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Thread 64238480

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Anonymous No.64238480 >>64238829 >>64238842 >>64240094 >>64259307 >>64259832
Battleship thread
Two thousand men, and fifty thousand tonnes of steel
Set the course for the Atlantic with the allies on their heel
Firepower, firefight
Battlestations, keep the targets steady in sight

>>>/wsg/5965794
Anonymous No.64238496 >>64238590 >>64238817 >>64239681 >>64242165 >>64242698 >>64242709 >>64244496 >>64266474
Bismarck was scuttled, not sunk
Anonymous No.64238590 >>64238817
>>64238496
Scuttled by 16inch naval gunfire :^)
Anonymous No.64238598
Anonymous No.64238603 >>64243466
If you've never been on a museum ship you owe yourself a trip, the scale of those things is crazy.
Anonymous No.64238817 >>64259785 >>64259921
>>64238496
Mission killed by one swordfish.
>>64238590
And Rodney's torpedoes.
Anonymous No.64238829 >>64242796
>>64238480 (OP)
Fugg now I wanna play sea power but I have to work all day :(
Anonymous No.64238842 >>64241400
>>64238480 (OP)
Not sure which fate is worse, being the subject of a sabaton song and mindless retarded obsession. Or getting gaijin'd.
Anonymous No.64239681 >>64262028
>>64238496
there are several interviews with survivors who explain in detail how they were ordered to and did the opening of the flood valves.
Anonymous No.64240069 >>64240083
>JFK died of blood loss
Anonymous No.64240083 >>64247592
>>64240069
No it was cardiac arrest.
Anonymous No.64240094 >>64240150 >>64243082
>>64238480 (OP)
My only real association with Bismarck was a period playing World of Warships as a Fletcher (love, life, etc). There was a weekend where Bismarck went on sale, so there were a bunch of idiots in Bismarcks who never played high-tier games before rolling around in straight lines at constant speeds, perpetually confused why they kept being spotted when behind islands (a state usually ended by a wall of torpedoes from suspiciously Fletcher-shaped patches of open ocean). The average skill on display felt very appropriate for Bismarck fanboys.
Anonymous No.64240150 >>64240336
>>64240094
Bismarck is a tech tree ship, you meant Tirpitz.
Anonymous No.64240336 >>64240399
>>64240150
It's been yonks, so I might be misremembering the sale bit. I do distinctly recall a sudden increase in Bismarck count/decrease in average Bismarck skill consistent with something like a sale, though.
Anonymous No.64240399
>>64240336
I know that some people still suck after playing for years, but getting Bismarck from tech tree requires some games played prior, while Tirpitz's only requirement is to pay money. Grinding up to tier 8 usually make people averse to torpedoes and Bismarck have hydro to detect them earlier. Tirpitz doesn't have it but torpedo launchers instead, so they tend to misplay, like charging in like destroyers with the intent of launching torps.
Anonymous No.64241400
>>64238842
>getting gaijin'd
what about getting wargaming'd?
Anonymous No.64242165 >>64243865
>>64238496
>we scuttled Bismarck as a gesture of goodwill
Anonymous No.64242223
With so many senior officers killed, it must have been difficult to even communicate the order to abandon ship.
Anonymous No.64242616
Anonymous No.64242698
>>64238496
>Y-you can't fire me because I quit!
Anonymous No.64242709
>>64238496
Scuttled while sinking.
Anonymous No.64242796 >>64244248 >>64244460
>>64238829
Just play CMO.
It's better and may even pass as a work related spreadsheet for a second.
Anonymous No.64243082
>>64240094
My association with Bismarck was anytime one appeared 6km away and opened up with like 300 perfectly accurate secondary battery guns, simultaneously breaking every part of my nip cruiser that could break and lighting me on fire in 3 places, and then torpedoing me when I tried to make a suicidal torpedo run. Also the Bismarck thing was probably a ship rental event, you can access those even if you just started playing.
Anonymous No.64243354 >>64243378
Anonymous No.64243378
>>64243354
kino
Anonymous No.64243466 >>64243514 >>64259448 >>64259911 >>64272599
>>64238603
Aussie here, I want to do a tour of the US at some point in the next couple of years, any recommendations for museums? I want to see New Jersey obviously, but I haven't done much research into other places yet.
Anonymous No.64243495
Anonymous No.64243514 >>64243859
>>64243466
that depends on where in America you want to visit
Anonymous No.64243859 >>64248898
>>64243514
I'd basically be going there to see war, computing, and aerospace museums, as well as finding a range where they let you shoot machine guns and full auto rifles/SMGs. I'd also be meeting my future sister-in-law's family in northern Commiefornia, might stop by to visit my aunt and uncle in Iowa.
Anonymous No.64243865
>>64242165
>we'll call it a draw
Anonymous No.64244217 >>64244238 >>64248860
1922 was the second worst year of the decade.
Anonymous No.64244238 >>64252438 >>64253529
>>64244217
>we could be looking at several mile long B's by now
:( pain
Anonymous No.64244248
>>64242796
>$79.99
You wot m8
Anonymous No.64244460
>>64242796
>may even pass as a work related spreadsheet for a second
your boss calls you in
I'm very disappointed in you anon
you were playing vidya on company time
I understand, I love modern war too
I might have understood if you were playing CMANO
but EVE Online? seriously?!
>tfw you really were working on the quarterly report
Anonymous No.64244496
>>64238496
>not sunk
ahh yes the important distinction of whether or not the crew of the Bismarck detonated some explosives after is was clear the ship was lost
Anonymous No.64247538 >>64247570 >>64247574 >>64259944 >>64261339 >>64261364
Where the FUCK is my 3 hour long, historically accurate, massive set-piece Battle of Jutland movie?
Anonymous No.64247570 >>64259938 >>64261339
>>64247538
Best I can do is a 3 hour narration with randos on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhQow54xWFI
Anonymous No.64247574 >>64247771 >>64259943
>>64247538
It'd just be a three hours of people wondering why Beatty wasn't shot for treason?
Anonymous No.64247592 >>64247699
>>64240083
It was a brain hemorrhage
Anonymous No.64247699
>>64247592
Too soon, ghoul.
Anonymous No.64247771 >>64259944
>>64247574
That would be one of the core pieces of the movie. Imagine how infuriating it would be to see a couple of battlecruisers violently explode with thousands of lives on board, then the camera to pans to Beatty delivering his infamous "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today." line.
Anonymous No.64247796 >>64248255
The climax scene of the battle between battlecruisers comes too soon in this movie!
Anonymous No.64248255
>>64247796
I think it would play out in a similar way to Das Boot, the big fights are in the middle act but after that you get the harrowing chase, the tense night action, Seydlitz limping back with barely more freeboard than a monitor, and the hero's welcome back to port, followed up with the sobering realisation in high command as both sides learn that they haven't achieved their goals.
Anonymous No.64248860 >>64254838
>>64244217
Ah, but what about the hole left by the Helsinki-Seoul hyper naval treaty?
Anonymous No.64248898
>>64243859
>in northern Commiefornia
USS Hornet (CV-12) is pretty fucking great, can just spend a whole day there walking the ship on your own and chilling.
Downside: you're right on the cancer AIDS axis of SF and Oakland.
Upside: the bay area undesirables typically don't venture there.
Anonymous No.64252438 >>64252584
>>64244238
It was a blessing that John Fisher died 2 years before the WNT, because surely it would otherwise have killed him.
Anonymous No.64252584
>>64252438
Bismarks lucky shot was guided by the vengeful ghost of JF over Britain accepting the treaties
BB No.64253529 >>64253807 >>64254159 >>64254552
>>64244238
How's a 2000 ft design sound? Still would be the longest ship ever launched.
Anonymous No.64253807 >>64253959 >>64254159
>>64253529
>2000 ft design
Estimating by the Ford, Yamato and Iowa classes, it could theoretically measure 2000 feet long, have a beam of about 250 feet, and weigh a million tons
BB No.64253959 >>64254007
>>64253807
You scaled up in 3 dimensions right? I've been designing a 2000 ft ship, and admittedly at a much narrower beam of 180 ft the design looks to come in about 350,000 t. The main difference I think is draught, if you want a million tons on 2000 x 250 the draft has to be at least about 29m (95 ft) which is massive and wouldn't fit into any harbour. I'm targetting a 50 ft draught, which is possible to fit in commercial harbours, although still too deep for many.
With that sort of draught (90 ft) you could have a hell of a deck-armour though ... my design is 18" deck armour, already more than Yamato's belt, if you're willing to have a 90 ft draught you could just about double that
Anonymous No.64254007 >>64254028
>>64253959
Draught doesn't matter as much as beam. If you build your superstructure low and squat, and have a big fat beam, you don't need to fiddle with draught and weight (ballast) for stability. So you may assume a draught of 35 feet, roughly.

All I did was take a conservative beam-length ratio of 8:1 and estimate density based on these 3 ships. By and large it won't change much because, again, these figures adopt a conservative estimate for height and displacement, since we don't have access to the actual formulae for calculating these things.

I have not worked out armour plating. Something like 40% of steel (400,000 tons!) should be realistic.
BB No.64254028 >>64254062 >>64254447
>>64254007
You can work out displacement fairly easily. Mutltiply draught x length x beam, and multiply by a block coefficient (0.6-0.7 is common for IRL ships, at this scale you can probably push it to 0.75 or 0.8).
The problem with low-draught is deck-armour. If the ship needs X tonnes for a turret, you can just make it longer or wider until you get X tonnes of buoyancy. If you want X thickness of deck armour (+ keel armour now that guided torps are everywhere) then you need a minimum of 8 times that thickness in draft just to float the armour alone (steel is 7.85 times denser than water) and it doesn't matter how wide/long you make the ship
My design has another 12" on the keel, for example, so that + the 18" deck is 30" (or 2'6") so it needs 20 ft of draught just for deck/keel armour, not including side-armour, engines, guns, etc, etc
Anonymous No.64254062 >>64254447
>>64254028
>If you want X thickness of deck armour (+ keel armour now that guided torps are everywhere) then you need a minimum of 8 times that thickness in draft just to float the armour alone (steel is 7.85 times denser than water) and it doesn't matter how wide/long you make the ship
I think you might be double counting the armour there

but I don't know much about displacement and draught
easy answer is just militarise the Seawise Giant. it's a bit smaller than 2000 feet or 1 million tons but it's quite big
Anonymous No.64254159 >>64254447
>>64253529
>>64253807
If you want to theorycraft an Xbox hueg battleship, SpringSharp is the way to do it.
I'll whip up something in an hour or two once I'm done watching a film.
Anonymous No.64254165
Anonymous No.64254169
Anonymous No.64254171
Anonymous No.64254174 >>64254884
Anonymous No.64254190
The thickness of the Yamato-class side armor plates was such that the rapid cooling after heat treatment did not penetrate deep into the interior, preventing martensite from being generated as intended.
Additionally, the installation of armor plates must be limited to about 70 tons per plate, and as the plates get thicker, they must be subdivided, increasing the number of weak spots at the joints.
Anonymous No.64254447 >>64254511
>>64254159
>>64254062
>>64254028
I don't know how SpringSharp holds up at these enormous displacements, even with six quad-barrel 20" gun turrets (three in a low/high/low fore, same arrangement aft), an 8" secondary battery, a 4.5" DP tertiary battery, 32 knots top speed, 20,000 nautical miles of cruise range, 20" belt and turret armour, etc. it comes in at a whopping 381,100 tons standard.

https://pastebin.com/wLmFCWbM
BB No.64254511 >>64254546
>>64254447
I know nothing about SpringSharp. I'm using a calculator and a pen.
I reckon I can do a lot better than that too. Notably, over double the armour and a lot faster. (Because, what good is a 32 knot gunship when your enemies can run away at 32 knots? You need to run them down)

Admittedly I have no plan on armament. First version had 12 twin-15" Bismarck guns
Anonymous No.64254546 >>64254553
>>64254511
SpringSharp is a fancier calculator, but if you don't know the general rules on how to use it you'll probably run into issues.
I could throw a lot more armour and speed into it from a hull packaging perspective, but it's gonna blow the weight up a fair bit.
Anonymous No.64254552
>>64253529
Seems kinda small desu, we must go bigger
Anonymous No.64254553 >>64254631
>>64254546
Forgot to add, the main reason to use SS is because it has important formulas for figuring out required engine power for a given top speed on the specified hull size, or how much weight you can cram on your ship before the hull isn't strong enough or it tips over.
BB No.64254631 >>64256505 >>64256899
>>64254553
I'm taking that as part of the challenge of desiging. The weight and buoyancy is fairly eqasyto calculate. (it's just volume displaced, and I don't know if it calculates total or just the amount in the citadel) I don't know the formulas for the engine power it uses, but I can use the empirical Admiralty Formula to get a scaling factor from the Iowas, and the metacentric height should give a fairly good idea of the ship's roll characteristics. (Wikipedia lists Vanguard's metacentric heigt as about 8 feet, and given her excellent seakeeping, I feel inclined to copy that, although I have not yet run any calculations on stability. I think, given the keel armour's weight, the ship will be stable, if not too stable, which can be solved with a heavier superstructure)
I think about 1,000,000 shaft horsepower should bring her to 40 knots, although this calculation is for an earlier version of the hull and I need to re-do it.

Does SS do screw requirements? Prop design is a bit of black magic as I understand it, and for that much power I will probably need a wide transom stern and a screw arrangement that resembles an eldritch horror
Anonymous No.64254698 >>64254700 >>64254781
The refitted standards are so FUCKING cool
Anonymous No.64254699 >>64254729 >>64258578
Someone needs to hurry up and invent force fields whose protection is directionally proportional to the amount of power that you shove into them, meaning that large ships have better protection, from their larger power-plants they can fit and we get to have cool battleships for a while again.
Anonymous No.64254700 >>64254722 >>64254736
>>64254698
a bit of standardization in the AA sector wouldn't have hurt much
Anonymous No.64254712
Anonymous No.64254722 >>64254741
>>64254700
nigger what are you talking about
Anonymous No.64254729
>>64254699
bigass lazors hold that promise, sort of
in atmosphere they can only be used as CIWS, and a big ship will be able to mount many more of them than a small one
other big ships will have to launch as many laser-resistant, inexpensive projectiles as possible from way over the horizon to have a hope of penetrating the laser bubble
I'd say the future is bright for super-battleships
Anonymous No.64254736 >>64254741 >>64254773
>>64254700
I count like 4 calibers in 6 different kinds of mounts, feel free to correct me
Anonymous No.64254741
>>64254736
>>64254722
oops
Anonymous No.64254773 >>64254846
>>64254736
20mm Oerlikon, 40mm Bofors, and 5"/38 cal secondary battery.
You're also literally the only person on the internet criticizing late war USN AA.
Anonymous No.64254781
>>64254698
oh lawd she comin'
Anonymous No.64254838
>>64248860
That was about space navies
Anonymous No.64254846 >>64255096 >>64255128 >>64256793 >>64256975
>>64254773
the 20mm lack stopping power and has pitiful practical range, they should be deleted in favor of more Bofors in better armored quad mounts
the 5in38s make sense as a dual-purpose secondary battery but you don't really need such a big secondary battery and they move too slowly to be really great in the AAA role at medium/short ranges, so I would delete a couple of those in favor of... you guessed it, more Bofors in better armored mounts
Anonymous No.64254884
>>64254174
Richelieu's cuter with a moe fang
Anonymous No.64255096 >>64255510
>>64254846
5in/38 mounts have more than enough traverse speed to track planes outside and within bofor range, and thanks to VT fuze and longer range, they create an extra layer of AA bubble that bombers need to go through.
Anonymous No.64255128 >>64255510
>>64254846
Why not replace them all with fully automatic radar guided 3" while you're at it, moron
Anonymous No.64255510 >>64255541 >>64257807
>>64255096
>and within
no
>they create an extra layer of AA bubble
yes, the long-range layer, which is why I am not proposing to delete ALL of them, just one pair of turrets, 4 guns
>>64255128
>fully automatic radar guided 3"
not sure they were available at the time?
Anonymous No.64255541 >>64255544
>>64255510
Within I meant 3km is within bofor range and 5in can still track the planes.
Anonymous No.64255544
>>64255541
the bubbles overlap at their respective inner/outer edge yes, that is as it should be
you are covering all the space quite nicely with just two calibers
Anonymous No.64255574
I personally want a film adaptation of second Guadalcanal.
Anonymous No.64256434 >>64256768
Anonymous No.64256437
Anonymous No.64256505 >>64257263
>>64254631
>Does SS do screw requirements?
I think so to a degree, it was telling me there was too much power per shaft on the 8 shaft design, but it might not be accounting for the fact that the ship is so massive that you could use enormous blades.
Anonymous No.64256768
>>64256434
Anonymous No.64256793 >>64256849
>>64254846
>what is layered defense, the post
Anonymous No.64256849 >>64258392
>>64256793
you are trying to argue with success
the Oerlikon 20mm was replaced by better guns (notably those derived from the Hispano Suiza 404) soon after WWII, while the Bofors soldiered on until 1975
Anonymous No.64256899 >>64256931 >>64256993
>>64254631
Made some updates, the weight has gone up but it makes 40 knots and has some additional armor and DP guns, I'm using the 'end' armor to emulate having some beefy fore and aft bulkheads. The whole idea is a bit wack though, the dimensions are too big to make an efficient use of the ship space, but god damn would she be just about unsinkable.
https://pastebin.com/Zpe5A9Ch
Anonymous No.64256931
>>64256899
dear God it's almost as expensive as the Norden bombsight
Anonymous No.64256975 >>64257038
>>64254846
>deleting the only guns aboard that can fire proximity shells
A+ job, anon.
Anonymous No.64256993 >>64257501
>>64256899
>8" secondaries
>4.5" tertiaries
That's not even a semi-dreadnought, it's a straight up pre-dreadnought.
Anonymous No.64257038
>>64256975
fine you can keep your stubby dicks if they make you feel better
the oerlikons have to go though
BB No.64257263 >>64258307
>>64256505
You can't use enormous blades. Compare to the Iowa: my ship has 1.7 times the width, and a slightly deeper draught, yet she's trying to push 5x that horsepower through that space. If you keep the power/shaft the same, the Iowa's 4 become 20 shafts.
Anonymous No.64257501 >>64257818
>>64256993
The 20" guns can engage enemy BBs, the 8" guns take out anything that's stupid enough to get closer and the 4.5" guns are mainly for AA or deleting particularly suicidal DDs. It's less a battleship, more a flotilla that shares a single hull.
Anonymous No.64257807 >>64258295
>>64255510
>not sure they were available at the time?
They weren't
Which is the same reason why the 20mms were used; there weren't enough 40mms available at the time
Anonymous No.64257818 >>64257929 >>64258008
>>64257501
You've successfully described the purpose of the primary, secondary, and tertiary batteries of a pre-dreadnought. Throw in torpedo boats and you've got the quaternary and quintenary and (if you're French) the senary batteries covered too.
Anonymous No.64257929
>>64257818
Pre-dreads usually come with retarded shit like only 4 main guns then every caliber known to man for secondaries like 11in, 9in, 8in, 6in, 5in 3in, many of them redundant.
Three calibers hitting different target is pretty sound, Yamato had 18.1 main guns and 2 different calibers of secondaries.
Anonymous No.64258008
>>64257818
>Throw in torpedo boats
I mean, there's easily enough displacement and room in the hull for half a small flotilla of torpedo boats in a well deck...
Anonymous No.64258117
battleships look cool but it's funny how almost every prediction about how they would be used and what was important about them ended up being wrong, but then people still love to argue about "what if" scenarios anyway. I wonder what the battleships of today are.
Anonymous No.64258295 >>64258300
>>64257807
surely a few could be spared for BBs
Anonymous No.64258300 >>64258305
>>64258295
No.
Anonymous No.64258305 >>64258318 >>64261782
>>64258300
sadness descends like falling leaves
Anonymous No.64258307
>>64257263
eh. one thing you can do is increase blade count but that brings other issues
Anonymous No.64258318 >>64258390 >>64258392
>>64258305
On a serious note.
20mm was effective close-in defence against early war aircraft, that's why they were adopted to begin with. The higher calibres and more sophisticated weapons, 40mm, 5" Dp, VT etc all came in as aircraft got faster and faster. And there was a real shortage of 40mm guns that theoretically wasn't even really resolved by war's end; the other side just ran out of aircraft first. So while you can come up with all kinds of ideal designs with the benefit of hindsight, it's not possible at the time because of unforeseeable circumstances AND production bottlenecks.
This is something that needs to be kept in mind when assessing vehicle designs, tactical decisions... everything, really.
Anonymous No.64258390 >>64258398 >>64258466
>>64258318
>hindsight
already by 1944 it was remarked that the only real use of the 20mm weapons onboard ships was to alert crewmen to the incoming air attack, since they would usually start firing first... but not much else
anyway, none of this "what if-ing" can be taken seriously. One could argue for instance that American BBs in general didn't do much and the same resources would have been better spent building AA cruisers, or that the Sherman was obsolete by 1943 but what's the point in that?
Anonymous No.64258392 >>64258401 >>64259400
>>64256849
Okay but that is a post war thing.
>>64258318 sums it up but just to add:
5" DP wasn't just for engaging air at range, they needed them because Battleships got into several close range fights with Destroyers during the war and they needed them. If anything if they could squeeze an extra pair of them on they would have based on their experience at the time.
The 20mm was also much better as a last ditch when the enemy were already on top of them and easier to place. You're talking removing 4x 20mm's for a single 40mm in some cases which is not a good trade if they even had the 40mm to spare in the first place which they didn't.

Basically go back to the 1940's during the war and make your design proposals based on the reality of the time. Quickly you'll find what they came up with is what you'd make.
Anonymous No.64258398 >>64258409
>>64258390
Mean if you told someone in the 1940's that a IJN fleet lead by a Yamato class Battleship was going to get chased off by a Fletcher class Destroyer they'd have locked you in a madhouse right till Samar happened. A dedicated AA Cruiser is more effective in hindsight but there's two main things to consider
1) IJN Battleships and Cruisers still exist in 1945 and you need something that can counter them if they come at you in force and get the drop on you. Samar demonstrated the need for this.
2) Battleships tank hits like you will not believe. A Battleship that is moving will take a lot of bomb and even torpedo hits from aircraft and later just laugh off kamikaze strikes. They were many instances of them acting as damage sponges for a fleet where the Japs would go after them instead of the more vulnerable ships which in turn was a net benefit for the allies.
Anonymous No.64258401 >>64258416 >>64261252
>>64258392
>The 20mm was also much better as a last ditch
no it wasn't. late war planes shrugged it off like gentle rain
in terms of lethality 1 40mm was far better than 4x20mm and a twin 40 mount doesn't take that much more space than a quad 20
the Bofors accounted for something like 30% of air kills in the Pacific
Anonymous No.64258409 >>64258424
>>64258398
arguably Samar would not have happened if USN carriers would have been able to operate closer to Japanese airfields and by extension ports
what was that one German cap ship that spent 98% of the war getting bombed in port?
Anonymous No.64258416 >>64258421
>>64258401
You are aware that a single 40mm mount let alone twin requires extensive wiring and fitting for it to work while you could fit several single 20mm in its place by pretty much bolting them down as is? It isn't exactly always feasible to install a 40mm especially during wartime and if given a choice between no AA and some AA I'd go for the 20mm even if by late war they do diddly a whole bunch of them is a lot of diddly.
Anonymous No.64258421 >>64258428 >>64258466
>>64258416
>oh no, the superior weapon can actually be hooked up to centralized fire control, the horror
c'mon, man
Anonymous No.64258424 >>64258425
>>64258409
>German cap ship that spent 98% of the war getting bombed in port?
Going to have to be more specific on that one. That statement describes 98% of German capital ships during the war? I assume you mean Tirpitz?
Anonymous No.64258425
>>64258424
yeah that
Anonymous No.64258428 >>64258440
>>64258421
20mm could also be done to that and you are missing the point. Installing the 40mm is a shipyard job and when you need ships on the frontline now that isn't happening.
Now if you want a real hindsight that is valid criticism as of "WTF were they even thinking at the time this decision is retarded!" statement then lets talk about the piece of shit that is the 1.1" AA gun. Whoever signed off on that when the bofors was up for consideration should have been shot as a traitor.
Anonymous No.64258440 >>64258444
>>64258428
Someone in BuOrd was simping for the Axis, there is no doubt in my mind.
the late war AA upgrades were pretty much all shipyard jobs, so idk... once the ship is being refitted, why not refit it to the best standard you can?
Anonymous No.64258444 >>64258463
>>64258440
>why not refit it to the best standard you can?
These are bullshit numbers just to illustrate but pretty much what happened in practice; say you got say 8 Destroyers coming in for a refit that can each support 4 bofors mounts but only got 16 bofors to go around, do you decide to fully refit half the destroyers or give each destroyer half a refit and hope next time they come in you got more borfors in stock? The latter is pretty much what happened when it came to refits since it was a case do the best job you can now and get those ships back to the frontline asap.
The only way really to get increased amounts of bofors is to change history and with surprisingly minor changes on the allied side that does happen.
Anonymous No.64258463 >>64258466 >>64258472
>>64258444
DDs are one thing, BBs another
Normally you would want the best for your capital ships since they represent such a massive investment/risk, not just almost good enough
Anonymous No.64258466
>>64258390
which part of
>AS AIRCRAFT GOT FASTER AND FASTER
did you not understand?

>>64258421
and when the centralised fire control gets knocked out, or your power grid takes a hit and goes down, and your entire close-in AA defence is nil, you'll find yourself wishing you had at least retained a few hand-worked AA guns so you wouldn't be holding nothing but dick

>>64258463
sure
so you put all your AA in the battleships
and your defenceless destroyers all get wrecked
now you have no ASW and no early warning pickets so your battleships get raped anyway
well done
Anonymous No.64258472
>>64258463
Same situation applies. You want to cycle your ships in from the frontlines and in many cases the AA they had installed was basically everything they had in stock at the time. They are not going to let a ship sit around in dock for a month while they wait for more of the AA guns they want get delivered and if they got multiple coming in at same time they'll try to split them evenly best they can. This is why AA armament does vary wildly between ships.
Honestly this is just logistics during war 101. If you need something on the frontline now you take what you got and don't wait.
Anonymous No.64258533
Forever finding it cool that mighty Moe launched cruise missiles during the gulf war.
Anonymous No.64258558 >>64259179
So alt history discussion time. You go back in time to 1940 and tell Darlan not to be a cuck or he'll die unceremoniously in infamy on the losing side of history.
Fast forward to the Battle of the Denmark Straight, Bismark sees two large ships emerging from the morning mist. The one to its right it identifies as the Prince of Wales which appears to be going for the Prinz Eugen. The other you have to squint but when you see it has two quad turrets on the front and is opening fire, it can only be the Richeliu. How does this battle go differently?
Anonymous No.64258578 >>64259864
>>64254699
what's next, rocket-assisted docking?
Anonymous No.64259179 >>64259277
>>64258558
Bismarck's golden bb punches through Richelieu instead
The French blame the British for any one of a hundred unrelated reasons
Hood withdrew and was later sunk in the Java sea
Anonymous No.64259277 >>64259393 >>64259764
>>64259179
Wasn't Richelieu better armored with less weak spots? It was a one in a million chance for the hit on Hood anyway since Hood's sloped 12-in belt could stop Bismarck's shells at the distance they were engaged in.
Anonymous No.64259307
>>64238480 (OP)
>Battleship
obsolete
Anonymous No.64259393 >>64259411
>>64259277
Thing is million to one chances have a habit of occurring roughly nine times out of ten.
Anonymous No.64259400 >>64259764
>>64258392
this also comes down to hindsight but it was found that 20mms were ineffective even as a final line of defense because even if you shot a kamikaze down with one the flaming wreck would still crash into your ship.
Anonymous No.64259411 >>64259425
>>64259393
Not quite. If the chances are *exactly* one in a million, they're guaranteed - anything else (even as minor a shit as "one in 1,000,000.0000000001"), and regular probability calculations take over.
Anonymous No.64259425 >>64259470
>>64259411
You've never read Terry Pratchett have you?
Anonymous No.64259448
>>64243466
Evergreen Air and Space Museum in Oregon
Anonymous No.64259470 >>64261507
>>64259425
...y'know, I could've sworn I was the one quoting Pratchett, but it looks like you were. Now I've got to figure out where the "exactly million to one only" line comes from.
Anonymous No.64259694 >>64259764
If you wanna build a HUEG boat why not revive project Habbakuk?

I'm assuming pyrekete wasn't quite the miracle material they claimed it to be since it hasn't really been used much since.
Anonymous No.64259738 >>64259769
the lonesome queen of the north
Anonymous No.64259743 >>64259769
Anonymous No.64259747 >>64259761 >>64259769 >>64259917
to this day
KM Tirpitz is the biggest battleship ever finished in Europe
Anonymous No.64259753 >>64259769
Anonymous No.64259757 >>64259768 >>64259774
Anonymous No.64259761 >>64259778
>>64259747
Anonymous No.64259764
>>64259277
Yes, that's why it's still a "golden bb"

>>64259400
>20mms were ineffective even as a final line of defense because even if you shot a kamikaze down with one the flaming wreck would still crash into your ship.
It worked up until 44 however because pilots (generally) weren't suicidal until then
But who could have predicted the mass kamikaze tactic?

>>64259694
Firstly the ice freezers were theoretical and in practice probably wouldn't have worked that efficiently
More importantly however it was difficult to repair and in combat would have sunk to a few bombs, because... imagine a giant platform made of ice, and then it cracks down right the middle. Okay THEORETICALLY you now have two smaller platforms, but practically a lot of the freezers would probably have been destroyed in the breakup, which leads to more ice calving off, which leads to more destruction, etc probably with massive loss of life and aircraft.
It wasn't just a glass cannon, it was an ice cannon.
Anonymous No.64259768 >>64259774
>>64259757
german warships come with an coat of arms.
Anonymous No.64259769
>>64259738
>>64259743
>>64259747
>>64259753
>sat in the cuck fjord while the RN was constantly edging themselves in case it left
I know I know fleeting in being ect
Anonymous No.64259774
>>64259757
>>64259768
Anonymous No.64259778 >>64259782
>>64259761
Anonymous No.64259782 >>64259812 >>64259875
>>64259778
Different ship, that one didn't spend the war hiding.
Anonymous No.64259785 >>64259860
>>64238817
>Mission killed by one swordfish.
This is like saying Osama Bin Laden was defeated by one bullet, just a bunch of aggro nonsense.

Bismarck detractors like to forget that it just sank the most gassed-up ship of the most gassed-up navy on the planet (and many of these detractors are also, amazingly, Hood-gassers). Hood's loss was a humiliation not only because it showed the British hadn't effectively implemented the lessons from Jutland, but because no ships should have been lost destroying Bismarck because Britain controlled the Atlantic on the surface and in the air.

Bismarck was doomed the moment it was ordered to the Atlantic, all Britain had to do was keep it contacted until air sorties could be launched against it.
Anonymous No.64259812
>>64259782
half of the rn home fleet camped outside her fjord.
her sister ship must have left an impression.
Anonymous No.64259832
>>64238480 (OP)
Warspite best battleship
Glowworm best ship
Anonymous No.64259860 >>64279881
>>64259785
hood was a piece of shit and the royal navy was only the 3rd strongest navy in the war
Anonymous No.64259864 >>64277709
>>64258578
Good old Arpeggio, my kind of retarded but fun series
Anonymous No.64259875 >>64259892
>>64259782
>British ship defeated by the first ship it ever fought, sunk by the first hit it ever took which was ABOVE the waterline
"L-lucky shot, doesn't count, Hood was still mighty!"
>German ship never ordered to move because of strategic decisions, sunk by the 5th operation undertaken against it as-and-when the enemy had the resources to do so, took two BELOW waterline wounds to sink
"You see, the entire Bismarck-class was a horrible failure of a design"

K. I guess that all the ships of TF-34 are poorly designed because they were used to chase a decoy force.
Anonymous No.64259892 >>64261382
>>64259875
>1920
>1941
Anonymous No.64259911
>>64243466
Can do USS Alabama near Mobile then drive to USS Texas near Houston

https://www.galvestonnavalmuseum.com/
Anonymous No.64259917 >>64261416
>>64259747
We just forgetting HMS Vanguard?
Anonymous No.64259921
>>64238817
rodney a ugly
Anonymous No.64259938 >>64259972 >>64261312 >>64261339 >>64261364 >>64264437
>>64247570
Drachinifel…. Rando…. Anon unfuck yourself and go listen to some of the finest navel commentary your gonna encounter.. seriously the battle of Samar… the effort to raise the battleships after Pearl Harbor. Basically anything navel before the Cold War.. Drachs probably got a video of it and usually has a great take on it.
Anonymous No.64259943
>>64247574
It’s just 3 hours of jellicoe wondering if it’s the right time to turn.
Anonymous No.64259944
>>64247538
>>64247771
Kino
Anonymous No.64259972
>>64259938
yep, good channel, the Pearl Harbour Salvage series is amazing
Anonymous No.64261252
>>64258401
>late war planes shrugged it off like gentle rain
555-Come-On_Now.jpg
Anonymous No.64261312
>>64259938
I like Drachs line immediatelly following Hoods demise. Something along the line
>Ok you've just put someone out with one punch and while you're feeling smug , silence ensues, everyone in the bar turns to look at you while picking up a weapon....
Anonymous No.64261339 >>64261341 >>64261364
>>64247538
>>64247570
>>64259938
Drachinifel is pretty good, but Prof. Andrew Lambert is the asbsolute GOAT when it comes to naval history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l427CERpUgU
Anonymous No.64261341
>>64261339
Samefagging here.
But also, one of my favorite docos, 3 hours long and made in fucking Australia from all places.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79NGkgCawl0&t=11731s
Anonymous No.64261364
>>64261339
>>64247538
>>64259938
ENTER
https://m.youtube.com/@DrAlexClarke
Anonymous No.64261382 >>64261421 >>64261695 >>64261752 >>64261990
>>64259892
exactly, hood was an old battlecruiser and useless against a modern battleship.
taking age and design into consideration: prince of whales, the brits most modern ship, was crippled by bismarck in the same fight.
old and new battleship tech of britannia were not adequate, it seems.

german ships were superior, but outnumbered.
BB No.64261416 >>64261752
>>64259917
Tirpitz vs Vanguard:
>42,200 vs 44,500 (standard displacement long tons)
>51,800 vs 52,250 (full load)
>823'6" vs 814'4" (length overall)
>118' vs 108' (beam)
>30'6" vs 36' (draft, but Tirpitz's is "standard" and Vanguard's is "deep load")
>both 30 knots
>161,000 vs 130,000 shp
Vanguard's deeper and marginally heavier but in most other respects Tirpitz still holds the title
Anonymous No.64261421 >>64261543
>>64261382
>german ships were superior
>scharnhorst and gneisenau had to run from a 25-year-old battlecruiser
>bismarck got crippled by an obsolete biplane and had her guns silenced in a handful of minutes by a pair of treaty cripples
Take the pastapill, son, and realize that the Regia Marina was the third-best Axis navy after Imperial Japanese Navy and Imperial Japanese Army's naval branch.
Anonymous No.64261507 >>64261752 >>64262898
>>64259470
Yes, that's Terry Pratchett. It's from a book where some nightwatchmen are trying to tweak Fred Colon's (I think) chances of hitting [something] with a crossbow to be *exactly* 1/1000000.
Anonymous No.64261543 >>64261624 >>64261662
>>64261421
wrong. germany realized that the battleship era was over.
so they did not invest more resources in battleships.
thats why scharhorst were designed as trade raiders and not to encounter warships, i.e. their artillery was a budget version. and by 1942-43 most large surface vessels were scrapped.
submarines and long range torpedo planes were cheaper and had a much bigger effect.
what did britsh abttleships accomplish exept getting sunk by the germans and the japanese?
stay in harbor or outside a fjord? hide from submarines?
Anonymous No.64261624
>>64261543
>what did britsh abttleships accomplish exept getting sunk by the germans and the japanese?
They participated in defensive and convoy escort duties, as well as wrecking the German and Italian surface fleets in several engagements.
The very existence of a superior surface warfare fleet (also including carriers) is what forced the Germans to invest in that type of naval strategy to begin with. Keep in mind that the British naval doctrine was built around sea control and expeditionary capability, battleships and carriers were absolutely necessary for this purpose and they wouldn't have been able to make it work by copy/pasting the German or French fleet composition.
Also, the Italian sub fleet indeed had a better success rate than the German one.
Anonymous No.64261662 >>64261678
>>64261543
>i.e. their artillery was a budget version
One, Germany couldn't afford the political fallout of building battleships with a decent main battery after building the Deutschlands. Two, they couldn't build anything better than 11" guns when they were building Scharnhorst and Gneisenau due to their naval industry having withered on the vine for so long.

Building a pair of fast battleships with a gimped main battery was a mistake, S&G should have at least had some halfway decent 13-14" guns in the same vein of Dunkerque, which would have made them far more effective against enemy capital ships.
Anonymous No.64261678
>>64261662
>Building a pair of fast battleships with a gimped main battery was a mistake
They were built with 11" guns because Hitler wanted big battlleships on the slipways and under consntruction NOW.
But the 38cm guns were not yet ready for production.

So they buit them with 28cm guns, and planned to replace the turrets in a refit.

The 28cm triple turrets were planned to go to a class of new Panzerschiff(wannabe battlecruiser/large cruiser, whatever you want to call them), and S&G were to get double 38cm turrets.
Anonymous No.64261693
The strength of the 28cm gun, which had a penetration power comparable to that of a battleship-class main gun in close-range battle, was not demonstrated.
Anonymous No.64261695 >>64267367 >>64267592
>>64261382
>prince of whales, the brits most modern ship, was crippled by bismarck in the same fight.
It was crippled by itself not the Bismark. They had sent it out without any real sea trials and their guns jammed which is why they disengaged more than anything.
German warships scarcely have better specs than ships much lighter than them. You compare Bismark to a Richelieu, Littorio, North Carolina, a KGV that actually worked, Bismark is barely comparable and in a number of cases worse. Hell you throw Bismark against a Nelson, Colorado or Nagato my money is on those designs tearing her to shreds provided she doesn't do the smart thing and run away.
Anonymous No.64261752 >>64261769
>>64261416
Generally size is based purely on displacement when it comes to ships.
>>64261507
Yes, it's Guards! Guards!, based Pratchett enjoyer.
>>64261382
You have a poor understanding of naval history and it shows.
Anonymous No.64261769 >>64261801 >>64262049 >>64262050
>>64261752
>Pratchett enjoyer
Since on the subject, was Monstrous Regiment just a Rule 63 Sharpe novel? A lot of the tropes are there.
Anonymous No.64261782
>>64258305
this mount always struck me as retarded because of the divergent trajectories for each twin set
Anonymous No.64261801 >>64262050
>>64261769
They definitely hit some of the same beats
Anonymous No.64261990
>>64261382
>whales
Anonymous No.64262028
>>64239681
>survivors
if the ship wasn't in the process of sinking and beyond aid, then those would be traitors.
Anonymous No.64262049 >>64262061
>>64261769
That book made me stop enjoying Terry Pratchett. It made me realize how political his stuff actually was, muh stronk women shit. And that was like 2010, before everything wws political.
Anonymous No.64262050 >>64262061
>>64261769
It was Pratchett getting old and banging on the feminist bullshit more explicitly than ever before
Probably encouraged by his fucking daughter

>>64261801
Just hit the same beats as any other classic British war novel by e.g. C.S. Forester, Marryatt

Which, to me, is an indicator of his aging. Pratchett's earlier novels skillfully jumped POVs and timelines in an interesting and engaging manner
Anonymous No.64262061 >>64262087
>>64262049
I think it was also the first book he had wrote where his Alzheimers was starting to kick in as well.
>>64262050
I wonder how much his later books was his daughter rather than him. There was definitely a noticeable shift in quality when it came to characters which was what he used to do really well. His stories were never particularly good in the first place but they were propped up heavily by their characters.
BB No.64262080 >>64262099 >>64262101
Was the Bismarck a treaty-compliant design?
Conventional wisdom says no, but I've heard the argument that they invoked the escalator clause (because they could see the Japanese didn't give a fuck) which would make the Bismarck/Tirpitz treaty legal.
Is this true?
Anonymous No.64262087
>>64262061
>I wonder how much his later books was his daughter rather than him
Very little, because it was his writing assistant (i forget his name) and not Rhonda(?) who helped him write

There's a distinct shift in quality round about Unseen Academicals. Raising Steam is totally unreadable.
Some fans don't like the Tiffany Aching series but I actually think they're better written than these "main line" novels
Anonymous No.64262099
>>64262080
At the time Bismarck began building, the treaty era was over
Anonymous No.64262101
>>64262080
Under the Anglo-German Naval Agreement I believe it was weirdly treaty compliant. If you compare to other treaties then no but it wasn't bound by those.
Anonymous No.64262898
>>64261507
Thanks for the confirmation, good to know my memory is only slightly faulty.
Anonymous No.64263623 >>64263975 >>64264713
ok someone explain this to me. the reason I hear for there not being major carrier ops in the mediterranean or the north sea is that it was too dangerous because of proximity to land bases. wouldn't that be just as dangerous if not more to fleets without any air cover at all?
Anonymous No.64263975 >>64263986
>>64263623
They were used sometimes for pure carrier operations, like Taranto or supporting Italian campaign,but for most of time their role was to provide fighter CAP for the fleets. Axis bombers had enough range to be a thread anywhere on Mediterranean and there was a lot of them
Anonymous No.64263986 >>64264160
>>64263975
>Axis bombers had enough range to be a thread anywhere on Mediterranean and there was a lot of them
but doesn't that mean it would be even more important to have carrier task forces like the ones used to attack iwo jima instead of sailing your battleships around with only tiny carriers with shitty fulmars and biplanes to protect them?
Anonymous No.64264160 >>64264351
>>64263986
The allies could project air from Malta and North Africa, then after Torch even more airfields became available.
Anonymous No.64264351
>>64264160
so wouldn't that also make it safe for carriers?
Anonymous No.64264437
>>64259938
Isnt good
First videos just wikipedia clones
Even the picture order was unchanged
Anonymous No.64264713 >>64264735
>>64263623
Protip: carriers are used only to bring aircraft to where there aren't enough of them
The Mediterranean is a giant lake and the shores and islands around it are full of aircraft which will always outnumber carrier aircraft simply because of how fucking many airfields there can be

in the Pacific, carriers were used to bring more aircraft to outnumber the enemy. Even the massive might of the US carrier fleet of the time could barely contest Japanese land-based air. Operation Downfall would have been a thick red blanket of Jap aircraft over the fleet.
Anonymous No.64264735 >>64264800
>>64264713
why did they send a fleet after the bismarck then instead of just blowing it up with a mosquito or something? roma got blown up by a land based airplane but I don't know what other ships were sunk that way in yurup.
Anonymous No.64264800 >>64264807
>>64264735
>why did they send a fleet after the bismarck then
The Atlantic is very very very big and there wasn't enough land-based air at the time; priority was on home island defence up until 1942. That being said, it was a RAF PBY Catalina that discovered Bismarck, so there's that for Coastal Command

>what other ships were sunk that way in yurup
Most major British ships and a good number of escorts in the Med
Half the Axis cargo shipping in the Med, which is what starved Rommel
Tirpitz
A lot of sundry Axis convoys and shit
Quite a few Uboats
Anonymous No.64264807 >>64264826 >>64266330
>>64264800
what was the point of having a navy there at all then if you could just sink it with airplanes? was it just the navy people being in denial until force z got raped?
Anonymous No.64264826 >>64264916
>>64264807
>what was the point of having a navy there at all then
Same reason why air can't do everything on land either: persistence
You can build a squadron of medium bombers for the price of a cruiser. However the cruiser can chase Bismarck and hold contact all the way from the North Sea to the Bay of Biscay. That squadron of bombers can't. They'll run out of fuel within hours and lose contact, and one squadron is not enough to work in relays.
Then there's the issue of weather, not fully solved until 1960, after which battleships were finally retired.
Last but not least is logistics. Aircraft capable of long-range maritime patrol were only built beginning in about 1936, it would take time and lots of money to amass the large number needed to truly replace the Navy.
Anonymous No.64264916 >>64264933
>>64264826
so wouldn't those shortcomings of regular aviation make opportunities for naval aviation?
Anonymous No.64264933 >>64266136
>>64264916
A carrier and its escorts are far far FAR more expensive than clearing a runway on a patch of flat ground
Anonymous No.64264941 >>64264945 >>64264961
When aircraft take off or land, the carrier steers into the wind and increases speed.
This disrupts the fleet's formation to some extent, so it must have been troublesome to incorporate them into slow transport convoys and frequently operate escort aircraft.
Anonymous No.64264945
>>64264941
It's said to be one of the reasons (there are several) that Glorious wasn't operating a CAP; wind wasn't favourable and flying CAP would have extended the duration of the voyage due to the zigzags needed to launch and recover aircraft especially in the turbulent North Sea

Part of the controversy is that since most (all?) of the Glorious's command / tactical staff were killed, we don't know what the tactical considerations were and what the captain decided
Anonymous No.64264961 >>64264973
>>64264941
>it must have been troublesome to incorporate them into slow transport convoys and frequently operate escort aircraft
P.s. yes
The long term answer eventually was "build more escorts"
The short term answer was to weaken convoy escorts while betting that having aircraft carrier hunter killer groups would provide better overall ASW capability. This was the brainchild of Max Horton, himself a submariner, and really helped turn the tide for the Battle of the Atlantic

The problem with this tactic is that one must know how many escorts a convoy must retain, how to deploy the carrier groups, and how to protect the carriers themselves. The British lost a couple of carriers to the latter problem; the Americans couldn't quite grasp the former and the Second Happy Time ensued.
Anonymous No.64264972 >>64264979 >>64267181
So in retrofits of older battleships before WWII, in pretty much all cases the guns' elevation is increased from all different nations. Why? Was it a new use case or newer technology that wasn't available at the time? Why didn't they just make them able to elevate that much in the first place?
BB No.64264973 >>64264991 >>64265092
>>64264961
Didn't Admiral King make up his own shitty tactics to spite the Limeys when the USA joined the war, resulting in American ships doing stupid things for a couple years?
IIRC he hated the convoy system
BB No.64264979 >>64265059
>>64264972
You need bigger and heavier turrets to accommodate higher angles, so it's doctrinal. What point is there making your guns go from 30 degrees to 45 if you aren't expecting to fight at that kind of range anyway? Bismarck (30 degrees) had a max range of iirc 39 km, to Iowa's (45 degrees) 42ish. (Granted, Bismarck also had a greater muzzle velocity)
It's basically impossible to be accurate at that kind of range anyway.
But I have heard of some French battleships (can't remember which) with such limited elevation they could shoot only 15 km (and their main guns were actually outranged by their secondaries!) because they just didn't expect battle ranges to be as long as they turned out to be
Anonymous No.64264991
>>64264973
He gambled that going all hunter-killer would net better results instead of the combined convoy and hunter approach that the British ended up using. MAAAAYBE it was purely tactical judgement, maybe he did think he could do a better job than the Brits. Either way he was wrong.
Anonymous No.64265059 >>64265063
>>64264979
Okay, but why did they now expect the range to change so much as to do major overhaul of an entire ship? Better fire control? Improved ammunition? The guns themselves weren't upgraded, so why not have there even been outliers as to why everyone thought they were shooting flat until 1920?
Anonymous No.64265063
>>64265059
>Better fire control?
This
Nothing new. It's also happened to tank guns. Same gun same ammo, different optics, poof! 20% extra effective range.
Anonymous No.64265092 >>64265104
>>64264973
The more I read about King the more sympathetic towards him I become.
He simply just didn't have enough escorts to go around so he had to prioritize where to send him and the convoys that got the escorts were the troop convoys.
Therefore the supply convoys the justification was that if there is no protection then instead of sending them out in an all you can eat buffet may as well spread them out.
As for his Anglophobia well keep in mind his main impression of the RN he got was from Beatty so yeah that is perfectly understandable.
Anonymous No.64265104
>>64265092
>just didn't have enough escorts to go around
He was too inexperienced to know how many he really needed
>the justification was that
Any dumbfuck can theorycraft, just look at /k/
>his main impression of the RN he got was from Beatty
He treated everyone poorly including the other American service branches and his othe admirals. He was simply a bully. He had to get slapped down by Cunningham before his attitude improved. Some people are like that; they only know to demand and harangue, and themselves only respond to similar brutishness.
It's probable that Cunningham's ability to put King in his place contributed to Cunningham's promotion to tardwrangle the Americans.
Anonymous No.64266136 >>64266330
>>64264933
but as you said you couldn't build enough runways to follow the bismarck when it's running away
Anonymous No.64266330 >>64266485
>>64266136
Or indeed to carry out the many many tasks of a navy during the war, which is why a navy was still sorely needed, which is
>>64264807
>the point of having a navy there at all
Anonymous No.64266388
Musashi sending some 18in love
Anonymous No.64266474
>>64238496
Post this again, but for Kaga.
Anonymous No.64266485 >>64266529
>>64266330
so this goes back to the original question of if you can't replace the navy with an air force because the air force can't be everywhere the navy can go why wouldn't you want an air force that can sail around with your navy?
Anonymous No.64266510
how do you do, fellow fast battleships
Anonymous No.64266529 >>64266669
>>64266485
First and foremost, cost
Even to this day it's cheaper to operate carriers than to conduct combat ops solely by air to air refuelling; that is, if you want to reach out and touch someone a thousand nautical miles away

Secondly bear in mind that naval aircraft are always a step behind land-based air in development and capability. Just the physics of take off lengths etc. Also still holds true to this day.
Anonymous No.64266669 >>64267190
>>64266529
we cancelled our battleships and built 14 carriers and sent them to the pacific. why couldn't yuros do the same?
Anonymous No.64266764 >>64266979 >>64267014
was shore bombardment ever decisive?
Anonymous No.64266979 >>64268091
>>64266764
To the point they destroyed significant shore defenses? Not that I know of.
Seems like their targets were obvious and so equipment/personnel were shifted. Or weather impacted visibility/accuracy.
Stuff like destroyers could get closer and provide more rapid fire for a suppression effect. Making the enemy stay hunkered down while friendly forces landed.
Anonymous No.64267014 >>64268091
>>64266764
Depends on your definition of decisive.

As the previous poster said, they alone couldn't win you a battle, but its a good way to tell your enemy "Don't you dare try to peek your head out unless you want an explosive car thrown at you." which is a powerful argument.

Also to that end, while its in range, a ship is going to be amazing artillery support. A quick googling says the US used 105mm howitzers for artillery support. That's a lot of guns to set up, provide shells, transport, and men for. A single Fletcher Class Destroyer could provide essentially five of those (5 127mm guns), and carried its own logistics chain on board (To a degree). That assumes you only have a single destroyer on shore bombardment duty, which while there were times the US couldn't provide ships for it, but when they could they had a LOT of guns.

But to answer your question, it was never decisive, but it would be like saying artillery has never been decisive in winning a battle. True or not, an army is going to want artillery support if they can get it.
Anonymous No.64267181
>>64264972
Combat ranges were increasing dramatically during the late 1800s and early 1900s - you went from a couple thousand yards to ten, fifteen, even twenty thousand in just two decades. It took a while for fire control to catch up to the theoretical maximum range of breech loading guns, so during that time the designers chose to build turrets with "enough" elevation for expected combat ranges. Higher elevation designs would be more expensive and bulky since you need more room to move the gun assembly, so it wasn't worthwhile until you had fire control computers and range finders that meaningfully extended engagement ranges.
Anonymous No.64267190 >>64267248
>>64266669
Don't think you understand just how broke Europe was after WW2.
Anonymous No.64267248 >>64267334
>>64267190
ok but isn't that moving the argument from "it wasn't strategically sound" to "they couldn't afford it?"
Anonymous No.64267334 >>64267644
>>64267248
That wasn't the question and really it is the answer.
They'd like to do it and the only nation that was able to keep semi up for a while was the UK but by the late 70's pretty much had yet another economic collapse.
Soviets did want to get into that game but they couldn't afford the investment and geographically they were relatively fucked when it came to projecting naval power.
Anonymous No.64267367 >>64267659
>>64261695
I drive my the NC all the time, it’s facing the highway.
Anonymous No.64267469 >>64267533
To avoid damaging the barrel, it seems that they often fired weakly loaded rounds at close range with a flat trajectory.

The shells slid over the ground, making them effective against exposed objects like pillboxes, but they may have been better off firing at a higher angle from a distance against the underground positions that appeared on Iwo Jima.
Anonymous No.64267533 >>64267992
>>64267469
This is legitimately interesting Anon, you got a source on that? I would love to read more on this. I'd have thought trying to slide a 16 inch shell along the ground would just set it off
Anonymous No.64267592 >>64268668
>>64261695
into what dimension would the USS Washington have bitchslapped the Tirpitz if it had sailed out to fight TF 99?
Anonymous No.64267644 >>64267668 >>64271895
>>64267334
let me backtrack and start from the beginning

naval aviation was super important in the pacific but barely existed in the north sea or mediterranean. why?
>it was useless because their were air fields everywhere
if you were always in range of an airfield wouldn't any ship always be at risk of being sunk like force z?
>no because there weren't enough planes to cover every square mile of the sea
then wouldn't naval aviation be useful since you could always have planes where your fleet is?
>the cost was too high

let me know if I skipped something or misunderstood an argument
Anonymous No.64267659
>>64267367
>I drive my the NC
Thought this was a Miata meme at first.
Anonymous No.64267668 >>64267804
>>64267644
Carriers were more of a force multiplier in the Pacific where airfields were few and far between so that's where they largely got sent. Carriers in the med or north sea would be useful but land aviation can also do the job there so the carriers are better used elsewhere. Even so, the RN did use carriers in the med and north sea, because they were useful.
Anonymous No.64267804 >>64267872 >>64267962
>>64267668
ok but that just sounds like the original argument that they weren't useful is cope and the real reason they weren't used a lot was because they couldn't design good ones/couldn't afford to build them
Anonymous No.64267872 >>64268086
>>64267804
>guess you're too poor to pick the literal most expensive, ineffective and inefficient solution to the problem
Listen, just because Elon Musk can wipe his ass with four-ply diamond-plated tissue doesn't mean it's comfortable or that he's a poorfag for not doing it, only that he values the comfort of his asshole more than your opinions.
Fuck off.
Anonymous No.64267962 >>64268086
>>64267804
Carriers are useful as airfields, but the problem is they're a big target and a very easily-impedeable target. There's a million ways you can hit a carrier and disable its ability to launch aircraft for until it can get repaired, which requires a port to go back to, leaving you without your mobile airfield for the time being

If you've got the ability to stick aircraft on land, its harder to take a land-based airfield out of commission, because even if you bomb it there's no gaurantee that they can't fix it significantly faster.
Anonymous No.64267992
>>64267533
Although it was an old battle, the bombardment of Alexandria in 1882 has been reviewed, as the fortifications and the city were inspected immediately after the battle.
It has been pointed out that the close-range and reduced charge fire prevented inertia from working, resulting in a large number of unexploded shells.
According to his autobiography, Percy Scott, who was a second lieutenant at the time, went to retrieve the unexploded shells.
https://wholereader.com/fifty-years-in-the-royal-navy_admiral-sir-percy/
Anonymous No.64268086 >>64270808 >>64277761
>>64267962
>There's a million ways you can hit a carrier and disable its ability to launch aircraft for until it can get repaired,
they all come down to submarines or other airplanes though. for the other point, ok but why didn't they then? there were ships sunk by airplanes like roma getting fritz, but then there were ones that weren't too.

>>64267872
bismarck got taken out by a fucking biplane. imagine what a squadron full of avengers could have done to it.
Anonymous No.64268091
>>64266979
>>64267014
thanks fr fr
Anonymous No.64268668
>>64267592
The one where Admiral Lee decided he wanted to test his gunnery skills in a Battleship Olympics.
Anonymous No.64270808 >>64271097
>>64268086
They were. Most US carriers in the pacific were lost due to enemy air power, though I will admit that does include carriers like Lexington or Wasp that were scuttled after severe damage from enemy aircraft. If you count ones scuttled due to enemy damage then the US lost 7, and the Japanese lost 13.

Also a ship doesn't have to be sunk to be disabled. If I blow a big hole in the flight deck, or burn the control tower until its got nothing left in it, or crack your Avgas tanks or disable your catapults (more common in the US's case but not universal). USS Enterprise famously was a ship that was sent back to repair many times, and still able to come back and keep fighting. Disabled just means "It can't serve its role of being a mobile airfield right now."
Anonymous No.64271097 >>64272230
>>64270808
>If I blow a big hole in the flight deck, or burn the control tower until its got nothing left in it, or crack your Avgas tanks or disable your catapults (more common in the US's case but not universal).
all of the recorded instances of this happening (except for one bong humiliation) were done by planes though, and if you're getting attacked by planes I'd rather have my own planes than not.
Anonymous No.64271895 >>64272051
>>64267644
>>naval aviation was super important in the pacific but barely existed in the north sea or mediterranean. why?
A lot of the time, the north sea has rubbish weather for flying, and the German surface fleet was effectively contained so there wasn't much need to have carriers on hand in the first place. Early losses to U-boats could've left a bad taste in the Royal Navy's mouth about sailing carriers around in sub infested waters, too.
As for the med, since the axis didn't have any carriers of their own there, it was more of a "nice to have" thing if you could bring a fleet carrier of your own along. The nature of the surface fleet war in the Med was less conducive to large fleet operations in the first place, and by 1943-44 - which is when there were finally carriers to spare - the allies had taken control of that theatre well enough that there wasn't much point having them there, not when the Japs were still causing mischief.
>then wouldn't naval aviation be useful since you could always have planes where your fleet is?
Yes, to a degree, which is why you had escort carriers quietly running around that are mostly forgotten about because people seem to think all carrier warfare is like Midway.
You just need to remember that the Royal Navy were spread very thin across the globe in various theatres, and even when America joined it took a couple of years for them to build up their mass of fleet carriers.
Anonymous No.64272051 >>64272115
>>64271895
>it took a couple of years for them to build up their mass of fleet carriers.
it only took 15 months to build essex.
Anonymous No.64272115
>>64272051
That's only one carrier, the rest of them were commissioned throughout 43 and 44, i.e. "took a couple of years to build mass"

That's not counting light and escort carriers though.
Anonymous No.64272230 >>64272373
>>64271097
Yes but when a carrier takes a hit that disables it for various reasons, you no longer have those planes. If you've got multiple carriers together it can still serve that role, but if you only had one carrier? You have no more planes until another one can get there.

But to circle back around to the original point. Carriers can be disabled and pushed out, in the era we're talking about actually disabling an airfield is a lot harder, and you'd target the planes. We eventually got to where you can disable airfields (Crater the runways and put mines on them to kill repair crews) but in that era it was a lot harder to say "We destroyed the airfield" in the way that you could kill a carrier.

Plus land based aviation tends to have certain advantages such as longer runways to allow heavier/larger aircraft to launch that carriers don't.

The big advantages of a carrier are being able to put a friendly airfield anywhere there's water, and not being quite as easy to target as a land based airfield, since the carrier has to be found before it can be attacked.

So yeah, you are thinking with Carriers. Carriers let you have planes in places you otherwise would not have planes. Anywhere decently close to the enemy (Basically most of Europe) and you're better off with land based Aviation. But if you need an airfield where you can't safely build one, the carrier will be there.
Anonymous No.64272373 >>64272506 >>64273531
>>64272230
well what about some hypotheticals based on real scenarios? prince of wales and shokaku were both built at the same time. if you had shokaku instead of pow at denmark strait would hood have been more or less likely to have been sunk? what about if you had shokaku instead of prince of wales in force z? of course these are pretty big what if's, but I can't see how both wouldn't massively favor the hypothetical.
Anonymous No.64272506 >>64273531 >>64273879
>>64272373
Essentially you're talking about the Illustrious class. It certainly would have been useful, but don't forget that Force Z *was* intended to have an Illustrious-class carrier, HMS Indomitable, with them. She was damaged striking a reef or something on her way to join up and that's why she wasn't available.
In any case however their air wings were not maxed out and worked up because Britain at the time still had a shortage of land fighters let alone carrier fighters. And this shortage impacted carrier pilot training as well.
A lot of apparent tactical issues cease becoming issus when you realise it's a problem of grand logistics. And you know what they say about discussions of tactics and logistics, right?
Everything is super simple given an infinite budget, sure.

P.s.
While you're at it, you might as well ask what if the Japanese didn't have intel that the British battleships were attacking.
Or consider the impact of not having a KGV at the battle of the North Cape but having a carrier instead.
Anonymous No.64272599
>>64243466
The USS Intrepid is in NYC. If your on the West Coast, San Diego has a carrier as well.
Anonymous No.64273531 >>64273561 >>64273580 >>64273879
>>64272373
If we're going off of hypotheticals I'll try to keep as close to the original points as possible.

Denmark Strait: The weather for the initial battle was awful so its unlikely the aircraft would have launched, assuming you get the Japanese from that part of the war and not the suicidal ones from the end, though I am also assuming they get the same kind of training the airmen who hit Force Z got. Assuming Shokaku is staying a good distance away as a good carrier should, it will likely not play a part in Denmark Strait, though post-battle it may lead to the potential sinking of HMS Prince of Wales a few months earlier than expected I doubt it would have changed much for the Bismarck's fate.

As for the attack on Force Z, if you give the Japanese the same knowledge they had when launching the attack, AKA Churchill literally saying "Yeah these two are on their way" I would find it unlikely to change anything other than Shokaku taking the lion's share of the bombs. Pearl Harbor showed that Japanese Aviators wanted to hit big targets rather than important targets (Battleships and Carriers vs Dry-Docks and Shore Facilities) so at that point in the war I find it unlikely they wouldn't target a british carrier.

Also if Shokaku did kill Wales at Denmark it would likely lead to a reorganization of fleets like the loss of Force Z did, so who knows what would have gone down Malaysia.

>>64272506
Didn't actually know that an Illustrious that was meant to go with Force Z, neat! Though I will note for hypotheticals, while you can just say "Well logistics says no" its sometimes more fun to say "Screw what logistics for the time says CAN be done, what happens if we just give them all the shit they could need?"
Anonymous No.64273561 >>64273580 >>64273580
>>64273531
>Didn't actually know that an Illustrious that was meant to go with Force Z, neat!
There wasn't, Indomitable was never assigned for Force Z and she wouldn't have made it in time, even without the grounding incident.
Anonymous No.64273580 >>64273627 >>64273645 >>64273797
>>64273561
> but don't forget that Force Z *was* intended to have an Illustrious-class carrier, HMS Indomitable

>>64273531
> Didn't actually know that an Illustrious that was meant to go with Force Z,

>>64273561
Anon I said was MEANT, not actually got assigned. You can mean to send a letter and not send it for various reasons, Indomitable may not have ever been deployed with it, but the fact they had planned for it to is cool, even if improbable for the timeframe. Though who knows, if Indomitable hadn't decided to play chicken with a reef, we could have seen the first carrier loss of WWII go to the Brits.
Anonymous No.64273627
>>64273580
>we could have seen the first carrier loss of WWII go to the Brits.
Anon, Brits had already lost several carriers by the end of 1941?
Anonymous No.64273645
>>64273580
>Though who knows, if Indomitable hadn't decided to play chicken with a reef, we could have seen the first carrier loss of WWII go to the Brits.
As I said, even taking out the fact that she grounded off Jamaica, she wouldn't have made it to Singapore in time for Force Z anyway given the timing of her three week work-up which she grounded right at the start of. A.J. Boyd's; Worthy of better Memory: The Royal Navy and the defence of the Eastern Empire 1935 - 1942, Volume 2 gives a very clear and well sourced account and explanation of the situation around Force Z and HMS Indomitable.
Anonymous No.64273797
>>64273580
>we could have seen the first carrier loss of WWII go to the Brits
Anon, I...

The very first British warship sunk by enemy action in WW2 was a carrier, HMS Courageous
Anonymous No.64273879 >>64274480 >>64276024
>>64272506
the point about logistics still makes it sound like the main limitation was not having enough ships compared to them not being useful enough.

>>64273531
shokaku was 4 knots faster than bismarck so couldn't she just keep distance until the weather cleared? and the zero had 20mm cannons so it should be possible for them to shoot down a betty.
Anonymous No.64274480
>>64273879
The Allies' main limitation was not having a fleet of Arleigh Burkes, actually
Anonymous No.64276024 >>64276311
>>64273879
>the point about logistics still makes it sound like the main limitation was not having enough ships compared to them not being useful enough.
Correct, which led to the hard choices of where to assign their limited number of ships - obviously you'd send carriers to where they're needed the most and where they can be used to better effect.
Anonymous No.64276311 >>64276850
>>64276024
the ships they had seemed kind of crap too. they had 3 hull conversion carriers compared to us and japan with only 2 and they seemed to be the worst out of the designs too. eagle and ark royal weren't very impressive either. it seems like the bongs ended up way behind the nips when it came to naval aviation even though they had pioneered it and had higher tonnage limitations under the washington treaty.
Anonymous No.64276850 >>64276882 >>64277994
>>64276311
>they had 3 hull conversion carriers compared to us and japan with only 2
This dates back to the very first naval treaty. The RN at the time had the most powerful carrier fleet. In order to get the USN and IJN to agree therefore, the RN (had to) allow them to build newer and more advanced carriers up to par with the RN. Ark Royal's design was halted because of this.
The treaty also allowed for replacement of old carriers. If WW2 had been delayed, and if the treaties had remained in force, the RN had plans to build new carriers to replace their old carriers, which was permitted under the terms of the treaties.

Some people say Hitler erred in sending Germany to war too soon. Actually all sides had foreseen the inevitability of war by 1936, and accurately guessed at the composition of the Axis and Allies as well. If Hitler had delayed, the British Empire would have been fully rearmed - new carriers and fighters and all - by 1942. And the US also would have expanded massively by then. This might have been on Hitler's mind and the decision to attack - when the Allies were not ready and he had 3 years' headstart in rearmament - might have been a good idea.
Anonymous No.64276882
>>64276850
This is honestly a good take. The whole idea of "If the war started later Axis would have won" hinges on the idea that Allies were going to sit around with their thumbs up their asses doing nothing, they weren't.
In reality the timeline we are in was the Axis best chance they ever had to win the war and they blew it.
Anonymous No.64276887 >>64277667
I'd rather be on an oiler hoarding supplies and running a hidden secret still
Anonymous No.64277667
>>64276887
The Neosho experience.
Anonymous No.64277709
>>64259864
Still not the best Kongou tough.

>It was crippled by itself not the Bismark
I don't remember Prince of Wales shooting its own bridge.
Anonymous No.64277761
>>64268086
>they all come down to submarines or other airplanes though
HMS Glorious and USS Gambier Bay would like to have a word with you.
Anonymous No.64277994
>>64276850
I meant that hull conversions were shit so being stuck with 4 of them instead of only 2 was a handicap from the start, and then on top of that the courageous class was shit compared to the lexingtons and eagle was mega shit compared to kaga. the bongs basically shot themselves in the foot agreeing to tonnage limitations and then filling theirs up with garbage and not even modernizing it when it was allowed.
Anonymous No.64279881
>>64259860
true