Thread 64487203

Did they ever bring back the pdw concept? less the muh russian armor and more the lighter backline weapon that's smaller than a service rifle and bigger than a handgun and has a stock. or do they just make all noncombat troops carry "full sized" M4s/other nato rifles?

No, because the long-barrelled rifle is dead and buried. Every non-bullpup service rifle adoption of the last 20 years has been 16" or less.

>>64487203 (OP)
No, they did not.
Muh Russian armor has outpaced the handgun cartridge development so quickly and thoroughly that the idea of even backline troops having to fight for their lives with SMGs is too retarded to consider. SMGs still have their use as police or special operations weapons in situations where you can't reasonably expect a firefight with an element armed and armored to conventional military standard. But in actual military service, everyone gets a rifle, even if it's a small one. Even the pilots, with extremely limited size and weight of their bugout kit and equally limited marksmanship training, still get a compact carbine.

>>64487203 (OP)
>or do they just make all noncombat troops carry "full sized" M4s/other nato rifles?
pretty much this
while an M4 is still longer than a P90, its still short enough to handle inside a truck, and you have the bonus of using the same guns and bullets that everyone else in the army uses

>>64487203 (OP)
>or do they just make all noncombat troops carry "full sized" M4s/other nato
Yes, it's a lot more cost effective

>>64487230
>Muh Russian armor has outpaced the handgun cartridge development so quickly and thoroughly that the idea of even backline troops having to fight for their lives with SMGs is too retarded to consider
P90 doesn't penetrate rifle plates but so does M4.

>>64487230
All of this only applies if every single troop is issued nothing but tungsten core ammo. Nothing else can pen quality plates or nowadays even quality helmets. That (tungsten for everyone) is very obviously never going to happen, especially in the second and third world. So there's not really any major advantage of 5.56 or larger calibers over handgun calibers.

>>64487289
>nothing but tungsten core ammo
>never going to happen
IDK how poor NATO finds itself nowadays, but I've seen more than enough Russian soldiers carelessly manhandling bricks and zincs of 5.45 PPBS out in the field.

>there's not really any major advantage
There's actually a bunch of major advantages. 5.56 or 5.45 is way faster (=flatter shooting) out of the same length barrels than the spiciest 9mm or even 5.7, and longer bullets with better BC keep more of the energy further downrange. Again, in some contexts that's a drawback, but in a military one it's absolutely a bunch of advantages worth taking up space and weight budget for.

>>64487272
Most of flavors of 5.7 out of a P90 would struggle to penetrate frag-rated extremity armor packets on modern military body armor sets at range beyond 100m, nevermind the plates.

>>64487289
>never going to happen
Gayrapean projection

>>64487341
if you're shooting a P90 past 50m god has abandoned you

>>64487203 (OP)
PDWs as a role are not really a thing but they've found a niche as dedicated special forces bullet hoses for missions in which armor may or may not be a concern but you're going to be at dick-in-ass close quarters and you need both full auto and very controllable and comfortable shooting. SBRs needing to be suppressed rules them out for a lot of these kinds of missions and so does the harsher recoil, gas and noise.

>>64487341
>Most of flavors of 5.7 out of a P90 would struggle to penetrate frag-rated extremity armor packets on modern military body armor sets at range beyond 100m, nevermind the plates.
Well how close is the protective capability of the Crisat target to level 3A kevlar shoulder pannel? The OG 5.7 and 4.6mm designs that used steel tip or had a steel core can penetrate the crisat target out to 200 meters. The crisat target is 1.6mm titanium backed by 20 layers of kevlar. Most kevlar extremity armor range from 5 layers of kevlar up to 30+ layers of kevlar depending on the protective requirement.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110707175011/http://www.asianmilitaryreview.com/upload/200712031747321.pdf

The same crisat target however can be penetrated by a standard 5.56 m855 ball round at a range of 550 meters and penetrate 3 spaced 1mm and 3 stacked 1mm aluminum plates behind it.

I doubt there are any neck, shoulder and groin protectors that could reliably defeat 5.7 below 200 meters but you could also just use 5.56 and reliable defeat the same targets at over twice the range of 5.7

>>64487341
>bricks and zincs of 5.45 PPBS out in the field

Does 7N39 actually go through level 4 plates?
I'm not convinced, at 850 m/s and 63gr it's just pretty damn close to a physical impossibility regardless of what the penetrator is made of.
Plus IIRC there's 7N39M in the works that is supposed to be better at penetrating ceramic so it would seem they're not all they're cracked up to be (outside of Tarkov anyway).

Anyway "more than enough" is a massive overstatement, a negligible fraction of the ammo produced and issued contains a carbide penetrator, it's just a financially and industrially nonviable, and that applies for much bigger players than Russia.

>>64487500
Close range SS190 penetrates 100 layers of kevlar.
4.6 DM11 penetrates 120 layers.

>>64487341
>Most of flavors of 5.7 out of a P90 would struggle to penetrate frag-rated extremity armor packets on modern military body armor sets at range beyond 100m,
You are talking nonsense.

Can kevlar rags peddlers ever recover for this?

>>64487203 (OP)
The adoption of 6.8mm as the service rifle round opens back up the "pdw" idea, however that pdw already exists as the M4 Carbine including the 11.5" stubbies.

Also there's .300blk which is a fine hunting and home defense round, but has it ever been used by a government or commercial armed security?

.

>>64487781
>The adoption of 6.8mm as the service rifle round opens back up the "pdw" idea,
Standart M4 with 14" barrel de feacti becomes PDW. 6.8mm is only for 100K grunts, rest of the 1 millions POGs would remain armed with M4.

>>64487721
wait, 36mm? iirc, an inch is like 25mm, so to stop 5.7, you need an inch and a half of soft armor. is that even a thing?

>>64487814
That is the point.
Typical IIIA vests are 15-30 layers of ballistic fabric.

>>64487341
>Most of flavors 5.7 out of a P90
I dont really see the relevance of counting rounds ment for the civilian market or cops when discussing rear line troops that would always be armed with SS190 rounds for their P90's.
>5.7 out of a P90 would struggle to penetrate frag-rated extremity armor packets on modern military body armor sets at range beyond 100m
Depends on what round but using the default round for any military (which is SS190) then it would have no problem defeating frag rated extremity armor out to 200 meters going by pic related.
>nevermind the plates.
That is the only thing it wont penetrate on a russian soldier assuming he does infact have plates.