Thread 64360462

M4 Sherman

Without a doubt the M60, overstayed its welcome and based upon an outdated design lineage. Immortalized with countless monuments, so your average joe thinks it was some big deal.

The T-14 maybe? Shit didn't even exist but the zegroes gushed about it for over a decade.

>>64360462 (OP)
The T-34 and the Panzer IV.

>>64360491
the panzer IV is underrated, if anything
since its often treated as a footnote in favor of talking about the big cats

Any Soviet tank really. They lack adequate armor and their later tanks didn’t have fire control systems that kept up with NATO, for example their infrared was dogshit. But they were cheap, that’s the only thing Soviet tanks ever did well.

>>64360554
Lets see..... Hmmmm, aha! Another oil refinery! Wait no, two oil refineries!

>>64360562
ok. I dont care.were talking about overrated tanks. leopard II is the most hyped tank in history and clearly overrated. they were made mincemeat in ukraine
and before that by isis when turkey used it

>>64360569
>they were made mincemeat in ukraine
ukranians have explicitly said the leopard 2 has performed well

>>64360576
>they want more stuff paid by your taxes
they want stuff that works, if the leopard 2 was so bad they would have said so
the leopard 2 is perfectly rated, it was hyped up as an excellent tank and it delivered

>>64360576
>Oblastposting in 2025.

>>64360576
>My taxes finally are able to be used for TZD again
Took those contrarian faggots long enough to learn that TZD is absolutely essential for the American way of life.

>>64360462 (OP)
>M4 Sherman
Got the americans and to some degree bongs+allies into germany, so I wouldn't say it's overrated. Then kept going in Korea and Israel.

>>64360494
NTA, but now that it became fashionable to put down big cats in a correction of boomer war myths, I feel like there was a spew of wehraboos crying how P4 would've saved germany if it wasn't for them pesky big cats. Therefore it's only natural there will be a correction now, claiming how P4 was a piece of shit deathtrap and uh *checks notes* the Panzerjager II would've saved Germania.

>>64360595
>abraham

Not a tank but the Hetzer. Like the Panther it’s good on paper but in reality it had horrific crew ergonomics and armor isn’t nearly as good as it looks. Second nomination would be the Panther.

>>64360462 (OP)
T-34, or more specifically the 76mm variants.

>>64360562
and a couple power plants

>>64360595
And here comes the /pol/troon with his carefully labeled collection of propaganda shots, right on time.

T-34 probably, it really was a shit tank, and somehow has a reputation for being reliable, which it was anything but

>ctrl + f "tiger 2"
>0 results
Huh?

>>64360599
The Panther was a really good and reasonably priced tank thoughever, marred by some early production issues

>>64360592
>I feel like there was a spew of wehraboos crying how P4 would've saved germany if it wasn't for them pesky big cats
that is hardly reaching the point of overcorrection, since the panzer IV is still largely passed over for the panther outside a relatively small number of people
its more common to see people gas up the stug III more than the panzer IV

in any case, its very hard to overstate how important the panzer IV was to the german army, considering it was their most produced tank and second most produced AFV
you would expect people to sing its praise but you really dont

>>64360624
Panther had bad crew ergonomics, terrible vision and poor maintenance designs. It was a good tank designed by committee.

>>64360622
Both tigers have their opinions overcorrected to hell and are seen as shit by most people. Which is fair for the King Tiger, but the regular Tiger was a solid piece of kit that was hurt by revisionism.

>>64360462 (OP)
Your mom. Fat, big and slow and can fit 4 men inside her.

>>64360569
yeah no, if any tank is overrated for being made mincemeat of in ukraine, its the t-90. i mean for fuck's sake, you lost one to the autocannon of a bradley. there's no coming back from that

>>64360642
Its more a case of neither tank ever really being used for theor intended purpose. The germans knew they were maintenance heavy but they werent to be MBYs but ratjer specialized breakthrough tanks that fought for short whiles between maintenanve

[Insert WW2 German/Russian tank here]

>>64360639
>It was a good tank designed by committee.
It was also designed as a 'fast' response to the T-34, designed and built in two years. Which is fast for WW2 Germany.
And they absolutely realized the thing needed improvements. but when they had all that worked out in (early) 1944 they stopped all the incremental modifications and went for their Stadard tank concept, which was suposed to start production in '45.

tl;dr,
Panther good in concept, but was really just the open alpha test of the MBT
Comet was the closed beta

>>64360813
>which was essentially the wonder weapon to turn the tide
according to whom? Incel Smegma Z?

>>64360626
Fuck off back to /pol/ zig cocksucker.

>>64360813
>me? what are you talking about..? I have no stakes.
i didnt say you did, you decided to bring it up for some reason. speaking of wunderwaffe to turn the tide, what ever happened to the t-14? they stopped parading them for some reason

>>64360813
only ziggers overhyped western MBTs
everyone else just looked at the numbers Ukraine got and said 'nah bro that shit isn't going anywhere'

>>64360576
I pray to god that I can pay more taxes to genocide ziggers. It's a moral imperative for the sake of all mankind.

>>64360595
>abraham
How are they even paying you for this shit

ww2 - tiger I
cold war - 64/72/80 trio
modern - t-14, whatever next gen chink shit

>>64360907
>modern - t-14, whatever next gen chink shit
overrated implies highly regarded but undeserving
No one anywhere thinks chink tanks are good. and t-14 isnt even real

>>64360868
Western journos and nafoids where hyping up the Abrams and Leopard 2 to high heaven. Everyone who knew better wasn't but that doesn't stop ziggers from pushing the "arrogant western wunderwaffe leopold2 has been humbled by just as good russian armor!!!" narrative

>>64360909
delusional

>>64360576
>>64360886
yeah unironically one of the few things Im OK with my tax dollars paying for.
bonus points for its not even American kids doing the bleeding its other post soviet slavs paying the karmic debt for being the right hand of the Soviet Union for 70 years.

Ukrainian Scientists, Solider and Engineers propped the USSR up and enabled Russia to continue the farce for another probably 50 years past when it would have collapsed on its own. Virtually all the most advanced tech came out of Ukrainian facilities.

It is a form of justice that it is they who are finally paying the blood price to put the idea of the russian empire down.

>>64360622
Tiger II is correctly rated and in popular culture is overtly bashed for its (legitimate but overstated) issues.

>>64360948
>Western journos and nafoids where hyping up the Abrams and Leopard 2 to high heaven.

show me.

>>64360965
people have gassed up the tiger 2 as some kind super weapon for decades and its only recently that people realized that it sucked and acknowledged its mechanical issues as an actual problem and not just "and it would have destroyed 1000 shermans if it didnt break down"

>>64360470
It's definitely an interesting vehicle though, in that it's basically a late WW2 design (M26) carried to it's penultimate level of development. It's effectively the acme of mediocrity, in that the '60 (and the M48 to an extent) can do many tasks reasonably well, but none of them exceptionally.
It's also what you get when a nation all but gives up on modernizing it's armor, til absolutely forced to.
I expect to see infinite variations of the M1 for the next half-century.

>>64360980
>in that it's basically a late WW2 design (M26) carried to it's penultimate level of development.
the pershing line ended with the M47
the M48 only had something like 60% commonality with the M47
the M60 wasnt even in the same program as the M48 and isnt even named patton, its a spin-off of the T95 program which was the first attempt to replace the M48

>>64360837
you brought up that someone is for or against something...?
as for t-14, it has never existed in production. probably it cant exist with the sanctions, so maybe, who knows, if the war ends one way or another.
or maybe it can be domestically produced if everything was taken

>>64360462 (OP)
Panzer IV by a mile, to be overrated a lot of people need to think it's great.

>>64360470
I don’t think anyone knows about the M60, like at all. I have never heard the word M60 mentioned once in my life outside the internet. The only times when it is mentioned online is to try to say that if is better than the mediocrity it looks like on paper.

>>64360595
>they burned excellent
This is coming from a zegro who will tell you that puccian armor is excellent lol

>>64360462 (OP)
You should stab yourself in the anus with a cheesegrater for even remotely suggesting the Sherman.

Rule of thumb is that anything German is going to be overrated as fuck. Doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be bad tanks but there is this automatic assumption that everything made by Kraut sausage fingers is wunderwaffle material when a lot of it is average at best when you sit down to have a proper look at it.

Why are browns and other assorted thirdies obsessed with the concept of wonder weapons? I have never heard anyone outside of ziggers on /k/ refer to Leopards as a wonder weapon, does it help take the sting out of the humiliation for them or something? I do know that the Ukies that get assigned to Western tanks consider it winning the lottery but it's still just a regular tank.

>>64361095
The complete lack of self awareness required to say shit like this when thousands of burnt out wrecks litter the fields and streets of Ukraine is simply astonishing.

So I guess that makes the T-72, T-80 and T-90 the most overhyped tanks unless instant cremation is part of their mission profile.

>>64361147
>once, the leopard II was seen as the invincible and perfect tank
again, according to whom?

>>64360813
So sensitive lmao. Keep coping

>>64361171
/pol/troon like him are obsessed with reddit and reading NAFOtroon tweets so wanna guess?

>>64360595
You mean they survived better than any russkie deathtrap and are still composting ziggers to this day.

>abraham
Can you get any more thirdie tourist?

>>64361221
>until it had to prove itself in syria and the ukraine
and it has proven itself to be quite a capable machine that lived up to the hype
it is not overrated, it is exactly rated

>>64360813
>I have no stakes.
Oh sure you don't, Indiana vatnigger.

PS: You're literally the only one using that phrase while spouting zigger propaganda here, retard. Kys.

>>64360909
>one of the most heavily armored MBTs in existence
>relatively lightly armored
Retard.

>not an MBT
How so? It was built to fulfill the role of MBT, and it fulfills all requirements for being an MBT and then some, and is being used as an MBT by every military using it.

>but in actual application it is not a vehicle suited for offensive use
It is EXTREMELY well-shited for offensive use, though? Excellent firepower (including excellent firepower on the move), excellent armor and survivability, excellent maneuverability, excellent situational awareness, even decent fuel range and ease of repair. It ticks every box needed for offensive use, and then some. It is, by any remotely sane measure, far BETTER suited for offensive use than russkie shitboxes with their sub-par FCS, sub-par armor, sub-par tactical maneuverability and crap stabilization.

>>64360462 (OP)
Any modern MBT when discussed by amateurs. People hype their chosen tank up, claim it's invincible, can beat up your favorite tank, is better looking, has a tighter tankussy, etc. MBTs aren't magic, if you use them poorly (sending them in unsupported against a semi-competent defense) they will die. Even when you use them right, some of them will be destroyed. Armored warfare is like fucking, it's great to have a big dick but if you don't have technique and coordination, than you are going to do poorly

>>64361221
>ok. I dont care.
You keep repeating this lie, Indiana vatnigger. Why? Literlaly nobody is believing you. Nobody has ever fallen for it. Why do you keep trying to lie like this? Something something definition of insanity.

>>64361221
>.in
Yep it's a pajeet lmao

Incredible that pajeets think that they deserve to discuss engineering marvels such as tanks when they can't even produce a fucking rifle on their own

M1 Abrahams
there i said it

>>64360595
>abraham tank
never post here again turdie.

>>64360470
m60 is not overrated.

its a tank, it does tank stuff.

its not the best, but if you don't have anti tank weapons you are fucked if you encounter it

>>64361331
>m60 is not overrated.
as mentioned above, how can the M60 be overrated when most people dont rate it at all?
its only ever brought up as the successor to the M48 and mostly just compared to the T-64 and T-72 due to not having composite armor

this is a genuine case of being underrated since it had a fairly good combat history despite only being known as the thing they would have been forced to fight the T-64 with

>>64360554
Why?

>>64361328
the Abraham is the Egyptian monkey model of the M1. they call it the Ibrahim though

>>64360462 (OP)
>sherman
>overrated
>everyone shits on it constantly for being undergunned and underarmored
Are you ESL? "overrated" means "people give it way more recognition than it deserves". A better WW2 answer would be Tiger.
>people constantly dickride the combination of gun and armor as well as german aesthetics
>the tank itself was slow, unreliable, and often mobility killed by its own weight and quality issues

>>64361347
But what about my blogs and pajeet websites!?

>>64361347
That's fine, but I disagree. That is also fine <3

>>64361095
Feel we're overdue an Indian military thread. Always enjoyed the circus.

>>64360797
How in the fuck have I never noticed the dude hanging out of the hatch.
Wonder how far he got sent into orbit
Anyway here's a webm of an alleged leopard engaging modern russian armour

>>64361221
>the ukraine
>.in
they aren't sending their best

We have Leopard II's in our army. When I was a conscript no one ever told us it was invincible, just that it was a lot better than anything Russia has, which has proven to be true. I do remember vatniks telling me that puccian tanks were just as good as anything the West has, though. The whole "wunder waffe/invincible thing" seems to be a very third world mindset.

>>64361378
Man bike rushes were so much more powerful in Zero Hour!

Say what you will about soviet armour, but I've always been partial to the T-64

>>64361398
It's just more projection on their part. They were chest thumping for years over T series tanks, you think it was the yanks that came up with the monkey model cope for export models getting popped by sand niggers?
it is literally always projection when dealing with the far east

>>64361221
>indian TLD
arjun best tank sir

>>64360797
eh it wasn't penetrated
at most the gyro and optics were damaged
the crew just panicked (and were probably concussed)

"Abraham" and "nafo" need to be autoban strings on /k/.

>>64361444
cool it with the antisemitism

>>64361420
to be overrated it has to be rated highly
>>64361447
its amusing how both sides are now calling each other Jews, especially since it all started with both sides calling each other Nazis.

>>64361444
HATO

>>64360470
the m60 got the best ass in the business tho

>>64361456
I think the joke is that it is overrated even when considered to be shit.

>>64361502
This anon gets it. Even a sack of shit is more effective than it.

>>64361077
i heard a lot about it irl, but that might be because i worked on armored vehicles
and it is a mix of good and bad
also had the misfortune of working on the M60 AVLB
and i hope the layout was different on the actual tank
>>64361331
if the cold war had gone hot before the 80s
it would've faced T-64s and T-72s without the abrams
not to mention the reason it was nicknamed charred corpse transport by the israelis

>>64360462 (OP)
T-34. I just don't respect sloppy workmanship.

>>64360907
>Those feet touching
Oh my long rod

>>64361052
That's an Leclerc

>>64361598
Is this the new FAMAS?

>>64361624
No, they make a new one next year. Here hoping Ferrari won't shit the bed again(unlikely)

>>64360462 (OP)
>most overrated tank in history
it's the Tiger I and II, and it's not even close.
More than 3/4 of a century of being overhyped in anything from WW2 allied field reports to modern youtube videos.
But in reality they were objectively little more than morale boosters. Unrealiable, unsuccessful, and unnecessary.

Only the T-72/T-90 came closer. First being overhyped even in western media during the 80s, and later after being renamed we had to endure 25 years of it being shilled until Ukraine has justly destroyed its reputation forever.

>>64360599
the hetzer was ass but i think it was the cheapest way of making a gun carrier for the pak 39

>>64360595
Jeet despite using a literal soviet retarded tactic of frontal assault without air dominance on an open plain filled with mines, drones and artillery your pictured tank still managed to survive long enough for the tank to bail put, if this were some shitty T-series all you will have left is a half melted hull, a tossed turret and 3 charcoal human effigies

>>64361221
>.in
Masterful bait

>>64361634
It's literally the opposite. Revisionist faggots like you have tried to paint the Tigers as completely unusable and unreliable for the past 20+ years, despite how ridiculously effective they were despite their mechanical limitations.

>>64361598
next year is our year

>>64361810
>unusable
I didn't say that. I said unrealiable, unsuccessful, and unnecessary. Which are all correct.
>ridiculously effective
ONLY in eastern front defensive actions against retarded soviets, which could have been accomplished with much cheaper tools (hence unnecessary)
>despite their mechanical limitations
ah, yes. These nickipicky limitations that do not exist in videogames but mean life or death IRL, how silly of me

Fucking wehraboos, ffs

>>64360462 (OP)
tiger

Anybody else feel that the initially quite necessary backlash to the earlier Wheraboo overhype phase has by now reached absolutely hysterically comical levels?

>>64360909

>>64361052
>have another blowed up leopard II instead
that's an abrams you retard
even the filename says that

>>64361883
No, normies still believe that Tigers were the apex tanks of WW2.

>>64360462 (OP)
All of the T series.

>>64361134
Official russian narrative was to hype up western armor and weapons as wonder weapons. Just think of the promised rewards for destroyed units and the forty-ish false positives for himars and an (almost I think) equal amount for abrams, leos and, patriots etc.
Zigger stock will repeat anything the Zigger in chief says and lack any capability to reflect, as you can see in this thread

>>64361686
*tank crew

Tiger 1 It was said forever that it was impervious to all fire could slaughter any amount of tanks solo from miles away and they made 100 million of them and were unstoppable and only till the Germans ran out of fuel is then other Armor had a chance.

Sherman for sure.

>>64360592
>waah waah wheraboos
Reddit retard, you pretentious cunts have gone so far into the "Erm ackshually it's the myth of Blitzkirieg" that you now genuinely believe German tanks were complete garbage while the T-34 and Sherman were death machines.
Why was the K/D so much in favor of Germany, then?

>>64361420
I guess they're optimistic, no need to fire backward.

Saars... not like this...

>>64362798
>Why was the K/D so much in favor of Germany, then?
on the eastern front, maybe
but it was 2:1 in favor of the allies on the west

>>64363091
NTA.

On the Western Front in 1944–1945, 4,477 British Commonwealth tanks were destroyed, including 2,712 M4 Sherman tanks, 656 Churchill tanks, 609 Cromwell tanks, 433 M3 Stuart light tanks, 39 Cruiser Mk VIII Challenger tanks, 26 Comet tanks, 2 M24 Chaffee light tanks.[8]

From June 6, 1944 through May 15, 1945 for US tank and tank destroyer losses in the European Theater of Operations, United States Army (Western Front): around 7,000 (including 4,295–4,399 M4 tanks, 178 M4 (105mm howitzer), 1,507 M3 Stuart tanks and 909–919 tank destroyers, of which 540 M10 tank destroyers, 217 M18 Hellcat and 152 M36 tank destroyers).[9][10]

So about 11.5k allied tanks and tank destroyers lost. That's about ten times as many tanks as Germany had on the Western front in 1944. How you calculate a 2:1 k/d in favor of the allies is a mystery to me. And that's not even considering how many German tanks count as lost despite never seeing combat because they simply hadn't enough fuel. Or how many more German tanks were lost to allied air power vs allied tanks lost to German air power.

>>64360462 (OP)
T-34. It's not even a competition at this point. These mobile coffins have an almost mythical status, especially among the various multipolar cargo cults. While in reality it was a barely working, hard to operate, armor had actual gaps in it, etc.
But apparently it defeated Germany or some shit like that. Even though it did no such thing.

>>64363292
>How you calculate a 2:1 k/d in favor of the allies is a mystery to me.
well even ignoring your complete lack of german statistics, its because a disabled vehicle is different than a casualty.

>>64360462 (OP)
T72 probably deserves a claim here. It was meant to be the "cheap" tank and then ultimately wound up being the main tank, had a dangerous loading system, still had poor optics and especially reverse speed and turret angle traversal.

And the Americans, as usual, decided to flip out over it and develop the M1 Abrams in response, which does basically all the things better, with the crew being modestly (by tank standards) comfortable

>>64360837
>what ever happened to the t-14?
After 10 years of parades they need maintenance, but Russia can't afford to maintain them.

>>64363361
The Abrams is more of a T-80 equivalent, though.

>>64361420
lol

>>64363361
>with the crew being modestly (by tank standards) comfortable
Its actually an extremely comfortable tank. The only issue is the ergonomics of the loader having risk lower back injuries working the ammo storage during rapid fire but you cant really design around that.

overrated tanks:
Challenger 1 and 2, absolutely terrible designs in their basic layout and they have outdated technology which has been given completely undeserved hype by British state media. Challenger 1 and 2 both have dogshit armor layout, sensors, and ammo storage and outdated weapons.

Other NATO tanks have had their armor updated repeatedly while the challenger 2 just got external armor packages to try and address obvious deficiencies

underrated tanks:
modernized T-80bv and T-90m
Russia expands tanks like ammunition. Ukrainian units did a much better job preserving their captured Russian tanks by not being retarded with them. NATO tanks are certainly much more likely to save the crew, but they are about equal in fighting qualities (protection, mobility, firepower)

>>64366913
>they are about equal

>>64363346
>well even ignoring your complete lack of german statistics
You're welcome to contribute.

But ignoring your lack of any statistic, be it German or Allied:
I mentioned a ratio. But I made an error. It's about 7.4 times as many tanks. Germany had 1552 tanks on the Western front in June 44. And they weren't all combat ready.

>its because a disabled vehicle is different than a casualty.
But this skews actual k/d from combat even more in favor of the Germans.

>>64367084
yeah

>>64367121
>no vid
disappointing

>>64367147
Important the destruction seen in anon's pic was a result of Turkish aerial bombing to prevent tank capture

>>64367165
so much for being about equal, i guess

>>64367165
lmfao
what about this challenger 2?

Ukraine is much more careful with its tanks, but all tanks are vulnerable to anti-tank weapons... And Russian tanks have excellent frontal protection just like western tanks do.

>>64367182
>still no videos
weird

>>64360470
The M60 has a 12:1 k/d ratio. Not bad at all.

>>64367211
What's your argument?

>>64367237
why no videos?

>>64367254
Maybe because hundreds of times more Russian tanks have been used on both sides in Ukraine than western tanks?

>>64367269
your argument is there are no videos?
so much for excellent frontal protection in Russian tanks lol.

>>64367274
Why are you having a meltdown in this thread? it doesn't require 10 spam posts to say "I think Russian tanks don't have excellent frontal protection"

Also you could try comparing the actual designs and armor layouts

>>64367284
calm down, HIVan. you legit have no videos on your phone of western tanks being "equal" to russian?

>>64366913
Fucking retard.

>>64367284
>I think Russian tanks don't have excellent frontal protection
tbf they don't have any protection that would rate as excellent

>>64361442
There's no evidence that it wasn't penetrated. The crew allegedly returned to port under their own power but again, no proofs but a blown up tank.

>>64367298
>>64367211
you posted it twice lol

>>64360470
Overrated maybe among normalfags, but for people who have a bit of knowledge of tanks rightfully see it as mediocre/poor but serviceable in comparison to its contemporaries.

>>64367505
ziggers dying so nice, i posted it twice :)

>>64360462 (OP)
80% of online discussion about it has just been repeating German propaganda and "deathtraps". what do you mean?

Leo2 just because of its hull ammo rack.

>>64368113
normalfags don't even know what the M60 is

>>64362798
propaganda, misinterpretation of data, and defensive advantage

>>64362798
better tactics and training

>>64369002
Also likely mixing in tank losses from AT guns, mines, panzerfausts, etc when calculating the Allied loss number (unless that was included in "misinterpretation of data").

>>64360470
The M60 is responsible for thousands of Arab slavshit losses with a much lower casualty rate so it did it's job

>>64361420
It's impressive that this thing actually managed to be bad. They got engineering and design assistance from both the Leopard 2 and Challenger 1 teams. Even got the fancy tech and armor from the Brits and a German engine. Somehow it ended up worse than either.

>>64360462 (OP)
>M4 Sherman
I heard that the U.S. Ordnance Department was aware of the Sherman being a 'Tommy Cooker', and attempted to implement various measures to address this issue. The design team was led by Sheldon Rosenstein, a convicted child-beater, arsonist, and avid necrophiliac. Sheldon was reportedly pen-pals with Shiro Ishii, and Oskar Dirlewanger. When questioned about these letters outgoing to hostile countries, Sheldon replied that he was merely exchanging 'tips and tricks'. Sheldon's team designed a mechanism that would lock the crew hatches shut, thus trapping the crew, when smoke was detected inside the sherman after being penetrated and set alight. Not only that, but apparently there was also a following feature that was a re-take on the Brazen Bull. When the crew was burning to death, their screams would be amplified by speakers that projected outside the tank. The U.S. Ordnance Department justified these features by proclaiming that the Germans would be frightened by the hellish screams of the sherman crews being incinerated, and allied soldiers would be more motivated to fight hard, lest the same fate befall them. Sheldon also later devised a system that had a 1 in 59 chance of setting off an explosive charge in the ammunition storage every time the Sherman's engine was turned on. Supposedly, this was to 'test the crew's luck before battle'. This innovation was well-received by the U.S. Army, but was rejected for budgetary reasons. Upon receiving news of the Army's rejection, Sheldon bludgeoned his manservant to death with a fire iron in a fit of unstoppable rage. Years after the war, Sheldon tragically died in a fire, which he had started in a New York orphanage.

>>64363307
>>64360462 (OP)
I would specifically add to that wartime production T-34s. Soviets cut so many corners to increase production that it actively hindered the soviets. Those T-34s make german big cats seem reliable in comparison. All the nice ones soviets kept showing of were post war production and when build to spec the T-34 is fine-ish. But the stuff shit out during the war was absolute trash and somehow gets called best tank of the war. All that cost cutting did was allow germans to farm K:D as the war dragged on.

>>64361883
Oh I'm running with it to question the allies performance. If all german/italian/japanese stuff was so shit, how the fuck did this war last into 45? Especially after the US fully joined the advantage was so far in the allies side that I would call the axis powers the underdogs. Allies had more manpower, ressources etc. and still struggled. I bet half the wehraboo hyping was just allies trying to save face. I nominate WW2 allies as most overrated alliance in history.

>>64361420
>>64370429
Even the paint scheme was developed in Demark.

>>64361810
>mechanical limitations
they had a gun that was able to shoot hordes of shitty early t34s. just as every other german tank destroyer of the time that was sent to eastern front.
and yes, if you can't cross your own bridge because the tank is too heavy, it is unusuable.

>>64370456
I feel this is a bit too obvious to be entertaining.

>>64360977
>people have gassed up the tiger 2 as some kind super weapon

Yes like decades ago. Then came

>and its only recently that people realized that it sucked and acknowledged its mechanical issues

Which, as I said, is an overstatement of the issues. Due to it's heavy weight it had limitations on tactical mobility and increased burden on maintenance and lower reliability, but when you observe late 1944 and early 1945 data on German armoured units service/reliability rates, the Tiger II did only marginally worse than the Panzer IV.

It was a heavy tank, with a specialized, purpose built role, which came with certain limitations. For that purpose, the tiger II was fine. Not magically great, not useless. Fine.

>>64371056
To continue, Tiger II's reliability was HEAVILY dependent on the drivers training and experience level. When driven "correctly" Tiger II units were able to traverse up to 250km without any major breakdowns, which is a remarkable feat for a 70 ton tank made in late 1940's germany.

On the other hand, an untrained driver would manage to break down his tiger II within the first 50km of traverse. These drivers were of course far more common in Germany as they were rapidly losing the war and tank crews.

Source: experiences of the sPzabt. 503/FFH.

The credence of the later bovington tests are....meh at best in usefulness.

>>64363307
T-34/76 was a hunk of garbage, T-34/85 was tolerable with a terrifyingly powerful gun.

>>64371056
>late 1944 and early 1945 data on German armoured units service/reliability rates
the Wehrmacht was operating mostly on the defensive, and under enemy air superiority at the time

do you have any data specific to Tiger tank serviceability rates when the Wehrmacht was on the offensive? for example, early Barbarossa or during Wacht Am Rhein?

>>64370926
> if you can't cross your own bridge because the tank is too heavy, it is unusuable.

Just flat out incorrect. It limits its usefulness. It does not make it unusable.

You are engaging in the common mindset of Something being either perfect or utter shirt, nothing in between

>>64371160
I've abandoned my ww2 historynerd days 10 years ago, so no. But its probably out there.

But one cant exactly examine the reliability of the Tiger II by comparing it to the reliability of panzer IV's in 1941. The external variables are just too different.

>>64371175
I was thinking rather of comparing loss and kill rates of the Tiger series on the defence and on the offensive

>>64371160
Remember there was data from North Africa that didn't paint a pretty picture. The short and curlys was that it was unmitigated disaster whenever the Tiger was used on the offensive.

>>64371244
>data from North Africa
I don't recall Tigers being used any time before Second El Alamein, at which time the tide turned hard against Rommel no matter what panzer model, so I would discount performance data after that time
(before anyone screams about that, I'm not a wehraboo, I'm just trying to find a balanced view of things)

German heavy tanks, operated as independent heavy tank battalions, would have had a fundamental advantage over medium tanks in terms of maintenance and supply.

>>64360599
>armor isn’t nearly as good as it looks
The armor was fine, don't repeat the dumbass fake story about how it's armor was made of low quality stuff.
It used bog standard RHA for the time, the sides were just paper thin.

>>64360462 (OP)
B1 or S35.
They might get 1/1000th of the attention of German, Soviet or whatever tanks, but they're almost universally glazed despite being fundamentally flawed pieces of shit.
>>64360592
>Got the americans and to some degree bongs+allies into germany
Overwhelming disparity in industry, natural resources and having the two biggest navies in the world got the Allies into Germany. The US armored forces could've been equipped with nothing but French tanks and they still would've won.

>>64360797
You can see the corpse on the commander fly off to the right while the camera pans out. Horrifying.

>>64367084
What's even funnier is all those Azov faggots got legitimately hung in Mariupol and the one's that escape have been threatening the big jew Zelenski's life if he pulls out of the war
>only bots and Israelis disagree

>>64367274
>>I play warthunder as Germans/USA exclusively and cry that theyre the two most grind heavy trees then go on /k/ while I'm constantly dead in game to rant in ukraine threads
It's almost like magic

Any of the german big cats and the t34

>>64361598
Lechuck?

>>64367182
>what about this challenger 2?

What about it?

>>64360592
>I feel like there was a spew of wehraboos crying how P4 would've saved germany if it wasn't for them pesky big cats
There wasn't.
Stop making up people who don't exist, anon. The Panther was the right choice (the Chieftain agrees).

t. Wehraboo

>>64369002
>defensive advantage
Germany's numbers were great on the offense in Russia too.

>>64375586
>Russia
beginner mode

>>64375586
>depleted officer corps
>lack of decent tanks
>lack of equipment
>completely unprepared despite knowing exactly what would happen.

Because of repeated deadly battles with the Panzer III and Panzer IV, by the time the number of Panthers was sufficient, there were no experienced crews to man them.

T34 has to be top for being over rated.
Early T34
>No radios
>Dog shit cannon/s
>Dog shit transmission
>Dog shit ergos all around
Late T34
>Better cannon
>Dog shit shell construction
>Better ergonomics for the turret crew
>Still the same shit transmission for the driver to fight with
>More radios
>Still ome of the worst radio sets fielded for tanks in any significant numbers
The only thing the Soviets did well with that tank was produce an assload of them understanding that slowing production to solve issues was more damaging than producing it with all the faults and issues

>>64360592

The only thing that would have saved Germany was the German people overthrowing Hitler in 1939 rather than letting him drag them into yet another ruinous war

t. Fallschirmjäger appreciator

>>64362798
>Why was the K/D so much in favor of Germany, then?

>25% Germans shoving radios into literally EVERY vehicle
>25% Germans having more combat experience and being better organized than everyone else (at the start)
>25% Soviets shoving poorly trained crews into poorly built shitboxes
>25% Germans and Allies using different methods of calculating losses (Germans only counted K-Kills on their loss charts, Soviets and Western Allies would count any vehicle that was out-of-service, regardless of the cause or its actual state of repair, as a loss)

>>64361810
Shut up, wehraboo faglord. The panther was more effective than the Tiger in every way. It was a waste of material and time in the end and is definitely the most overrated tank of all time.

>>64372571
what blew up this time?

>>64372592

Truly the power of vatnik cope. They have no videos and they can't get why their own tanks buy it by the thousands.

Gonna go against most of the thread here and say Pershing tanks. Made directly as a response to German armor but so few saw combat it was basically pointless.
The Sherman did everything an expeditionary force wanted. The Pershing was a meme too focused on Tigers and King Tigers

>>64361420
>Paki arrives to ill speak the Arjun

Shit talker going to talk

>>64361240
This is actually why the only answer to 'What is a good tank' is whatever is fielded by the US. Its the only nation that always will have air dominance, sea dominance, and local land dominance no matter where its engaged. Europe has the money and technical expertise, but not the airframes or tanks in inventory for local dominance in a conflict, and no fleets capable of long-term sustained conflict in hostile waters. Russia, China and Norkistan are barely even countries, let alone coordinated military forces.

>>64376164
dont forget the shit armour on the first ones. The 20mm auto cannon was enough to knock them out in significant numbers

>>64378099
Surely you can cite a source for that claim.

>>64380811
He probably meant the gaps in the armour some models had, especially as the "fuck QC gimme tanks" standard got applied to T34 production lines.

>>64378099
>The 20mm auto cannon was enough to knock them out in significant numbers
From what I have read the 20mm holes in the sides of knocked out T-34's at the start of operation barabossa is actually the 20mm core of 37mm and 50mm APCR rounds. Which speaks volume on how close the german tanks and anti tank guns got to the T-34 to knock it out and how deaf and blind the T-34 crew was.

>>64380899
There are some absolute shit T-34 that got built but I doubt they sucked so bad that 20mm auto cannons could kill them. The T-34 was designed from the start to resist 37mm and 45mm anti tank rounds.

>https://t34inform.ru/photo/photo_Album_T-34-MZ-04-1941.html
>https://t34inform.ru/photo/photo_Album_T-34-ANIOP-1940.html
Going by pictures of the early T-34 being tested ballistically then the 37mm and short 50mm is no bueno if you want to kill a T-34 consistently, 20mm is absolute no. You want something big and high velocity hence the germans mounting the long 50mm and 75mm gun after watching deaf and blind T-34's drive around getting hit by 37mm anti tank guns and then driving into german truck convoy. There is a reason why there are stories of T-34's and KV-1's driving into german trucks convoys to start with mainly that anything that was not a T-34 or KV-1 died the moment a german gun looked at it. The whole horde of soviet pre war inventory never got the chance to even see a german truck convoy because there is a 37mm hole in the drivers body from a range of 800 meters. (T-26, BT-5, BT-7, T-28, T-35 and T-60 all dead to 37mm guns from any angle)

The absolute worst year for T-34 quality was in 1942 which is also the year where more and more german 75mm and long 50mm guns got to the battlefield. Instead of the deaf and blind T-34 driving around getting plinked by 37mm guns they just died from one well placed 75mm round fired from a stug they never even saw 800 meters away.

>>64376187
>ICH WILL UNREAL TOURNAMENT SPIELEN!

>>64360462 (OP)
T-34 in context of Lend Lease, shit welds, tiny turret, un-modularity and obsolete suspension.

>>64360824
Panther was 30% cheaper than IVs, it was a necessity however you skin that cat.

>>64367091
>But this skews actual k/d from combat even more in favor of the Germans.
lol and lmao

>>64360824
>Comet was the closed beta

>>64381369
Try reading.

>>64360462 (OP)
tiger for sure

>>64360497
The IS-2 was far from overrated. Sure it was a giant fkn turd to drag on the battlefields but did an exceptional job at devouring Panzers.

>>64360494
Panzer IV is overrated above the mountaintop.

>>64360491
Definitely the t34

>>64382177
lol

>>64380899
I'm betting he meant 37mms being sort of effective up close and from the sides and the handful of cases where they pelted a blind tank so much from the front something eventually did break/the crew just bailed.