Thread 64418491

Do military pilots actually need training in small arms, or is it just a meme born from fiction?

No. Pilots are valuable assets so we humor them by giving them special equipment in case they survive being shot down.

>>64418491 (OP)
these days they do train to shoot rifles and have rifles with them on the aircraft/ejection seat
i think combat pilots flying over hostile areas always carried atleast a pistol in most air forces

>>64418551
But if you issue them hand weapons, wouldn't that mean they have been trained to use them?

>>64418573
Yes, and yes. Pilots are provided a pistol as an emergency survival tool, not as an offensive weapon.

only if they plan on crashing a lot

>>64418491 (OP)
On occasion.

>>64418573
Are you a fucking retard or something? Everyone, including clerks, surgeons, IT fags etc... get training on how to fire a rifle and pistol, and in many cases have to qualify on them yearly.

>>64418594
Emergency "survival" tool.

Navy Pilot here
I would prefer that we be able to shoot a pistol in the case they we have to eject and also just in principle
Navy OCS doesn’t even do weapon quals anymore so we have to find some third party and pay out of pocket to do pistol and rifle quals now

>>64418738
Not in the USAF.

>>64418845
Who was the last navy pilot shot down? Owen Wilson?

>>64418869
Wow

>>64418845
That sounds just plain ridiculous.

>>64418845
>>64418867
Over in my country, all soldiers will need to complete basic military training, regardless of the position. What's the reasoning behind this?

>>64418491 (OP)
Yes, the last thing you need is for your pilots to get shot before ever entering a plane.

>>64418491 (OP)
Yes, they get shot down.
I forget the scenario but I heard of a case in the Vietnam war where a US Mil Helicopter pilot was shot down. He was an expert shot with the 1911 and fought off a bunch of Viet Cong until rescue came because his crew was injured and couldn't be moved.

>>64419195
Well, apparently not:
>>64418845

>>64418926
USAF basic only covers rifle qual.

Anyone who actually gets issued a pistol does have to train

>>64418491 (OP)
Unlikely to need to use them, but they get a fallback just in case they crash or gotta bail over enemy territory/absolutely nowhere, which isn't super common, but it HAS actually happened a few times.

When that happens, they are not expected to play Naked Snake, but rather to avoid enemies and/or dangerous animals at all costs, and to try to make it back to friendly lines or civilization. The guns are for if they have no choice and have to use them.

>>64418573
Yes? Wouldn't do them nearly as much good if they didn't.

>>64418491 (OP)
They are issued small arms to be able to defend themselves while escaping and evading. Hambleton, for example (the inspiration for the film Bat 21), killed at least one enemy soldier on the ground after being shot down. Because they are issued the weapons, they need to be trained to use them.
picrel: The Bridges at Toko-ri (1954)

Under the rank system where pilots were officers, wouldn't carrying a handgun have been considered part of an officer's appearance?

>>64418491 (OP)
It almost looks like a shitty tec-9.

>>64418491 (OP)
No.

>>64418551
>>64418594
The most important survival equipment a pilot has is the Advanced Bellyflop Glide Vehicle.

>>64418869
Kek
>I was going to make a Behind Enemy Lines reference fuck you
>>64418884
KEK!

>>64418491 (OP)
Shamfuru dispray! Fito pilotu should commito kamikaze if no more fly! No shame famiri and Empuru! Banzaaaai!!!

>>64419565
Good /k/ino.
>Where do we get such men?

>>64418491 (OP)
during blackhawk down delta guys talk about how littlebird pilots from the 160th Soar provided air support by hovering 20 feet above the crash site and shooting their mp5s out of the window.

>>64418559
Most pilots need only pistol qualifications, Navy pilots need none, even if flying over hostile territory.

>>64418491 (OP)
They are given a gun in case they are shot down, giving them basic training with that gun is a good idea.
They are trained to run and hide but if you are boxed in it might be better to shoot your way out than surrender and end up in an ISIS video.

I heard stories that some USN pilots at the Battle off Samar flew past the Japanese ships after running out of ammo and starting firing at them with their handguns. Probably just a story but one I'd like to believe was true.

>>64420742
A US pilot once shot down a zero with his pistol. He got shot down and ejected. Since Nips used to shred parachuting pilots he pretended to be dead. A zero began circling him to check if he was really dead so in a desperate moment he whipped out his gun and unloaded. Since Nip planes had no armor he must’ve scored a lucky hit and took out the pilot as the Japanese fighter began to fall down.

>>64418491 (OP)
During the Battle of Bataan in WW2 all american planes ended up getting shot down or knocked out, so the pilots and ground crew were all forced to fight as infantry. They ended up accidentally saving the day when their quiet sector of the front got attacked by a Japanese battalion, and the airmen were so awful at combat that they managed to trick the Japs into thinking that the Americans were just pretending to be retarded as part of an elaborate rule, so the offensive was halted long enough for US armor to be brought in, killing the Japs to the last man.
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-PI/USA-P-PI-17.html

>>64420804
>Since Nip planes had no armor he must’ve scored a lucky hit and took out the pilot as the Japanese fighter began to fall down.
They do have armor depending on model. Early Zero's had none and later they recieved armor behind the pilot and armor glass right infront of him.

None however give armor directly above, to the side or below the pilot.

>>64418491 (OP)
The US Air Force stopped issuing survival kits by the midpoint of the Vietnam War, because they found that pilots either got rescued within an hour of crashing or they didn't get rescued at all. It turns out six weeks of survival training won't let you evade someone who has lived in the jungle his entire life.

>>64419850
You understand how that's different though, right?

>>64421001
That's just plain retarded. The pistol exists for self-defence not just against enemies, but also wild animals. Even if the pilots need an hour to be picked up, they might still need to use a gun within that hour.

>>64421007
How exactly is it different?

>>64418738
I'm a medical officer in the US Army. I was prior enlisted, as were about 10% of my peers in BOLC, the initial entry training for medical officers. The rifle qual rate for our training company was about 15% on first try (half of those being prior enlisted), 25% by the end of the day. This had no effect whatsoever on graduation of the training, and to my knowledge is also irrelevant for promotion and recomissioning.

So, uhh, it's not exactly a standard that many of us are held to.

>>64421227
Oh, and they didn't even bother having us fire the pistols, much less train anyone to pass qual. Assembly, disassembly, and functions checking were all the formal training we received in pistols.

>>64419850
I have no reason to doubt this greentext, there are videos, or at least used to be on youtube of kiowa pilots doing crazy shit in iraq and afghanistan

>>64418491 (OP)
Nobody can work as a military pilot without basic military skills. Without them, you can't board a plane or a helicopter if an enemy manages to get in between you and the vehicle. Not even PMCs would take you in without basic skills.

I would assume that everyone in the armed forces would at least get some basic arms training.
I mean a cook will probably never fight in a battle but he should know how to shoot an M17/M18 at least

>>64418845
>pay out of pocket to do pistol and rifle quals now
We call that a range trip

>>64418869
>>64418884

>>64419565
Is it worth a watch? It's one of the Korean War films I've even heard of, and I've meant to try and track it down for years.

By worth a watch, I should preface by saying I'm not so autistic I need it to be a 1:1 depiction of actual air or ground combat tactics of the Korean War. I mean that, if I enjoyed war films in the vein of A Bridge Too Far, will I enjoy this?

>>64419782
It’s really good for G1 jacket porn too.
>>64421636
Yes. I am also a big ABTF fan. I enjoyed The Bridges at Toko-ri. The final bombing run scene is actually very visually and technically impressive for a film from that era.

>>64420589
I think it's more of a wink and a nod that they give you a pistol and don't officially conduct a suicide training course.

>>64418491 (OP)
Are you the same retard who posted in /m/ about how Gundam pilots didn't need to know how to operate firearms?

>>64418551
pilots survive being shot down all the time

>>64422104
>suicide via pistol
Hell no, I have seen so many suicides go wrong I would be taking a grenade for that.

>>64422131
You call me a retard, yet in this very thread we have proof that they wouldn't have needed to have qualified for firearms at all.

>>64422233
no, you've been proven wrong multiple times on /m/ and here on /k/ you loser

>>64422322
Yet here we have a word straight from the devil's mouth: >>64418845

>>64422104
Scott O’Grady mentions that, while shot down over Yugoslavia, he remembered the story of a crashed pilot who shot himself only for rescuers to arrive at the crash site only hours later. O’Grady had a pistol, but he says remembering this example motivated him to stay alive, to not give in to despair.

>>64422104
>>64422178
A pilot's training costs so much time and resources that suicide would be the last thing they'd aim at with giving them a weapon.

>>64421182
because they were off handing machine guns from an aircraft that vibrates more than a dildo store. if they hit planet earth it was a fucking miracle

>>64420572
Navy pilots absolutely do need qualifications when flying over hostile territory.

>>64422822
Well nobody wants someone captured and tortued to death on al jazeera either like
>>64418812
It's not a pick from a list of good choices in the first place.

>>64421237
Other med o here, when did you go to BOLC?

>>64418722
there's a crazy firefight story about soar in panama over rooftops
soar pilots shoot because they damn well need to sometimes

>>64423830
Desu, I think SOAR are the underrated special forces unit.

I'm also heavily biased, I read pic related once in middle school and then reread it in college, both coinciding with formative junctures for my tastes in other areas.

>>64420860
Not just Bataan, after their last plane was destroyed the Marine Aviators of VMF-211 at Wake fought on with small arms captured from the first landing attempt and went out with a last stand around a pair of 3" AA guns leveled at the invaders.
"Every Marine a rifleman"

A Marine harrier pilot was awarded the Silver Star for repulsing a Taliban attack on foot in 2012

>>64424756
QRD? How'd it happen?

>>64423716
Not all enemies will kill you and break geneva convention

>>64425272
Maj Rob McDonald helped repel an attack on Camp Bastion.
>woke up 30 minutes after the attack started
>puts on his armor and grabs a pistol
>finds an m4, hands off the pistol to someone who didn't have a gun
>while he's running around trying to coordinate support he encounters a group of 4 infiltrators. realizes that one of them has a PKM
>M4s the PKM gunner then runs away and calls air support on the infiltrators last known position
>the air support kills the remaining 3 infiltrators
>later Major McDonald approaches a wounded infiltrator and serves up an order of 5.56 with fries and a Dr Pepper
"A fifth Taliban fighter was lying wounded on the tarmac nearby when a British quick-reaction force arrived. They wanted to wait for reinforcements before approaching the downed insurgent, who was armed with an AK-47 and grenades, but McDonald had another idea. For the second time that night, he raised his rifle and helped an incel get laid"
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/unsung-heroes-harrier-pilot-picked-rifle-ran-combat/

>>64426106
>For the second time that night, he raised his rifle and helped an incel get laid

>>64426106
>For the second time that night, he raised his rifle and helped an incel get laid
Dangerously based

>>64426106
>he raised his rifle and helped an incel get laid

>>64424756
You know I always like to joke about every Marine a rifleman, but when you get shit like this it is pretty cool

>>64426106
Oh shit, my friend was there. The dumb fucks detonated their VBIED on their own men while breeching so they came staggering through like zombies and the entire FOB was taking pot shots at them. He was a medic, they just sat on the hescos and popped their M4s.

Of course an officer got a silver star for that.

>>64426106
The fact that the ground crew literally ran for guns before helping the pilots get into the air is really cool.

>>64426106
Giga based.

>>64418491 (OP)
Yes, they need to qualify on a yearly basis
https://thegunzone.com/what-guns-do-military-pilots-carry/

>>64425958
If you were a pilot, would you stick around and find out?

>>64418845
>Navy OCS doesn’t even do weapon quals anymore
Really? That's way different than when I was in. I mean we weren't really trained per se but you still had regular pistol quals a couple times a year, and definitely were strapped when flying. The PRs handled the pistol and ammo though so you didn't have to make a different stop at the arms locker, so that was convenient. Are you a LAMPs guy or something? Maybe it is different for helos/mpas.

>>64429799
If you're fighting a civilized force or army, they're not gonna burn you alive.

>>64429799
We were taught in land survival during GWOT that if you got splashed, if you were uncut to immediately whip out your hog to prove you weren't some kind of IDF guy. Lol I was never sure if that was actual advice or if they were just fucking with us

>>64421596
Nah. I joined the USN in '84 and they skipped my company for some reason.

A lot of the time pilots go down in bumfuck random locations where the closest enemy is a guy with a rifle, so giving them some ability to take out a bumrushing conscript or rear echelon guy is better than nothing.

>>64430384
That comes from the Iraq war IIRC where some SAS guy got captured by Iraqis and he complied with penis inspection day because they thought he was Mossad.

>>64418491 (OP)
>Do military pilots actually need training in small arms, or is it just a meme born from fiction?


Everyone in the military needs firearms training because every job in the military has at least a fractional possibility of being in a situation where firearms are needed. Firearms training also isn't that expensive or difficult to do, especially compared to everything else related to aviation training.

>>64430384
I got taught that if we ever got captured to crank one out real quick so that if I got moved and the old location got discovered, forensic techs could find my DNA from the splooge as a proof of life.

>>64430907
That just sounds kinda crazy to me. What job did you do? Were you ever taught firearm use at any point, or would that have only come with being deployed to a conflict zone?

If a pilot can be recovered by the enemy no small arm they have is likely to make a difference.
They are going to have at least a squad of armed infantry on them.
Suicide directly or from trying to fight back is all the gun is likely to accomplish. Which can be better than being taken alive by some enemies. Maybe criminaly using it against civilians to steal supplies or a vehicle for escape.

Back when most of the world was undeveloped wilderness the concept was to hunt or kill animals.

>>64431825
The pilot can also be recovered by their own men after a few hours of being downed, or they might be able to make it back to their own by avoiding capture. Even if there was no hope of rescue or making back to their own lines, having a simple gun is still a better thing to have than having no small arms at all.

>>64430935
Nah, there's no need for many roles. If it happens, like commandos infiltrating a base to sabotage it, people in non-combat roles either hide or just surrender if discovered.

>>64418491 (OP)
Most NCO's and officers have to pistol qual.

>>64433550
Then the pictures of dead airmen killed while cowering in a broom closet make it back to the US and Airman Timmy's congressman throws a huge shitfit and calls the DoD in for answers.
During the Tet offensive anybody who could carry a gun was sent out to the base perimeter. An admin clerk at Bien Hoa Airbase was killed clearing a building that had been taken by the VC, and at Tan Son Nhut there was an Army comm unit filled with pogs that was hanging out waiting to be rotated back to the US that was sent out to the line.
More recently in Afghanistan there was an Air Force weatherman that singlehandedly stopped an insider attack with his M9. In WW1 Col Raynal Bolling was the vice chief of the Army Air Service when his command car got ambushed by stormtroopers, and he managed to kill two of them with his service revolver before he died.
I can provide dozens of more examples if anyone cares, but predicating who gets a weapon based solely on who gets shot at the most is a poor idea that would embolden adversaries and give them a huge opportunity to act on a better initiative.
/effortpost over.

>>64430933
Honestly sounds like a sound logic to me.

>>64433766
A more recent but kind of hushed up example is an exchange pilot shot up API on NAS Pensacola (i think he was Saudi) and killed several student pilots as there were no weapons to be had and the Pensacola police got lost on base trying to find the building. Clinton pushed through the huge rollback in actually having weapons around for use on stateside bases, and it is not a good look. That shooting sucked but I mean like imagine if they did at that NAS Kingsville or Meridian and trashed the simulators. Those are like single points of failure for entire training pipeline and can only be replaced, one by one, on a multi-year time frame for each, if BAE even still has the capability make new build Goshawk sims, which is by no means assured. Not good

>>64436265
crazy how most terrorism can be avoided by just not allowing arabs into your country

>>64436265
To be fair, that situation was more caused by the fact soldiers don't carry weapons outside of duty anyway. It could have happened in any other base's lecture hall as well.

>>64430364
And what exactly is stopping this civilized force or army from doing so?

>>64421596
Thats what basic training is for, then you go to your specific job training after those 9 weeks

>>64418491 (OP)
Why not train in small arms? They have plenty of time between sorties.

>>64439651
The Air Force actually held onto their M1 carbines and revolvers until the 1970s because they thought less time would have to be spent teaching recruits how to use them than the 1911 and M14, allowing more time for technical training.

>>64439787
Aren't they equipping pilots with easily built SMGs nowadays?

>>64439643
some bullshit about ethics or morality about warfare, you know, jewish bribery bullshit to make wars last longer and make more people die for their cause.

>>64442544
Certain aircrew get issued the GAU-5 takedown rifle and regular airmen get the M4. There was talk a few years ago about upgrading our M4s to a block III standard but all of the other branches ended up doing their own things with the M7 and M27 so we gave up on the rifles, but we're slowly getting Nightforce LPVOs as a result of that program so it kinda worked out.

>>64420572
>Navy pilots need none, even if flying over hostile territory.
Is this some new gay navy shit? Recently shot my dad's high power he carried on Operation Preying Mantis.

If their plane gets shot down, they only thing they have to defend themself is a pistol. There was one that got shot down in Bosnia, Marines came to rescue him and the idiot ran out of some bushes with pistol in hand. If those marines weren't disciplined he would have been killed.

>>64442805
Nah, that anon was talking out of his ass. Naval aviators are absolutely required to get qualified for firearms if they want to get deployed into action, and they need to renew it yearly, as they're required to hold a firearm with them if they face the danger of being shot down.

>>64418491 (OP)
Yes, they absolutely do

>>64439643
Gee, I dunno, maybe the Geneva Convention?

>>64444660
Geneva convention at work: >>64418812

>>64419850
You should all ITT read Low Level Hell. little bird crew wrecking shit thumping away with M79s and CAR-15s

>>64418491 (OP)
>actually need
Not really. However it can be a useful skill if the pilot is under duress. Also there can be self-defense situations that can arise on the airfield or on an aircraft that might warrant needing to operate a firearm.

>>64445200
I mean, personally I'd say that those situations are exactly the type of situations why it's a requirement for pilots. After all, defending their base of operations and aircraft, as well as defending their own and comrades' lives. If base security fails, they'll be the next ones in line to defend.

>>64418491 (OP)
everyone in the military should be trained on at least the basic service rifle, and pilots get trained on survival rifles/pistols in the event they are shot down and need to hunt small game.
>do they need infantry weapons training?
Yes, imo. If the airfield comes under attack and pilots cannot realistically get to their aircraft, it would be foolish for them not to be able to take part in the defence of said airfield for a lack of training on carbines, rifles, and machine guns.

>>64418722
What movie?

>>64418491 (OP)

If they don’t get it how else will they start an intelligence and sabotage outfit operating out of a PoW camp?

(Yes technically everyone in this image is non-pilot aircrew)

>>64446404
Based Hogan's heroes enjoyer

>>64445906
Wouldn't make much sence as its not part of their job.

>>64430384
>or if they were just fucking with us
If you're American they were obviously just fucking with you.

>>64447521
We're talking about a hypothetical competent military here, not the welfare/immigration facilitator variant.

>>64447571
>the welfare/immigration facilitator variant
The what?

>>64447606
The kind where you can say "that's not my job" when you're under direct attack.

>>64418491 (OP)
Overwhelming majority are talking about E&E but in modern warfare pilots also need to be prepared to defend against deep raids on their airfields

>>64447732
Antonov... It still hurts.

>>64446149
"Blackhawk Down". If you really want to enjoy the movie, don't read the book until afterwards.

>>64448400
Thanks, anon, it seems like there's a second-hand DVD at a store nearby, so I'll make sure to watch it.

>>64447707
A competent military would be like that, though.

>>64447521
How the fuck is not dealing with enemy raids not part the pilots' jobs? They're soldiers as well, and they can't pilot if the base gets taken over.

>>64447521
>Be Airman or AF pilot onnadeployment
>base alarms start going off
>durka durkas are shooting the place up and inside the wire
>Army and Marines hold the line, but the chaotic scrambled defense still lets a few into the more sensitive areas like the airfield
>durka runs up on you with an AK
>look him dead in the face
>”eh, not my problem”

>>64449557
Or, you know, they could always hide or surrender, smartass.

>>64450082
Or with 1 week of firearms training they at least have the chance to defend themselves rather than leaving their safety to fate. I already said it earlier, but teaching the rudimentary basics of firearms and ground combat is cheap and doesn’t take that long. That’s why it’s still a part of training for every branch.

>>64450082
>go hide in the closet
>enemy commando finds you
>surrender to them
>they can't take prisoners due to the nature of their mission so they just shoot you
>Airman Timmy makes headlines >>64433766

>>64447571
As far as I know, US military does give everyone proper training, though, and any person would without a doubt consider those situations as "their problem", or what are you implying?

>>64447732
The first Ukrainian troops to respond to the Hostomel landings were army firefighters. Across town at Vasylkiv Airbase, infiltrated FSB Spetsnaz troops tried to breach the airbase and regular airmen fought them off, allowing the fighter jets stationed there to stay in the fight.
The Ukrainian War would have been over on day one if those guys had said "welp I'm just a pog, there's no way I could go up against special forces"

>>64418812
>tfw this video was among the first gore videos I saw

>>64451328
And you turned out just fine . . .
Right?

>>64451338
Let's just say that a part of the innocence I had held on to since childhood, died.

>>64451323
Source? I tried looking for this the entire day, but it seems like there was just the usual garrison at Hostomel according to Wikipedia.

>>64426106
Fucking mint.

>>64447732
what is this dude packing on the left? it sorta looks like a steyr aug, but, what?

>>64456208
It's a FAMAS

>>64456208
M99 Beretta

>>64456208
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malyuk
Probably one of these

>>64418845
Don't worry, you'll get qualified before deployment, since a gun is always issued as part of survival gear

>>64456208
RPG

>>64456208
Is that a silencer on it?

>>64460720
No.

>>64418491 (OP)
They generally carry Glocks in US Air Force and Navy, which are issued to every combat flight.

>>64460720
that other reply isnt me, and i think the guy who said malyuk is right. look

>>64463824
Thanks.

>>64465034
What movie? Always love Willem Dafoe.

>>64439643
What happened to ISIS after they published these sorts of videos?

>>64465866
Not like they're gonna care, because stuff like this has happened, but people get away because they won the conflict.

>>64463183
Wasn't there some deadly accident with a air force pistol recently caused by malfunction?

>>64465770
get the fuck out and go back to whatever shithole you came from, you obviously don't belong here if you don't recognise that movie instantly

>>64442730
>GAU-5 takedown rifle
How many mags with it?

>>64467288
It was Sig Sauer M18 - and the guy who claimed it was a malfunction lied.
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/m18-pistol-back-in-action-air-force-global-strike-command/

>>64467336
No need to be so aggressive. Just wanted to know the movie name.

>>64470820
>>64465770
Since nobody else has given an answer yet, the movie's called Flight of the Intruder

>>64463824
tf is the thing on the front blocking the scope?

>>64465866
One of the dudes in the video is Osama Krayem. After joining ISIS in Syria and burning the pilot he went on to commit terror attacks in Europe before getting arrested an convicted.

>>64473992
>Swedish
>Palestinian
Holy fug, why are European muslim jihadists always the most unhinged?

>>64474501
They were about 5-10 years early taking in refugees before the Arab Spring. Which consequently made them pass Mexico for number of grenade attacks per capita.

>>64426106
How does someone sleep through 30 mins of a firefight? Sounds suspicious...

>>64418491 (OP)
There is a funny story from the Korean war where a pilot flying a P-80 had to jettison his tip tanks because he wasn't able to draw fuel from one side, which would have left an obvious imbalance.
But when he jettisoned them, the full tank that wasn't feeding remained attached to the wing and wouldn't come off.
With quick thinking, the pilot slid the canopy back, took out his .45 and shot holes into the stuck tip tank to drain the fuel.

I think his training with the 1911 was worth it, don't you?

>>64474562
It's not too unbelievable. Some people just sleep extremely deeply, and if you've gotten used to the sound of gunfire, brain might not register it immediately.