in quantity.
A drone gives you more range than an RPG while being cheaper than a ATGM.

>>64231658
>ATGMs still require you to be within the tank's return fire range and, while cheaper than a tank, they're still expensive enough and bulky enough that they can't be expected to be everywhere in quantity.
Modern ATGMs easily reach the range of drones. We just don't see such ATGMs used in ukraine because development cycles are slower and they frankly don't have the need when a javelin does the job just fine.

>>64231651
you’d probably keel over from a stroke if you found out where i’m actually from, lol. you serbniggers always faint when someone from russia calls you a serbnigger. take a hint retard: nobody likes sycophants, especially the ones that openly admit they’re lower class just to win approval. turks should’ve assimilated you into their khalifat, you look like them anyway lmao

>>64231478
>I have no doubt china (and american and european companies) are working at exactly the kind of drone I envision
It's called Switchblade 600, it predates the Ukraine war and it's not a secret. May we see the implessive temu copies?

>>64230598 (OP)
>Why are tank losses so high in the ukraine/russia war?

Generally due to them getting killed. This war is not a modern war, it's more an Iran v. Iraq style scuffle with a few innovations and a pile of old shit.

>>64231681
>If the chinese won't show it to us, it doesn't exist and we need not worry about it
Retard.

Russian tank armor schemes are very primitive and give poor protection against shaped charges. They rely on heavy ERA to protect against long rods, but most of the threat on the battlefield consists of shaped charges. And them having piss poor ammo stowage schemes doesnt help either.

>>64231716
Unironically yes. The chinks show off everything that looks like it might plausibly be useful. If they haven't shown off a switchblade clone it's because they don't have a switchblade clone.

>>64230598 (OP)
Its because Russian tanks are shit
per Oryx, there have been around 100 western tanks visually confirmed lost compared to more than 5000 Russian designed tanks

>it's not real because I didn't see it, plwease posto video
If that allows you to sleep then it's ok.

Lack of combined arms operations. They send out tanks by themselves which instantly makes them targets for artillery and drones. They still seem to think they're a mobile fortress that can operate on their own. They do the same shit with IFVs too.

>>64231993
>They still seem to think they're a mobile fortress that can operate on their own
No, they know any plane/heli that tries and provide support will die immediately.

>>64231716
>face saving culture that goes so far as to brag about plywood mockups that are copies of American drone designs from 20 years ago in it's big parade
>Ohhhh rook at our new scary spicy tiger penis face melter paper maché much fortune and happiness NLAW knockoff! Why you make fun of it, peasant face replacable when tube rupture!
>Oh oh oh rook! ROOK! Hyper plasma spinning keyhole shooting infantry rifle for making funny shaped holes in paper! Why you make fun of it, it must be rubber bullets yeah that's why (despite everyone else who uses training rounds making them work just fucking fine).
Do I need to keep going? If you insects have something you're waving it around like your tiny dicks, and we laugh at the knockoff shit just as hard until you realize you're embarrasing yourself, pull your pants up, and fuck off.

>>64231917
they aren't going to change it, the focus was always cheap tanks, crews are exependable in their eyes, their tanks don't even have good reverse.

>>64230598 (OP)
idk, maybe because Russia sends in like 5 tanks without air support, zero troop support and the crews are all new and poorly trained into a fucking mine field, filled with Nato Artillary shooting at them, while FPV dones are zooming everywhere?

also, dubz

>>64231219
>tanks are immune to them if the hatches are closed
Even against FPV armed with RPG that hits behind?

>>64235276
Feel free to post a video of an FPV drone destroying an operational MBT with the hatches closed.

>>64235296
>FPV drones dont kill takes if their hatch is closed.

Look at this fucking retard right here!

Theres HUNDREDS of videos to say thats wrong stupid newfag

>>64235296
I swear I've seen vids of drones chasing and disabling moving tanks, maybe I remembered wrong.

>>64235314
So post one.

>inb4 a video of a not-FPV drone dropping an AT mine on a tank, or a video of the 500th FPV drone hitting the exact same spot on a disabled tank to blow it up

>>64235296
Will you respond if we do, or will you just run away?

>>64235338
I guess he ran away.
(Post some to refresh my memory pls)

>>64230598 (OP)
>underestimation of the power of shoulder-launched ATGM's
>heavily mechanized force which relies on the existence of the tank to secure itself rather than through combined arms
>surprisingly well-ordered ambushes early into the war crippling experienced tanker corps
>tanks facing threats that they were never designed to defend from
outdated tanks were pushed into service against weapons much cheaper and much more modern than they are, without the required defenses or modernization to protect them. i assume the calculus was that they would absorb the losses without issue and win anyways, so losing some tanks would just let them later justify or lionize things, but since those initial days the effects of crippling their own tanker corps has reared it's ugly head every time. not that the ukes have it any better, their tanks are just as unprepared for modern AT weapons, and the cold-war hand-me-downs aren't either, their only saving grace is because they know they don't have as many, they're much more conservative and expend a lot of effort to protect them.

>>64235296
low hanging fruit since i know the T-90 barely counts as operational but it is an MBT... i think

>>64235872
>where turret
>turret bits begin landing
nice

>>64230598 (OP)
the kremlin ad putin are shit commanders and ziggers are bad at war and Ukranians are good at it and fighting for their nation and civilians they are Europeans and Europeans are the masters of war and always have been, thus world domination ww1 and ww2

For a non European nation to go to war solo with a European nation is suicide as history has always demonstrated repeatedly. Thestuedist thing humankind has doen is encourage European rearmament and waken a sleeping giant. The Americans are kind and gentle compared to Europeans, see Ukraine and WW1 and WW2. Litreally every major military innovation and tactic originates in Euroepan warfare. Before them mankind was fighting with sharpened metal daggers and sharpened metal daggers on sticks
>Muh China
Look what happened when China tried fighting Europeans. Leave them alone, let them be peaceful and tree hugging or die. Do uou wnat them occupying teh global south and installing toilets and railways everywhere again while you make them tea and iced drinks?

>>64235882
the camera drone being so clearly surprised that the tank just fucking evaporated is just such a nice touch too. the T-90's in particular seem like death traps, not sure if that's just cause more potent arms are selected for use against them or if there's some serious flaws in the design against drones. i lean towards the latter.

>>64235938
It was a late soviet/early rf design, so its probably just shit based on that tbqh

Why was >>64235296 deleted? The fuck is wrong with jannies?

>>64236169
Maybe he deleted it himself as the proofs he demanded started to arrive.

>>64230598 (OP)
Nigger it is rissian/ukrainian war. The aggressor is spelled first.

>>64236169
couple other threads just lost 50+ posts. think this one was just collateral. this one technically has an open hatch but it wasn't hit in the hatch so don't think it quite counts

>>64236219
Nope, I was the poster and I admit I had no idea Russian tanks were so shoddily built. After seeing a few videos of Abrams and Merkavas shrugging off RPG-7s, I assumed that it was universal.

>>64236258
Apparently not, since the janny deleted my post again. No clue why since I wasn't even given a warning and he's literally leaving up entire threads about gay sex that have nothing to do with weapons.

>>64236299
Resident loon went apeshit today, probably a bit of collateral

>>64236299
>Abrams and Merkavas shrugging off RPG-7s
Where though? At the front, where the armor is thickest? Or on weak spots on the top and back?

>>64235336

and another one for you

>>64230598 (OP)
Tanks have been obsolete for roughly 60 years. Cheap spam ordnance and mines. Now you have significantly more mobile cheap drone spam. Does not matter if you're in a Abrams or a Leopard II or an MRAP. It's getting disabled with casualties in ukraine. 90% of all vehicles that operate the front get disabled with casualties within 6 months.

>>64236351
>attrition happens
Yes
>attrition happens at a rate favoring western kit
Yes

>>64230598 (OP)
Slavs, retarded "CHAAARGE URAAAA" techniques, suprise from both sides of having to fight actual other tanks, inability to have anti-drone tech, and general retardation

>>64230598 (OP)
USSR made monkey model T tanks for their conscripts. The trend continues to this day.

1. Russian tanks are fine. The War has changed: DRONES.

DRONES:
- stupidly cheap even compared to infantry AT.
- doesn't require close engagement unlike infantry AT.
- Even AirSupport is too expensive to maintain 24/7 cover.

>>64236299
it's basically this thing causing all the problems, and that the 'extra' storage for ammo is up in the turret. and because this thing fails when poorly maintained, crews often keep some ammo in reserve to manually load. you sit right on top of it, and if the propellant is cheaply packaged or aged, it goes off with a sufficient spark or pressure. a HEAT round of any kind like this means death if it gets any penetration near them, and from these slightly upward angles? there's not nearly enough armor. the chechens got away with using outdated RPG's from rooftops, FPV's just mean you get to do it without a nearby rooftop.

someone did some napkin math a while back that suggested that even a non-penetration that causes spalling could set off the charges they use, as some have combustible casings(couldn't find the picture of the TNT spaghetti they use but some other anon probably has it)

>>64236358
No. All land vehicles are literally disabled with casualties within 6 months of operating the front. Western and Russian. The ukrainians have been conducting medevacs on foot for multiple km for at least 2 years now. You don't see it advertised but there are credible reports ukraine has lost at least 27 abrams, it first lost 5 in a single engagement and the US government asked ukraine to pull them from the front. It did for a while but obviously put them back on the front and lost them. At least 200 mraps were destroyed with casualties in ukraine.

>>64235276
yes anon, the RPG 7 is that shit

>>64236466
That>>64235872 looks like an RPG to me.

>>64236382
Drones are not an effective method for taking out tanks.
>low impact velocity and limited payload, so little armor penetration
>require manual flying and targeting by an operator for the whole duration of the flight
>can easily be jammed or destroyed

Modern AT launchers like Javelin or TOW are way more effective. Not counting guided missiles and bombs.

>>64236492
>impact velocity
>so little armour penetration
KYS imbecile.

>>64236499
It's OK to be retarded anon.

>>64236492
Over half of all vehicles destroyed or disabled in ukraine have been disabled or destroyed by drones. Drones out range AT launchers by multiple km and do not expose the soldiers location during operation.

>>64236492
>low impact velocity
The copper jet from HEAT rounds impact the armor at mach 20 buddy.

>>64236511
If you think that an impact velocity of 200 m/s (to give a number) will change a lot the result of a metal jet moving at 8 km/s ±1 km/s then you're a fucking retard.
The most important thing for a SC to perform optimally are standoff and correct jet formation.
>Even HEAT-FS moving at 1 km/s generally will perform worse than a missile of the same caliber because there's a waste of useful diameter to resist the initial acceleration and a limit of practical standoff.

>>64235872
How does a FPV drone hold that much explosives to take out a tank?

>>64236570
The fun part about tanks is that they come pre-packed with explosives for you, you just gotta reach through the armor to them.

>>64230804
It needs active protection covering all of the angels anything can approach it and at least decent armour up front where the majority of kinetic projectiles from other tanks are incoming

>>64236570
Most FPVs have a RPG-7 warhead which is a single-stage HEAT based on 1-2 pounds of HE. The big explosions you see are the result of the HEAT jet penetrating at an angle between the engine and rear of the turret, which is thin armor of just 20mm to 50mm, to set off the ammo storage underneath the turret, which is about 20 shells with lots of gunpowder and explosives.

>>64231403
Their propaganda machine and face saving mentality will not only absolutely show everything they got but also grossly exaggerate its stated performance. Including inventing shit they actually dont have.

Have you learned absolutely nothing from this war watching how the asiatic mindset, like vatniks, behave

>>64236655
You've fallen for the same flaw in the opposite direction. You are incapable of taking the enemy seriously.

>>64231962
Ukraine also has a substantial reserve of soviet tanks in usage

>>64235938
T-90 is a modernized t-72 variant they renamed for marketing and propaganda purposes

>>64236351
And in ww2 the average expected lifespan of a tank was two weeks in combat operations. So what?

>>64236382
The direct attack drones are merely a bonus and at their peak right now because of lack of effective cheap APS.

The real breakthrough of drones is the unsexy stuff of tactical and operational awareness. No unexpected armour formation can get the jump on anyone because they will be immediately spotted within x km from the front and have artillery fire missions summoned on them with pinpoint accuracy

>>64236717
Your 6 million USD tank dies at the same pace as the $500k tank. Both with casualties.

>>64236661
losing the entire So yviet tank reserve to your poorer, weaker next door neighbor who only got HATO's couch change and old scraps tends to make you look like a joke to others, yeah)))

>>64230598 (OP)
Dense AT environment and fuck all cover.

>>64236382
>russian tanks are fine
Not really, they’re kinda subpar
>war had changed
No, this war just has specific conditions that make drone recon stop everything like a wall, and russians do not have the tech or training to circumvent this, neither do the ukranians.

>>64236395
In a war where both sides were already at a stalemate and don’t have airforces? say it aint so?
Droneniggers who insist tanks are obsolete are dumb lol

>>64236674
I included those in the figure given
Of the ~5000 russian designed tanks destroyed, about ~1000 were Ukrainian

>>64231219
>tanks are immune to them if the hatches are closed.

No.

>>64236395
the numbers do not back your assertion
Russian designed tanks are lost at a rate 60 times higher than that of their western counterparts, despite the Ukrainians preferring to use their western tanks whenever they can

>>64238361
my bad, russian made tanks are lost at a rate 50 times higher than western tanks, not 60 times higher

>>64230598 (OP)
1) in a revival of Operation Cyclone the US and Europe flooded Ukraine with ATGMs
2) Russian armored forces walked into this because of poor command, poor leadership, poor training, poor combined arms, lack of air superiority, decades old military equipment left unupgraded

>>64230628
towards the end the Germans had some success burying mobility killed tanks in city intersections as static defensive positions

>>64231658
its not even explosives
a sabot is not an explosive
an explosively formed penetrator is not an explosive merely formed by one

>>64236466
Any PG-7 warhead out there even the obsolescent early versions will go through the top of literally any tank ever made, in the history of the fucking planet, with the ONLY exception being if they hit ERA, and even that is a big maybe.

>>64238331
>don’t have airforces

Because dirt cheep AD missiles easily shoot down expensive aircraft, just as dirt cheep drones and AT missiles are wrecking expensive tanks.

>>64238414
>DEAD occurs
>PGMS exist so no low-level bombing
>MANPADS now out of range
What now?

>>64235872
That's not a T-90, that's a T-80BVM