Thread 64479617

Why didn't HKs guns dominate in the cold war and late coldwar/post cold war era? The MP5 was popular, the G3 was cheaper than the FAL and hk style guns were popular with special forces because they worked with short barrels and suppressors when M16s and FALs wouldn't. why didn't 5.56 HK guns get adopted en masse during the 70s, 80s and 90s? most guns adopted during that time period were just ar-18 clones, including the g36. now it's just AR-15 clones an piston AR-15 clones

>>64479617 (OP)
>Why didn't HKs guns dominate in the cold war and late coldwar/post cold war era?
The United States wanted everyone to adopt 7.62x51mm REAL FUCKING NATO and it would be too costly to replace their rifles with something like the HK33 only ~10 years after the mass adoption of 7.62 and rifles such as the MAS-49/56, G3, FN FAL and BM 59, not to mention the logistics involved in having a separate rifle and MG cartridge with GPMGs still firing 7.62 along side a 5.56 infantry rifle (Germany in particular did not want to replace the G3 until the very end of the cold war), and by the time those weapons became obsolescent and needed replacing many countries were already making their own 5.56 rifles such as the FNC, L85 and FAMAS, relegating the HK33 to third world countries that hadn't already adopted some variant of those, the AR-18 or the M-16 as well as some niche use as a SF weapon.

At least, that's my uneducated take on it.

>>64479693
>The United States wanted everyone to adopt 7.62x51mm REAL FUCKING NATO and it would be too costly to replace their rifles with something like the HK33 only
literally every one of those nations replaced their FALs/G3s with domestic guns. FNCs, SG90s, G36s, L85s, Famas, Aug, ect. I'm saying why did they pick those guns over the HK33/G41, both of which would have been designed and produced in limited quantities around the time those nations switched to 5.56 guns. The HKG41 is literally a stanag HK33 and was developed by 1981. the HK33 existed as far back as the late 1960s

>>64479709
I guess it's because the adoption of the M-16 was a bit of a pain in the ass for the U.S. armed forces so I can see why a lot of other countries with much smaller military budgets were reluctant to adopt anything 5.56 after having adopted 7.62 rifles less than a decade before, much of Europe was broke after WW2 after all.

>>64479722
they still adopted 5.56 guns in the 1980s and 1990s, they just adopted their own domestic guns. Where as when they all switched to 7.62 nato outside of like france and switzerland they all adopted the FAL or G3

>>64479709
The HK33 wasn't very good. It was heavy and underperformed its contemporaries in reliability testing. The HK41 had those problems, plus was more expensive than most other 5.56 guns of its era.

>>64479791
how are roller delayed guns more expensive? I thought the point of the G3 was that it was cheap

>>64479617 (OP)
>now it's just AR-15 clones an piston AR-15 clones
who in the fuck do you think makes those? Like half of Europe uses the HK416. If you're asking why the entire world didn't adopt roller delayed 5.56 guns, it's because the G3 actually sucks. It's reliable sure, but it sucks ass to shoot.

>>64479801
Yes, roller delay was invented solely to churn out conscript rifles quickly and cheaply. And yes, HK found a way to turn that basic design into gucci gear that was twice as expensive as its competition.

>>64479709
>>64479741
>>64479791
>>64479805
Why are these OP topics even posted?
after the year 1965 when the full ground war in Vietnam began the M16 became the default military rifle of the west. Mass adopted due to logistic economy of scale.
Yes correct the HK 33 existed back in the mid-late 1960s and was ready to 'compete' with the M16 but due to scale logistics had no chance nor did any other "competitor" to the M16
Dozens of smaller armies and forces adopted HK 33 / G3 rifles in 7.62 and 5.56 and continued to do so through the 1980s (after which newer mil rifle designs came along)

>>64479617 (OP)
HK tooling was expensive and proprietary.
Also, America adopting a German firearm was just not going to happen post-WW2.

If you want a more flavorful answer it's because America had different doctrinal requirements and different training which shifted throughout the cold war and rarely aligned with the rest of NATO forces.

>>64479855
>Why are these OP topics even posted?
Anti-spam I guess?

>>64479855
>>64479869
I'm not talking about American adoption, retardo. I'm talking about the later part of the cold war where all the nato countries adopted random guns instead of the FAL or G3 and then used HK guns for special forces

>>64479865
why didn't any other nato country adopt them? just price? the bongs adopted a piece of shit to keep costs down?

>>64479889
Probably not just price. I think it'd be reasonable to assume that price was the biggest factor, though.
Also consider the fact that if the cold war were to go hot then the assumption from everyone was Germany would be overrun. For countries that couldn't afford to establish their own factory to manufacture HK rifles their supply of rifles would effectively be cut off at the worst possible time.

>>64479617 (OP)
The MP5 was the only good "first generation" gun made by HK. The G3 was made for poorfag cunts that couldn't afford to adopt the superior FAL. The HK33 was just 5.56 shoehorned into a G3, and consequently overly heavy and cumbersome compared to ARs. By the time most countries (including Germany) were ready to move from 7.62 to 5.56, stamped sheet metal firearms were seen as dated relics of WW2. Most cunts at that point wanted to adopt modern firearms made with aluminum and polymer materials. MP5s did however get adopted en masse by cops and special forces. The first "second generation" HK gun to really take off commercially was the USP, which they made using the lessons they learned from the Mk23 project.

>>64479791
It really isn't that heavy - compared to an M16A2 or M16A4 it's nearly on par/lighter.
The thing is at the time a lot of countries that could have ended up with HK33 were getting US aid M16A1's. Thailand bought and issued G3's and HK33's and they still got a shitload of M16A1 as aid
>>64480755
The G3 is considerably more mechanically accurate than the FAL and the FAL had MAJOR longevity issues due to gas port erosion. How many times do you think some of the longer FAL users had to rebarrel their FAL's - the numbers will surprise you

>>64480755
More than 4 FAL users dropped the FAL for the G3 chum

>>64480787
>The G3 is considerably more mechanically accurate than the FAL
This doesn't really matter in the real world when the FAL has a better recoil impulse and can make better follow-up shots.
>>64480790
Well one of them was Germany so I would hardly count them.

>>64479617 (OP)
I'm not sure what you are talking about. The G3 was very successful. It came a little later than the FAL so it had slightly fewer users but it was license built in far more countries (in fact it still is, which the FAL isn't). I concur that it is both a cheaper and a superior overall weapon to the FAL but by that point a lot of countries had already adopted FALs and didn't want to change (didn't stop Mexico which did exactly that). A big part of it was that the various Ex-British colonial Commonwealth countries standardized on L1A1s which represented a huge bloc of western powers at the time. Keeping things cross compatible mattered more than a better or cheaper rifle.

MP5 was dominant in the SMG role because it was far lighter and more accurate than any open bolt straight blowback SMG could be. The role of the SMG had diminished significantly to a more tactical application or a PDW which are both tasks that the MP5 did better than anything else for a long time.

HK21s were also really popular with countries that wanted a cheaper belt fed GPMG than most other options or were just already tooled up to make/use G3s so it could piggyback off existing logistics and familiarity.

The HK33 was a modest success. By the time it hit the market most countries were either looking at M16s if they wanted 5.56mm or were not quite sure that they wanted to move away from 7.62x51mm quite yet. By the 1980s there were a lot of competing designs as well, and a clunky welded stamped sheet metal rifle with no last round bolt hold open was considered a bit dated. HK did try to design the G41 which used AR magazines but it was kludgy and interest fizzled.

>>64480755
videogamestreamlarper faggot plebbitard

>>64479887
(You) OP are a plebbitard faggotard airsoftlarp 12-year-old Retard.

>>64481046
Mostly this. Also the G41 came along during the 1980s by which time the M16 was then the global standard for the west (yes a lot of smaller armies had already adopted the HK 33). HK's small arms system was effectively sold to a lot of these countries through the 80s (after which newer 5.56 designs arrived and the M4 'development' of the M16 was adopted by United States)
It's all about economies of scale for the adopting militaries, and the U.S. 'pushing' the M16 onto its client states. That's it that's all

>>64479889
>muh nato country Hurr Durr
Every country in NATO already had a rifle selected, 1960-1980. That 'struggle' was over and decided.
RE: the U.K. they had their own late 1960s-70s rifle program, as did (for example) Austria
Trace and study what each 'nato country' military, individuallyl, did during the time period 1955-1980

>>64479865
I don't think that's true. HK was very license happy with the G3 family and readily supplied TDPs to anyone who would pay. That's why we see G3s and MP5s everywhere. HK33 not so much but I think it was licence built in Thailand and a few other countries.

That's still a modest success which is relatively impressive given that every other country was either getting free AKs or M16s from the USSR or US, making their own designs only with blackjack and hookers, or licensing something else for domestic production. The HK33 was a modest success in a crowded market where a lot of options were either subsidized or free* (with some political strings attached of course). No mean feat if you think about it.

>>64481081
Correct, since the Europe military armies' infantry rifle was already covered from 1965-1980 HK (and others such as FN) spent a lot of their effort marketing to so-called third world clients during that period. And as pointed out HK had modest success doing so during that period with the HK 33 and other related arms in the HK System

>>64479887
Because countries back then still had industrial basefor native weapons design and manufacturing. Buying foreign designs back then was a career suicide for politicians.

>>64480787
>at the time a lot of countries that could have ended up with HK33 were getting US aid M16A1s
>Thailand [for example] bought and issued G3s and HK33s and they still got a shitload of M16A1s as aid
This.

>>64481134
This is definitely a related aspect. During the mid-Cold War era from the west / U.S. perspective, the United States was trying to figure out how to 'arm up' a lot of the smaller countries "against communism" as fast and cheaply as possible. This logistical philosophy was part of what inspired the AR-18 design (which also, was largely kaboshed by the mass-M16-adoption of post-1965 discussed upthread). The AR-18 was intended not as a rifle for the U.S. or Nato militaries to widely adopt but for smaller 'less-developed' countries to be able to cheaply produce.

>>64479791
>The HK33 wasn't very good
Take that back, cunt.

>>64481163
Another thing to keep in mind specifically about the 1965-1980 era, and even more specifically about the mid-nineteen sixties, was that even in the incipient first few years of its official U.S. military adoption 1964-66 the M16 was still an "on trial" and an unknown, unproven quantity. No one knew for sure if it was going to pay off, stay around or be a success and this could ? have been a reason that HK wasn't 'faster on the draw' with introducing its 5.56 mm chambered rifle. By 1968 and later of course, it was becoming obvious that the 5.56 mm M16 was going to be the standard United States infantry rifle going forward and many military armies/services around the world and the west could see that it was going to remain so for the foreseeable future.

Beretta and SIG were already developing their own 5.56 rifle in the year 1963
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_530
(later morphed into the parallel Beretta-only AR 70)

FN's FNC didn't come along until the mid-1970s. (by then it was far too late, the M16 family had already won the west)

>>64481046
>>64481066
most yurocuck nations adopted random shit like the AUG, Famas, L85, SG90 ect, not the m16

>>64481053
you are a nogunz yurotranny

>>64479617 (OP)
I think a big part of the problem with these HK guns and a big reason why most countries have moved towards AR derivative platforms is modularity and ease of update/repair, especially out in the field or in less ideal environments.

Using any of the HK stamped guns as an example - let's say you get a squib and ring your barrel.
You need to punch the barrel pin out, press the barrel out of the rifle trunnion, press a new barrel in, verify the headspace is correct, drill and ream for a new barrel pin, press the barrel pin in place, press a new front sight on, and zero.
You're going to need a vice, punches, drill press or milling machine, accurate bits and headspace gauges, and a shop press to accomplish this repair AT MINIMUM, as well as someone experienced and competent enough to do the work in the first place.

For an AR derivative (again, at minimum), you're going to need a vice, a barrel nut wrench, and an allen hex key or punch to drive gas block pins out.
You're also not going to need an actual armorer or machinist, any ape with a couple braincells can watch a YouTube video and pull it off inside a half hour.
This ease of repair is largely because the barrel comes pre-headspaced.
If you're using a fixed FSB you're going to need a taper bit to drill new pin holes in the fresh barrel, and that's about the most complex operation.
This also assumes you're not just going to swap a fresh, spare upper onto your lower and instantly have an operating weapon again.

All of this obviously matters less of you're not in a combat situation and can readily spare the time and man hours to R&R, but it's still a line item cost you need to contend with.

>>64481079
yeah, why did third world nato countries select trash like the g36 or l85 over the hk33/g41

>>64481284
>>64481289
btfo trannyplebbitard coping for his faggotard OP 'topic'
Read the thread (ignore the first 8 replies)

What's hilarious about the zoomlennial generation is that they have *absolutely zero* sense of history or what a Timeline is. They think/conceive of 'reality' as some videogame where everything of any configuration is instantly conjurable/spawn-able in the present moment as their plaything. They simply don't understand what history itself or a timeline is, or that one thing comes prior to/precedes another.

>>64481296
>g36
That's 1990s and later.
Not the timeline being discussed itt
(as already noted upthread, the U.K. infantry rifle program began in the 1960s. So did the French FAMAS)

>>64479617 (OP)
>G3 entered production a full seven years after the FAL
>HK33 entered production a full decade after the M16
>HK was a relatively new company that didn't have the business contacts to sell to post-colonial shitholes in need of a modern infantry rifle that FN had
>G3 is too unreliable to compete with the FAL (the weapon of choice for killing Africans, as other Africans will attest)
>HK33 too expensive and not manufactured in large enough quantities to compete with the M16
>G36 is a literal flaming piece of shit that will melt in your hands

At least it's not the SA80.

>>64481284
Most cunts still wanted to adopt indigenous main battle rifles as a matter of national pride up until the 2000's and 2010's when the aftermarket development around the AR-15 and subsequently the HK 416 really took off.

>>64481311
>entered production a full decade
Wrong. HK 33 began production only 5 years after the XM16E1
rest of (You)r plebbitard 55-IQ garbage isn't worth the bandwidth

>>64481304
you sure are one angry troon. I didn't read your post
>>64481308
g36 over g41 is still relevant

>>64481342
ok nogunz faggotvideogamestreamairsoftlarperplebbitard.

>>64481456
I own multiple guns. guns are banned in your country

>>64481483
(You) have never been within 10 miles of a firearm
fucking zoomlennial faggot plebbitard vidoegameairsoftstreamlarper tranny fucktarded Fuckwad plebbit cheetostained faggot.

>>64481495
I own multiple guns. you wear women's clothing

>>64481505
(You) are a fucking faggot plebbitard nogunz videogamestreamlarperairsoft 55-IQ faggot.
and a Faggot.
btfo of own OP self-owned

>>64479617 (OP)
Can either of you fags just post a gun? Even a bullet? Something other than shitting this thread up?

>>64481530
It's the OP queefing on his faggot OP 'topic'
He was totally btfo after my educated postings upthread.

What's hilarious about the zoomlennial generation is that they have *absolutely zero* sense of history or what a Timeline is. They think/conceive of 'reality' as some videogame where everything of any configuration is instantly conjurable/spawn-able in the present moment as their plaything. They simply don't understand what history itself or a timeline is, or that one thing comes prior to/precedes another.

>>64481525
>>64481542
you eat human shit and love sucking dick

Thailand made a localized version, and even a bullpup version for no discernable reason.

>>64481546
What a useless post, did you think you sounded smart typing all that out?

>>64481804
With a fucking A1 carry handle slapped on top, LMAO. Perfection.
That thing must have the absolute worst trigger out of just about any bullpup in the history of firearms development.

>>64481542
>>64481525
>>64481495
>>64481546
shit eating no gunz turbo tranny

>>64481809
>>64482004
keep coping videogamelarper nogunz Faggot.
fucking Faggot

>>64479617 (OP)
HK has always been an advertising company with guns as a side business.

>>64479791
>HK33 wasn't good
BULLSHIT

>>64482172
Another that has absolutely zero idea or frame of reference of what they're posting

>>64481804
>oh no need to shoot from the left shoulder
>lose eye and or a tooth every trigger pull
Roller delayed blowback is literally the only thing WORSE for a bullpup than Stoner DI.

>>64482190
Anyone that disagrees with me is a moron that fell for their advertising that never pans out in actual trials.
The SAS using MP5s, who never had a bigger job most of the time other than bullying micks, is the only actual example of HKs being used in the later Cold War era being discussed by any 'real military'.
Otherwise HK is an advertising company, not a firearms engineering company.

>>64482267
You have to be 18 to post here

>>64482267
bongs used HK33s and G3s because they couldn't cut down or suppress their L1A1s or L85s

>>64482136
you eat human shit and dont own guns, subhuman yurotroon

>>64479617 (OP)
Is this a prime example of a perfect film?

>>64482399
yeah, because there are no women in it. Master and Commander is kino for the same reason

>>64482258
This anon actually shoots.

>>64482136
I have an XCR and a Caracal F next to me at this very moment. No I will not take a picture of them, I just want you to know they're there.

>>64482957
just shut the fuck up faggot 'muh xcr caracal' fucking goddamned faggot fucktarded fuckwad faggot fuck
Fuck you (You) little faggot larping faggotard fucktarded brainlet plebbitard Fuck,.