Thread 64282840

The Physcial Limits of Rifle by G L M Kjellgren published in the magazine «Parabellum» Lugano, Dec 1977.

>*exhales*
>aaaaaaah...
>good shit!

https://jumpshare.com/s/yEFOzIYx3BfljNVNyM6f
Published in Italian and tasnlated by some anon.
I have paper copy of this Parabellum magazine issue can send scan.

>>64282840 (OP)
End as addition presentation of Interdynamics MKR rfile that grew out from this ideas.
Madman actually made it in the metal.

>>64282840 (OP)
Wow good content on /k/!
I like it. It is dated though. Statistical models assuming randomness are fine for operations researchers, but for actual professional soldiers standards are somewhat different.

Also note figure 7. This is a conventional rifle layout and it inadvertently demonstrates why nobody likes bullpups - bullpups moving the center of gravity back is a mistake not a benefit.

>>64282904
>bullpups moving the center of gravity back is a mistake not a benefit.
Back center of gravity back affects automatic fire and this paper points out automatic fire is kinda useless for legacy militarily ammunition rifles because they have too much recoil impulse.
For essentially semi automatic rifles this effect is irrelevant.

>>64282840 (OP)
>mass loaded 3.0kg
>mag capacity 750 rounds
One of these things is not like the other.

>>64282840 (OP)
the future was LSAT

>>64282981
His vision was absolutely crazy.
Like nobody in most fever dreams of sci fi envisioned this
>750rds mag
>2500 rds/min cyclic rate
>1.81 grams round weight

"Lets lend Kelltec our ideas threads" on /k/ where child's play comparing to this.

>>64282931
Back center of balance negatively effects all accuracy and recoil control.
Putting the weight forwards makes the muzzle more stable under the swaying of your arms and also recoil.
Having the center of gravity between your hands allows you to manipulate the gun more comfortably but this is a smaller benefit.

>>64283131
paper only mentions burst dispersion

The meme round of the G.11 wasn't lighter than the 5.56 per joule after you add all the deadweight to protect the snowflake propellant, it was crap.

>>64283161
See Fig. 11

>>64283227
and?

>>64283221
Fun fact:
30 rds of M855 from M4 is 47100 jouiles or 92 joules/per 1 gram of loaded magazine
50 rds of 4.5x26R from MKR is 40000 joules or 181 joules/per 1 gram of loaded magazine

Thankfully the ACR program conclusively killed and buried all the retarded caseless and flechette meme bullshit six feet under.

>>64283314
now add the disposable cassettes.

>>64282904
>>64283131
The center of balance moves to the front once you bolt a bunch of bullshit to it.

>>64283322
He's not talking about the G11.

>>64283321
LSAT had a fully working machine gun with excellent performance but noooo we couldn't have that, we had to turn it into NGSW which was moronically retarded

we could have had belt fed carbines for all with better performance and less weight than current weapons but nooooo we needed to give everyone a DMR with earsplitting machfuck not-so-AP rounds to line (Sig)'s pockets

>>64283387
Cased telescoped is not the same thing as caseless ammunition. You can tell because it has "cased" in the name.

>>64283332
That's true. Which is why I think that a modern 20" bullpup with a light weight design, especially in the rear, with also a good amount of accessory mounting options would be an excellently balanced rifle.

>>64282840 (OP)
>>64282840 (OP)
>translation
Gigabased.
I'm obsessed with the low drag, small caliber, and high velocity concept desu. Efficiency is frustratingly underrated in small arms, people seem to think it's a zero sum game where you have to lose performance in one category to gain some somewhere else, but that doesn't have to be the case.
And speaking of case, there's also the strange infatuation with conventional metallic centerfire cases. I'm not entirely convinced by Kellgren's solution, but technologies like cased telescoped have been around for ages. They're essentially mature at this point.
I think the best service rifle cartridge with today's technology is a .264 LICC equivalent but with a lighter high BC bullet in a cased telescoped case.

Why doesn't keltec make a tec9 clone?

A loaded 750 round magazine weighs 1kg? That’s like a gram per loose round. 20 grains per round if the magazine itself weighs literally nothing. That’s 100% bullshit.

>>64282840 (OP)
>>64282856
>>64282931
>>64283013
>4mm B'RAP
Interesting read but wasn't the main reason a caseless wasn't adopted aside from cost is that they needed more heat insulation?

>>64285222
No, but that's one of the problems. The biggest issue is that there are no propellants that are sufficiently mechanically and chemically robust to serve as a cartridge case.

>>64285236
I knew there was quite a few issues with the caseless ammo just couldn't think of the exact main one off the top of my head.

>>64282904
>nobody likes bullpups
there are also the trigger pull haters
allegedly a pull bar is greater than a push bar
but since this is the future weapons thread why not go further ?
>pneumatic triggers
>hydraulic trigger
pascal's law is nice, leaking seals and boil off / icing problems would be fun tho
>electric trigger
piezo lighter and paint ball guns have these

>>64285402
I think electric triggers and eventually electronic firing will be the future because they allow you to implement things like the SMASH FCS and IWI Arbel (both jewtech, interestingly enough) natively and without the added weight of extra servos and what have you.

>>64282840 (OP)
>predicted drones

>>64285355
Just have a normal AR drop-in trigger where the hammer hits a transfer bar. The trigger would feel exactly the same regardless of the configuration.

>>64282840 (OP)
>4mm
>750rds
There's no fucking way.

>>64283013
Kel-Tec is very tame compared to the weird shit he used to be experimenting with.

>>64283221
Agree.

>>64285203
Kellgren was on some real shit back in those days, go look up the complete crackpot bullshit that was the Interdynamics MKR.
>.22WMR necked down to 20gr 4.5mm rolled copper bullets
>stacked in a 50rd semi-circle magazine for a bullpup rifle

The claim was that it was just as good as M193 Ball, but there's no fucking way that was ever true. I imagine it was probably a lot closer to the P90 and MP7, which still makes it interesting, if only it had been made centerfire and maybe had a more worthwhile powder charge to work with.

>>64285203
see
>>64283013

>>64285822
>The claim was that it was just as good as M193 Ball, but there's no fucking way that was ever true
The whole premise has always been that the bullet is more aerodynamic optimized so it doesn't loose as much velocity with range and that it is smaller caliber and can still penetrate a steel helmet.

>>64285822
>There's no fucking way.
read the paper? It's very clearly explained

>>64282840 (OP)
A fascinating look at good ideas that have been largely forgotten these days. As shown in that chart of range/recoil, the H&K 4.6x36 offered about the same range as 5.56 with a third less recoil. And in his estimate of cartridge weight, even with a conventional steel case his 4mm round would still be 20% lighter than 5.7x28! People ITT seem to be focusing a lot on caseless ammo and less on the fact that we could get pretty damned close to his dream with '70s technology. That 4.6x36 round wasn't even that long or high pressure, meaning they could've gone even smaller caliber and gotten similar performance. Sadly the adoption of 5.56, and finally the failure of the G11 really killed any interest in this sort of thing. These days we have guns like the XM5 that are the polar opposite, fuckhueg battle rifles.

>>64285890
It's really sad how averse people to any kind of innovation in this field. Even the G11 was mostly disadvantaged by the dumb burst requirement, but people never look past that and prefer to dunk on the work of people who dared to explore what was possible with the technology at the time.

>>64285822
>There's no fucking way
He explains it step by step.
Smaller diameter bullet = less joules needed to pen a target
Less joules = lighter bullet
lighter bullet = less gunpowder
less gunpowder = less barrel heat, lighter ammo and simpler action
simpler action = caseless is viable
caseless = even lighter ammo
It's a virtuous circle of positive feedback culminating in stabbing your enemies with 20 round bursts of icepicks at 2200RPM.

And if you believe his math, it's revolutionary, because we've seen how much optics boost small arms performance and this improves hit potential almost 4x as much as optics.

>>64285842
Which still isn't magic, 4.5mm MKR, while being able to match M193 Ball in velocity, still has less than half the energy and projectile weight, being able to penetrate a steel helmet doesn't tell you all that much alone.

>>64285222
Heat and cookoff was a problem which H&K and Dynamit Nobel solved.

What they did not solve was the fragility and moisture sensitive nature of the ammunition, as well as the fact that there just isn't any way to achieve proper obturation without some kind of casing, thus inevitably unburned propellant residue seeps out of the action into the receiver with every single shot, accruing over time. You know, a thin film of explosive dust all over the rifle's insides.
Speaking for just the G11, it's an impressive piece of engineering, but it was never all that good of a combat rifle. The Bundeswehr were really dragging their heels on the thing until reunification gave them a great excuse to nix the thing for good, and the U.S Army concluded that the juice really wasn't worth the squeeze either.

The hit chance improvement of the hyperburst over a 5.56mm rifle wasn't really significant, especially not to justify all of the various drawbacks of the weapon system. The results of the ACR Program rather showed that the best thing they could do is to take that optic which Colt showed up with, and just develop that into a standardized piece of equipment for normal existing 5.56mm rifles using normal existing ammunition.

>>64286151
>obturation
That's why Kelgren uses open bolt blowback for this design.

>>64286168
How will that solve obturation?

>>64286177
By making it a non-issue by accepting imperfect seals.

>>64283013
mass effect already did it

>>64283013
>"Lets lend Kelltec our ideas threads" on /k/ where child's play comparing to this.
These threads mostly consist of anons combining obscure actions with obscure cartridges. Few of them realize that Kellgren only uses relatively popular cartridges that make his pre-existing vision possible, and often only imperfectly like with the CP33, PMR-30 and CMR-30, no doubt he would have really liked it if there were widely adopted centerfire equivalents to 22LR and 22 Magnum.
Also, Kellgren has said in the past that he hates non-auto guns like revolvers. He only likes automatics.

>>64286151
>wind up gun
lol. people are retarded.

>>64286213
Why don't you show us your fully sealed caseless hyperburst combat rifle design, anon? You aren't allowed to use computers to make it btw.

>>64286184
That's not a solution.

>>64286213
I never did like that design aspect of it specifically. Adding a non-reciprocating charging lever which you could pull back to turn the chamber would make for far better and simpler handling.
Sure, it would add complexity, but H&K weren't exactly afraid of complexity when they designed the G11.

>>64286238
Whatever happened to all the hype about caseless and telescoped ammo anyways? It was this huge thing in the early 10s then poof, gone down the memory hole.

>>64286408
The government wasn't as enthusiastic for it for whatever reason and the contractor responsible for the project is known for being completely inept at palm-greasing.
I don't think it was memoryholed, people just lose interest. It's really weird how people just completely forgot about Textron when SIG won NGSW though, most normalfags think only TV and Sig participated.

>>64286408
Caseless pretty much died with German Reunification and then the end of the Advanced Combat Rifle program in the U.S, because while Heckler & Koch had developed by far one of the most sophisticated takes imaginable of the concept, it just wasn't worth all of its tradeoffs.
I think that if you ditched the hyperburst gimmick, you could dramatically simplify the G11 and improve the rifle a lot, not solve all of its problems, but some of them, and you could just better play into the theoretical strengths of caseless by making it a bit more conventional overall. That wasn't what ACR and the G11 as a project was about, however.

Now, cased telescopic is another kettle of fish entirely, that's a concept which I think has very genuine legs still, because having a proper cased cartridge is what you want in a combat rifle. Full obturation, durability, mechanical simplicity, ease of maintenance, you really wouldn't have to sacrifice anything which makes conventional metal cased ammunition good (or, at least I can't think of anything, short of maybe environmental concerns).
LSAT unfortunately just sort of deflated though, and ended up getting rolled up into the NGSW circus, which is unbelievably regrettable. Best I know, there hasn't been substantial developments in the cased telescopic stuff which was played with during LSAT, and instead we have... the XM7 and XM250.

On the other hand, there has still remained experimentation with polymer cased variants of existing ammunition, and the results have apparently been very promising, working excellently even up to .50BMG, and this being backwards compatible with existing arms I think would make it a more than acceptable compromise over cased telescopic (which could then maybe be pursued again in the future).

>>64286501
You can't help but be demoralized by how a competition that could have either revolutionized small arms forever or improved upon brass in every way, granting major logistical advantages to just about every firearm in service, ended up almost regressing small arms technology and wasting taxpayer money while doing it. It's just so shitty and dystopian, deflating in one word.
Forgive me for inserting a political comparison, but this is exactly how I felt when I realized what Trump was going to do to Ukraine. It's a bad thing that happened at an even worse time.

>>64286408
Midwits shot their load early loving the german space magic and then overcompensated by saying they were useless; while actual engineers fixed the problems but the bad cultural reputations stayed. Combine with Afghanistan and the boomers' final NGSW push, and add the drone revolution, and people kneejeerked away from real small-arms improvements. The only real ones (and they are good) were EPR bullet designs and optics.

Caseless has a sealing problem; which is not fixable easily in the range of normal actions. You have to choose between an open-bolt SMG style or a multi-threaded artillery style. Kelgren picks the first, above, because high ROF compensates for the accuracy issues of open bolt; but it rules out caseless for an archetypal M4 style rifle with 5mm-7mm bore, 30 rnds and a closed bolt.

Telescoped had the *reputation* for poor accuracy (like caseless' initial overheating rep) and these were fixed by correcting the case head design with a better polymer, which was the historical sticking point. The end-result LSAT CT round bulged like a neck for an instant to seal before cooling/retracting. It worked very well.

The only CT round which was actually fielded was the 40mm CT autocannon shell. Its reputedly high barrel wear was due to high pressures and large propellant volumes for the APFSDS shots, not the CT aspect.

>>64286544
IIRC the only "evidence" for the alleged short barrel life of the 40CT is three dudes on Twitter, one of whom even said that the problem was fixed a long time ago.

>>64286073
Now add modern high pressure ratings to the system and maybe a pseudo-duplex projectile that works like EPR and the results are a warhammer 40k gonzo masterpiece. Power drill size square-drum PDWs spewing 2500 3mm rounds a minute with negligible heat. Add a 3d printed flowthrough suppressor too.

>>64286544
Open bolt is in no way better at dealing with the obturation problem. Nor is it a smaller concern.

>>64286890
You don't understand the basic mechanical concepts you believe you are talking about.

>>64286501
>If you ditched the hyperburst gimmick, you could dramatically simplify the G11

the vbr car was essentially that. It could be improved further by converting it to ct. All it would really need is some provision to clear the chamber

>>64286917
The ARES-Olin AIWS was a thing.

>>64286540
It's kind of a symptom of the modern day corporate excess. Sig Sauer winning a not very well thought out program as the bar-none worst entrant, and then managing to still underdeliver after that, it just fits nicely next to all the enshittification and customer abuse you see from other big tech companies these days.
Paul Verhoeven ended up being uncomfortably prescient on this exact point.

If it's not the people making your new phone or car trying to bend you over and fuck you in the ass, it'll be the people making your new "Next Generation Service Weapon" as an infantryman. Optionally, a given defense contractor fucking John Deering the army for trivial maintenance shit which a half-decent army mechanic would have been able to just do himself 25 years ago.

I think the fact that even the army is getting fucked in the ass in this era of extreme corporate avarice, is actually one of those things which could help all us get some leverage on the rest of the market for all kinds of other things and fight back.

>>64286544
>while actual engineers fixed the problems
How, exactly? How did they fix the inherently very sensitive and fragile nature of a cartridge made out of a block of propellant?
How did they fix the obturation?

>You have to choose between an open-bolt SMG style or a multi-threaded artillery style.
Again, those aren't solutions. Even when an AR15 has carbon slowly build up in the top of the receiver, or a G3 farts it all over the inside of the receiver with every shot, that shit is nothing but carbon and any grunt can just open the gun and deal with it periodically.

Now, if we skip the hyperburst then we can make the G11 a much simpler rifle which a soldier could actually open up and do basic service on, but he still has a bunch of unburnt powder residue all over the inside of the gun.

>>64286908
Either the breech is locked, delayed, or unlocked, the gun firing from a closed or open bolt position is a separate aspect from this, and it doesn't really affect obturation. If the cartridge is chambered and fired, the action is currently closed, but if there's no case to act as an obturator, you're really not achieving it.

Open bolt won't make the unsealed gaps disappear.

>>64286908
I do.
You don't understand the basic mechanical concepts you believe you are talking about.

>>64286917
If it's changed to CT, then it's pretty much a different gun entirely IMO.
Might as well do a more conventional action and weapon if you're going to do CT, you can outright reinvent the M4A1, M249, and M240L, but as CT weapons, and they can behave and handle pretty much the same.

>>64286446
I think that we will see CT again eventually, even if from different people, and even if not soon, the concept is too solid to not eventually explore.

>>64282840 (OP)
>Elementary blowback
ToT

>>64287182
>you can outright reinvent the M4A1, M249, and M240L, but as CT weapons, and they can behave and handle pretty much the same.
You can't, since adding an extractor groove to a CT case completely eliminates its advantages. It would be easy to make a CT G11, it would just push the fired case out there bottom when it feeds. The G11's rotating chamber is inherently complex though, it needs clockwork to pause the rotation to feed a round. The rising chamber design used in the CT ACRs is far simpler.

>>64285822
>I imagine it was probably a lot closer to the P90 and MP7,
Internal ballistics wise they are close indeed.
1.7 gram bullet from 180mm MP7 barrel is 725m/s.
1.6 gram bullet 4.5x26R from 180mm barrel is 700 m/s or so (1000m/s from ridiculously long 625mm MKR barrel, bullpup advantage says hi).
So energy wise these indeed are close rounds.
But then difference starts.
Due to insanely aerodynamicly streamlined bullet (record low form factor for guns made in metal) 4.5x26R 1.6 gram bullet has G1 BC if 0.245, 68% higher than 0.145 G1 BC of heavier 2 grams DM31 4.6x30mm bullet.
Also due to lightweight case technology (yes rimfire case is more than two time lighter than conventional case) 4.5x26R round weights only 3.6 grams, while 4.6x30 DM31 weights 6 grams.
4.5x26R totally kicks 4.6x30 ass.

>>64287182
Polymer case is a solid concept but honestly the bullet placement and push through/pivoting chamber ejection just isn't optimal. The whole forwards portion is just wasted space.
What we need is a rear extracting complete polymer case that is similar to brass cases but just made out of plastic.
The extractor must simply be designed to be large so that it doesn't destroy a plastic rim.

>>64286446
>It's really weird how people just completely forgot about Textron when SIG won NGSW though, most normalfags think only TV and Sig participated.
People also like to forget that TV's entry wasn't TV's, it was General Dynamics for the entire development cycle. TV bought it out when GD quit, right around the same time Textron did.

>>64287200
>4.5x26R totally kicks 4.6x30 ass
That's a very meager bar to clear, and you're still stuck with fucking rimfire.

>>64285222
>>64285139
If you compare Kellgrens theoretical work and practical implementation (MKR rifle) he tonned down his ideas. Caseless RAP round he couldn't produce, he ain't Dynamite Nobel. So he settled to "just" low drag bullet and lightweight case. Still even with downgrade to ghetto tech his round absolutely has no equals in effeciency comparing to existing ammunition, see comparison with 4.6x30 above.
Instead of rearranging performance withing existing ammunition limits he completely broke through these limits with his 4.6x26R. however cringe rimless metal case sounds it provided better weight savings than any lightweight cases (plastic, plastic telescoping, etc) of the year 2025.

>>64287239
>of the year 2025.
Did you mean 1995? Or are you seriously comparing full power cartridges to a necked down .22 Magnum?

>>64287234
You thinking "bigger is better". For semi automatic gun it may be somewhat true, you end with NGSW M7 using this line of thinking.
But for automatic gun bigger just means more recoil and less accurate and effective automatic fire. For cartridges made for automatic gun like MP7 4.6x26R is just much better in everything.

>>64287247
1.1 grams case mass vs 2.4 grams equivalent center fire brass case. 45% weight.
Year 2025 plastic cases are 50% weight of the equivalent brass center fire case.
It's little crazy how this ghetto tech kicks LSAT ass made by multibillion defense corporation.

>>64287239
About RAPs I should add that they also politically unacceptable.
Sweden was pushing ideas to ban American 5.56 round as inhuman because if it's fragmentation.
RAP rounds with sustaining motor like Kellgren suggested fired at close range would have their motor burning inside targets body. No way it would fly with Sweden government.

So even if they provided ballistic advantage this way was completely closed to him if he made rifle for Sweden military by politics.
Still sustained motor RAPs are very curious, besides more effecient ballistics for one thing they don't have wind drift when motor is working. And wind drift wlia most difficult thing to account during aiming especially for infantry rifle without elaborate fire control system.

>>64287255
Non-sequitur and false dichotomy. Regarding the 4.6x26mmR and 4.6x30mm as underpowered and meek from an infantry rifle perspective, is in no way the same as arguing for going back to battle rifles.
5.56x45mm (and 5.45x39mm) is literally THE perfect power balance for an infantry rifle, there is no other sensible option for the U.S Army but trashing the NGSW program and sticking with 5.56mm

Both the M4A1 and the AK74M have:
>very flat trajectories and good effective range
>close to no felt recoil at all, these are very easy weapons to shoot and control
>lightweight ammunition where you can easily carry 240rds or 300rds in aluminum or synthetic magazines
>very strong terminal ballistics, both 5.56mm and 5.45mm will make entrywounds the size of a fist at CQB ranges

Future improvements to me would in the immediate sense be to move over to even lighter weight polymer cased ammunition for these cartridges, and at some later future point a cased telescopic copy of the 5.56mm.

>>64287288
>Sweden was pushing ideas to ban American 5.56 round as inhuman because if it's fragmentation.
Unsurprising, but it sounds like the typical liberal demsoc virtue signalling noise, and which couldn't really amount to anything, because it was immediately at odds with reality on its face, and Sweden was essentially a secret NATO member during the Cold War, NATO wouldn't have allowed it.

>RAP rounds with sustaining motor like Kellgren suggested
Ok, I need to stop procrastinating and read this paper, I love fucking this madman.

>>64287192
>You can't, since adding an extractor groove to a CT case completely eliminates its advantages.
Would it actually have to? You could easily still have significant weight and bulk savings with just the mere case head and its extractor groove being an aluminum or brass alloy for the sake of an extractor, the rest of the case being polymer and telescoped is still there.

>>64287342
>I love fucking this madman.
Oh man, that's an excellent typo to make.

>>64287134
the explanation is quite simple

>>64287165
ACR, LSAT and NGSW patents show that obturation with telescoped cases has been solved (looks like?) for a while now

>>64287206
Textron patented a bullpup CT rifle that ejects backwards. They also patented conventional rifles that feed backwards. The ejection port was located above the shooting hand.

Stoner and ARES patented a forward eject system for telescoped ammo too.

Will upload pics asap

>>64287377
That doesn't mean anything, patents can make all kinds of claims which aren't necessarily reflected in reality.

>>64287288
>Sweden was pushing ideas to ban American 5.56 round as inhuman because if it's fragmentation.
Source? I've never heard of this before.
Strikes me as very strange if this happened in the 70s, because the Swedish army was already in the process of testing various 5.56NATO rifles to replace the old G3s as the Swedish army's new standard service rifles in the mid 1970s.

>>64287380
they even patented a dual feed mag+belt fed carbine. Never forgive them for what NGSW took from us

>>64287380
>>64287389
same telescoped chamber and bullet as the steyr acr but with forward eject, like in a desert tech mdr.

>>64287380
>>64287389
>>64287398

>>64287182
imo the best way to get ct to take off is to get a toehold in the civilian market. Needs to be something cheap, accessible, and performant from a bigger name manufacturer. A ruger blackhawk with an added front recoil shield to stop the rounds falling out plus supersonic 300 blackoutish ct round. A carbine could also be an option since the obturator should be able to seal the cylinder gap

>>64287380
>>64287389
>>64287398
>>64287404
Textron patented a CT case with a tapered cap at the front that mimics the shoulder of a normal bullet to make it usable with normal feed and extraction systems (with some modifications).

Ultimately though you miss out on many CT benefits so it makes sense why it wasn't implemented. At that point just make a normal bullet with different materials.

>>64287410
CT will only take off if there is an urgent need for maximum combat load AND with strict weight limits that can only be achieved by CT. Otherwise you will only see slight modifications to conventional bullets.

>>64287386
>Source? I've never heard of this before.
I've never heard of it either, but it would not surprised if there was some angry and retarded noise about it from the socialists and communists because of Vietnam.
We had it pretty damn bad with Communist sympathizers here during the Cold War, like the Left Party celebrating in the streets when the Khmer Rogue took the Cambodian capital.

>>64287165
>all over the inside of the gun
Look at a picture of an open-bolt system like an Uzi. You don't care about the gaps and powder residue because you're not pumping it into a confined environment like a german autist farting under the covers.

>>64287384
LSAT repeatably proved CT sealing with over 100k rounds, obturation-seether. I suggest you read some of the interviews and documentation.

>>64287430
Political resistance to non-ocepicking bullets is bizarre Euro quirk which has died down significantly in the last 15 years, but still hangs around today.

>>64287476
>Look at a picture of an open-bolt system like an Uzi.
1. The Uzi will in fact obturate, because there's a (usually brass) casing inside of its chamber when it's firing, even with advanced primer ignition there is still obturation happening.

2. Open bolt does not really change anything at all about this.

3. The amount of potential unburnt powder reside (which, mind, is not going to be same kind as used for the G11's caseless cartridges), is going to be completely negligible, and it's virtually all carbon.

>>64287476
Actually, I completely misinterpreted your previous post about cased telescoped ammunition.

Yes, I would 100% believe that they were able to achieve efficient obturation, there are many different plastics and other synthetic materials which would have the right strength and ductility to do basically the same thing as brass. Aside from decades of plastics being used for shotgun shells commercially, I have seen some cool 3D printed casings which provided good obturation.

I do however stand by the statement that claims in a patent do not have to mean anything in real life, you can genuinely just go and patent completely batshit nonsense. Pic related.

>>64287342
>>close to no felt recoil at all, these are very easy weapons to shoot and control
This is why US mil doctrine teaches to use 5.56 rifles as semiautomatic weapons, yeah. Also all tests made by US mil (including ACR program) revealed that 5.56 rifles automatic fire aren't effective (aka burst doesn't increase hit probability over single shot).

>as underpowered and meek from an infantry rifle perspective,
Fun fact: literally nobody complained about lack of stopping power of PPSH SMG, while it's even more meek (600 joules of muzzle energy vs 800 and round nose bullet that produces nothing but icepick wounds). Bullet hose goes brrrrrrrrt.

>>64287386
>Source
https://ndia.dtic.mil/wp-content/uploads/2010/armament/TuesdayLandmarkBHaysParks.pdf

>>64287506
>This is why US mil doctrine teaches to use 5.56 rifles as semiautomatic weapons, yeah.
Because 8 times out of 10 you don't need automatic fire in an infantry rifle. Breaking contact is however a very real thing, and you really want full-auto for that, and not burst, proper full-auto.

>(aka burst doesn't increase hit probability over single shot).
Burst in something like the M16 isn't going to improve hit probability, no, it's just a really shitty and janky approach to its original full-auto function.

If you look at what they were trying to do with Project Salvo, SPIW, and ACR, it was to maximize the amount of projectiles in the air, and ideally before the recoil impulse could disrupt the shooter's aim. The notion was to increase the odds of the soldier scoring a hit, and this did sort of work, these various ammunition types and weapons would in fact improve hit probability to various degrees, but it came with many downsides.

>Fun fact: literally nobody complained about lack of stopping power of PPSH SMG
Because it's a fucking subgun which was used for CQB fighting, often in urban environments.
Also that's certainly not true, the M43 7.62x39mm cartridge was very much intended to make for the better subgun by giving it more range and power than a pistol cartridge, but without the weight and recoil of the full rifle cartridge.

>>64287574
>Because it's a fucking subgun which was used for CQB fighting, often in urban environments.
Where stopping power is mostly desired and actually observed. And literally nobody complained about PPSH's funny underpowered bullets effects on target. They complained about range, sure but not about it's power.

>Because 8 times out of 10 you don't need automatic fire in an infantry rifle
I don't have file at hand so look it up yourself. but US mil current rifle FM literally states that semi automatic fire is superior to automatic in all criterias (time to hit, hits per time) beyond 25 meters. Nice "controllable no recoil" rifle you got here.

>>64282840 (OP)
anons what's the catch here? seems like a great improvement for little added complexity all things considered.

>>64287624
>in all criterias
You're not shooting to kill or even hit when breaking contact.

>Nice "controllable no recoil" rifle you got here.
Recoil is in fact still a thing in semi-automatic fire, and semi-automatic fire is even done rapidly in a military setting.