Thread 64382163

How is it after 60+ years we still can't compete with the RPG-7?

>even baits are trash quality
What did kill this board?

>>64382163 (OP)
in what way is the west unable to compete with the rpg7?

>>64382172
cheap mass produced shit

>>64382171
Ukraine war (and potentially palestine) brought more people into the sphere of militaria, and more importantly brought many people solely interested in the political aspects of it, and even more importantly brought russian botfarms into the same spheres.

>>64382178
Russia doesn't pay its workers

>>64382163 (OP)
The RPG-2 and 7 are some of my favorite weapons of all time but there's tons of superior western options.

>>64382163 (OP)
You have to consider the weapon system as a whole. That includes its suicidal operator.

>>64382163 (OP)
I don’t understand the question. In what way are we unable to compete?

>>64382163 (OP)
>comparing grenade launchers and a recoilless rifle with a rocket launcher

>>64382163 (OP)
40mm is peak because of picrel, plus every launcher chambered in it is kino

>>64382163 (OP)
>compete
Carl Gustav outperformed the russkie garbage since before it was even invented.

>>64382163 (OP)
The US makes an RPG-7 equivalant and everyone who has used it says that it blows the Soviet/Russian made ones out of the water

>>64382163 (OP)
Someone post the rekt video

>>64382354
>heavy af
>virtually unused in the field

Try again

>>64382403
You ignored what he said though. The original Carl Gustav outperformed the RPG in every way, but was heavier. Western forces also deployed disposable light AT weapons that were much lighter than the RPG with similar performance to it (except for accuracy, where they were much more accurate in practice).

Current Carl Gustav is lighter than RPG and more performant in every way.

>>64382163 (OP)
I notice a distinct lack of Javelin in that image.

>>64382195
why can't the west achieve this feat?

>>64382365
this?

>>64382362
>take Soviet thing
>add ergonomics
>it now works better
What a weird turn of events.

>>64382478
You might say the blast got back at him.

>>64382163 (OP)
One hell of an anti personal weapon, not really useful against modern tanks nowadays though.

>>64382365
Don't lose your head.

>>64382403
>virtually unused
We have actual footage of Carl Gustavs killing T-90s.

>>64382478
>>64382515
How?

>>64382561
soviet engineering

>>64382561
the first one was faulty ammo.
I don't know about the second one, probably the same.

>>64382163 (OP)
M72 LAW and the AT4 are both better than the RPG-7 for squad-level AT, since you dont need to compromise the rest of their kit as much to use it

>>64382561
most likely an extremely cheap copies
the original soviet rockets had a very high quality as shown by this guy disassembling one to repurpose the explosive

>>64382569
Second one is the tube splitting pretty much right in front of the dude's face.

>>64382478
This dude got extremely lucky the tube blew out where it had been rewelded and gave the gas an escape route. Otherwise it probably would have blown his head off like the other one.

>>64382561
I worked for a destructive devices manufacturer. That wasn't the RPG, his head just did that. You're welcome.


No but in reality it's really easy to fuck up the blast chamber because your initiator is going to be literal millimeters away from unsafe operation with the solid propellant, I was always scared to touch shit. Even well made grenades are scary as fuck. It's not like the movies where you just throw them in a pocket and forget about it, you have to store the fuse away from the charge until you're ready to use it because of how volatile these things are.

>>64382403
>virtually unused in the field
every infantry company gets a CG in the weapons platoon

>>64382441
>six figures per shot
>used to take out infantry during GWOT for lack of real targets
>world supply completely exhausted within months of Ukraine War

NGMI

>>64382573
One shot, shit sights, underpowered and pressed into roles they weren't meant for (a recurring theme for all of these desu)

>>64382561
The "chamber" pressure inside the tube, from the recoilless booster-charge lighting off and shoving the grenade out the tube is on par with a full power 12ga shotgun.
If there's an obstruction in the tube that prevents the pressure from venting backwards, or just a structural weakness in the tube, it'll burst.

>>64382171
The Ukraine war turned this board into an extension of reddit. The first time I saw somebody freely admit they were noguns and not get the shit smoked out of them I knew it was over.

>>64382467
you need an incredibly passive population who are too afraid to fight back.

>>64382569
2nd one was faulty ammo due to reproduction error, funnily enough, the tube was re-welded and the it blew out, in a way making the explosion much less a pipe bomb.

>>64383047
>world supply completely exhausted within months of Ukraine War
Western world wasn't in war mode, why sit on a mountain of Javalins when you have a lot of other anti-tank capabilities?

>>64382171
>What did kill this board?
Same thing that killed the rest of the internet: giving phones to turd-worlders.

>>64382592
>Hit on the nose.
Nah, man I'll pass on that.

>>64382741
it was fucking REWELDED?

>>64383182
Yep. Usually not a problem, but the ammo was ghetto-rigged by some old Bubba that didn't fully understand what he was doing.
Basically, rather than using long thin leafs of smokeless propellant for the booster, he used pucks of compressed black powder.
When one of these boosters lit off, the rear half the the booster blew off the rather than immediately light off, and that big chunk of black-powder pucks clogged the rear end of the launch tube, leading to a catastrophic pressure spike, rupturing the tube at the weakest point, which was the welded patch.

Weirdly, the fact that the launcher was a POS re-weld might have saved the guy.
Because of the location of the patch welded in the tube, it dumped most of the blast downwards into his arms.
That caused some nasty burns, but it wasn't immediately fatal.

If the launch tube had been just a little bit stronger, the whole thing could have exploded outwards in every direction like a big pipe bomb, decapitating the guy and throwing shrapnel everywhere.

>>64383114
>>64383047
The US had at least 20k before Ukraine and has only sent 10k there.

As usual faggots don't understand that the US is sitting on millions of shells and is not sending them to Ukraine because it is illegal to deplete the stockpile after WW2, it would require congressional authorization to remove more shit from the stockpile that what is replaced by new production. Rather than make a ton of shit at one the US slowly iterates its munitions over decades to keep them up to date and gives out the old shit.

>>64383047
>One shot
The complete launcher weighs less than a single reload for an RPG.
>underpowered
M72 has more penetration than anything except for modern ammo, which it has far more range than. Had more penetration than the RPG for the first 10 years it existed, even once the RPG got new warheads (each time reducing its range and accuracy even further and increasing their weight) the practical penetration remained the same since they could both penetrate the front of APCs and IFVs or the side hull and back of MBTs but not the frontal arc. The attempts to make RPG capable of dealing with MBTs frontally haven't worked and have been comical in what they've done to rocket weight, velocity and practical accuracy.
>shit sights
Lmao, you've never fired either. The sights are fine.
>and pressed into roles they weren't meant for (a recurring theme for all of these desu)
The M72 never was and still isn't. It's a multipurpose disposable system. It's meant to be used for popping field fortifications as well as self defence against AFVs.

>>64383047
>One shot
which also means that its a much lighter weapon that doesnt compromise the users mission as a rifleman
the LAWs are able to be held loose at the squad level and just assigned when needed, whereas the RPG requires a designated gunner and loader in a soviet rifle squad

>and pressed into roles they weren't meant for
M72 LAW has never deviated from its role as squad-level firepower, which it excels at
unlike the RPG, the gunner is usually expected to carry both a rifle and his RPG, which is actually a fairly large burden
and the bulky ammo needs its own ammo bearer, so 2 members of the squad are already hindered in their role

>>64382171
import reddit, become reddit

>>64382426
The original Carl Gustaf 84mm weighed fucking 30lbs, and it's cool to me that the current Model 4 version is now down to 15lbs.

>>64383047
Tell us about the accuracy of an RPG when it's not a perfectly still day. Tell us about the muzzle velocity of an RPG and how much drop compensation you need as a result. Tell us how many seconds sooner an M72A3-7 impacts a target at 200m compared to an RPG-7 firing either PG-7VR or even PG-7VL ammo. Tell us how much one RPG rocket weighs compared to an M72. Tell us how much the combat load of an RPG gunner and assistant gunner is each, and what rifle such a gunner carries. Show us the uncomfortable cuck backpack that RPG gunners need to wear.

>>64383367
And the M72 weighed 2.3kg at the time. An RPG weighed 6.5kg unloaded and each rocket weighed 2.5kg. Where are you going with this? The West had a much more capable and much heavier version and a similarly capable and much lighter version - the best of both worlds.

>>64383367
lightweight optimization does that
mazda did it with the ND MX5 using "gram strategy" by tracking and lightening the weight of every single component to find where they could save weight to keep it at around the same number as the original NA MX5

>>64383374
>Where are you going with this?
Nowhere? I just think it's cool.

>>64383394
It is. As a user, even M3 was insane.

>>64382171
Brown internet theory

>>64383402
Is the subtle onset of CTE worth it? It seems like it would be.

>>64382592
I have two questions
1. why use a hand saw instead of an angle grinder to make the job easier
2. isn't there a risk of the explosive going off because of the hammer banging on it?

We even sent some to Ukraine.

Its objectively mid because its massive and most of the ammo is some cold war surplus that's not going to pop an Abrams. The Russians use an upgraded version for a reason.

>>64382163 (OP)
>How is it after 60+ years the russians haven't come up with anything better than the RPG-7?

FTFY.

>>64383641
1 a hacksaw never runs out of power, doesn't create sparks, doesn't make noise and is very easy to store along with their blades. in the battlefield armies carry hand tools not gay electric zip zap guns for this reason.
2 explosives are usually inert until the fuze activates, exactly why the dude removed the fuze first. without a fuze explosives can barely combust and as a matter of fact claymores have a "don't eat it you stupid fuck" warning because us troops would open them, take a bit of the filler out with a knife and then burn it to heat food which would lead to both gas and food poisonings.

>>64383587
Man fucking timing, I just refreshed this page after 2 hours and you replied seconds before.
>Is the CTE worth it?
It's really hard to know. It's so much better in practice than all the alternatives and there are so many things it's useful for that are so important that the answer is a solid maybe.

The worst thing is that the CTE is what makes it good. 90% of the reason that CG is so much more useful for so many more things than its competitors is that not dicking around with a rocket keeps everything simple, easy, intuitive and accurate. Having 290ms muzzle velocity and no delayed sustainer motor or fins is infinitely easier to get right and more useful in practice than having fins, 115ms muzzle velocity and a sustainer motor that gets you to 290ms at 500m.

The other 10% is just that it already has all the rounds that do all the things. There's nothing else out there that brushes elbows with a javelin for ambushing armor but can also put a mortar line out of a job fragging troops in defilade and putting up illum but can also fill in for a light tank in a pinch and mousehole a building for entry or reduce a bunker..... It's insane...

Maybe if SMAW got serious love and got a real portfolio of utility rounds, and cost per round drastically came down from scale? But I suspect SMAW has an even bigger CTE problem.

>>64382163 (OP)
They took a different route of interchangeable warheads. For some of the larger stuff they had to make a big launcher but yes it's a king tier design and it was the correct choice.

>>64382172
>Craps out the law rocket

>>64383685
>weighs less than a single rocket for the RPG and 1/3 what an RPG itself weighs
>penetrates more armor than an RPG until 1973
>penetrates the same amount of armor in practice until the end of the Cold War
>in good RPG weather has the same hit probability as an RPG at all ranges despite having no telescopic sight
>in bad RPG weather has a much better hit probability than an RPG at all ranges
Rocket launchers for infantry were a titanic mistake, and the complete superiority of pure recoilless rifles was clear right from the start.

>>64383683
objectively garbage normie-tier opinion based on normie-tier mistruths

>>64383701
rocket launchers are fine as platoon/company level assets, where you have dedicated teams that are assigned when needed

>>64383660
The RPG-7 is still kind of adequate, but there's certainly room for upgrades. Warsaw Pact militaries also did have weapons like the RPG-18, and the RPG-76 (a folding rocket launcher), and the RPG-18 in particular still sees use today.

>>64383682
I know that counter charges get used to kill off most of the backblast on some weapons and munitions, older ones like the Panzerfaust 3 uses a brick of compressed plastic chips, later variants of the AT4 and M72 LAW use salt water. There's also the fabled IRA launcher using packets of biscuits as a counter charge.

Do things like that reduce the concussive effect to any degree, or is it a losing proposition from that point of view and its sole benefit is reduction in backblast?

>>64383685
A weapon so convenient and useful that the Russians made a close copy of it, variants of which they still use to this day.

>>64383087
This. Nogunz isn't an insult anymore because these leftists and eurofags are proud not to own guns. There's more of them than us now.

>>64383716
>rocket launchers are fine as platoon/company level assets, where you have dedicated teams that are assigned when needed
This is your GWOT COIN experience talking. Re-evaluate based on current projected engagements.

>>64382171
internet research agency , also known as glavset

>>64383758
>This is your GWOT COIN experience talking
thats been the case since rocket launchers existed
they were primarily issued to the weapons company and treated as specialist weapons, except in the case of armroed infantry who had vehicles to hold them

and its pretty logical, you leave heavy weapons to dedicated teams to use them while individual squads get lighterweight weapons that dont hinder their job as a rifleman

>>64383716
They are inferior to recoilless rifles.
>>64383745
>Do things like that reduce the concussive effect to any degree, or is it a losing proposition from that point of view and its sole benefit is reduction in backblast?
We don't know enough about how CG induces CTE to know. The only "real" study done specifically on CG found that it doesn't even cause any damage, but it was run by the Swedes and I don't trust it because they have a vested interest and also because in current year nobody should ever trust any study that hasn't been replicated. There are already 84mm confined space rounds that IIRC use this, but they have worse velocity and even if they did prevent CTE then best case I don't think you could apply it to something like illum and worst case I think they'd negatively change the operating parameters for other rounds for eg max elevation or depression. Losing velocity stings anyway though, reference my earlier comments about why it's good in the first place.

>>64383770
Are you saying that war never changes?

>>64383701
>penetrates more armor than an RPG until 1973
The early M72 penetrated 200 mm vs 280 of the PG-7, the difference was due to diameter. Later on they are comparable in penetration / diameter.
And the RPG-7 has longer effective range and it's reloadable, guess what, reloadable rocket launchers tends to be heavier. A comparable weapons is the RPG-18 or RPG-22.
People trying to argue a RPG is something complex and that soviets couldn't make is beyond retarded. Their shortcomings were different, retard.

>>64383716
>rocket launchers
>>64383770
>rocket launchers
You are a retard. Most of the weapons you think are rocket launchers are actually recoilless rifles either literally or for all practical purposes. Recoilless rifles like the M72, Carl Gustav, or ones that essentially act as them like the Bazooka or Panzerschrek, are good. Rocket launchers, like the RPG-7, are dogshit.

>>64383780
>Recoilless rifles like the M72
the M72 is definitely not rifled
its also a rocket launcher itself, since the projectile is powered by a rocket booster

The RPG-7 has dogshit accuracy at range compared to contemporary western recoilless rifles, made even worse in any kind of wind
>>64383776
Soviets maybe could have made a better weapon but they didn't want to because they liked the economics of scale of the PG-7 rounds, which is why they didn't want to mass-produce the HE-frag rounds either, as they felt it was better to just have more of the less effective rounds available. PG-7VR and the RPG-29 are late cold war effor to produce something more effective and that went nowhere.
Also, the RPG-18 has a serious fault where it can't be stowed again once extended
>>64383780
>>64383786
Recoilless rifles and rockets that burn out entirely in the tube are largely similar in use, a sustainer rocket like with RPG-7 is what causes the accuracy issues

>>64383159
The first thing he takes out is the detonator, he’s realistically hitting a piece of metal with shitty soviet explosives in it

>>64383159
>>Hit on the nose.
>Nah, man I'll pass on that.
I've opened up a tm-62 anti-tank mine with a hatchet. It's a messy job and the explosive is flaky, but I didn't blow up. The job would have been easier with a spanner-sized old-timer can opener though.

Okay, serious question:
What about the concussive force on the user? Which RPG is nicest and worst on the user?

>>64383776
>The early M72 penetrated 200 mm vs 280 of the PG-7, the difference was due to diameter.
It didn't, and the difference was actually due to differing standoff and was primarily velocity dependent and manufacturing quality dependent. The real penetration for PG-7 at ranges where the pH was at least 50% in normal conditions ranged from 150-160mm, and only reached the spec at ranges where Russians were incapable of hitting things (and thus pK was effectively zero). Picrel is the real penetration measured for PG-7VM that supposedly does 300mm of penetration. Meanwhile, M72 was actually doing its advertised penetration of 200mm as a baseline.
>more range
It didn't. This is horseshit wishful thinking by the Russians. The RPG was and is horrifically inaccurate and the sustainer motor that gives it good velocity at long range is a huge part of why. The fact that it is going faster at 500m than at any point before then doesn't mean it was useful at that distance. The pH for a target at that distance was something like 5% in normal conditions. The pH for both M72 and RPG-7 was about 50% at 200m in reasonable conditions, and in practice M72 actually turned out to have better pH at all ranges.

>>64383837
>The RPG was and is horrifically inaccurate and the sustainer motor that gives it good velocity at long range is a huge part of why
didnt it also have unintuitive aiming, where if the wind was blowing while the rocket motor was still burning, it would actually turn in the direction of the wind?

>>64383087
>and not get the shit smoked out of them
yeah anonymous bullying does so much

>>64382171
Ukraine war was the death knell

>>64383841
Yes (and it still does). Russians have all kinds of bullshit like this with the RPG, like the tandem PG-7VR that they like to claim can kill MBTs frontally (it can't) is so fucking slow that it will miss any target at least 70 meters away if you guess the range wrong by more than 20 meters, it physically cannot lead a target moving faster than 30km/h or further than about 250 meters away away because said target would be outside the scope's field of view.

>>64382403
>CG
>virtually unused
Topkek, you fucking retard

>ITT thirdies who've never seen LAW/AT-4 carpets
Lmao

>>64382403
>heavy
Oh noes, not a couple extra pounds for an all-around superior weapon. Pussy.
>virtualyl unused in the field
1. Incorrect.
2. If it were correct, that'd be because even better weapons are used instead. BEtter than ther wepaon that is already all-around superior to the russkie garbage stick.

>>64383087
>Muh reddit
Obsessed.

>>64383748
Don't samfag to blow smoke up your own ass, ziggie.

>>64383856
Honestly I think it'll recover a bit after that ends, don't get me wrong it'll still be worse than ever though, the money will just dry up a lot for active shilling and board manipulation

>>64382171
/b/ was /b/, then the Tumblr raid happened and /pol/ became /b/ and wants to everyboard to become /b/ and /pol/.

>>64383837
>plausible bullshitery
>a bulleting that shows the PG-7 has 2-3 times more pH at 250m than an early M72
>doesn't provides a comparative plot for other systems BUT takes the most favorable interpretation for his narrative
You lie as you breath, not different than a retard firehosing. You might not like the 'encyclopedic' figures but if you're gonna do comparisons better than that you have to use the same methodology for both systems... (like picrel taked from a comparison of the 1980s between M72 and its successors)

>The pH for both M72 and RPG-7 was about 50% at 200m
lol

>>64384120
Dyslexia typo:
>a retard firehosing
a vatnik firehosing*

>>64383863
>like the tandem PG-7VR that they like to claim can kill MBTs frontally (it can't)
I dunno, you probably could kill a T-72B with kontakt 1 from the front. 750mm Penetration no ERA and 600mm after ERA is pretty good if you want to kill T-72's. The newer claim of 750mm after ERA and 900mm+ with no ERA penetration seems wildly optimistic (Could be true that it is the maximum recorded penetration dept from X rounds fired into a test target while the older penetration figure is the guaranteed minimum penetration depth it will always achieve)

Big boxy western MBT's however can take it like a champ.

IIRC (I dont have the source sadly) when the germans were marketing the panzerfaust 3 in the 90's they had two different tandem warheads developed. One was markated to be able to defeat an ERA equiped T-72 and the other was for an ERA equiped T-80

The one for the T-72 had something like 700mm after ERA while the one for the T-80 had 800mm after era. The T-72 target most likely represents a T-72B turret and the T-80 target represents a T-80U turret (or the more common T-80UD)

So when the russians claim they have a tandem warhead for the RPG that cant defeat MBT's they are infact correct. They can kill their own MBT (T-72B and T-90A) which is what they are currently fighting in large numbers, A large number of legacy soviet MBT's from their own old soviet stockpile or the warsaw pact donated by angry former members.

>>64382403
Holy fuck you are one retarded nigger.

They have been the go to tool for short range anti tank defense since the 70's for a lot of Europe. Ukraine has demonstrated why, and that it works. It was an excellent tool for suppressing sand monkeys and blowing out their compounds. It can lob whatever you need acurately for about 1000 yards. Is it heavy? A bit. Is is something that can't be handled by an infantry platoon. No. It isn't.

>>64383641
>angle grinder
>risk of the explosive going off
You are so close to answering your first question yourself.
Hacksawing into a grenade is already scetchy as all fuck, using an angle grinder pretty much guarantees that you'll loose your hands.

>>64382171
>calls bait trash quality
>takes the bait anyway
What did they mean by this?

>>64382362
>The US makes an RPG-7 equivalant and everyone who has used it says that it blows the Soviet/Russian made ones out of the water
It's only going to do that if they're in the water in the first place.
There doesn't seem to be a scenario where you could engage the North Sea Fleet with an RPG so are you using a burger RPG-7 to duck hunt at the Finnish/Karelia border?

>>64384621
Leave, ESL tourist.

>>64383682
>>Is the CTE worth it?
>It's really hard to know.
For a spell, I thought you were answering jokingly as a consumer and that other anon was initially trolling you but then suggesting that RPGs are worth the brain damage because they're so much fun.

>>64383847
It was part of the board culture. Not that you would know. Fuckers like you took the soul out of the place and wonder why all the oldfags complain. Hell, you’ll probably cry because I said fag.

>>64383918
Perfect example. Cannot process any thought on here not pertaining to the slav wars.

>>64383668
The "don't eat it" is because tards would eat c4 to try and get high

>>64384742
>It was part of the board culture
There's always been loads of military autists here that just like fighter jets/battleships/tanks or want to talk about manoeuvrer warfare.
Gun ownership is by far the noisiest part of board culture but that doesn't make it the largest and definitely not the only part of the board.
Plus every major conflict and many very minor ones since /k/ started has had its thread and this current one has lasted for a while so it's hardly surprising that it's ongoing.
War is a core interest of /k/, so long as we try to stay away from the politics of it for obvious reasons.
This war was probably the first time that there was a western and non-western combatant and both were capable of using 4chan, this probably won't be the last time it happens either but it takes something as fundamentally anti-western as Russia vs Europe for /k/ to really have this strong an interest.

As for why /k/ is a western board, it's because 4chan is an English speaking site. Everyone here either lives in the west or is interested in the west. Only a minority are actually anti-western but they're motivated to be very loud about it while everyone else just assumes being pro-western is normal and doesn't get into it much.

>>64384127
Same difference. Carry on.

>>64384796
Thanks, ChatGPT.

>>64384834
How new are you?

>>64384796
>posts a novel that’s barely tangentially related to anything I said.
Only a redditfag would be so self-absorbed that they would post “4chan is an English speaking site” like it’s some kind of fucking esoteric knowledge. You all wouldn’t be so pissed if I didn’t have a point.

>>64384621
Are you fucking stupid?

>>64384951
Are you?

The Quest to """Beat""" the RPG:

RPG Invented
>oh shit we need man-portable firepower
40mm invented
>no range nor lethality but let's double down
M79 invented
>oh shit it's too big
M203 invented
>oh shit it's inaccurate & the gun's too heavy
M320 invented
>oh shit worst of both worlds
M32 invented
>oh shit it's way too heavy
30mm PGS program invented
>still gonna be too heavy and underpowered


And on the opposite end of the spectrum:
RPG Invented
>oh shit we need man-portable anti-vehicle
CG invented
>oh shit it's too heavy
LAW invented
>can't kill shit but let's double down
AT4 invented
>cold war's over, obsolete with no armor to kill
SMAW invented
>oh shit it's just a worse CG, too heavy for Afghanistan
60mm mortar revived
>oh shit it's too slow and heavy for Afghanistan
60mm Handheld Mortar invented
>oh shit mortars are useless without the mount
CG revived
>oh shit it's too heavy for Afghanistan
SMAW-D invented
>oh shit single use isn't enough for suppression
M4 CG invented
>oh shit still heavier than the RPG

Meanwhile RPG
>we made a new warhead type, problem solved

>>64382163 (OP)
is it true that the AP-Frag warheads suck? the long 40mm ones? If so why?
I remember early ukraine both sides basically shittalking them.

>>64383087
Also doesn't help that our board's mods are antigun.

>>64385155
US doctrine was to min-max the squads equipment for the level they are using
the infantry have LAWs instead of CGs so it doesnt impact their ability to use rifles, whereas the RPG needs a dedicated gunner and ammo bearer
the AT4 is just a straightforward upgrade to the LAW

the russians force the squad to adapt to the weapon, the US preferred to adapt the weapon to the squad
its literally just doctrine

>>64382172
style

>>64382467
>>64383096
the western population (or at least America) is not afraid to depose our leaders with force.
The American population also maintains a monopoly upon that force. 400 million guns and counting is most definitely enough to overthrow any nation.

>>64385676
>1776 will commence again
>sic semper tyranis
ain't nothing but words until you actually do something. every time a right gets trampled or an other scandal comes out you just take it and shout some words
the fucking french have more spine

>>64382502
Remember there's a lot of things out there that don't die to rifle fire but aren't tanks

>>64385499
Having a guy whose sole job is to deliver accurate and continuous hate should be considered an essential role and not just relegated to being a hand grenade upgrade. These weapons must be specialized on, anything short of that is just wasting the weapon.

>>64383087
Anon I have said I'm noguns on here 10 years ago, I can't own guns because I was caught making explosives.
I hang around /k/ to discuss military hardware and I happen to know a lot about explosives.

>>64383918
>someone complains about nouns reddit tourists
>immediately call them a zigger
You're exactly what's wrong with this board.

>>64383918
>acknowledging that there's a huge influx of europoor noguns makes one a zigger
How is that even remotely related? There was nothing pro-russia or anti-ukraine in my post. I disparaged only redditors and noguns.

>>64384137
>I dunno, you probably could kill a T-72B with kontakt 1 from the front.
This is the secret of slavshit: it will deliver the advertised performance when tested/employed against itself. For example, Wagner's Pantsir actually hit aircraft once it was shooting at the VVS, and Ethiopian Su-27s have a 5:0 record against Eritrean MiGs

>>64382573
Even there the chinks made a better LAW

>>64382561
bad stance for the latter

>>64383748
>Nogunz
You dumb fucks dont realize it wasn't any better 6+ years ago, newfags were still nogunz, but the only times fags ever got called out is if they were being utterly retarded.

I am nogunz, I dont care what fags think. Im not here to talk about rifles and pistols, but instead tanks, artillery, submarines, and aircraft. All you stupid 'oldfags' have this delusional idea that this is the guns board, not the weapons board. I hope anyone gatekeeping owing a fucking tool dies of lead poisoning, it would be like fags grilling someone because they dont have a skilsaw.

I cant own a tank, nor any other weapons, a gun is just a piece of metal, not some fashion item. You retards act like a bunch of women arguing about fashion, or faggots that have Iphones bragging about their text messages being a different color, to the point of shunning those without the blue blob.

>tldr
Blow it out your ass. Go eat your cum brownies faggot.

>>64383374
I don't think comparing the M72 to the RPG-2/7 is fair since the RPG worked more for a multi purpose role and comparing a disposable rocket launcher to one that is reusable is going to be different when the idea was that a solider would carry multiple M72s while a soviet solider would carry one RPG-2/7 with different warheads depending on the situation. The RPG7 was a great rocket launcher and it punched well above its weight in terms of how long it was used but no one can argue that it has seen its last days since the 2010s.

>>64386659
>better
Is it really?

>>64386659
Come on, nigger. The chinks never made a better LAW... or a law.

>>64386761
both the LAW and the RPG-7 were squad-level weapons, which is why they are being compared

>>64383374
A disposable rocket launcher is not comparable to the RPG7, are you a nitwit?

>>64382561
Probably shitty tube rewelds.

>>64384796
This is the most pathetic European post I've ever seen.
Get yourself a Bill of Rights before replying, cuck.

>>64386887
This you?

>>64385155
retarded bait coping about weapons that existed before rpg did

>>64384120
>>The pH for both M72 and RPG-7 was about 50% at 200m
>lol
A 1976 U.S. Army evaluation of the weapon gave the hit probabilities on a 5-by-2.5-metre (16.4 ft × 8.2 ft) panel moving sideways at 4 m/s (13 ft/s).[25] Crosswinds cause additional issues as the round steers into the wind; in an 11 km/h (6.8 mph) wind, firing at a stationary tank sized target, the gunner cannot expect to get a first-round hit more than 50% of the time at 180 m (590 ft).[26]

btw that same RPG also had hit probability of 0.22 at 300 ft, or 275m, pretty much aligned with that of M72.

>>64386761
>since the RPG worked more for a multi purpose role
it didn't, it was strictly an anti-tank weapon exactly the same as a LAW.
>and comparing a disposable rocket launcher to one that is reusable is going to be different when the idea was that a solider would carry multiple M72s while a soviet solider would carry one RPG-2/7
there's literally no difference and since M72 is actually lighter than an rpg warhead you in fact get more rounds than with a reusable launcher.
>with different warheads
unless they're using obsolete warheads alongside more modern ones they'll carry exclusively one single type with them. various special purpose warheads like frag, thermobaric and so on were only developed and manufactured after the soviet collapse.

>>64386123
Okay, "I have such an interest in weapons that BATFags took away my right to have guns" is a completely different case than "I have no weapons and no interest in owning them because they're scary and dangerous" which the majority of the cases with newfags.

>>64386958
>which the majority of the cases with newfags
Nice strawman fag, we have generals for 'people' like you (retarded gorilla niggerfaggots). I see those abominations in the catalog, and they are some of the few threads on /k/ I have filtered.

I know this is your sekrit club but most anons here like and lack fear for all weapons, or at the very least are aware that the weapons dont kill, the user does, and the few that dont are giga autists like sword enthusiast and etc...

We were all newfags once (and by most actual oldfags metrics, 95% of anons are still), and gatekeeping like this just makes you look like a fag.

>>64386737
>I am nogunz
Opinion discarded.

>>64386737
>All you stupid 'oldfags' have this delusional idea that this is the guns board
copied from the welcome message.
>While guns are the primary topic, threads involving any other sort of weapons, from swords and knives to tanks and jet fighters, come up frequently as well.
it IS a gun board, everything else is just an add on.
eat shit, you subhuman nogunz.

>>64386659
>30 years later
>worse in every way
every single time

>>64382163 (OP)
>things people who have never used one say
You sound like a zoomer who listened to millennials talking about taking RPG fire in GWOT and decided "wow RPGs must be based" instead of thinking for 2 seconds and realizing "wow it must be a shitty weapon if these guys survived so many shots from it and lived to tell the tale."

RPG7s are notoriously inaccurate. They're also relatively weak warheads compared to other equivalent weapons.

>>64382163 (OP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSRL-1

>>64382163 (OP)
Observe how every single wunder-launcher of the last generation popped up in Ukraine and now observe what they run now after 3+ years of fighting.

All the fancy guided launchers/disposable launchers/grenade launchers left behind. What's left? Hand grenades, satchel charges and RPGs. All the theories of grenadier squads and widespread launcher deployment don't mean shit when the average solider will be dead before they can use it. Peer conflict soldiers have spoken: Western launchers are dead weight.

>>64388899
now this is some next level reformer cope

>>64389415
Average disposable launcher use case:
>mobik spends minutes figuring out how to deploy
>misses
>back to rifle

Would've been better giving him ten hand grenades. You can't honestly say this is productive.

>>64389649
>mobik spends minutes figuring out how to deploy
it isnt any harder to fire an AT4 than it is to fire an RPG-7

>misses
>back to rifle
which is the advantage of a disposable launcher, its light enough that carrying one doesnt interfere with your ability to use a rifle
an RPG requires 2 members of the squad to sacrifice some of their equipment to hold the weapon and the ammo for it

>>64382515
>steady, steady, steady, steady,
>oops! Silly mean I left safety on!
>Okay. I got it not guys.
>Hmm safety must still be on.
>Double checking. No. It's off.
>Okay me is good to go I'm confident now.
>I got this. I'm in the zone. Firing.

This guy

>>64387032
If that wasn't so gay I'd save it

>>64382163 (OP)
The CG dances all over the RPG-7

>>64382561
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Eldest_Son

>>64389658
The whole point is that an experienced RPGer can be more effective than a whole squad of riflemen. The counter-insurgency mentality of everyone needing to be a rifleman has shown itself to be irrelevant in peer conflict. Just as speed reloads are pointless as you'll always have time to reload, the RPGer will not become a sitting duck if he's not spraying bullets every 5 seconds.

The most effective tactic has once again revealed itself as just having a fuck ton of explosives. Adding one more rifle to spray at the thing you can't even hit/see is a waste of resources. Give the RPG-team reduced loadouts with SBRs or PDWs, distribute spare warheads all across the squad like with mortar rounds. Continuous, accurate explosive suppression from a soldier whose ability to guide it is instinctual is unbeatable. This is something we know (since we keep trying to make grenadier squads a thing) but are unwilling to actually train for.

>>64389729
>The whole point is that an experienced RPGer can be more effective than a whole squad of riflemen
when facing armor, but when facing enemy riflemen then saddling two of your squad with not immediately helpful equipment is not ideal

having lightweight anti-tank weapons means they can still act as riflemen while still having self-defense capability against enemy armor
leave the heavy weapons to the weapons platoon, who will be able to use that weapon most effectively

>>64382485
The RPG-7 was derived from the Panzerfaust, which itself was a refinement of Bazookas captured from the Americans.

>>64389740
the bazooka led to the panzerschrek
the panzerfaust was a parallel development
the RPG is closer to the bazooka rather than the panzerfaust, being intended to be used by 2 people and being the size of a primary weapon

the M72 LAW is the successor to the panzerfaust, filling the same tactical purpose, but using the design of the bazooka

>>64389740
That's the Panzerschreck, a repurposed rocket propelled grenade, the Faustpatrone precedes the first deployment of the Bazooka.
The German and American did something similar: extend the range of AT grenades.

>>64389738
This is what they invented all the other warheads to solve.

>>64389768
>This is what they invented all the other warheads to solve.
different warheads doesnt solve the fact that the RPG is the size of a primary weapon and you need an ammo bearer to hold all those different rounds, sacrificing the overall utility of the squad
hence the use of light AT, they can keep all their basic equipment and sacrifice little for the additional firepower

>>64382163 (OP)
bait used to be believable

>>64383682
>SMAW
Those things are scary as fuck. They make the Gustaf look like a popgun.

>>64383758
In peer war, it's the same shit x2. Disposables are better at the individual level and ATGMs are better at the platoon level: there's no level where an RPG is better than the alternatives.

>>64389859
also, having M72 LAWs at the squad level and the M47 dragon in the platoon weapons team was their cold war gone hot arrangement, the opposite of anti-insurgency

>>64389768
How many of those can you realistically carry and why is it better than a bunch of 40x46 HEDP?

>>64389894
"Ahem it's your GWOT experience being wrong" is the new kneejerk against anyone who can read a history book.

>>64389911
the big-gun being squad level was true for mech infantry, but this was because having a transport meant that they could afford to lug it around
and both the M72 LAW and M47 dragon werent assigned to anyone by default, and they would either hand out the M72 LAWs to the riflemen, equip the designated AT gunner and a rifleman to use the M47, or carry all of them at once depending on the situation
but this was because mech infantry didnt have a weapons team at all

>>64383837
>Picrel is the real penetration measured for PG-7VM
False. The RPG-7 warhead they list in Tradoc bulletin 3 has a caliber of 85mm so it is either the PG-7 or PG-7V. They even call it PG-7. PG-7VM has a caliber of 70.5mm

>The pH for both M72 and RPG-7 was about 50% at 200m in reasonable conditions, and in practice M72 actually turned out to have better pH at all ranges.
No. The effective range of the M72 is hands down lower then the RPG-7, the hit probabiltiy at 200 meters is lower. Only with good training (which also applies to the RPG-7 at longer ranges then 200m) and known range can the M72 have a 50% hit probability at 200 meters during field testing. The M72 really shines in a pair/ sequence firing and did better then estimated during field tests that way.

Using data from Tradoc bulletin 5, In a 2d round hit (1st round missed) probability on stationary exposed tank the M72 did at following ranges
>100 meters 100%
>200 meters 75%
>300 meters 38%

The RPG 7 however in a similar 2d round scenario in Tradoc bulletin 3 did about
>100 meters 90%
>200 meters 78%
>300 meters 57%
>400 meters 37%
>500 meters 23%

This does not mean however the RPG-7 is the superior weapon system and the US was dumb for using the M72.

Soviet ATGM at that time period had a minimum effective range of 500 meters. US ATGM have a minimum effective range of 65 meters and are not MCLOS but are SACLOS so a higher hit probability at all ranges even at 100 meters. In a sceario where Soviet infantry supported by ATGM's are forced to engage US tanks at a range of 500-300 meters they have to rely on the RPG-7.

US infantry however can blast the Soviet tanks with the M47 dragon from 65 to 1000 meters or with the TOW 65 to 3650 meters with a way better hit chance att all ranges in the same scenario with both weapon systems.

The Soviets also directly copied the M72 with the RPG-18 so it is quite telling the M72 is a good idea, a disposable anti tank rocket for the individual soldier.

>>64383372
RPG-7V has 295 m/s velocity and 350 battle sight range.
M72A3-7 has 145 m/s velocity and 200 meters battle sight range.
Drop and lead wise RPG-7 is very good. At the expense of if very strange trajectory of rocket boosted grenade when there is wind.

>>64383701
>and the complete superiority of pure recoilless rifles was clear right from the start.
They literally make your brain damaged.

>>64384137
>Big boxy western MBT's however can take it like a champ
Western MBTs are NERA and they vulnerable to Soviet style tandem shaped charged with large shaped charge precursors (, Soviet made warheads to counter Western armor? Curious).

>>64390923
So do rocket launchers. The SMAW is probably even worse than the CG in that regard but it's never gotten the same amount of attention.

>>64385228
>is it true that the AP-Frag warheads suck? the long 40mm ones? If so why?
Complete trash.
They have very narrow fragmentation spray angles, perpendicular to grenade sides. If you imagine how grenade explodes relatively to target you will see why it's bad.
Unironically DYI RPG warheads made from 82m cast iron mortar rounds are over 9000 times better.

>>64390936
>and they vulnerable to Soviet style tandem shaped charged with large shaped charge precursors
other way around
soviet tanks relied on ERA and would have been incredibly vulnerable to tandem charges
NERA has better multi-hit capability

>>64390946
>NERA has better multi-hit capability
NERA doesn't have resistance to tandem charges.
T-80U cavity armor does. Buy not NERA. NERA is reactive armor and it delaminaties after precursor hit.

>>64383367
doesn't the carl gustaf give the user brain damage though?

>>64390958
>NERA doesn't have resistance to tandem charges.
tandem charges work by pre-detonating the ERA so the base charge can hit the base armor
NERA is re-useable and so is not compromised by the precursor
the armor is also 4-5 layers deep and 80% of the reduction in shaped charge penetration is done by a single layer, so built-in redundancy defeats tandem charges even if its able to totally defeat the outermost layer

> NERA is reactive armor and it delaminaties after precursor hit.
no fuze is precise enough to allow a jet to travel through the exact same area

tandem charges defeat ERA, not NERA, against which its effect is minimal

>>64390968
only if you are shooting it multiples times per day over several days

>>64390970
>NERA is re-useable and so is not compromised by the precursor
It's not.
NERA has "multihit capability" in a sense less area of armor destroyed. With Kontact ERA it's quite common for example with side turret hit to lose all ERA in this turret side with shaped charge hit. NERA modules area destruction is much less.
But it doesn't matter for tandem, precursor and main warhead hit same spot.

>>64390983
>precursor and main warhead hit same spot.
no fuze now or before is precise enough to allow the main charge to travel down the hole produced by the precursor
but it doesnt matter since the NERA is multilayered

tandem charges do not defeat NERA

>>64390986
They do.

>since the NERA is multilayered
NERA doesn't have capability to completely stop jet. See pdf. Single layer reduces pen from 360mm to 280mm.

>>64390997
>They do.
they dont

tandem charges only stop ERA, not NERA

>>64391000
See x-ray.
Idea that you can "re-use" this is completely deluded wishful thinking.

>>64391014
wishful thinking is thinking NERA does not stop tandem charges when it empircally does, RPG-29s with tandem charges were incapable of defeating the turret cheek of the M1 abrams

>>64391021
Repeating thing without arguments doesn't make it true.

>>64391026
so literally what you are doing?
tandem charges exploit ERA detonating itself after a hit, NERA does not detonate and can be layered, negating most of the precursor charge

tandem charges do not defeat NERA any better than single charges

>>64391041
>NERA does not detonate
It bulges see >>64391014

>and can be layered
See above her movibg right to left, NERA module didn't stop jet. So jet would pass and bulge many layers.

>>64391046
>NERA module didn't stop jet
NERA stops jets, otherwise it wouldnt be good armor
the precursor would only defeat the outer most layer, and in any case the primary charge would not pass through exactly the same location as where the precursor went

NERA defeats tandem charges

>>64391053
>NERA stops jets, otherwise it wouldnt be good armor
See x-ray >>64391014
Read pdf.

>>64391076
yeah, NERA is layered and the precursor is wasted on the outermost layer
tandem charges are only effective against ERA which detonates itself

>>64382561
Limp wristing

>>64383047
In the Ukraine war the Javelins stopped the largest mechanised push in recent history, Russia had the world's largest armor reserves and their best stuff was exhausted trying to storm Ukraine.

If your Javelin stockpile stopped that I'd say it was an appropriate amount.

>>64383641
I don't like the idea of banging on it with a hammer, but heating it up throwing sparks everywhere is simply suicidal.

>>64386779
Single-shot weapon anon. You make the tube strong enough to survive one firing, and no more than that. Anything more than that is useless weight.
As long as it can reliably fire without decapitating it's gunner, it doesn't matter if the tube is borked afterwards.

>>64383918
that's what a redditor would say