Thread 64250114

>According to a Danish newspaper, Denmark is recommended to acquire the Franco-Italian SAMP/T NG system because, based on several parameters, it is considered to be a better fit for the Danish Armed Forces than the Patriot system.
>The Patriot system is estimated to cost twice as much, if not more. Furthermore, it needs more manpower to be operated.
>According to the Ministry of Defence officials, it is estimated that it may take several years before the Americans can deliver all the missiles that the Danish Defence requires to shoot down threats. The SAMP/T NG system is especially advantageous in terms of the speed of missile delivery. The Danish Armed Forces estimate that the American missiles may arrive one or more years later.
>According to Danish media reports, the SAMP/T NG is also favoured because weapons, missiles, and spare parts can be transported more quickly and easily by truck around the EU than across the ocean.

>>64250114 (OP)
Lead time?

Weapons buys are 75% geopolitics, 15% price and 10% capability.
What does that mean? individual purchases are meaningless if you ignore their planning for the next 30 years, even if retards cherry pick some of them to back their agenda

>>64250136
See western European IRBMs in the 80s?

>>64250150
You mean the S missiles of France? because the rest wasn't allowed to develop nukes and IRBMs.
For non-continental Europe, bongs, they killed most of their military projects during the late 1950s, BM (Blue Steel) and aircraft, in part because the US with the Skybolt bait, that ended giving them access to Polaris.

Pretty surprising as Denmark has always brought what US told them to.

>>64250197
I kinda was making a point that wasn't 100% on-topic.
The deployment of nuclear IRBMs and nuke-tipped Tomahawks in Italy and West Germany in the 80s was less about capability and more about geopolitical games with the Kremlin.

>>64250114 (OP)
I think this makes sense based on other articles I've seen saying there are so many Patriot orders from various countries that production can't fill them all quickly. Denmark may have looked at the time to fulfill their Patriot order and decided on something else. The rest of it is fluff to make it seem like the other system is better so they don't feel demoralized

>>64250206
Well the Orangutan's antics earlier this year may have soured that relationship somewhat

>>64250206
Denmark is basically the owner of Greenland, so, you know...

>>64250114 (OP)
PAC-2 is definitely better than SAMP/T
there's no way Patriot is twice the price of SAMP/T

obviously this is simply because of "buy European"

>>64250114 (OP)
>tfw diplomatic shit flinging can have consequences

>>64250206
They're free to spend their money on a less capable system if they think the money saved is worth it.

>>64250320
Aster 30 missiles are surprisingly cheap.

>>64250206
There's that little island called Greenland...

>>64250742
well, they have slightly less performance compared to SM-6, its closest American counterpart.
officially, Aster 30 B1 is 5 metres long, weighs half a tonne, and reaches out to 120km
officially, SM-6 1A is 6.6 metres long, weighs 1.5 metric tonnes, and reaches out to 370km

twice the price, yes, but for three times the range. SM-6 also has better anti-ballistic capability.

>>64250827
They had a roadmap for a complete Aster family, but as a local project they needed partners to justify the cost, that was pre 2022 when everybody was buying Patriot, NASAMS or nothing.

>>64250206
Such as?

>>64250835
I'm quite aware
in principle I think a robust and competitive European defence industry is a good thing
I just think Aster Block 2 should have been a thing five fucking years ago, that's all

>>64250401
>Buying missile from people trying to invade you
Anon...

>>64250206
Yeah, then the US started to threaten to invade Denmark

They're buying frigates that will probably be using the same missiles. Either France's FDI, or Britain's Type 31

>>64250206
>childish trumpino and his cronies openly discuss invading your territories
>US goes for a little skirmish over yemen and ysrael and suddenly their stockpiles start to thin
>drunken pete in pentagon orders all deliveries halted
>allies don't get missiles they ordered years in advance
>US openly talks about remotely turning off US-made tech like fighters and anti air systems
>ooooh aaaah why those pesky Euros don't want to trust our military tech

Art of the deal

>>64250206
>Pretty surprising as Denmark has always brought what US told them to.

FYI, in nordic cultures you can build trust with actions over time and reap the benefits even as an ousider (non-scandinavian, non-family, different race) and even distance yourself easily - but BETRAYAL of that trust is remembered for a long fucking time, heavily.

No amount of ass kissing will save you, it's simply GONE.

>>64250847
And SYLVER should be offering more quad-pack options (ex. VL MICA NG), and an MU90-tipped version of the VL SCALP.

>a couple of years to receive the missiles is considered too late
We are going to be at war soon right EUbros. First EU vs Russia, later China and US

>>64250206
>Pretty surprising as Denmark has always brought what US told them to.

That ended pretty quickly once US demanded Greenland in payment.

>>64250114 (OP)
No shit. Patriot has more customers already.

>>64251418
Feels like the USA will sit it out even if Taiwan gets invaded.

>>64251378
bla bla bla

call me when the Scandis do something about mudslimes raping everything in sight

>>64250114 (OP)
Good. Reliability and growing military industrial base are more important than few percentage points in perceived theoretical capabilities. It will shoot down whatever russians have and it's enough.

>>64250827
The Aster 30's biggest potential advantage, given its low weight (550 kg, or around 1210 lb), and relatively compact size (180 mm, or ~7.1'', diameter), is that, with the proper packaging and vehicle choice, you could theoretically create a Buk-style heavy tactical SAM.
This is currently a massive gap in Western capabilities: you have a bunch of short- and short-medium SAMs, then the BIG NIGGER Patriot THAAD emplacements, which lack true tactical mobility (despite the best efforts of ukie operators). And nothing in-between. Having a tracked TELAR with 4 A30B1NT would both cover that gap, and provide a more tactically flexible/redeployable alternative to lugging a Patriot (or equivalent) around.

>>64253819
SAMP/T is already mounted on a wheeled TELAR
I'm not sure if a tracked chassis is strictly necessary

>B1 NT
iinm the NT is a full size 21" missile. honestly no different from mobile Aegis Ashore launching SM-6 1Bs

Europeans realizing they should have been making their own shit this whole time after being told to do so for decades feels like when you get a bratty teenager to finally clean their room but they try to make you out to be the bad guy.

>>64252685
I think that happens waaaay less than one is led to believe, and I say this as an American.

>>64254046
it happens at least an order of magnitude more than if they weren't there
I'm not ranting, I'm being perfectly rational: just look at the official statistics
the numbers are published, people just refuse to read them, or tacitly ignore them, or invent "justifications" like "they come from another culture, they don't understand ours"
>wait what? are you saying in their culture rape is permitted?

>>64254039
And when France literally does what you advocate by its own shit precisely because he got the right all along award, you shit on them for doing their own thing instead of buying American
Make up your fucking mind schizo

>>64254039
Remember when Germany started developing a stealth fighter in the 80s and the US put pressure on the German government to force them to cancel the project?

>>64254054
>>64254055
Here come the Euschizos trying to justify failing to meet NATO dues for decades

>>64254039
reminder that if the yuropoors had done as Trump said in his first term and invested 3% of GDP in rearmament, i.e. FIVE YEARS before February 2022, Russia would either never have invaded, or Ukraine would be so hilariously well-equipped the zigger casualty count would be ten times what it is today

>>64254054
>increasing European defence spending and readiness means you must only buy French and nothing but
most cooperative Fr*nch "ally"

>>64254069
>Russian invasion of Ukraine is 2022

>>64254076
Yes we get that Crimea happened earlier, why did Europe continue to buy Russian gas after that?

>>64254076
obviously I meant 2022 and not 2015, faggot

but okay, if you want to play that way, I can too. if Europe had literally not reached rock bottom in defence spending in 2014, but had maintained a proper deterrent in the preceding decades, Russia wouldn't have invaded then either

pedantic enough for ya, you dozy cunt?

>>64254039
Us has actively manipulated against European arms industry because it was direct competitor.

>>64254147
>Schizophrenic excuse number 2398742398234
Reminder, your countries were doing so poorly in the mid 2010s for defense spending and you were buying Russian gas that Russia invaded Ukraine.

>>64254149
Completely diffent issue. USA speficially wanted Europe to buy their weapons Russian resources has nothing to do with it.

What MAGA streamer got blown up tonight?

>>64254093
Why would ziggers care about NATO's spending when Ukraine is not related to them? They would have invaded either way, ask Chechenia or Georgia. And even if 10% of GDP went into defense, you'd see the exact same "it might have been a mistake" response over Poland getting droned. Literally inconsequential to irrational Russians actions.

>>64254178
Learn to read
>or Ukraine would be so hilariously well-equipped the zigger casualty count would be ten times what it is today

>>64254147
>>64254158
>increasing European defence spending and readiness means you must only buy American and nothing but
Average Yuropoor IQ

br

>>64254074
Yes.

>>64250206
Turns out that behaving like monke makes people become anti-monke.

>>64252685
What does this have to do with buying patriots? Fuck off with your bullshit argument.

>I will bullly and hint at attacking countries which have been trustworthy friends and allies for generations
>I will also base my economics and tariffs policy purely on my morning mood
>wtf why does nobody want to buy your stuff anymore? whatever, we don't need you anyway

The Shart of the Deal, indeed

>>64254300
>What does this have to do with buying patriots
Nothing; it was a response to Mr "HURR DURR SCANDI PRIDE NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT"

Claiming that you're standing up for your national pride by buying SAMP/T in response to the POTUS's remarks while not getting rid of the filth walking around your streets attacking your women is the most pathetic form of hollow chest-beating

>>64254186
https://www.euractiv.com/news/pentagon-warns-eu-against-blocking-us-firms-from-defence-fund/
Back in 2019 when the EU first launched its plan of buying weapons using money from the EU budget, Trump complained that this excluded US companies.

Did we do something to hurt Russia again?

>>64254808
Yeah so they should've just told him to fuck off and just fucking bought something already instead of just talk about it
Lead, follow, or get the fuck out of the way

>>64254835
Why complain in the first place then?

>>64250114 (OP)
What's their target set? What threats are they concerned about? Why has nobody said anything about that yet?

For example, if their primary concern is cruise missiles/OWA stuff on a very short timeline, then it makes perfect sense to grab whatever's cheap/available and can still get that job done. Sure, procurement is almost always influenced by politicians in one way or another, but that doesn't mean that every procurement decision has to boil down to nothing but politics.

Pretty smart desu.
I hope Poland axes those retarded F-35 and AH-64 Apache purchases.

The Orange Monke is even repeating Kremnlin propaganda how the drone spam into Poland could have been Ukrainian disinfo..

>>64250237
>>64250262
>>64250752
>>64251044
>>64251180
>>64251378
>>64252249
>>64254265

It's five percent now.

>>64254033
>SAMP/T is already mounted on a wheeled TELAR
The current vehicle is an 8x8 heavy truck carrying an 8-cell box. It has limited tactical mobility, and follows the classic Western approach of prioritizing fixed locations. Oh, and it doesn't have an integrated radar, so it's just a TEL.
What I'm referring to would carry a 4-piece module (half a box), on something like a tracked Boxer hull, with its own radar (so, while it can interface with a standalone radar, it doesn't *have* to rely on it).

>iinm the NT is a full size 21" missile
That would be the Block 2. Block 1 NT (New Technology) is just an improved version of the original Aster 30.

>>64257267
duh
the only way to make up for underspending for a long period of time is to spend a lot more within a short period

>>64257434
you don't really need tactical mobility for something like SAMP/T that is going to be at least a brigade-level asset

They were probably aware that if shit hit the fan they wouldn't be able to get PACs for patriot. Not even if they paid ridiculous prices. So they made the obvious choice and went with something else

>>64250118
https://x.com/rasmusjarlov/status/1966823265424281906?s=46&t=4i240TMN9BFmGRKFS4WP1A
"up and running already this year"

>>64250742
>Aster 30 missiles are surprisingly cheap.
They're literally more expensive than the PAC-3 MSE. Where'd you get that surprinsigly cheap number?

>>64250114 (OP)
>buying European after the Caesar debacle
They never learn

>>64260159
>They're literally more expensive than the PAC-3 MSE.
Uhh, no. LockMart recently got paid $9.8 bill for 1970 missiles. This comes out at around $4.975 million per missile.
An Aster 30 is around $2.5 - $3 million (sources tend to swing wildly, for some reason).

>>64254788
almost as pathetic as your whatabout sophistry
america has backstabbed europe and threatened denmark especially
it's sensible that denmark is looking for other places than america to get armaments
and dont forget that is is europe that bears the brunt of the idiotic, irresponsible, irrational and genocidal policies the us and the israel lobby there pushed forward through its position as hegemon
up until two years back i thought despite all the evils and idiocies that the us being strong as it is is overall good
but this consistent outlandish stupudity and blinkered self-serving sabotage of the precarious sitiation europe has been put into has disabused me of that notion

>>64260306
>the Caesar debacle
Last I checked it's a bestseller, and the "debacle" you're referring to is literally a single client INSISTING on using a fire control system from another company and then wondering why it doesn't work.
The real debacle is the retard in chief openly threatening a European country for its land, and openly talking about killswitches.
At this point, buying american weapons is a liability.
But you'll never learn.

>>64261805
He's probably refering to the danish ceasar project that went to shit

>>64261805
>killswitch
>wadaboudism
Ice Nigger confirmed

>>64252685
>>64254053
>>64254788
Denmark has some of the toughest immigration laws in Europe and definitely the toughest in Western Europe. Germany, UK and Sweden seethe about it every now and then, although more and more of them are realizing we were right all along. It's really just Sweden that's obsessed with filling their country with immigrants, sadly Norway didn't have the natural Danish contrarianism to avoid getting peer pressured into following along.

>>64261873
QRD?

>>64262575
In short, Nexter won the artillery tender by agreeing to some of the danish requirements, but failed to meet them during verification. The requirements were connected to loading at high elevation/RoF.
So instead of lawsuit against Nexter and years of arguing, they decided to just give the whole fleet to Ukraine and give a new contract to the runner-up (israeli arty)

>>64265009
>they decided to just give the whole fleet to Ukraine and give a new contract to the runner-up (israeli
Australian admirals: fucking hell mates why didn't we think of that yer stupid cunts

>>64260306
Ceasar work in Ukraine and is very highly regarded, so probably a skill issue

>>64250114 (OP)
EU is moving away from the US because the US is an unreliable ally, lots of countries will take a slightly worse system over dependance on the US.

>>64250836
M41 Walker Bulldog
M113
F-100
F-104 Starfighter
F-16A
MIM-23A HAWK
Piper PA-18
M109
TOW

>>64265009
>new contract to the runner-up (israeli arty)
Why don't they just make their own gun truck?
Ukraine showed it can be done relatively easily and its a much poorer country than Denmark.

>>64252685
>>64254788
denmark has anti-immigration laws, and enforcement, that the US can only dream off. try again mohammad as you clearly cant tell denmark and sweden apart

>>64255617
the cope is that agent orange is old and will die soon enough. Most leadership politicians have still not gotten around to the fact that the isolationist sentiment fueling populist fifth column like him aint going anywhere

>>64265827
not with the quality and precision you get with working solutions from established industrialists. ukranians are also in a war economy with total mobilization so everything mil related is super charged compared to peace time societies like denmark

>>64250114 (OP)
>Danish newspaper wants Denmark to buy the Euro system

and?

>>64261586
>An Aster 30 is around $2.5 - $3 million

A woefully out of date number.

>>64266635
*Denmark wants to buy Euro system
There, fixed it for you

>>64250114 (OP)
>patriot
>samp/t
Why don't NATO countries make a NATO standard for even stuff like this? like you can buy your thing from whoever you like but we decide beforehand that the missiles should be a certain dimensions and parameters so that even if you buy american or european both can make a product that works with what you bought in case diplomatic relationships sour or simply the waitlist is too long
what stops europeans from making patriot missiles or us making aster missiles?

>>64266701
Is it a translation thing because that isn't what the phrase in the OP means.

>>64266760
PAC-3 and Aster 30 do different things.

>>64266670
>>64261586
>>64250114 (OP)
https://thedefensepost.com/2023/02/02/france-italy-aster-missiles/amp/
>France and Italy have jointly contracted Eurosam to deliver Aster air defense missiles for 2 billion euros ($2.18 billion).
>The contract covers the delivery of 700 Aster missiles, including Aster 30 B1 New Technology (NT), Aster 30 B1, Aster 30 B, and Aster 15 medium-range missiles.

>>64266772
even better, make them the same dimensions so you have a sam system that can do more things

>>64266635
It was a rumour published by a Danish newspaper a week or so ago, now it's official:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/denmark-buy-9-billion-air-defence-systems-tensions-with-russia-grow-2025-09-12/

>>64266801
>Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen in February ordered the military to "buy buy buy" equipment in preparation for potential future Russian aggression in Europe.

Sounds like availability is the biggest factor, much to the chagrin of the TDS posters.

>>64266814
>unironically using TDS
Jesus Christ

>>64266819
You say that as though you haven't read this thread.

>>64266814
It's not like they can say "the US threatened to invade us so we're passing on their system" no?