Thread 64347635

Didn't need replacing

>>64347635 (OP)
That stupid torii gate patch on his helmets makes me want to shoot it

>>64347687
Why

>>64347635 (OP)
We'll use it for the moon deployment

>>64347635 (OP)
But we need 100+ grain bullets(according to the Army)

just give it an update with a more modern rail and accessories package. hell they could even introduce a two upper kit for all combat arms units with a full rifle length upper and a more compact upper with a midlength gas system and still come out cheaper than the M7.

>>64347635 (OP)
youre gol dern right

>>64347635 (OP)
US Army always prepares for the last war it fought

>could have done a ACR/XCR in Sneedmore
sadge

>>64347742
A Rakkasan fucked his gf

>>64348889
But duuuuude think how cool .277 FURY sounds..

>>64347635 (OP)
Correct, honestly. It’s hard to get much better than the M4 for general use.

>>64347635 (OP)
This is, unironically, where the M4A1 peaked.
The workhorse of SOF throughout the majority of the GWOT. From CENTCOM/AFRICOM, and even a few lesser known hits in PACCOM, this bad boy and its Mk.18 little brother put the work in.
Rugged, reliable, and accurate. No frills, no bells or whistles. Just performance.
>urgi a shit for zoomies

The AR15 platform is.. KING

>>64348975
>mk.18
fellow 10.3" believer.

They could have just gone with a smaller Ar10 platform like the Ruger SFAR.

>>64347783
>more rail
literally why? all you need is a white light on one side, an ir laser on top, and maybe a foregrip on the bottom if that's your preference. a 6" rail is perfectly adequate for that

>>64349131
>Ruger SFAR
how 'bout no

>>64348975
Why no mags?

>>64347635 (OP)
It needs Knox Engineering propellant in straightwalled cases for 50rnd mags and 3500fps MV.

>>64349406
dry run

>>64347635 (OP)
Well yes, and Ukraine proves it. Explosives and fragmentation are king in an actual war, and even with optics, you're mostly going to be shooting people under 200m away.

Unfortunately, the escorts SIG brought to the party with the generals give the sloppiest of toppy, so here we are now.

>>64349150
A more modern handguard is what I meant. Ditch the full length quad rail, even on shorter rifle and move to a more modern, lighter weight option.

>>64349508
>the escorts SIG brought to the party with the generals give the sloppiest of toppy
I'm not sure i could stand up to that level of torture either, cut the generals some slack

>>64349150
>a 6" rail is perfectly adequate for that
No it's not. Cramming all that shit on a 6" rail sucks, and having your IR laser on a non FF rail is fucking retarded. You can't even cope that it's cheap since they're getting this made by KAC. They're paying modern FF rail prices for junk from 30 years ago.

>>64349079
This.

>>64347635 (OP)
no one is suggesting it will be replaced

>>64347635 (OP)
Its a great rifle. It does just fine killing turd worlders. Only thing that could make even better would be a underslung 1911 on it

>>64350372
>no one is suggesting it will be replaced
The US Army is replacing it.

>>64350419
nah that was just a joke theyre keeping m4

>>64347635 (OP)
Mogged hard by 6.5 creedmoor

>>64350544
Not in a high volume of use role
Even as a bolt gun, the round life of the barrel is on the short end

>>64348975
URGI is better and anything else is neoboomer delusion

>>64350766
Spoken like a true DYEL with the grip strength of a toddler.

>>64347635 (OP)
They all need to be gold plated, with an image of Trump stamped on the side, shouting "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT".

>>64350767
spoken like someone who has no arguments and relies on boomer machismo

>>64349436
Why not train as you fight?

>>64350419
They've been replacing it for 40 years.

>>64347635 (OP)
It doesn't have enough range. A caveman with an AK can hit you and you can't hit him back without moving closer. This is obviously a problem.

>>64350834
>range
>AK
are you retarded

>>64347635 (OP)
MIC needs to sell new weapons, M16/M4 needs to go.

>>64347635 (OP)
Don't fret.
When we invade Afghanistan to retake Bagram.
We will finally have the rifle we need for fighting in Afghanistan.

>>64347635 (OP)
It did. But not with the abomination they're replacing it with.

>>64349131
Do they still have gassing issues?

>>64347635 (OP)
Stupid small child gun

>>64350802
You rehearse with dry runs before you use blanks or live rounds to prevent accidents.

>>64349150
yeah fuck night optics

Should’ve been replaced by something in 6.5 Grendel

>>64352007
>only 26 rounds in a mag

Fuck the M4 we should use M-16's.

>>64347635 (OP)
Nah it really didn't. There are a billion solutions for caliber issues. 6.8spc was a great close range solution for sf. 25-45 sharps works as well. 5.56 works OK. In the same way that any tool you ask to do 100 jobs to do does. The best part of the AR design is the ability to swap uppers and have a new solutions to the issue.
Unit issued mission dependent uppers make more sense than tossing the platform out.
>>logistics
Cut it out at this point. Its really a non issue at this point.

>>64347635 (OP)
Based. I miss this vibe

>>64352072
Robots are already being integrated into units. This is the military preparing supply chains for the next decades when units will be mostly robotic and using much heavier calibers because they don't care about weight. With incoming threats from drones and other robots they will need longer range flatter shooting cartridges with higher armor piercing capabilities.
Everyone is stuck in the Vietnam, iraq and Afghanistan when we are quickly entering AI robotic swarm combat. Military industrial complex obviously knows this and needs the basics ironed out so development on these new technologies has time to grow. Ngsw program shows they've also been trying to build an auto targeting optic that electronically communicates with the rifle. The first stepping stone to building a robotic targeting system that is interconnected with the squads weapons.

>>64352007
6.5 Grendel/6.8 SPC are the most mediocre rifle cartridges in existence. They're worse than 5.56 within real-world distances because they don't have a laserbeam trajectory. "Muh .308 performance" is a massive meme because .308 SUCKS. 6mm and .22 ARC are a godsend. They're so much better, not quite good enough to justify the cost of replacing every 5.56 gun in existence but at least not as many armchair reformers will shill for a cartridge concept that's literally worse.

>>64347635 (OP)
*gets path blocked by basic armor in your path*

>>64352371
t. Dunning Kruger

>>64352371
Dirty legs don't need to shoot 300 meters. There are other tools for that. Legs need to do urban combat and movement. In movement you engage a close encounter, bound back from a long range attack.
There is a reason SF went looking and used the 6.8spc. The kinds of close engagements war has been evolving towards for decades require something that hits harder close. As we have already done this in trenches we know what works. A .45 and a 6.8spc, 25-45 sharps, or any of the other thumper will work better than 5.56. 5.56 is a drop them, then drop the aid when it comes round. Those days are also numbered. Ukraine is a shit show because the game is changing.

>>64347635 (OP)
Unironically mogged by a 16" PSA AR

>>64352396
Try to refute even a single one of my arguments. Pro tip: You can't. You form incredibly intransigent opinions based on nothing but feelings and dumb trends.
>>64352442
People also shilled 6.5/6.8 for the general purpose cartridge concept, which I don't mind per se, but I vehemently oppose 6.5/6.8 for that role.
I think the stoppan powah meme has been thoroughly addressed at this point by damn near every government and non-government entity in existence. 5.56 is good enough for CQB, any cartridge that "wounds" 5% "better" also weighs 50% more and recoils 100% harder. The M855A1 EPR also solved the issues of short barrel performance and allegedly also barrier blindness and wounding consistency.

Ukraine taught us nothing new about infantry guns, it only reinforced the Cold War axioms that you only use small arms when it's too late to use anything else, so most gunfighting is done up close, and that you cannot have too much ammo.

>>64350795
It's not machismo, you genuinely don't realize how weak you are and have become dependent on everything being scaled down to accommodate your delicate, feminine, weak hands.
Grip the rail and stop crying.

>>64352459
Unironically mogged by an 11.5" PSA
>Just imagine the frogpic ok

>>64352243
use M-lok accessories, retard

>>64352620
so that's why the Army is introducing a retarded 13" boomer musket?

>>64352522
>>5.56 is good enough
Its not. If the job is to reliably wound, then yes. But reliably wounding isn't a great metric. Reliably killing with a quicker fainting time is the metric any modern military should be using. QCB and long range is where the 5.56 failed in combat and no Virginia there is no Santa clause. It still falls short. No bullet design will fix that.
This can be seen as a terminal ballistic exercise on the hunting side. The absolute best the 5.56 can do is still very minimal on a deer sized animal. That is with optimal shot placement. The 6.8 in its better clothing, the 270 Winchester 130g absolutely makes a mess of the same animal. It is a known deer anchor. See the math may show small percentage gains, but the feild testing over decades shows a very significant improvement in terminal performance.
The 6.8 spc is an up close and personal package. The 277 fury is a 270 over 5.56 on deer improvement for the military. However I would argue the application, specifically the rifle is a shit show.
If they had chosen the AR10 package in 277 fury for troops in areas of lr possibility as well as bravo replacement in the same chambering, and the ar15/m4 package for troops everywhere else in a 6.8spc2 or 25-45 sharps it would have made more sense.
>>Ukraine has taught us nothing
Drones have made air superiority questionable even when fighting a poor. It has taught us naval superiority is questionable even when fighting a poor. Technology adoption and evolution moves fast and levels the playing feild. And when a poor adoption Technology, it acted like two supers and set war back to trench warfare.

>>64352262
Retard

>>64350547
>short end
6.5 is middle of the road for barrel life
you have no idea how bad things can get for autistic PRS calibers and giga nigga magnums

>>64352705
No, that's because half of the leadership in the DoD have significant stock in SIGN.

>>64352745
>If the job is to reliably wound, then yes.
lol, imagine being a know-nothing retard spouting an entirely uneducated opinion as fact. lmao

Dr. Fackler disproved this fudd fantasy decades ago and conducted probably the most extensive terminal ballistics research using live pigs as well as inventing the very same modern ballistics gel used to test ammunition today.
https://battlebornreview.com/5-56-ammunition-part-ii/
His conclusion was anything but in line with yours, you might as well be in here saying other dumb fudd myths like .30 carbine being stopped by frozen clothing.

We honestly need some sort of vetting process on this board. This was an argument we were having here 15 years ago that was settled, and now an entire generation of gen z redditors are still saying the same dumb shit.

>>64352745
Honestly anon, I don't know what to tell you. This conversation has been unnecessarily had a million times already and has been answered beyond all reasonable doubt, it's borderline unfashionable to talk about it at this point. For rifle rounds, projectile design matters far more for terminal ballistics than increasing or decreasing the bullet's diamter by a tenth of an inch or changing its weight by 20 grains. Velocity, on the other hand, matters far more, and this is where cartridges like 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC chose to compromise. 5.56 is good enough in that the gains you'll get from switching to anything else are negligible compared to how much internal (barrel length) and external ballistics (trajectory) and ergonomic factors like recoil and weight would suffer. Actually, scratch that, they're negligible against humans even in a vacuum.
>>64352981
Yup.

>>64347635 (OP)
true
it was all downhill from there
like everything else about reality

>>64352745
>Bullet design doesn't matter!
>Designed to wound!
>Barely works on deer!
Oh no, retard-kun it looks like you attempted a hot take but skipped your required reading, making you look like a fucking idiot instead! Go take a look at the .223 for elk/bear/moose thread on rokslide and unfuck yourself

>>64352745
>Drones have made air superiority questionable even when fighting a poor. It has taught us naval superiority is questionable even when fighting a poor. Technology adoption and evolution moves fast and levels the playing feild. And when a poor adoption Technology, it acted like two supers and set war back to trench warfare.
Or, Occam's razor: Russia is a Global Southern kleptocracy with nukes, like Pakistan or South Africa. But this is irrelevant beyond the fact that they're too poor to afford optics on their guns.

We hit peak infantry rifle with the M4.

>>64353105
223 is minimal on deer. And works just fine with good shot placement. However outside optimal it fails often and spectacularly.
Its pretty obvious you are speaking from a theoretical position as you don't have what experience gives.

>>64352981
Wait until you find out at what depths human organs are at and how the bullet performs at distance...

>>64353324
>However outside optimal it fails often and spectacularly.
>Translates to: I miss or gut shot everything and then blame the caliber.
I've seen people like you all my life swear they nailed a mule or white tail through the shoulders with a 30-30 or 30-06, only to find it a couple hours later shot square through the stomach. Assuming they find it at all.
>>64353330
>b-b-but ballistic gel is nothing like a human body!
Congratulations, you missed the entire point of establishing a controlled scientific testing medium that can account for variables in soft and hard tissues.
Guess all those big fancy bullet companies and ballistics research papers should've educated themselves on youtube and reddit like you.

>>64353324
It's obvious you're fucking retarded. That thread is literally filled with photographic proof of how fuck stupid you are, along with a stream of similarly retarded people chiming in there saying the exact same stupid shit because they didn't even look at it before their smooth brain directed that they regurgitate out some uninformed opinion. Read a book nigger.

>>64353512
Are you all done arguing straw men? Or do you need another couple minutes sweetie?
If you are we can take your issues one at a time.
Gel, is for testing one bullet against another in a controlled medium. Thats it. One can extrapolate that more is more but without testing on live tissues with varying stretch capacities wounding is unknown. A 4 inch permanent wound cavity that starts at 5 inches in gel does not translate to the same on live tissues. As we see in the feild...

>>64352681
>buying the cure
ngmi

>>64353636
>buying outdated shit to feel "cool and unique"
Go back to riding horses

>>64352981
130g 270 Winchester. See the fucking difference now faggot? 5.56 minimal. 270, fucking DRT. Dead right the fuck there. Fucking dunning motherfucking retarded zoomer faggot fucksack

>>64353512
At 3.5 inches the 5.56 has already expended a majority of its energy. It is traveling on momentum at that point for the most part.
At 3.5 inches the 270 Winchester hasn't even created the biggest portion of its wound channel yet by both diameter and volume. That happens over the NEXT 4 inches where the 5.56 is just traveling through like a pistol bullet.
This is why the 5.56 is considered minimal. Because with a less than ideal entrance angle, bone, ect it might not have enough energy to reach the vital organs with authority.
While the 270 Winchester will.
Considering we are using hunting as the field test for the bullet ability but the conversion is war,
5.56 is minimal. 270 is a significant improvement. Fuck of child.

>>64353597
>does not translate to the same on live tissues. As we see in the feild...
>feild
You are a hopelessly retarded nigger.
>>64353661
Congratulations, you just halved your combat load of ammunition due to weight, cut your barrel life in half due to increased velocity, and reduced your firepower from the fire team all the way to platoon level.
If you were going to go full retard and ignore project SALVO you could have just saved yourself a lot of time in R&D and started issuing M14s and 7.62 again.
Dipshit.

>>64353661
retard

>>64353707
>SALVO

Yeah, it’s funny how people have forgotten we studied the biggest combat sample size in the history of warfare and concluded that more bullet is better than big bullet.

Caliber fags need to be hanged.

>>64353653
>pic rail = riding a horse
>mlok = petting zoo

>>64353707
Ah, are we coming to those conclusions that gunners and riflemen are all shooting the same round? That we are eliminating the saw in favor of a utilitarian design that fills all rolls and the round will also be used on crew served.
Perhaps the lesson we learned in Afghanistan was that volume of fire when you cannot reach reliably the people shooting at you is not a good SOP. I know you think you are wicked smart but honestly you are coming across quite the opposite.
You count losses, I will count gains.
Significant ballistics performance increase. Terminal and external.
Significant increase of Terminal ballistic effectiveness on "soft targets". At all ranges including long range.
Significant increase in armor defeating capabilities including advanced modern body armor.
The 240b can and has been in some numbers converted to 277.
Sniper systems that have a 7.62 (308) or 30-06 (300win mag) bolt throw can be converted to 277.
Literally everything in the Army other than specialty snipers, and the m2 that shoots a bullet will be firing the 277.
Its a logistical wet dream.

>>64350867
kek this

300 blk and bayonets fuck em.
They know what they signed up for.

>>64354152
>Its a logistical wet dream.
Yeah, too bad it's a shit infantry cartridge. A general purpose rifle and MG cartridge should be something like 22 ARC but higher pressure and in lighter cases, with a cartridge like .338 taking up the slack against the rarer harder-skinned targets and 800+ yd use.
Armor penetration is a meme. And you can't reliably defeat entrenched snipers and machine gunners without fire support of some kind. This is not up for debate.

>>64352745
>verbose nonsense
>fantasy theorycrafting
Anon, we have plenty of videos of 5.56 quickly killing people at the sub-300m range it was designed for. Same for 5.45.
There's zero practical needs for bigger rounds unless you're a Sig shareholder.

>>64353786
>we studied the biggest combat sample size in the history of warfare and concluded that more bullet is better than big bullet.
say what you will about the soviets, but they did acknowledge the small arms lessons of WW2 with the AK/SVD/PKM/RPG combo. Meanwhile the US is still trying to make their autistic and retarded one-shot-one-kill bs work despite all facts and war experiences against it.

>>64356135
>AK/SVD/PKM/RPG combo
There's some merit to the logistical wet dream of using the same caliber for the first three.
But that's not what the Sig scam is about

So uh, what will the cartridge of the future be? I have no idea how bullets are going to squeeze more power or what constraints they consider when designing one.
t. no-guns (for now)

>>64356257
Unfortunately, small arms development and acquisition is driven mostly by politics, that is, corruption and the opinions of a very select group of severely underqualified and uninformed individuals. This has been demonstrated many times already. The small caliber, high velocity (SCHV) concept was opposed by most of the brass during the fifties, and only ultimately resulted in the adoption of the M16 due to SECDEF McNamara forcing it on them after much drama and the M14's disgraceful showing in Vietnam.
This means that we have to define what "future" means. Since the people in charge very rarely make good decisions in this field, and the common people and soldiers cannot effect change on their own, what happens is that they will try to force bad ideas through from up top only to get shot down by the guys who will risk their lives using them. This means that practical progress will be *exceedingly* slow if at all possible, even with academic side of materials science and doctrinal research continuing despite underinvestment.
The technology for the cartridge and weapon of the future is already here. In fact, we've probably regressed in experimental small arms technology since the 1970s-80s. By just picking up where programs like the ACR left off, you can make highly "futuristic" guns with incredible advantages over the 60s++ guns we're using today, and the only real reasons not to use them will be political (corruption) or ideological (aggressive ignorance or Luddism).

>>64348877
that really isnt true
the US army was futurist to a fault in the cold war, spending a massive amount of money on unproven technology

sometimes this paid off big time, like PGMs
but other times, they were absolute flops, they bet hard on GL-ATGMs and all they had to show for it was the M551

>>64356257
>>64356296
In essence, the gun of the next century or half century could just end up being an M4 with different furniture and perhaps a different but very similarly performing cartridge. We've reached the practical limits of what can be done with the 60s technology that is being used today, and are only just now breaking new ground with higher pressure bimetallic cartridges, but also took two steps back by reverting to the asinine one-shot-one-kill at 800 yards idea of yore. The M16 and M4 equipped with the ACOG or VCOG and loaded with M855A1 is likely the greatest service rifle in history, all because of a realistic interpretation of real world data done way back in the 50s! I mean to say that guns are a solved problem. We know what's good, we only lack the (1) political will and sometimes (2) inexpensive materials necessary to apply it.
The reality of gunfighting has not changed much since then. You still need an inexpensive, lightweight, and highly flexible way of suppressing and killing people that are too close for PGMs, so the cartridge of the future will likely have a muzzle energy very similar to that of 5.56.

>>64353324
>if you shoot them in the right spot they die
Any other grand epiphanies, you fucking retard?
Picrel is a deer heart I shot with 5.56. It walked <10 feet and dropped. It’s a great hunting round.

>>64356366
>breaking new ground with higher pressure bimetallic cartridges
a retarded dead end and a scam when TV-style plastic cased ammo offers the same performance for less pressure, wear, cost, and weight. Their only cons are ecological.

>>64356257
>>64356366
People have been arguing about this for ages. There have probably been millions of forum posts about this topic. Hundreds of articles and books have been written and hundreds if not thousands of careers were made by this idea, so I encourage you to look into the topic yourself and come to your own conclusions. But I will offer my opinion, disregarding politics and the economic aspect of having to replace every firearm in service:

There are two ways of improving upon the doctrine of 5.56 in my opinion. The first is that of caliber consolidation and the general purpose cartridge. In essence, the user will carry a comparable amount of ammunition, but will have more range. This will not be useful for the average warfighter, but will be felt by machine gunners and marksmen. The machine gunner in an M240B equivalent role will be able to carry as much ammunition as SAW gunners. This will also free up logistical overhead for heavier cartridges in the .338 Norma/Lapua Magnum power class being used by light infantry. This is basically Jim Schatz's idea, but he wasn't ambitious enough and made the all-too-common mistake of assuming all soldiers are marksmen. The Army extrapolated his errors in the NGSW program and came up with an even worse solution.
The new cartridge should have:
>a bullet diameter of 5.56 to 6.2 mm.
>a long aerodynamic bullet made of very light materials, like an aluminum core with a copper jacket, keeping it around 77-90 grains.
>a muzzle velocity of no less than 3000 feet per second.
>higher pressures.
>this will end up being slightly heavier than 5.56 in a conventional case, so employ weight reduction measures to make it the same weight or lighter. More on this later.
cont.
>>64356395
I like all of these technologies, Sig's the least, but that appears to be the Army's baby and the one that competitors will seek to imitate. If it gets us out of sub-60,000 psi purgatory, so be it.

>>64356395
TV style polymer is a good step forward too, but high pressure isn't something bad to be avoided. It's a linear increase in efficiency. 25% higher pressure = 25% better performance from the same amount of the same gunpowder in the same barrel.

>>64356479
>a muzzle velocity of no less than 3000 feet per second.
>higher pressures.
The Army should just go for 16.5 barrel
Cease with CQB L33T retardation for your average grunt

>>64356479
The other solution is that of firepower and increased efficiency over 5.56.
The performance of 5.56 at typical engagement ranges is satisfactory, especially with a few heavier guns around. However, 5.56 is a rather inefficient cartridge. It was not made with our modern (70s) understanding of external ballistics in mind. By designing it around a more aerodynamic projectile, we can make it less powerful (= lower recoil, lighter weight) but still essentially equal energetically at 100 or so yards.
This was the premise of experimental cartridges like 5.56x38mm FABRL.
By employing even more weight reduction measures, we can end up with a cartridge around half the weight of brass-cased 5.56. Half the weight means twice as much ammo, and you can never have too much ammo.
>4.6-5.56mm
>again, a very light for caliber and length bullet, but around 30-40 gr this time.
>around 3000 fps
>higher pressures (75,000 psi)
>weight reduction

For both of these concepts, I endorse polymer cased telescoped ammunition technology, which was revived by the LSAT program and subsequently killed by the NGSW. I truly believe it's the way forward. Much lighter weight, better reliability, unparalleled temperature resistance (allowing for closed bolt machine guns), higher pressures up to 100,000 psi, cheaper manufacturing, and new weapon form factors are just some of its selling points. A gun in our second cartridge with a CT case might have an MP7-like form factor with a magazine in the grip because of how short its cartridges would be.

>>64352377
How many of America's potential enemies have access to body armor?

>>64356520
I don't mind slightly longer barrels, I'm more of a weight guy. But since Western militaries will likely move to 24/7 suppression in the near future, it's nice to have, especially for vehicles.
It's not far-fetched either. 62gr M855A1 does ~3000 fps out of an M4 with what are now considered conservative pressures. Fuck, what a beast of a round. Anyway, it's not too crazy to imagine the first concept doing 3000 fps with an 82 gr out of a 16" barrel and the second gun getting those velocities with something ridiculous like 10 inches.

>>64356514
Plastic machinegun links are another overlooked weight saving point. Standard steel links are 2 grams each. Plastic ones are .5 grams.

>>64348975
>No frills, no bells or whistles.
This is the opposite of a quad rail. The picatinny slots you add covers to or never use are the frills, while the ones you do use are for bells and whistles.

>>64356553
over 340 million

>>64356479
>>64356526
>2000 rounds of barrel life for the 277 fury
>yeah let's make it even hotter, with even less bore diameter

>>64356701
>he doesn't know about PVD
Vapor deposition is a new way to economically mass-produce barrels with liner coatings that double or triple barrel life for basically free. The US Navy has bought it for their next block of naval 5" gun barrels. Plus there are the old 1990s standbys like tantalum welding and WW2 era ones like stellite liners.

>>64356718
Call me when this is used in firearms.

>>64356701
this >>64356718 and I don't think the 30-40gr projectile would need 75kpsi to hit 3,000 ft/s anyway, you would only need that for like 8" barrels, which while cool isn't practical for a high volume of fire concept

>>64347687
My bitch is from ryukyu

>>64356742
It already is, you luddite fudd: on the outside. PVD is one of the standard ways to do coatings. It just hasn't been used on the inside of barrels until now.

>>64356774
Then why doesn't the army use it?
And the marines?
And SOCOM?

>>64356804
Because military procurement and bureaucracy is a slog. Is that your big cope? 'Nooooo, you can't discuss weapons technology because I don't believe the government is slow so COTS tech must be fake'?

How do you breath at night?

>>64356832
>my new technology is great, nobody wants to use because... they are dumb!!!
woah

>>64353897
sorry we aren't talking about Ukraine yurotard

>>64356804
They've used nothing but expensive civilian shit for the last 20+ years. The most revolutionary small arms related thing SOCOM has done in recent memory is adopting 6.5 Creedmoor. There is very little top-down sponsored innovation in the small arms space, and literally every ab initio program the Army does is fucked up in some way or another.
We won't see it unless the brass gets 20 more IQ points or some company develops it comercially and bribes the right people.

>>64356383
why did you bring a heart filled with lead fragments back home with you

>>64357718
Believe it or not I recovered the whole round lodged in the other side of its skin, didn’t fragment at all. I have to dig through pics on my old computer but if I find the photo I’ll post it

>>64352377
I can’t imagine chinas tofu plates are too much more resilient than Russias cardboard ones.

based. m16/m4 masterrace.

>>64347635 (OP)
The idea was to disarm us by getting rid of 556 and the armor penetration was for US citizens, not some foreign adversary.

Note: just because this plan is extremely stupid and failed doesn't mean it wasn't the plan. I have a similar theory about sw40 and a failed conspiracy to stop Glock. I bet Ted Kennedy was involved, but that's just a hunch.

>>64347635 (OP)
They should PWS upper receivers with enhanced buffer tubes at the least or HK416 uppers with the same enhanced buffer tubes.

>>64356296
>>64356366
>>64356479
>>64356526
Quality posts. Seems like both of these ideas have ultralight bullets in common. I wonder how e.g. plastic core bullets would react to such high pressures.

>>64360366
Not sure. But you don't need plastic core bullets for this. The 5.56 FABRL achieved a length/diameter ratio of 5.5 with a 37 gr bullet using copper-jacketed mild steel. Hornady has the ELD-VT that's polymer-tipped and lead core with an air pocket that has an L/D of 4.7 at 62 gr. You could get it even lighter with the 7.92 CETME's semi-jacketed aluminum design, but that would be better suited to more powerful and higher caliber cartridges, since 30-40 gr is already pretty borderline.
Twist rate will have to be pretty fast with long, light, and fast bullets, but there are ways around that.

>>64356526
CT is not very space efficient for long bullets, lots of wasted space.
You end up with a fat cartridge meaning single stack grip mag or just long double stack mags.

>>64347635 (OP)
The AR-15 is gimped by a magwell that was designed for a literal squirrel cartridge. 6.8 SPC II had the most potential, but even it works better with the proprietary LWRC lower and mags. Remington also screwed the pooch and ruined the SAAMI specs of the original 6.8 SPC.

>>64350849
He's memeing, but a 123gr 7.62x39 projectile maintains its momentum better than a 55 or 62gr 5.56 projectile (remember momentum = mass x velocity according to Sir Isaac Newton). This was a real problem in the early days of GWOT where guys would complain that they'd have to shoot a dune coon several times with M855 before he'd go down. 5.56 does have "range" (i.e. its flight trajectory doesn't drop as early as 7.62x39), but it sheds momentum much more quickly, which translates to less force impacted on target.

>>64361195
it's not that bad. 5.56CT had a diameter of .410 in, cf. .440 in rim diameter for 6.5 Grendel, 0.425 in for 10mm Auto. don't forget that you're not only making the bullet longer but also downloading the powder charge to 2/3rds or even less with modern propellants to match 5.56 FABRL, so the powder won't use up as much internal volume

>>64361473
No I mean seriously look at the picture. All the space radial from the bullet ogive is just plastic. And the plastic walls are likely thicker than many metallic alternatives.

>>64350995
No they changed the gas plug and anyone that had a problem wants the improved plug just has to contact them I dropped a can on mine and just dialed it to 1 and runs perfect.

>>64347801
The AR-Accepter is the poison in the well of the purity of .308.

>>64361729
so? in a normal case, that wasted space is much bigger and "filled" with air instead. that particular round is the 7.62 M80A1-equivalent load whose case was also made to accomodate a 6.5 EPR, so it's not purpose-made. I'm talking about putting the 5.56 FABRL in the 5.56CT case, which is probably possible the way I described
yeah the walls are thicker. CT isn't actually "telescoped" in the strictest sense, it's more like a tubular conventional case, but you'll have to make it more "telescoped" for secant ogive bullets. shouldn't be that hard but it may decrease propellant efficiency. basically borrow the design from their caseless bullets with the annular plastic endcap

>>64361325
>This was a real problem in the early days of GWOT where guys would complain that they'd have to shoot a dune coon several times with M855 before he'd go down.
.30 Carbine couldn't penetrate winter coats-tier
They just missed

>>64352371
sometimes you gotta fuck up cinderblocks, it's not some brushbusting meme they are used rounds but it works.

>>64362447
I agree, but I think introducing airburst grenade launchers and keeping a few M240s around are better options when the fighting is that intense. It's different for special operations people.

>>64353888
Witnessed, nothing ever happens so it doesn't matter what you use

>>64347635 (OP)
The M4 got mogged so hard by PKM chads that the military would rather use a glorified m14, what a joke of a """gun"""

>>64362562
I don't think that was the m4s fault, most of the time squads didn't have a DMR or SAW since they were so fucking heavy. NOBODY wanted to be stuck with them, even if it could save somebody's life. They should've focused on developing a lighter DMR/LMG like the ziggers did with the SVD and PKM
>t.served in afganistan

>>64362599
>SVD and PKM
I find it hilarious that an American army squad loadout is inferior to a soviet 1970's one.

>>64362599
>>64362616
The SAW is the worst gun in the US arsenal coming in at 22 lbs with the effectiveness of a glorified squirrel cartridge. It's heavier than the RPD which the Soviets realized was a stupid idea in the early 60's. The M27 IAR at less than half the weight makes so much more sense.

>>64362599
The Rangers got the memo and bought the KAC LAMG. I think it would be cool if the Army retvrned to three team squads with a 7.62 KAC AMG team in most squads.

>>64356383
Optimal side on shot. You can do that with a 22 long rifle you fucking dumb child. Quartering away, standing to, quartering towards are less than Optimal for the 5.56. I should have known there would be an actual retard here.
Thats you. With your little office hands and cum covered chin.
>>22 long rifle is a great deer cartridge
Thats you retard.

>>64356121
>>you don't need more

Military combatants
>>we need more

>>

Weren't the soviets experimenting with a 6-7mm cartridge to replace 7.62x54 so machine gunners could have a lighter gun with lighter ammo?

>>64362928
Yes. They tried flechettes in a 10mm bore before settling on a steelcase +P+ .243 Win clone called 6mm Unified. It was 3700 fps with a 80-90gr bullet. Perfect desu. It had 2-3x the barrel wear too, but nothing which wouldn't have been canceled out with chrome lining.

>>64353324
>And works just fine with good shot placement
This is true for literally every cartridge though. When I was 16 I whiffed and gut-shot a whitetail with a soft-point 7.62x54r. We followed blood for half a mile then had to shoot her again]

>>64356383
Yeah I hit picrel in the shoulder with a .223 53gr vmax and she dropped straight down. It's plenty powerful for whitetail. Still, I wouldn't use it on an elk, but I'm sure somebody out there has done it successfully

>>64362987
I don't hunt but it seems that for hunters it's all about shot placement and (for larger beasts) penetration. Whether the bullet expands or tumbles or fragments or whatever is just a difference of the animal dropping dead on the spot or after running for 30 seconds. I don't imagine it's much different for bipedal animals.

>>64363082
>I don't hunt but
Gotcha, opinion discarded then

>>64363103
>t. thinks the hydrostatic shock of shooting someone in the toe with a .45 would eviscerate them

>>64362616
>He doesn't know the PKM ejects on the wrong side

>>64363156
>The best general purpose machine gun in the world filters right handed normalfags
Left handed chads stay winning

>>64362987
>>muh hur de Der fingering wet buttoned noises i don't understand what optimal means her der
You can kill with anything. However 5.56 is minimal on deer as less than Optimal shot angles place more bone in the way and change the depth needed to reach vital organs.
>>muh proofs is i gut shot a deer with a weak ass round.
For fucks sakes you shouldn't be hunting at all.
>> but someone did something one one once
Optimal. Sub Optimal. You can kill a Hippo with a 5.56 but its not going to be successful at plenty of angles other cartridges will. Same with Whitetail. 5.56 is minimal. It is sub Optimal considering many variables and the fact it can not in fact reach the vitals from several angles others can.
Now fuck off. Ive hunted with a recurve. That doesn't mean it isn't minimal or sub Optimal. Assclown.

>>64363156
Buttgripp is the objectively superior left hand placement.

>>64363277
556 is literally more powerful than 308 fudd shit you fucking retard, are you some kind of gun grabber?

>>64363277
>shot angles place more bone in the way and change the depth needed to reach vital organs.
holy... i never thought of that! If i angle my rifle to shoot through someone's buttcheeks, it wont blow their heart out!

>>64362562
>le chad russian
>in photo from afghanistan wherein russians lost

hear me out
what if they took 6mm arc and made it not shit in a brand new gun
>no more logistics and money issues (infinite money + mass adopt)
>literally shoots flatter than .308 w maybe 30% more recoil only
>no more feeding issues and big ass mags
>no more outmatched past the very short range of 5.56 (in prairie/mountain environments)
>short stroke rifle w bigger bolt
>get rid of nigger buffer tube and add a folding stock
its wouldve been so perfect. maybe they even couldve thrown polymer ammo somewhere in.

>>64363410
You're describing the XCR and /k/ hates the XCR because it solves too many problems.

>>64363399
The US lost to PKMs in every war since they were invented, cope

>>64351966
I’m gonna get shit for this, but that’s what the GBRS hydra is for. Move all the shit that needs to hold zero over to the zero-holding upper, and shift the mass of all these instruments over to the middle of the gun. Now that the rail just needs a white light and maybe a VFG - it doesn’t need to be rigid (heavy) enough to hold zero, So it can be made of polymer, even, saving weight and again, moving the gun’s center of mass further back.

>>64363410
In military contexts, machineguns handle long range gun shooting.

>>64363410
Adjustable stocks are good for everyone. Folding stocks are a relic of early cold war clashes between 7.62 FALs or G3s and tiny APC interiors.

>>64352371
>6.5 grendel is trash

The 6.8SPC is, but the 6.5 grendel is a properly designed cartridge. The trajectory is not laser-like, but gravity is constant so if you hold for drop you’ll be fine.

>6mm ARC is a godsend.
Squint and it’s just a 6.5 grendel, but without the short-barreled efficiency

>308 sucks
Finally, someone said it. 308 is nothing more than a scaled up 5.56. Same thing, just with ~2x the energy at all ranges. Not a long range cartridge at all.

>>64352675
>just imagine the frog pic
Kek. I like you, anon. You’re the same guy as volume-of-fire-guy, right?

>>64352745
>6.8SPC air 25-45 sharps
NTA. First time I’m seeing someone argue in favor of 25-45 sharps and find myself nodding in agreement, lol.

Close range and long range guns/cartridges are very different animals and I don’t think there is a comfy middle ground without making severe compromises (see: m7). It does make sense to have 2 different guns in 2 different chamberings and issue the appropriate one based on the type of ranges you’re expecting. One for 0-300yd, another for >300yd. (25-45 sharps isn’t exactly a good 300 yard cartridge though, maybe 150yd or so, the BCs are shit)

>>64356366
> and are only just now breaking new ground with higher pressure bimetallic cartridges

It’s unbelievable that this isn’t obvious to everyone. We’re kind of in the beginning of a mini revolution in firearms, but few companies are capitalizing on it. NAS3 cases, for instance, significantly reduce case mass and volume per unit muzzle energy. This is a huge deal. With a smaller case loaded to higher pressures, you could duplicate m855 from a cartridge like 4 grams lighter.

>>64356526
Here’s a mock-up of a 30 carbine case necked to 224. I plugged the cartridge specs into an internal ballistics computer, and at 80kpsi, it predicts a muzzle energy of roughly 1250ft*lbs. bullet is 5 calibers long, i7 should be between 0.8-0.85. And the point of the 30 carbine case is 1) reduced case weight and 2) 80 round desert-tech style quads stacks no longer than the surefires.

5.56 FABRL was a stroke of genius, it’s a shame that cartridge went nowhere. If you haven’t (you probably have), check out the 4.85x49mm. It’s like the one good firearms-related thing the Brits have come up with. That, with an even shorter case and longer bullet, at 80kpsi, would also make for an excellent cartridge.

>>64361195
NTA. CT rounds can conceivable feed into the chamber from the front, so you don’t even need to feed through the grip. You can achieve the same length savings of the semi-bullpup mp7 but with the magazine located in front of the grip.

You are right though, CT does not play well with long ogives and a perfect cylinder does not lend itself to feeding through the grip vs a bottlenecked cartridge of the same length.

>>64363442
USA won the Iraq War

>>64363923
folding stocks do adjust and be taken off to make a pdw or folded and thrown in a backpack
doesnt matter for an infantry rifle but yk. also shifts the weight forward.
>cold war relic
bren 2, scar, sig mcx, all the new rifles have it.
>>64363901
why is everyone moving to IARs?
machine guns are good for static positions, ambush, and when motorized

>>64364230
>why is everyone moving to IARs?
Because of laws surrounding funding. This is how the marines got the M27.

>>64364409
This, everyone wants 416s since regular M4s are unreliable slop but the kikes in charge of funding won't let them buy good guns unless it's for another role that doesn't actually exist

>>64364230
>everyone
Only the Marines.

>>64361195
Textron dumped the whole thing after the NGSW trials so that shit is pretty much dead and buried.

>>64362915
You’re a brown third worlder that doesn’t hunt or own guns, anything you have to say on this topic is completely irrelevant

>>64364079
I don't get why you're so fixated on shorter cases.
A 5.56 length or even a bit longer case is the KEY to getting a cartridge with a narrow case (short magazines) and a long bullet form factor.

>>64366566
Yeah the COAL isn’t all that important, you could go longer. But if you can duplicate 5.56 with a shorter COAL, then you don’t need to go any longer, and now your mags will take up slightly less volume.

>>64366752
I just feel like the depth of the mag isn't as important as the vertical length.

>>64362920
>>If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.

>>64347635 (OP)
Well yeah. If we're fighting against farmers with no body armor sure.
But if/when we fight against soldiers with armor then we will need to replace it. And it's better to have something in place that we can rapidly outfit than be caught with our dick in our hands

>>64366917
Its armor penetration is in the same league as M80A1 because it's essentially the same thing travelling at a slightly higher velocity. That was just a meme to justify its procurement since the ICSR days, along with "overmatch." The brAss just wanted a battle rifle. Don't sanewash it.

>>64366917
The insurgents in Iraq often had armor and it wasn't an issue. Fighting against real soldiers only makes the SCHV concept more important. DMRs are a COIN meme.

>>64364230
Folding stocks add a superfluous hinge to increase weight and bulk.

I find it funny that American MIC theorists are autistically obsessing over body armor when the Ukraine war shows none of that shit matters if you get sprayed in CQB or trench combat you’re dead either way. Better to be light and maneuverable.

>>64361195
>>64364110
You're forgetting the part about taking out the extra powder. 5.56 FABRL CT would only have two thirds of the powder charge, less with >>64364079's high pressure loading, and even less than that with RDX or HMX, but that's another topic. 5.56 CT M855A1 is already a hair shorter than 5.7x28.
>>64364079
It pisses me off how this stuff is theoretically so simple to make but ammo manufacturers would still rather tool for shit like 22 Creedmoor or whatever the fuck instead.

>>64352459
>Pepe: Wardogs edition

>>64347635 (OP)
>Didn't need replacing
Honestly i'm tired of hearing this, this is literally the modern equivalent of the m14 to m16 debate in the 60s. The .277s design philosophy is on its face to penetrate enemy body armor, but thats not all. Think of the use of this caliber in the context of a war in taiwan and in china. The terrain of both nations are steep mountainous valleys or large flat plains which will require a a flat shooting cartridge. the hypothetical war it would most likely bog down in these said mountain ranges given how chinas army operates to give territory and bog down an army with extended supply lines. Ammo in this war would be highly limited due to nearly no resupplies compared to say ww2 due to drone threats or other threats. The idea in combination with the scope is to limit amount of ammo used vs increasing the amount of the impact on the enemies soldiers/military, with the m16 soldiers shoot FAR more than they would with a full power cartridge to reach an equivalent amount of hits (with iron sights or a magnified scope without the aim bot BS of the m7s scope). This is generally the conclusions i've come to, tell me if you think im wrong but i believe i'm correct in this assumption.

>>64367468
too add since i forgot, a more conspiratorial view could say they're expecting extremely devastating casualties leading to a lower and lower IQ army over time as more and more browns are put into service. the scope plus cartridge makes shooting extremely easy and essentially hit scan like vidya.

>>64367468
>>64367493
>the gun is designed for low IQ troops who will be forced to use limited amounts of ammo
this is fucking dumb lmao

>>64347635 (OP)
Tri-Color Desert didn't need to be replaced either but the army wouldn't get a massive budget if they didn't needlessly replace shit

>>64367468
>The .277s design philosophy is on its face to penetrate enemy body armor
Which it cannot do any better than 5.56

>>64367468
Taiwan is extremely urbanized and you come to the conclusion of long range battles?
God help us all.

>>64367913
>this is fucking dumb lmao
prove it otherwise, the cartridge is flat shooting and the scope calculates the drop + possibly the windage. this is just a conspiratorial view so to discredit everything i've said because of a hypothesis is stupid.
>>64368152
its about the kinetic energy and having the highest likelihood of a one shot one kill scenario
>>64368162
only the eastern side of taiwan which will be taken over by china quickly, the rest is extremely rural and mountainous. i implore you to go to taiwan eventually or go on google maps/roads and you'll see what i mean

>>64368312
western side* sorry

>>64368312
>its about the kinetic energy
Defeating body armor is in fact not about the kinetic energy.
>extremely rural and mountainous
Full of dense forests like Vietnam.

>>64367136
>22 sneed
Kek. Remember when Hornady identified and remedied a glaring CapAbiLiTy GaP between 24 and 26 sneed, and made the 25 sneed? Yeah. Truly groundbreaking stuff there. I can feel the earth move beneath my feet. The world of guns will never be the same.

You know they must be red in the face, seething, howling at the sky, because there is no standard 23 caliber to fit inbetween 22 and 24 sneed.

>>64368406
>Defeating body armor is in fact not about the kinetic energy.
most of chinas military currently uses no body armor. in the case of a hypothetical ww3 scenario this will become essentially nonexistent.
and yes kinetic energy absolutely matters? are you genuinely retarded? im not trying to turn this into a shit flinging fest but even in the case if they have body armor for every soldier it will break their rib cage/spine/where ever it hits which leads to a higher casualty rate.
>Full of dense forests like Vietnam.
the terrain is entirely different minus the extreme highlands, absolute false comparison.

>>64347635 (OP)
agreed

M16 with a 22" barrel for max weight to muzzle velocity ratio, just use hardened core ammo and you a get better penetration than some faggy overpowered round which can't even be trained with regularly thus throwing of the troops when they switch from their low pressure training rounds to the ones meant to perforate chinks in their "Level IV" vests. And you can carry more ammo.

M4 continues to be used as a replacement for submachine guns but better in every way.

Both still more mud resistant than any platform. Still using all the accessories available thus making in cheap and modular. And the idiotic selling point of the new suppressor preventing hearing damage can be addressed by instead implementing noise canceling headgear with integrated communications so the squad actually knows what it is doing. It's not as if their weapons are the only ones making noise anyway.

>>64347635 (OP)
Something tells me the new stuff won't be used much and people will get old stuff from storage

>>64347635 (OP)
Still unironically holding the vertical foregrip vertically in 2025......really?

True but when my team switched from M4’s to 416D’s I was not complaining.

>>64369765
Anon I don't think that picture was taken in 2025

>>64369816
Stolen valor is a crime

>>64368430
>most of chinas military currently uses no body armor
What do you base that on?
>yes kinetic energy absolutely matters
Kinetic energy per area and penetrator type matter. 5.56 penetrates the same plates as does 6.8

>>64367111
Credible theorists all suggest SCHV. Only fudd faggots who can't into the scientific method seriously want battle rifles.

What is the length of this rifle?

>>64371016
Thats a car bean

>>64347687
No one's stopping you hotshot

>>64350766
It's lighter weight which is very nice but it doesn't shield from heat very well, that shit gets hot as fuck if you're burning it down.

>>64371016
That's a car byne

>>64371016
that's a card bind

>>64362920
As a former GWOTnibba grunt, no. No we didn’t. I got in plenty of firefights in Trashcanistan and never had an issue with 5.56. If there was a need to reach out farther, we always had options. User your marksman, slap their tits with a LAV, call in support, suppress and move up, whatever.
>Abloohoo sample size of one
Ok, go ask other guys who were there. RoE was a bigger issue than the cartridge our rifles were chambered in. Chances are they’ll say the same. And that Afghanistan was a weird conflict that isn’t really indicative of future ones.

>>64367468
>Oh man, I’m sure glad I no longer have a decently-made gun chambered in something lighter that lets me carry more ammo and shit now that I’m expecting to fight in places that are heavily urbanized and mountainous haha
>A poorly-made gun chambered in a mediocre meme cartridge that weighs more and can’t pen the armor that most of our worldly enemies won’t have anyway is exactly what I needed haha

>>64370463
>What do you base that on?
source: trust me bro but seriously just trust me.
>Kinetic energy per area and penetrator type matter.
5.56 would not in fact penetrate the same plates as 6.8 due to AGAIN it having a lower kinetic energy. yes at similar ranges with similar penetrators they will perform similarly but push that out to 500m, 600, 700, and beyond and you will begin to see differences between the two.

>>64373828
>admitting openly you can't see beyond 1 or two steps ahead
surely an enemy would never adapt or try to up armour troops over time right? they'll just keep using the same equipment forever?

>>64374550
but anon, it already can't penetrate current generation armor, same as 5.56.

>>64374558
frankly I highly doubt the government/sig is being truthful entirely about this project, they're never ever truthful about anything military related. it would be in their best interests to highly underplay the power of the calibre/raifu

>>64374570
I am 100% sure they're not being truthful, and I am 100% sure sig is lying about the gun, but not in the way you're imagining.

>>64374574
this could be the case too, I typically give the benefit of the doubt for things like this. and given how corrupt our government is this could easily be a complete mistake to line the pockets of some generals. it's still a good concept though

>>64374578
I do agree it's a good concept, but I think the gun has massive flaws.

>Basically unusable without a suppressor
>chasing absurd pressures leads to the steel reinforced case, which I guarantee will eventually lead to catastrophic failure due to Sig's poor QC
>accuracy is in the absolute shitter from what we know as confirmed fact
>Sig's claims about barrel life do not seem to be rooted in the reality of any sane world

I think the majority of all of these problems could be solved by just easing up on the barrel length and going for 16-18", which would still be lighter and shorter than the gun with a suppressor. We don't have to do crazy things to hit high pressure then and can even go back to a conventional brass case. Fix the barrel accuracy and you then have the best DMR anyone ever has ever fielded, and it's still way shorter, lighter, and more effective than the M110 in any variant.

>>64374582
Honestly all of the problems seem very temporary besides the barrel life, these are the kinds of things which get ironed out with a1, a2, etc variants over time. Although the barrel life issue is something which i don't see fixing without magic or some metallurgy/tech magic that i can't think of off the top of my head.
>could be solved by just easing up on the barrel length and going for 16-18"
definitely agree, when I first heard how short the barrel was I thought it was a stupid decision since they're trying to make this the aimbot every soldier is a marksman raifu. moar inches is typically betta for that

>>64363277
Within 200y .223 is unironically a better killer than .308

>>64367468
Anon the coastal regions that everyone gonna be fighting over are heavily urbanized and those mountain valleys are heavily forested with sporadic CQB nightmare villages and towns. The new rifle is quite literally the opposite of what you’d want in ANY scenario in Taiwan

>>64374682
the sight lines of taiwans mountains are actually pretty long typically, the terrain and flora is very similar to northern italy. the gamble is the war will slow down to a stalemate in these mountains and the superior range and penetration will edge out chinas home team advantage.

>>64374688
Superior range and penetration on standard infantry rifles rarely matter as much as the amount of ammo you can field. In those sight lines you’d be better off calling in any kind of air or arty and using DMRs and machine guns in heavier calibers. Frankly the better solution to this problem would be integrating MMGs at the platoon or even squad level rather than giving everyone a far less capable rifle

>>64374697
in the next world war the idea of calling in artillery or air support will seem laughably naive to the reality of it. Think of it like this, You want to maximize enemy killed/hit in a war where the average soldier will have little resupply to none for very long stretches of time. The solution for this is 1. A larger caliber to reduce ammunition consumption (leading to more soldiers getting more ammo through resupply and having more in reserves. 1 pound of ammo shot vs .5 pound shot basically) 2. A high velocity full power cartridge even if stopped by body armour will impart more kinetic energy into the soldier breaking more bones causing more problems for their logistics.
>Frankly the better solution to this problem would be integrating MMGs at the platoon or even squad level
you're onto something and yes i agree to an extent but still the m7 distinguishes its self by doing what i said above.

>>64374715
You could reduce ammunition consumption by having better optics. But the biggest issue with the larger caliber is you drastically reduce how much ammo dudes can carry. If you’re going to have limited resupplies, you’re gonna want as much ammo as possible, and whoever has the most will win regardless of range. Nor will having more through resupply or reserves matter if you’re gonna run out quicker because you have much less. Also I don’t find the armor arguement compelling. In Ukraine, plenty of people have armor, some even have very good armor, yet nobody outside of DMR or MGs are clamoring for battle rifles. They have the same basic assault rifles but topping off with as much ammo as they can physically carry. Not to mention the sight lines there are far longer than any in Taiwan or most of China.

>>64374735
Shouldn’t have said battle rifles for the MGs, I just meant a heavier caliber

>>64347635 (OP)
Tell that to the guy who's 800 yards away with a Dragunov.

>>64374735
>If you’re going to have limited resupplies, you’re gonna want as much ammo as possible
a smaller caliber means soldiers are more willing to expend more ammo. it all comes down to logistics and if a soldier shoots 3 bullets of 5.56 vs 1-2 for 6.8 this stuff adds up over time drastically
>yet nobody outside of DMR or MGs are clamoring for battle rifles.
This is more so the nature of this war vs a near future global conflict. in ukraine more ammo absolutely matters far more than higher impact rounds (not talking about the simple fact that 5.45 and 5.56 are just far more available and supported). They also have the opportunity of resupply more than likely far more than a hypothetical ww3 scenario will, plus assistance from arty, CAS indirect fire, etc

>>64374747
They’re less willing to expend the larger caliber because they have a lot less of it. You see the big issue with that? In a prolonged firefight they’re simply going to lose and no amount of resupplies will save that

>>64374759
>They’re less willing to expend the larger caliber because they have a lot less of it
No its just human psychology, people are less willing to ape out with a full power round that recoils more than an intermediate round that feels like nothing when firing. This especially applies for things like full auto even if its a rarity

>>64374747
We've known since WW2 that this is a retarded idea. All else being equal, whoever shoots first, most, and most accurately wins. Even if you think giving your guys a gun that punishes them for shooting it would somehow confer them an advantage, it would be counteracted by the fact that they carry much less ammo.

Also, the miniaturization of technology means you can give everyone small sniper drones that provide organic fire support against snipers and RPG teams, we've had the Switchblade 300 since like 2011. This is better than any battle rifle by orders of magnitude. Trying to kill far-off machine gunners with an inaccurate battle rifle is like giving your AT guys rifles and telling them to shoot into the tank's bore instead of giving them Javelins.

>>64356661
People don't understand what the covers are for. They think oh the rails sharp we need to cover that shit up so it's not annoying to hold.
Nah the covers are to stop a hot metal handguard from burning you.
You think oh that smooth ultra thin lock free float won't fuck up your hand cause there's no cheese graters when those heat up faster and worse than quads.

>>64362206
Cope. There's a reason why M855 is universally considered to be shit, and why loads like MK262 and M855A1 were created.

>>64362616
a soviet 1970s loadout doesnt have a radio connected to the us airforce and us navy

I don't get why we have this conversation over and over
5.56 isn't some magic, it's had a lifetime of development and loads to do whatever you need it to do. The only comparable cartridge development wise is 308, and 50 bmg but it's a completely separate use case.
All these other cartridges show promise but will never seem as polished because yeah they beat 855 in this test but then you just use M768 bindlefuck and it's now outperformed.
Give 6.8, 6.5, and so on another decade. Granted 5.56 will also have another decade but at least we'll have some interesting loads at that point

>>64374743
Guess I'll radio my buddy with the M24

>>64364206
Both of em

>>64374743
does russia even have anymore svds?

>>64374743
i'll take my chances

>>64356296
>despite underinvestment

Faggot retard thief

>>64347635 (OP)
>Didn't need replacing
But needs improving.

>>64350849
Checkmate NAFO troons!
https://web.archive.org/web/20100601115534/http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/afghanistan/article7135496.ece

>>64376747
Fuddism and its consequences are a disaster to humanity

>>64376758
>With its light bullets the M4 rifle lacks sufficient velocity and killing power in long-range firefights, leaving US troops outgunned by the Taleban and their AK47 Kalashnikovs and the old Russian SVD sniper rifle.

>>64376758
5.56 is literally a fudd cartridge. It was designed as a suped-up 222 Remington because the logic was that it would be easier for Vietnam draftees to control in spray-and-pray since boy scouts learned how to shoot with 22s. It was an overcorrection from 7.62x51 that we're now married to because of how the AR-15's magwell works. Every alternative cartridge has to feed from an M16 magazine or else the entire gun has to be redesigned.

>>64376798
>responds with the most fuddistic bullshit that has ever smeared across my eyes
daaaamn you mean to tell me that the magwell restricts the size of the boolet!?

>>64347635 (OP)
It didn't need a lot of things

>>64376798
what a retarded post

>>64376576
geriatric parasite

>>64377143
You can get by with a barebones M16, but there’s room for improvement.

>>64366917
armor penetration is a meme

>>64377557
Yeah, like reducing the RPM down to 550-600

>>64349708
Retarded take. Even with a 12in handguard, all of that shit just gets crammed towards the last 6in of it anyway. It makes no sense to stagger your flashlight and IR laser when they're on two different sides of the handguard anyway. Tell me what the first 6in of handguard is being used for here, mongoloid

>>64347635 (OP)
did it need adopting ? why not an ar10 in 220 swift

>>64378781
barrel life of 1.5k, that's pretty shit dude.

>>64378792
admittedly load data for 80 grain bullet'ed .220 swift is a bit scarce.
and the 71 mm ish overall cartridge length should allow for some silly innovations, eg take 223 WSSM case and put an extra long bullet in it.

>>64347635 (OP)
yep

>>64380696
Ian please.

>>64369912
I’m at my gf’s so you’ll have to settle for an old pic and giving me an apology.

>>64362556
Little Annie Fanny. Never expected to see her in /k/.

>>64368429
These calibers are the gun equivalent of e-waste, and ammo companies love this situation. They probably lobby against actual innovation too.

>>64347635 (OP)
M4s on MARS

>>64369028
M855 sucks pic rel so everyone understands what theyre buying and why the accuracy is so bad.

It's also not what I would call hardened steel. It's apparently a 1045 carbon at about a 45HRC average.
A 1060 at 55-56HRC would be a true penetrator core. If you were to go beyond that (such as 1080 carbon steel, and/or above the mid to high 50s hardness) you'll get steel fracturing as the dominating effect instead of penetration.

855 is only supposed to pop a helmet at 300yd, or go through thin sheet metal without statistically significant deviation and energy loss.

>>64384355
Forgot pic

>>64347635 (OP)
I don't remember if I posted this already or not, but you guys arguing performance don't understand who made the decision and why.
Who is noguns political types and why is to starve the American civilian population of ammo and supply the military with a round capable of defeating American civilian body armor.
>That's stupid and doesn't work
Yes, they are noguns politicians. The same type of idiots that thought 40sw would make Glock go away and return the LEO monopoly to s&w. Just because a plan would never work doesn't mean it wasn't the plan.

Also (((sig))) grift.

>>64347635 (OP)
Stoner must've cursed the US Army like Voldemort cursed the DADA job.

>>64385540
Me sad Remington didn't do the masada justice

>>64380696
The two most straightforward improvements - a low cyclic rate and quad stack mag - that went nowhere. The world did not deserve Jim Sullivan. Constant recoil + quad stack + heavy barrel = 7 pound mag-fed LMG, and we’re sleeping on this? Absurd.

>>64385540
Kek

>>64385716
Because the bureaucratic machine known as the U.S. military is full of retards

>>64352377
just shoot em thrice

>>64385716
Add the new Desert Tech lower and quad stacks and you would have an incredible infantry rifle / LMG but fucking no

>>64387136
That’s exactly what I had in mind, quad stack all the way up, the same length as surefire mag5-60 mags, with the same nested springs, would have a capacity of 75 rounds!!!

>>64348975
>This is, unironically, where the M4A1 peaked.

>>64387951
Nah

>>64387951
This but used in the assault rifle role as the M16A4.5

>>64347635 (OP)
how do you fuck up the american flag and get it backwards

>>64390731
In case you’re serious, it’s a beautiful thing. The soldier represents a flagpole moving forward, never backward. The wind blows the flag backwards, so from the right side, the flag looks mirrored. There is another flag patch on his left shoulder, and that one looks normal.

>>64390838
are you fucking serious. you guys havent figured out how to have two sided flags

>>64390871
Ya mudda meant to tell me but she was to busy sucking my balls

>>64391023
i very much doubt that. my mother knows how to layer a fabric, she is a seamstress. she would of told you, ball sucking or not. doubling the layers would also work great for a flags durability and protecting from the elements. and you can flip it inside out once the suns faded the flag enough and have basically a fresh flag. do they really not do this

>>64391081
>she would of told

>>64391348
yeah i dont fix those typos i make consistently. the ai doesnt make those mistakes. and its a signature, i can find my own posts in the archives with pretty good confidence without actually having a "signature" or anything. its the same 5-6 words i just always misspell, every time.

>>64391081
that explanation makes no sense for the purpose of the flag facing that direction though.

>>64391486
yeah, its obviously the wrong direction. "so it looks like the flag is blowing in the wind". lol. for real? if thats the real, actual reason, id love to see it in some official documentation. i believe it, its just dumb.

>>64391502
it's meant to look like this
it looks "backwards" here because he's going forwards.

>>64391502
https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/heres-why-us-flag-sometimes-appears-backwards

>>64391510
Not just an American thing either btw

>>64391502
And since you want official documentation
https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/ar670-1.pdf
>The full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is worn so that the star field faces forward, or to the flag’s own right. When
worn in this manner, the flag is facing to the observer’s right, and gives the effect of the flag flying in the breeze as the
wearer moves forward. The appropriate replica for the right shoulder sleeve is identified as the reverse side flag.

>>64391510
honestly just came back to say im now deliberately going to put the patches on the wrong side of the helmet now that i know why they have backwards ones. specially the american flags with text on them, like the 1777

The AR15 and its variants are SUPERIOR to AKs.

>>64392502
true

>>64391525
> Always Forward
I believe is what it is. When looking at it left to right.

>>64347635 (OP)
TRVTH

>>64348877
>you see

>>64348975
>>64349079
M4 lives to it's IDEOLOGY and GETS RESPECT! !! !

It is basically a sniper imo.

>>64392502
>>64392866
AK lives to it's name.

It does. It does need replacing.

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoner_63

>>64392502
after shooting an AK for the first time I have to agree, the AR is so much better it's unreal

>>64347635 (OP)
don't go

5.56 can be reliably stopped by cheap ceramic armor.

>>64398687
As can be any rifle cartridge.

>>64392502
trvke