Thread 64392148

Is the idea of honorable combat a moral ideal to be pursued in an inherently violent world or a delusion used to reconcile the inherent horrors of violence with the desire for moral idealism?

>>64392148 (OP)
It is a fatalistic acceptance of violence as the status quo. Reasonable men must seize the means of violence and use it only to terminate anything or anyone who wishes to use it for any purpose other than ending violence itself.

>>64392148 (OP)
Depends on the context

>>64392163
But then how do you avoid pic related?

It externalizes the cause of violence.

“I am not a murderer, this is a holy war” “I am not a violent person. I am an agent of the state, protecting others from violent law breakers” “I was just following orders” “It was an honorable duel. He shouldn’t have called me a liar”

I would say it’s leas about ‘the horrors’ and more about shifting society’s blame off the individual

>>64392213
The tricky thing about culpability / free will is that you only have it once you realize you have it, but once you realize it you're on the hook for everything you do after.

>>64392221
It's illusory anyway. Our emotional circuits make a snap decision and half a second later we feel like we logically thought things through

>>64392240
Good news: you haven't realized you have free will and are thus not culpable for anything you do.

>>64392242
I'm saying that technically, nobody has it. Not even those that think they do. It's a religious notion, not a scientific one.

>>64392250
I'm saying that because you think that way, you do not have it.

>>64392173
>taking a snippet from a science fiction book written by a schizophrenic as some sort of physical law
>>64392148 (OP)
It’s a way to lose wars because you’re rigidly adhering to a rule that your opponent knows about and will exploit.

>>64392173
By not falling for disingenuous logical fallacies

BRO, WARRIOR POET BRO

>>64392173
>the mad rantings of a shithouse rat
his best book by far and hands down was Dr. Bloodmoney.

>>64392262
A schizophrenic couldn't have written stories that inspired over a dozen films and TV shows.

If Genghis Khan wasn't concerned with this fag shit, why should I? OP's faggy Facebook philosophy posts need to stay on Facebook.

>>64392250
Pic rel

>>64392276
I would counter that only a schizophrenic could inspire that many movies

>>64392269
Such as?
>>64392273
Are you saying a certifiably insane man with no grasp on reality was able to write so many stories that resonate with people? Doesn't seem likely desu
>>64392277
edgy, I like it

>>64392148 (OP)
There's nothing honorable about honest-to-god life-and-death combat, even if there is something eminently satisfying with matching steel and wit with an opponent.

It's after combat that honor counts for something. Same logic behind why you got to treat your PoWs right, if you don't wanna get tortured after surrending yourself.
Plus, it's pretty much the only thing that separates us from being mere animals.

>>64392287
Have you ever met an actual unmedicated schizophrenic? They can't do anything. They can't take care of themselves. They're completely separated from reality and cannot function in the real world on any level.

>>64392288
>such as?
The one you posted

>>64392293
Which logical fallacy is that quote an example of?

>>64392290
It was a joke you psycho

>>64392296
Give me a list and I'll point it out to you

>>64392299
oh okay sorry, my mistake. good joke?
>>64392301
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=logical+fallacy+list

>>64392296
I circled one I think apply

>>64392312
They teach rhetoric at Angelo State University?

>>64392148 (OP)
Honorable combat is only applicable in sport combat
If it's a fight to the death, you should never fight fair

>>64392277
Genghis Khan actually had a strong sense of honor and unironically tried to be peaceful with the muslims until they kept fucking him over and killing his ambassadors. He was a very loyal man who spent most of his wealth caring for the families of soldiers who died in battle.

He was vengeful but that was the core of mongol morality and honor, good for good, evil for evil, not turn the other cheek.

>>64392322
Discussion not going the way you'd like it to?

>>64392327
There are real combat scenarios that don't necessarily have to be a fight to the death.

>>64392331
>caring for the families of soldiers who died in battle
Yes, you pay your men and their families to ensure your military force is stable and not distracted from their tasks. No shit.

>>64392293
As an extrapolation, I think it's an example of a slippery slope fallacy. However it written as more of an observation.
The first post was about the democratization of violence. Everyone in the village must carry a stick and agree that the stick should not be used, ever, unless someone is hit with a stick, or something like a stick (fist, rock, poison), ideally after a fair trial. This assumes a certain level of social cohesion. In international relations, it assumes common goals and desires by all actors.
In the US it worked out very well before the mental health epidemic. In international relations, violence is moreso monopolized by the West than democratized, but since the West holds similar serene multilateral notions it's working out fine. We're living in the most peaceful period in history.

>>64392331
I would say that honor lies outside of morality. An action can be immoral but still lie within the bounds of honor within the definitions of whatever society you're looking at. That's because honor is a relative cultural value whereas morality is an absolute truth that comes from God.

>>64392288
>Are you saying a certifiably insane man with no grasp on reality was able to write so many stories that resonate with people?
have you met most people? theyre as crazy as the batshit insane people in a psychward of 2001.

>>64392353
>the West
Like Utah and Colorado?

>>64392358
Most people I interact with on a daily basis are definitely not insane, and I work in the service industry. Maybe things are just better here in Peoria.

>>64392148 (OP)
Honor is a fools' game. Great if you need it to sleep at night and legitimize your views and public perception to and for others. Don't mean shit at the end of the day since it's secondary to whatever your end goal was for engagement anyway.

Outsource morality, it is a waste of mental cycles.

>>64392353
>We're living in the most peaceful period in history.
source?

>>64392335
It's going great, Todd.

My favorite kino example of “are we the baddies now?” is the Boshin War. Basically, in the 1860s, japan had an emperor with next to zero actual power. It also had a Shogun, who had most of the powerful clans loyal to him, as well as a huge personal army, and a hostage system in which powerful clans had to leave their families with him to keep them loyal. Well, the western powers show up and it’s immediately clear to everybody in Japan that Japan has no hope of fighting them directly. Some intellectuals think that they can simply demand the westerners leave, but the Shogun does not, so he agrees to the western demands, which come in the form of a series of trade treaties that are generally not favorable to Japan. These intellectuals are extremely upset about this, and so decide to put together a rebellion in the Emperor’s name to overthrow the shogun and drive the westerner out. However, as I’ve explained, the shogun was essentially in control of the countries military forces. The intellectuals had absolutely no chance fighting the shogun as-was, but some of them realized that they could simply buy these extremely powerful western weapons, thus win, even with a much smaller and less organized force. So the intellectuals bought tons of western guns, western ships, paid western officers to train and lead their men, dressed their men in western clothes, and bolstered their industrial capacity by mass importing western manufacturing techniques and machinery. They successfully defeat the shogun, and it’s not even close. They then realize that they have built a society inherently dependent on western trade at this point, and have almost completely westernized the military, and that continuing to do so will allow them to invade China in Korea, which the Japanese soul inherently desires to do. So western trade goes on at a higher rate than it did even under the Shogun, and the first photographs of the emperor have him in western attire.

>>64392402
oh wow that's crazy then what happened? was it perhaps >>64392173

>>64392402
>>64392414
also is this what The Last Samurai was about?

>>64392379
>source?
Not rejecting reality and intellectual honesty

>>64392459
I'm not everywhere in the world. I don't know what the state of peace / violence is other than what outside sources tell me. I would like to read a trustworthy source that supports your claim and backs it up with evidence.

>>64392148 (OP)
there is no such thing as inherent horror. violence is natural and normal. everything feeds on each other or changes each other. there is no horror save for that which you create

>>64392438
No, not exactly. I left out the last part of that story because I ran over the character limit. After the imperial side won and nothing had improved according to their original agenda, the most powerful of the three clans that formed the original imperial rebellion… rebelled against the empire. That clan was the Satsuma, and the ensuing Satsuma rebellion, which involved a fraction as many men as the boshin war still led to considerably more death, as entire units regularly fought the last man. The last samurai gets the vibe of the situation fairly accurate, though in reality, they continued using the guns and uniforms they had from the boshin war, and were not generally in traditional samurai attire the emperor was so moved by the events of the rebellion that everybody in Satsuma was pardoned once it was put down including those who had died, and statues of the rebellion’s leaders were built around Tokyo, which still exist today. The Satsuma never really expected to win, it was an entirely a heroic last stand type of thing to try to communicate how they felt to the populous. The person in charge of the rebellion, and the de facto leader of the Satsuma was this guy named Saigo Takamori who was extremely smart. He completely understood that by the time of the satsuma rebellion, it was not possible for Japan to de-westernize. In the early May. Following the end of the Bowen war, many Japanese customs were outlawed to speed up westernization, but following this rebellion, many of them were re-introduced to Japanese society.

>>64392472
*in the early days, following the end of the Boshin war

God, dammit, I’m getting raped by AutoCorrect here, phoneposting because I’m on a train, many apologies.

>>64392148 (OP)
At a time when all of Europe shared a common morality\worldview, it was a means of preventing violent escalation over things like border disputes.
Kind of like how duals were a way of settling a dispute between two royals who would send out their best knight. Or someones daughter would marry someone else's son to prevent war.

>>64392511
>duals
ESL

>>64392341
They don't have to, but easily could
Never take a fight too lightly, imagine dying because someone bumped into you at a bar and you thought talking it outside for an honorable fist fight was a good idea then his friend kicks you in the temple

>>64392467
You're rejecting reality

>>64392734
So you don't have any data to back up your claim? I'm not saying you're wrong; I genuinely do not know.

>>64392148 (OP)
I respect those who follow the extreme path - whatever that path may be. It is exceptionally difficult to follow such roads, and it is unfortunate that in reality few actually adhere to ethical codes such as the way of the Samurai (historically actual samurai were very corrupt) - but I respect the fellow autists who do follow such codes anyways.

In reality, most must be held to honor by the tip of a blade or the barrel of a gun; without the threat of violence to hold them together they themselves become violent monsters. Very few can actually uphold themselves to a higher standard without some kind of threat hanging overhead. An invisible god, the police, the government, the possibility of excommunication from your community - there are always threats keeping people in line. But I respect those who need no constant surveillance or supervision to conduct themselves with some sense of honor - whether that's for aims I agree with or not, I always have respect for real ones.

I myself adhere to a code, but mine allows for more flexibility than the code poor Ghost Dog followed. The guy is a total sperg in the movie, but he's very honorable and disciplined, and I respect that. It is the code that gives power to an individual, and it is through deviating from it that disaster finds you.

>>64392173

Idiot should've stuck to metaphysics instead of trying to comprehend history. There are plenty examples of this *not* happening in history, and also shit isn't black and white. Plenty of situations where empires naturally merged as multiple smaller disparate nations congealed into one significant polity. Hell there are many examples of this happening in just the last few centuries.

>>64392815
"The empire" is not one particular empire but the very idea of conquest.

>>64392148 (OP)
honorable combat is reserved within each organization like the yakuza and mafia
>they will break the rules for FEELINGs though

>>64392851
These underground organizations maintain the illusion of honor to cover for their barbarity, but then again that's no different from mainstream society.

>>64392820
No I understand that perfectly - I just know that it's stupid. That's why I said the dumbass should've stuck to metaphysics where it's okay for your ideas to only exist on paper.

>>64392875
Which empires existed without conquest?

>>64392885
Starbucks

>>64392958
Good one, Todd.

Honor is for the dead.

>>64392148 (OP)
Yes.

No one understands honor. I don't mean that they're dishonorable, they genuinely don't grasp the purpose of it. Honor is super useful. Honor is what animals use when they settle territory disputes by flashing colored feathers instead of ripping each others throats out, which keeps them both alive. It's a more successful strategy than pure violence is.

Almost any honor society discards it when they fight people who don't follow the rules anyway. This idea of "big dumb toffs who have big dumb rules but we're brutal and clever so we just don't follow the rules!" is like 90% just based on incorrect takes on history mostly informed by movies. If they know you don't follow the rules they start poisoning your wells too. Now everyone has poisoned wells and all your families die. Congrats!

>>64394769
I understand honor