Thread 64377869

Was the US wrong to adopt the Krag Jorgensen?

>>64377869 (OP)
Not really, and it started getting phased out by the 1903 at a more or less appropriate time too.
My knowledge of 1880s bolt actions might be a bit spotty but I can't recall any 1880s bolt action rifles being significantly superior to the Krag Jorgensen, other than maybe the Lee Metford.
Even still, that doesn't mean the Krag wasn't perfectly serviceable, and using a different gun might have still had the same outcome of being replaced by a Mauser derivative considering the British nearly did the same thing.

No, though I really wish the competitor had won, the Savage was slick, and the unique magazine and lockup for a levergun might've actually kept it relevant longer.

>>64377958
Lever actions have several disadvantages in military service, much harder to operate while prone and the action is also more fragile. For cavalry units they worked well enough but they weren't ever a good infantry option

>>64377869 (OP)
No, it was a sensible decision at the time but I think the Lee-Navy was a better design that should've become standard. However seeing how many armies moved from 6.5s to 7.62s due to it being a lacking MG round I feel like maybe we made the right choice in picking a 30 caliber

>>64378031
>>64377958
My dumbfuck question of the day: how did caplock muzzleloaders survive so many years as primary infantry weapons in major powers after the invention of the metallic cartridge?

The minute these things showed up it should have been GG, into the trash it goes, they are sooo superior

>>64378075
Smallarms development was going at a lightning rate in the late 1800s and early 1900s, not a lot of governments wanted to take the risk of going all-in on something that might be obsolete in a handful of years.

>>64378075
>>64378090
You also have to consider that slower forms of communication and transportation meant bureaucracy and the testing process were much slower moving.

>>64377869 (OP)
>Was the US wrong to adopt the Krag Jorgensen?
Yes. Charger loading was demonstrably better and the Mauser was a stronger, simpler action to make.

>>64377869 (OP)
Bolt Action general?

>>64378125
The Krag did have chargers, the US just didn't seem to build them in great number. True on the action being weak though.

I am oddly prepared for exactly this thread

>>64378132
i hope so. Bolt Actions are sexy.

>>64378137
>Lee Navy
>with bayonet
Fuck me I'm jealous. She's beautiful, anon.

>>64378135
Mauser charger is still way simpler than the Krag's.
>we could have adopted a rim-less 7.62x53mm cartridge 60 years before 7.62NATO

>>64378075
speed of inventions and innovation =/= speed of government procurement process

>>64378075
institutional inertia but mostly money

>>64378137
>no Spanish Mauser
0/10 collection. Hop on the USS Maine and see me after class.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't one of the requirements the ability to interrupt the magazine and turn the rifle single shot? IIRC there was this belief in US command that troops would just waste ammo if it was easy to shoot or they were issued a lot of it, and seeing how this was pre Ice Cream barge levels of logistics I can understand their concern, even if I disagree with it.

>>64377869 (OP)
30-40Krag is unironically an excellent chambering for a Ruger No.1 or a break-action hunting rifle. I'd take it over 308.

>Was the US wrong to adopt the Krag Jorgensen?
In hindsight, yeah. At the time, maybe. Ignoring the gate-loading stuff, 7.65x53Argentine should have been a wake up call regarding the rim.

As for people who mention spitzers, literally they had come out the same year as the Spanish-American war, nothing the US could have done about that.

Bolt Rifles were the last SOVLfilled guns.

>>64378281
>Bolt action
>A bolt, a housing, a magazine spring, some trigger elements
>Automatic rifle
>A whole fucking machine with tons of parts, how do they work, what do they do, I don't know, complex as fuck

>>64377869 (OP)
It was a good rifle for its time, but a better rifle came soon. It happens.

>>64378150
TY anon. its a labor of love to get the thing shooting as the Navy intended but its a great piece to have

>>64378281
TRVTH

>>64377869 (OP)
No. the action was very smooth and soldiers could toss loose rounds into the magazine.

>>64377958
Savage was still making 99s up until the early 2000s.

>>64377869 (OP)
In hindsight and taking everything at the time into account yes. But given the circumstances, the people in charge and current understanding of doctrine it was a perfectly adequate choice

>>64378279
Yes, magazine cut offs were a thing since the 1860s so there were more than enough examples out there

>>64377869 (OP)
I feel worse move was the French going into WW1 with the Lebel.

>>64377869 (OP)
this shit was adopted over not only the mauser but the lee, explain that

>>64382754
it proved to be inferior to Mauser in the end

>>64382754
dont forget the lawsuit over it not being an American made design.

>>64382754
magazines bad

>>64378279
>>64380286
Mag cutoffs were still around for SMLE No.1 Mk.3s, with the same ideology that troops would waste ammo. The 1/3s had a detachable box mag chained to the trigger guard (so it dont get lost) and volley sights for long range bombardment. (The cutoff and the volley sights were ditched in the mk3*s and up). The mk3* started production in early 1915 iirc, because early ww1 was a meat grinder.

>>64378075
Same way 30.06 has been around for so long. Truckloads of already made ammo.

>>64377938
Wasnt the moist nugget a bit better all around? I wanna say that 30.06 was a US attempt at copying x54R, but using a rimless cart to better serve the copied Mauser action.

Im probably wrong on all counts, but im inebriated and want to argue.

>>64382831
>I wanna say that 30.06 was a US attempt at copying x54R
It was an evolution of the rimless 30-40 experiments which had a base in Col. Schmidt's work.

>>64382754
>but the lee
Ummmm fuck the Brits.
>Star Spangled Banner blares loudly

>>64378198
>Mauser charger is still way simpler than the Krag's.
How? Krag is
>open door
>add bullets

>>64382848
Compare pic to the contraption in >>64378135

>>64382871
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycyph7OzjgQ
I thought you meant simpler to operate

>>64382890
also, you could technically use mosin clip as a loader
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JCQTIu_rVHI
and there're variant that came with bridge for clip
wonder why they didn't modify the Krag instead of making new rifle

>>64378075
Blackpowder pistols remained in significant circulation through the first half of the 20th century in the USA. Smokeless powder was the newfangled thing, black powder would've been cheaper enough to be viable for many use cases.

>>64382765
It was clearly inferior in both action and cartridge to the 1889 and 1891 Mausers. The US adopted the Krag in 1892.
>doctrinal justifications
The US and Denmark were the only nations other than the origin country to make that mistake.

>>64382900
>wonder why they didn't modify the Krag instead of making new rifle
Because the new rifle was much better.

>>64382831
>I wanna say that 30.06 was a US attempt at copying x54R
The Russians impressed no-one.
>>64382839
>It was an evolution of the rimless 30-40 experiments
Wrong base diameter.

They looked at 7x57, looked at 7.65Arg, approximately copied the bolt face diameter of both, made it longer and more powerful, and used .308 as the bullet diameter for convenience because they already had a bunch of 30-40 machinery.

What's your favorite bolt action? Mine is the R700

>>64378279
>this was pre Ice Cream barge levels of logistics
Prior to the Haber-Bosch process, nitre extraction put a hard cap on the scale of munitions production. Remember that 80% of it came from a bunch caves in Chile, filled with centuries of petrified bat shit. So the fear of ammo shortages due to waste was not unfounded.

>>64377869 (OP)
What it was at the time, kind of a middle-ground of not best, not worst with a whole lot of things going on around the world of 'big ol shootas' and while everyone involved might have wanted a bit better, in service longer.
Sometimes that doesn't work out in hindsight.

>>64383093
Most of the Weatherby actions are pretty sweet, the Model 70 Winchester is quite a nice action as well.

>>64383119
>Most of the Weatherby actions are pretty sweet,
For those prices they better be

>>64383127
The Japanese made Vanguard actions can usually be alright in prices if you hunt around 2nd hand for old boomer shooters. Most of them didn't get a huge amount of use and folded 1000x wapanese accuracy with teeny tiny little hands in the temple.
Good way to get a 300mag (in either WIN or WBY)

>>64383093
Ruger American

>>64383093
>What's your favorite bolt action?
United States Magazine Rifle, Caliber .30, Model of 1903.

>>64383093
awp maybe but its my most expensive

>>64383093
scoot

>>64377938
>t I can't recall any 1880s bolt action rifles being significantly superior to the Krag Jorgensen, other than maybe the Lee Metford.
If we consider a rifle that can be loaded fast, works well with smokeless powder and doesn't have a bolt flying in the shooter's face, Gewehr 88 and Mannlicher seem like a good alternative.

>>64383954
styyr?

>>64383093
Mosin and 98 variations. I'd love a chance to try other classic military rifles like Carcano, SMLE and others, but I doubt it's coming any time soon.
Currently a gun company that employs me on the expos (usually I work at the gun store in the same holding) is releasing a new hunting rifle - modern mainstream, really: 3 lugs, Rem700 type scope holes, detachable mag, stainless barrel and action, no open sights (for now), only .308 (for now). I think I'll buy that one if the offer is right, since I get the employee discount.

>>64383111
bro just let piss soaked straw out in the sun its that easy

>>64378137
>I am oddly prepared to storm the beach at Guantanamo

>>64378031
I would never call the Savage 99 fragile, in fact it's probably a stronger action than the Krag. Like you said, the prone shooting issue was big. However I think a bigger issue is the difficulty in cleaning and maintenance, it would either have to be cleaned from the muzzle, or stock removed and bolt removal. That's a strong ask for the average infantryman, they will lose the tools or parts of gun.

>>64378075
Metallic cartridges existing doesn't mean they are immediately fit for mass adoption. You need sufficient industrial production capacity and quality control, and both at prices that are still affordable enough.

And evne then, what are you gonna do with all your old guns and ammo? Just tossing it all immediately would be a huge waste.

>>64383901
NEITHER WORDS NOR PICTURES CAN ADEQUATELY EXPRESS MY UTTER, ABJECT DISGUST AT THIS ABOMINATION!

>>64378075
>caplock muzzleloaders
they didnt in the way youre thinking. When matallic cartridges arrived it was easier to convert said muzzleloaders to striker fired breechloaders such as the Snider and the Trapdoor. Its the move from these converted single shots to magazine fed bolt actions that took longer than it should

>>64383093
My AXSR

>>64377869 (OP)
dont leave

>>64386103
I feel like Krags are one of the most sporterized guns ever. right up there with 03s

Won this rifle this year (optic last year). 6.5 mememore

>>64388418
BatGOD..

>>64385679
>cleaning and maintenance
this. Lever actions are too mechanically complex to field in large numbers to conscripts. Bolt actions are objectively superior from a logistics perspective and I say that as a guy who loves lever gats
>validation not required

Bolt action bros, are new Remington 700s good to go or are they still ass even after it started up again?

>>64389872
What is it?

>>64378075
Money manufacturing and reliability.
Repeating cartridge firing weapons were vastly more expensive than muzzle loaders, took longer to make and had numerous issues with reliability and robustness in field conditions even when well maintained. The cost of outfitting an whole army would have eaten most countries finances, governments didn't have strong tax bases in the 1800s.
Plus the standard of most troops training was quite poor.
It took several decades of developments for them to get to a point where a military would pay attention. And even then they were limited by black powder being shitty for repeaters.

>>64383901
What a beautiful gun.
>>64385721
Le collector (hoarder) cringe

>>64382831
>Wasnt the moist nugget a bit better all around?
No.
retard.

>>64382644
And WWII

>>64390823
>Lever actions are too mechanically complex to field in large numbers to conscripts.
Have some humility and knowledge before pretending you know what you're talking about

>>64390858
new ones are fine, still expensive for what they are

>>64389800
Definitely more than 1903s. Only the 1917 is worse

>>64389800
i had to find the parts to unsporterize mine
>>64391731
i see full stock m1917 way more often

>>64378031
>>64377958
They were dumb to refuse lever actions for supposedly being difficult to operate while prone. Levers aren’t any harder than bolts to be operated while prone. Any difficulty to operating the lever could be overcome by rotating the rifle slightly and you can tell from the picture of that savage 99 that the lever swings about as low as the bottom of the buttstock. How is that supposed to hit the ground if the rifle is on your shoulder while prone?

Using 30-30 lever action rifles in WW1 or the Spanish American War would have been a complete game changer. Officers could be issued 44-40 carbines and revolvers or something too. Adversaries would be laid out just upon looking at the pure Americana on display. The real problem with adopting lever actions is the cost of the lever rifle versus much less cool and concerningly european bolt action rifle.

>>64391703
We’re aware of the lever nugget. The logistics of Imperial Russia should not be used as a positive example. What he said was correct.

>>64391703
they took those as a last resort

>>64391703
yes, and that example proved it. You played yourself anon

>>64383093
Mas 36

Why do people hunt with WW1/WW2 bolt actions

>>64392496
Why not?

>>64392496
They were very cheap surplus once upon a time.

>>64392496
because

>>64392496
Because there's millions of them and they're still sub-200$ guns in Leafland while being able to take down moose or bear.

Considering the other options at the time, yes. Besides being incredibly smooth and aesthetic, it's a stupid gun.

>>64391047
stag arms "pursuit" 20" in 6.5 mememore. Thing weighs a ton for a rifle you're supposed to "pursue" game with in the woods.

>>64392496
Boomers aren't people

>>64377869 (OP)
no