Thread 64442701

Which on was a superior machine?

Post engine life.

>>64442701 (OP)
American technology triumphs over kraut-jank, so whats new?

>>64442705
Post K:D against american fighters

>>64442701 (OP)
p80 with swept wings

>>64442707
And why would that matter, you braindead weheraboo retard? We are specifically discussing the performance of one plane against another.

>>64442701 (OP)
None of them

>>64442767
>During testing, the Me 262 was found to be faster than the British Gloster Meteor jet fighter, and had better visibility to the sides and rear (mostly due to the canopy frames and the discoloration caused by the plastics used in the Meteor's construction), and was a superior gun platform to the Meteor F.1 which had a tendency to snake at high speed and exhibited "weak" aileron response.

Your response?

>>64442790
Your point?

>>64442701 (OP)
crazy how we went from these pieces of shit to Sabres and mig15s in like 5 years

>>64442790
>Your response?
It looks cool, therefore I like it, therefore it is the best because only my opinion matters
Also it did pretty well in Korea despite the fact it was technologically outclassed by newer jet fighters, which makes it even cooler

>>64442843
>pieces of shit
Calling the P-80 that is a bit harsh
Sure it was outclassed by the MIG, but what plane wasn't? Doesn't mean it was bad

>>64442701 (OP)
>>64442767
>>64442861
interesting, let's see the Soviet's ww2 jet.

>>64442705
what's the difference?
>>64442707
>post k:d of a jet vs propeller-driven air craft when the comparison is between two jets.

>>64442701 (OP)
Only the Messerschmitt has a cool Blue Oyster Cult song about it.
>IN APRIL OF FORTY FIIIIIVE

>>64442701 (OP)
The P-80 had modern self aiming gunsights. The Me-262 had that in theory but it did not work right and most pilots didn't even try to use it.

>>64442843
It went from super secret tech that almost none of the right engineers had access to to widely researched and developed. Of course there would be a quick huge leap in technology.

>>64442701 (OP)
I like the Kikka, its just a smol me262. Kudos to the engineers who pieced together how to make the engines from just a few pictures.

Although it was the plane that killed top ace Bong, it was a huge success as a jet trainer.

>>64442790
All of this shit was fixed with the later Meteor versions. The fuselage was lengthened to address the snaking, a bubble canopy was installed, and it received more powerful engines.
Meanwhile, the guns on the 262 would jam because they were in mounts they were never designed for. It would snake at high speeds too, but unlike with the Meteor, it was never fixed. And the axial flow turbojets, while ahead of time, were much more sensitive to airflow disruptions and damage, making them even more fragile and unreliable for a first-gen jet engine.

>>64442701 (OP)
>OH N-!!!!

>>64443095
They had some previous experience with their own turbojet designs.

>>64442701 (OP)
The one with a functional logistics train and constant fuel supply behind it.

>>64442887
He was referring to Krautjank obviously

>>64442937
>self aiming gunsights

The fuck?

>>64442701 (OP)
The P-80 obviously because it wasn't built in a cave by starving Germans.

>>64444354
WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS

>>64442705
Apparently the german engineers went to great efforts building engines without nickel because they had very little available.

>>64442701 (OP)
I want to say the P80 simply because it wasn't squeezed for resources but I don't know that much about it.

>>64445657
I thought you guys knew all about military planes & stuff

It's a shame about what happened to Richard Bong, a top scoring American ace of ww2.Such a stupid death.

>>64445952
>many of the earthquakes that Southern California has experienced in the last three years weren't earthquakes at all, but the explosion of atomic bombs
>general manager of Bing Crosby Enterprises
>in our detonation tests, made in desert country not far from Los Angeles, the explosion of a pea-size amount created a hole in the desert
>workers had to use tongs 10 ft long in extracting the energy from uranium
but honestly the most interesting story:
>an electric appliance manufacturer said today a combination clothes washer, potato peeler, dish washer and ice cream freezer will be on the market early in 1946, barring unexpected developments
I wonder what developments kept this from the market?

>>64447000
They tried to do all four at once and it kept unexplainably ripping the clothes off of the testing house wife.
We used to be a real nation.
>>64442701 (OP)
The german. Engineers so good we had to steal all of their best so the commies couldn't have them.

>>64442701 (OP)
ME262 because it killed more Nazis

>>64447826
Didn't stop Me262 from shooting down Mustangs tho

>>64447956
>turning fights
Extended turn fights were relatively rare in ww2 and the most important area of performance for fighters was speed. Most shot-downs were surprises. Jet ace Bär's claims flying the Me 262 are like 70 % fighters. t. diff anon

>>64445952
Dick Bong was such a celebrity that his death was fucking number two headline to THE NUKING OF HIROSHIMA. Christ, he really was a legend.

>>64447956
>Despite orders to stay grounded, Nowotny chose to fly a mission against an enemy bomber formation flying some 9,100 m (30,000 ft) above, on 8 November 1944. He claimed two P-51D Mustangs destroyed before suffering engine failure at high altitude.

>>64447983
True, but when you compare his kill count of 40 against guys like Erich Hartmann who had 352 victories...

>>64445952
>Man's Most Destructive Force, One Equal to 2000 B-29 Loads, Blasts Nips

Even back then, in more cultured and literate times, they were outshitposting us

>>64442707
Just as unsustainable as the engines. The US cycled their pilots back to train recruits, imparting their experience on the next generation, therefore accumulating institutional experience and raising the floor of new pilots. The Luftwaffle had to live in a "target rich environment" (also known as losing hard) and kept their pilots in service until they died. This meant rookies either were naturals and learned by the book, or were eliminated quickly. Either way, experience (and men, machines) went wasted.
Sure, you got a number of pilots who survived quite a long while and racked up impressive numbers due to being thrown into the fire again and again, but in a total war, a handful of exceptional pilots aren't worth more than their propaganda value. And propaganda you can print more of. Exceptional talent is irreplaceable.

In the Pacific Theater, even engine failure could result in MIA.
Both Bong and McGuire met their end as if they had used up all their luck.

>>64448024
I believe that was at least partially deliberate choice. They knew they would lose a long war of attrition so they instead tried to win a short war. Germans actually did rotate experienced pilots to do training, just nowhere near as much as US or RAF.

>>64442701 (OP)
Is this even a contest? Wasn't P80 way faster than Me262 by April of 45?

>>64448041
It wasn't, the Germans couldn't afford to rotate experienced pilots back. On one hand, it would lower the quality of the fighter squadrons, which had become increasingly dependent on a few experienced pilots for effectiveness with attrition making the rest of the pilots green replacements. On the other hand, the retarded propaganda environment demanded that the big aces stay on the front and demonstrate "aryan" superiority.

>>64448024
>racked up impressive numbers
They weren't really that impressive desu. The German "super aces" didn't have victory-per-sortie numbers much been gger than the best Western Allied pilots. They just had air strips close to the front, so they could fly multiple sorties per day. It's notable that all of the Eastern Front super aces performed much worse if they were transferred to the Western Front. Hell, the first time Erich Hartmann fought the Americans, he was shot down.

>>64442843
Remember the last living civil war vet was able to get his picture taken with one of the first super sonic fighters

I find it supremely pathetic how Americans shit on "weheraboo" because this jet plane is less reliable
Nigger 90% of Germany was carpet bombed at this stage and fuel was a rare resource

>>64450516
maybe you'll like the alternate timeline where they have jets earlier and so run out of fuel even faster.

>>64450516
Americans aside I think they did a mistake when they "banned" centrifugal compressors for their small engines (that saw service), the use of axial was completely unjustified for anything below 20kN because centrifugal are still small enough. That aside, their hot section was better than English jets IMO, as wartime design and general design, the BMW 003 was comically advanced for its time and was a decent template for France, that used vastly improved BMW designs until the 1970s.
>Centrifugal weren't harder to manufacture, they allowed better RPM-Throttle response, incredible forgiving against object ingestion and inlet airflow distortion, even more efficient than early axial (that means considerably lower turbine temperature)
>https://asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/GT/proceedings/GT1996/78736/V002T02A012/243813
>10.2514/8.4171

>>64450516
That's like speculating on what would've been produced if US had ramped up military spending at the same time as Europe.

>>64450516
Even in the design and test phase, they were happy with a consistent 100 hr engine life, before the more severe resource deficits.

>>64450710
A contemporary piston engine would last less than 10 hours with WEP, and for Germans the practical engine life of a BMW801 was limited to ~50 hours before overhaul because the late war missions were abusive for those engines. The Jumo 004 was far more appropriate for a reconnaissance plane than a fighter, throttle changes affected the turbine life a lot.

>>64450668
Imagine what could've happened with just one more year.

>>64442701 (OP)
Nippon turbojet folded 1000 times

>>64442701 (OP)
if the P-80 had swept wings, this wouldn't be a question.

>>64447999
It's actually quite interesting that German super-aces actually didn't score kills any faster per mission than top-ranking Allied aces. IIRC, Hartmann got a kill once every four missions on average. The difference was that a German pilot on the Eastern front often went on multiple missions a day and spent much more of the flight in combat, while most Allied pilots likely flew only one mission a day max, with lengthy transit periods included

>>64447999
As we know, the Germans were always very honest with their propaganda.

>>64450574
>BMW 003 was comically advanced for its time

It was garbage, and a dead end technically. Frenchies were known to use shitty German tech like Panther tanks too

>>64451006
More than the soviets or the british.

>>64451936
No.

>>64451006
90% of his kills were against russhits who didn't know how to fly so it's probably real.

>>64444209
NTA, but I think that he's referring to the K-14 ("the acemaker") gunsight. When adjusted correctly, it automatically calculated your aim point while compensating for your speed, range to target, and the target's speed and angle. This was a pretty fancy trick at the time.

>>64451897
It was the basis* for the BMW 018 that was continued by France as the ATAR engine and M53 (derived but itself is a complete redesign), the M53 is flying right now in Ukraine. Retard.

When conical scanning was performed by physically rotating the antenna, would it have been possible to maintain lock-on during a fierce dogfight?

>>64452480
>It was the basis for this, which was the basis for that, which was the basis fot this, which was the basis for that, which in turn was the basis for this modern thing!!! See!? Everything is copied from the Germans!!!

Fuck off retard.

>>64454086
>too lazy to read and not being an ignorant
>too impulsive to restrain himself

>>64454112
Seethe

>>64454138
eat shit kike

>>64452454
didn't the Germans also have gyro gunsights in WWII?
Although I think they adopted it later than the allies did and in smaller numbers.

Does anyone know the exact date of adoption for gyro gunsights by the British, Americans, and Germans

>>64442701 (OP)
P80 was flat out superior, the reason why they weren't used is because the US didn't want to risk the chance of losing an engine to the Germans. We were dominating so hard we didn't even want to use our OP shit like VT fuzes, M2 carbines, and nukes.

>>64445952
>casually dropping racial slurs on the front page
Holy fuck America would look like a nightmare dystopia to someone from the 1940's.

>>64442861
Everyone knows looks are the most important metric by which to measure aircraft.
Looks good, flies good.

>>64445576
They should have tariff'ed china to secure a supply

>>64456125
Nip is not a racial slur any more than jap is

>Me 262 prince of turbojet
>Junkers Jumo 004

>>64454356
How about nein

>>64456295
Bumpo

>>64444038
>All of this shit was fixed with the later Meteor versions
>goes onto whine about me262 that couldn't get future versions
Come on anon. In some theoretical world where the nazis had less retarded leadership and handled the geopolitics way better and were able to keep going against the soviets they'd have improved with the technological leaps happening too.

>>64442701 (OP)
He280
>>64442705
20 to 50 hours ymmv
>100 hours for a golden sample

>>64457036
>they'd have improved with the technological leaps happening too.

No they wouldn't. Krauts basically hit their celing in 45 in terms of technology. This is why Germany hasn't made a single breakthrough in military tech since ww2, and the military research afterwards has been dominated by USA and Soviet union. And don't tell me it was because of ''muh occupation, muh suppressed research''. West Germany was literally the first fucking line of defense against Soviet Union for the entirety of cold war, and a backbone of NATO in Europe. The pinnacle of their achievement is Leopard tank, a basic bitch MBT with not much to show for it.

Jet fighters? Please. Euro fighter is the prime example of the ''look what they need to mimic a fraction of our power'' meme. All leading industrial powers of the European continent worked for years on it, and all they came up was a fighter slightly better than F16, and way behind F22.

People need to stop jerking off to German tech. Its nothing special really, and its superiority has been nothing more than a WW2 myth. Look at the fucking current car market, for fucks sake. Literally Chink copies of European brands are outselling German cars in their own market.

Ignorance should have a limit, lmao.
Probably the slopGPT retard.

>>64458051
Who the fuck are you talking to?

>>64458051
meds nigger

>>64442790
Gloster Meteor used 20mm cannons with much faster projectiles, while Me 262 used 30mm cannons with slower projectiles that were good for tearing up bombers, but not so much for dogfights.

The engines in the 262 would also start choking if you accelerated too fast or made sharp maneuvers that would disrupt airflow.

>>64458162
ta-183 would rape meteors

>>64456125
>casually dropping racial slurs on the front page
Don't bomb the USN or racial slurs are your smallest problem.

>>64456125
Nip being short for Nipponese. it's about as offensive as saying "'merican"

>>64458395
You don't get to make claims like that until you actually have a flying plane, a wind tunnel model is not a viable combat aircraft

>>64458752
Bump

>>64458752
p1101 flew

>>64460392
No.

>>64460392
Proof?

>>64460392
kys

>>64460392
a P1101 just flew over my house!

>>64460392
Was it revealed to you in the dream?

>>64458045
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim

>>64463418
That's the real reason why they hate "wehraboos"

>>64463418
Those were mainly rocket scientists. What good they did to the Allies, anyway? That tech is supposedely gone, and "it would be very painful proces to get it back".

>>64442701 (OP)
bump

>>64463418
>go into government positions
>wehrboos constantly conflate that with the entire avionics industry just being thrown out and replaced with Germans, diminishing the work of people like Kelly Johnson.
pure fantasy.

>>64464377
The people that built the Apollo program died before passing on their knowledge, and we just wouldn't do it the same way today anyways, meaning you basically have to start from scratch regardless. This is what people mean when they say we lost the technology. We don't have people that know how to program rope core memory, and we wouldn't use it these days anyway.

>>64464377
>>64466462
Wasn't there some problem with building or restoring old rocketry and then people realized that modern clean rooms were interfering with building them properly and actually needed conditions like guys smoking on the job to get the proper atmospheric conditions? maybe it was something else.

>>64466472
I want to say it was impurities or something in metal, but yeah, I think you're right.

>>64456252
Nip is 100% a racial slur

>>64466472
That is too variable and it would be removed as a factor even in the 1950s.
You're probably thinking about Fogbank that is a low density filler for multi stage nukes. Tiny impurities causing problems or unknown benefits are common, but they are preserved by the process itself instead of being too variable, that makes it harder to discover its effect because it's a trace amount always present (same with dioxins for some products during the 1950-1980s).

>>64466486
>Nippon
>Nipponese
>Nip
maybe if you're a bitch.

>>64466495
yes, that's exactly what It was.

>>64466486
Is Brit a racial slur too then?

>>64467508
It was the equivalent to 'limey' or in some countries 'yankee', but unlike those 'nip' and 'yellow' were reinforced on purpose with extensive propaganda operations to demonize the enemy.

>>64467521
Bump

>>64467521
Still, it was not a racial slur.

>>64469949
Sure, the anti-japanese campaign created by the goverment (american japanese included) wasn't racism.
LMAO even.

>>64469961
Stop being a nitpicking cretin.

>>64469977
Pretending ignorance will not change what happened.

>>64469961
The nips got their well deserved hate because they were actual treasonous pieces of shit that had to be rounded up into camps and re educated while their home dirt was glassed and firebombed until their samurai spirit was replaced by a panty sniffing fetish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%CA%BBihau_incident

>>64470023
>Yes it happened BUT!
What was the point anon? is NIPS racial slur or not? Your justification will not change its origin the propaganda campaign created to spread it alongside "caricatures".

>>64470040
I'm not arguing that, not the other guy. You're a sad little nip fetishist that wants to cry about racism in a war where we nuked faggots like you. The racism was deserved because nips and any other shit tier yellow asian monkeys are literal untrustworthy bugs and history has shown that. If that makes your little bug brain seethe while you piss your little bug panties that's not my problem but stop crying about shit that doesn't matter.

>>64470079
I accept your concession. Unironically.

>>64470086
Keep seething nip :)

>>64470006
Nip is not a racial slur. That's what happened.

>>64470097
This is correct, The nips existence is a slur against humanity in and of itself so one should use such terminology to describe it.

>>64470103
Uhh...no.

>>64450284
Man, I really hate insecure fudds like you.

>>64470109
Is it insecure to think that Germans used to exaggerate their kills for the sake of propaganda? It is practically a historical consensus that Erich's kill count was pure bullshit.

>>64472096
ok.

>>64466486
>Nip is 100% a racial slur
I'm a Jap. You're a Jew. You do not speak for me.

>>64442701 (OP)
probably the one whose engine didn't explode if you took less than 5 minutes to throttle up

>>64442701 (OP)
By every measurable metric other than armament, the P-80

>>64458162
The engines also melted if you increased the throttle too quickly. An inexperienced pilot could cut the engine life in half.

>>64450434
Crazy to imagine the shit we'll live to see.

>>64473310
Afraid a B-52 with an engine upgrade and F-16 Block 420 is the best we can do
>>64470109
>zero argument

>>64442707
Against American jets? 0:0

>>64452454
>the K-14 ("the acemaker") gunsight
Neat. I'd never heard of this before.

From the Pilot Training Manual for the Thunderbolt P-47N:
>As you adjust the K-14 gyroscope gunsight, it automatically gives you the correct lead and shows you the range of the target. In other words, it’s the answer to a poor deflection shooter’s prayer.
>Though exceedingly complicated internally, the sight is easy to operate with a little practice.
>Actually, the K-14 contains 2 sights: The compensating sight, and an ordinary fixed electrical sight. In the fixed sight, a cross has been substituted for the pipper.
>The fixed sight, may be used alone, but ordinarily the cross is employed (with the ring extinguished) to show the amount of lead the gyro sight is allowing.
>The gyro sight consists of a dot surrounded by six small diamonds. Your problem is to place the dot squarely on an enemy plane by maneuvering your Thunderbolt, and keep him properly surrounded by the six diamonds until you shoot him down.
And much like the sight, I'm currently diamonds.

>>64473310
There is something surreal about growing up in the age of muskets, and living to see the development of Hydrogen bomb.

>>64473364
Strictly speaking, that man grew up in the age of the samurai as well. I think, with very precise timing, a samurai turned fighter pilot is just barely within the realm of plausibility

>>64442701 (OP)
VGH, WHAT COVLD HAVE BEEN...

>>64473647
the RLM rejected this not because it wasn't a good fighter but because they wanted heinkel to focus on bombers and messerschmitt to focus on fighters. Having heinkel build fighters would have decreased luftwaffe bomber numbers and overcomplicated logistics.

>>64473889
If they really wanted to simplify things they could've just shot Willy Messy in the back of the head.

>>64473964
I don't follow.

>>64473964
Seethe you fucking kike.

>>64473964
I shot my messy willy in your mom

>>64474007
Why did you call him kike?

>>64473985
>>64474007
Post Me 209.
Post Me 210/410.
Post Amerikabomber.
Messy made 1, maybe 2 really good planes and then spent the rest of the war squandering the resources of the reich.
>>64474092
If I really was a kike then I would've praised messy for making shite planes that killed Nazi test pilots.

>>64474268
Messerschmitt's only shitty plane was the 410

>>64474283
Of course it was that one, anon. It's not like messy actually delivered on his projects. Imagine how much this thing would've fucking sucked if messy actually built it.

>>64451006
>>64472096
I can't speak for Hartmann, but there's a book on Hans Joachim Marseille by Colin Heaton, and he compares all of Marseille's claimed kills with allied loss records, and is able to put a name, unit, and aircraft to Marseille's kills.
There were a few kills he couldn't corroborate, but not many. Discrepancies often stemmed from front-line clerical errors regarding time/date and sometimes misidentification of aircraft.
There were also some kills that were "probable" or claimed as "damaged" but were never confirmed at the time. However, according the the author, he was able to corroborate 11 additional kills for Marseille. So in reality, Marseille got more kills than his official kill count.
The wiki on Marseille is poorly written, I think. Many of the wiki sources are outdated or have been revised since. I've read all of the books on Marseille including Tate's, which is heavily referenced throughout the wiki, and Heaton's is by far the most comprehensive.

Also, for a kill to be confirmed in the North Afrika theater, it had to be verified by multiple sources. Sometimes they used army units on the ground or a Fieseler Storch to spot the claimed enemy wreck on the ground. In Marseille's case, many of the allied pilots were rescued from the desert, by Marseille himself.

Heaton's book does make mention of two German pilots in North Africa who were padding their kills with fake claims by spotting wrecks on the ground and claiming it as their own. The ploy did not last long and the two pilots were demoted and reprimanded.

>>64450801
>Over 100% of GDP
uh...

>>64472161
Now lets see what happened when they got transferred to the western front

>>64470089
Shut the fuck up you ignorant retard.