Thread 64495560

https://militarnyi.com/en/news/u-s-unhappy-with-japan-s-role-in-gcap-fighter-development-report/
>Washington is pressuring Tokyo through diplomatic and economic channels — including potential threats to bilateral security cooperation — over Japan’s participation in the program.
>The United States is said to be concerned about the level of autonomy Japan would gain through GCAP.
>Israeli intelligence services have also reportedly sought to influence the program over concerns that Saudi Arabia may eventually join.
Riyadh signed a declaration of intent to participate in March 2023. In November 2024, Italy’s foreign minister acknowledged the possibility of Saudi involvement.

>>64495560 (OP)
makes sense. why give them any allowance when they can be easily forced to buy the F-47 at double the price and half the capabilities of the American F-47's?

>>64495560 (OP)
>The U.S. and Israeli governments are reportedly unhappy with Japan’s involvement in the GCAP sixth-generation fighter development program, led jointly by the United Kingdom, Italy and Japan.
Interesting...

How is the world's most powerful country still afraid of Japan after 80 years?

>>64495560 (OP)
>militarnyi
Well-poisoning grogg.

>>64495560 (OP)
>Some European countries starts to develop the Tornado in the 1970s
>the US starts kvetching
>Japan starts the FSX program and advanced turbofans development
>the US starts bitching
>Euros starts to develop the EFA and Meteor
>all the sudden the US starts to offer the JSF, best block of the AMRAAM and turbo bitching
>2025
>US: once I'm here to start bitching

>>64495560 (OP)
>Fucks over Japan with forced cooperation on the F-2 program because they were afraid of Japanese aerospace independence
>Nooo Japan, why are you working with other countries for the F-3. Yeah we are still afraid of your independence, but we wont screw you over this time we promise.
What fucking geniuses of foreign policy. They should have known this ship had long sailed back when Japan denied the YF-23 with F-35 internals and full access to F-35 source code. Now Japan is neck deep in a bunch of contracts and agreements that make it nearly impossible to make a clean exit without having billions of dollars in obligations to fulfil.

>>64495560 (OP)
>>64495601
>>64495629
>>64495634
>samefagging this hard
You're either a gook, chinsect, or vatnig trying to form a wedge in-between the US and Japan.

>>64495686
>Why does people don't have fish memory and actually reads about history
>We wuz supposedly to be immaculate
>whaaaaaaaaaa
Faggot.

>>64495560 (OP)
A lord bringing an uppity vassal to heel

>>64495694
>Why does people don't have fish memory
Nice Engrish, faggot. Now, fuck off you samefagging gook.

>>64495871
>no self-awareness
>no understanding of consequences
As expected.

>>64495560 (OP)
>This is reported by the Infodefensa with reference to Intelligence Online
They both have zero sources on this. Its just made up bullshit.
im sure all the third world brownoids will buy it though, OP.

America knows that Japan can and will pull an Order 66

East Asians carry grudges for eons

>>64495686
>>64495871
The US put a 15% tariff on japs AND made them pay $550 billion and you still think that there isn't a wedge between the US and japan?
Don't let Trump know that the japs are actually enjoying being fucked in the ass. He already looks like he got several blowies from takaichi when he dragged her into the American aircraft carrier and paraded her around in front of US troops.
Picrel. From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSqHp7vL0-g
I've seen shit from facial abuse that's less embarrassing than this. But by all means, keep shilling the japs. They need all the shilling they can get recently.

>>64495902
>pic
That looks wrong in a way I cannot describe.

>>64495902
>be jap
>get nuked
>get nuked again
>get constitution written by the nukers
>the moment things start to go well, get nuked economically
>so cucked at this point that PM has to teach population what sex is
>didn't like that so blew that PM's head off in the street
>offer new PM's holes to try and salvage relations
>get nuked by tariffs anyway
>gcap on chopping block
Guys, I think that we should just let the weeb screech "gookshill" to his heart's content. What else does he have going for him at this point? Give him his cope or he'll go rope.

>>64495560 (OP)
Fake news unironically

>>64495560 (OP)
Is that even a credible source?

>>64495560 (OP)
Thank God the US is heading down the shitter in terms of a society and they will not be able to pull this shit for much longer.
I hope the japs won't let themselves be bullied this way seeing how GCAP is literally the only 6th gen project that is going smoothly.

>>64495993
>>64496040
Unironically real news. https://www.infodefensa.com/texto-diario/mostrar/5301772/eeuu-e-israel-incomodos-programa-aviones-combate-britanico-italiano-japones-gcap

>>64496059
Anon, that's not a source.

>>64496059
forgot to mention, the news is true, but it's old from earlier in the year. Japan took these threats and wiped their asses with it as since then 2 new Joint Ventures for GCAP were established.
No amount of bitching from the US is going to deter Japan from developing the GCAP.

>>64496063
Yes, my bad. I knew that nowadays mutts acted like chinks and prefer to ignore everything that doesn't suit their worldviews but I mistakenly tought you could be argued with. Carry on, feel free to ignore everything in this thread since it's fake.

>>64496054
Especially after Japan helped with the F-22 and then got fucked by the US when they asked to buy it themselves.

The US started this 20 years ago and it was obvious at the time what it would result in. The US was fine when the X-2 project was going on, but now we have GCAP with real legs and potential for wider export success and the US wants them to buy American again?

What a joke.

>>64496059
>>64496068
No, I mean it says the source is an "intelligence online" article from earlier in the week that I can't seem to find on the intelligence online website. And it isn't linked in the article you provided.

So it's literally unsourced.

>>64496054
>only one going smoothly

The only one going poorly is FCAS. There hasn’t been negative news about any other one. The US has been claiming demonstrators flew years ago, and with a contract having been awarded that most likely means there was a fly off since that’s general USAF practice. China is confident enough in theirs to fly them broad daylight over major cities. GCAP seems to be going well on the administrative side, but is also yet to produce a flying demonstrator. There’s a lot of ground to cover there before it can claim to be doing better than other countries.

>>64496077
https://www.intelligenceonline.com/americas/2025/05/22/tokyo-feels-the-heat-from-washington-and-mossad-amid-gcap-jet-programme-developments,110453947-eve

>>64495629
>why don't you invest in defense, fucking free riders?
>nooo, why do you invest in defense?
it really do be like dat

>>64496078
The US only has a CGI image, China has tailless doritos and no history of actually ever having developed any of the technologies required for 5th gens, let alone 6th gen. And FCAS is dead
Meanwhile GCAP is the only country who has shown their progress and has a demonstrator currently being built for 2027.

>>64495560 (OP)
>U.S. Unhappy
Nobody fucking cares

>>64496079
Which itself is unsourced with simply the vague "intelligence online has learned"

Also the infodefensa article is dated today, claiming the intelligence online article was from last week, when the article you linked is from 5-6 months ago.

>>64496089
>what is protecting a source
>May 26, 2025
>today
You drunk?

>>64496092
>what is protecting a source
journo code for "I made it the fuck up"

>>64496084
>and no history of actually ever having developed any of the technologies required for 5th gens
what are you talking about? why would they bother building 5th gens when that technology is already decades old?
they've already displayed modern networking capabilities as shown in the recent indian-paki air war, stealth shaping into the airframe design, the helmet used in the J10C is comparable to the one used in the F35 in terms of features, the list goes on - their new planes don't look identical to F35 modernization sketches drawn up by a YF23 designer for nothing

it is dangerous beyond measure to underestimate your enemies

>>64496092
>what is protecting a source
If you're a small town jurno writing about local politics, go right ahead.

When you're talking about the largest multinational military program outside of the F-35 program, I'm gonna need a little more backing before I buy that shit. Maybe if it were news being broken by Jane's I'd have bought it.

>>64496097
>they've already displayed modern networking capabilities as shown in the recent indian-paki air war, stealth shaping into the airframe design, the helmet used in the J10C is comparable to the one used in the F35 in terms of features, the list goes on -
Bwhahahahahahaa. They barely have an HMCS and giving a missile steering cues via AWACS datalink is literally 90s tech.
>their new planes don't look identical to F35 modernization sketches drawn up by a YF23 designer for nothing
their new tailless doritos are literally a carbon copy of the NASA study on stealth from decades ago.

>>64496084
The US rarely shows off the actual advanced stuff until they can’t hide it anymore. We only know for sure RQ-180 exists because of two low quality photos of it in flight, otherwise it would just be a rumor. China has been making a ton of investment in its domestic aero industry and is the only one to show off their flying articles. Saying your picrel makes GCAP the world leader is the same as saying mine puts Northrop Grumman ahead of everyone else. GCAP is pretty solidly in third, which is solid for a multinational program but also needs perfectly smooth sailing for the next decade to keep that spot.

>>64496111
...so then according to you, they HAVE demonstrated developing the technologies required for 5th gens...?

>>64496102
please refer back to >>64496068

>>64496122
Lol feel free to be smug about an unsourced rumor. I really don't give a shit what fantasy you pretend is reality.

>>64495560 (OP)
Another iconic special relationship™ momento for the history books.

>>64496113
The difference is my pic is an actual demonstrator being built, while your pic from the NG promotional video is clearly a training aid for digital manufacturing.

>>64496118
If to you an HMCS is 5th gen then sure, lmao.
>>64496126
This unsourced rumor is making you having a meltdown tho. Try to remember that you don't believe in this rumor, so there is no reason for you to be upset.

>>64496130
DARPA claims a demonstrator in 2019, another in 2022, and Gen. Allvin says the first F-47 is under construction with a first flight targeted for 2028. China has articles, either demonstrators or prototypes, flying today. A partially completed center fuselage for a plane that will have tails, won’t use variable cycle engines, and won’t fly before 2027 is not a leading position.

>>64495560 (OP)
>militarnyi
>>64496059
>infodefensa
>>64496079
>intelligenceonline

>>64496144
You're free to believe whatever you want. Personally, I don't believe a. partial, GCI picture is evidence of anything since it's as believable as chinese propaganda. If that makes you seethe then I'm sorry.

>>64495560 (OP)
It doesn't surprise me, it's not the first time that the US tries to undermine the tempest/gcap program. TACO even sent an envoy to the pastas to try and join gcap.
see >https://www.agenzianova.com/en/news/Trump%27s-special-envoy-to-Italy-Zampolli-discussed-the-US-entry-into-the-gcap-program/

>>64496149
>China desperately wants at least an idea of what the F-47 looks like so they can model defenses against it or more likely copy the next gen template to make their own, but the the US has been tighter than a nun's ass about everything surrounding this plane. This info would have especially been a quantum leap for them when the NGAD program started in 2014 and chink tech aerospace was still well in infancy, and that still extends to today. Starting in the beginning of 2022 when NGAD was bought to the spotlight as the USAF's next gen fighter with some $5b in contracts being doled out for competitors to work on the engine which made the plane's progress since it's 2019 demonstrator flights very concrete. Interestingly enough 3 years later we get 3-4 cobbled together demonstrators being 'leaked' ie. flown slowly over population centers and parked in open hangars. This is followed by a flood of chinkspam claiming that every single sighting is 'China's 6th gen' saying that they're flying before the NGAD, the NGAD doesn't exist, etc... One thing that chinksects forgot is that burgers don't have a face culture hardwired into their psyche, so this literally means nothing to the government or people actually involved in the program. There is nothing to 'clap back' when the program has been secret from the get go.

>>64496161
who are you quoting?

>>64496164
You can search the archive to find out

>>64496149
The last new USAF fighter airframe to be procured without a competitive fly off was the F-15, five decades ago. We know the name of the program, Aerospace Innovation Initiative, and that it was funded since 2016. There are program patches that surfaced suggesting the Boeing demonstrator was called “Voodoo II” in house. Reminder that picrel is close to the only evidence we have that the RQ-180 exists, DoD can keep a secret when it actually wants to.

>>64496166
I mean, I agree with the post. China can't create anything by themselves without copying it. But I'm not brainwashed enough to believe that a incomplete CGI picture unveiled early just to please Trump is actual evidence of the F-47 actually existing right now. I'll belive it when I see it fly.

>>64495560 (OP)
Looks like the US is scared.

>>64496157
>agenzianova
lmao

>>64496177
What, do you think that these announcements were made just in response to china and for Trump? The program started in 2014, test flights in 2019, which was announced in 2020. The downselect announcement earlier this year needed to be done anyway so they included some theatrics with it. You are making asinine points.

>>64495560 (OP)
>>The United States is said to be concerned about the level of autonomy Japan would gain through GCAP.
UH BUT I HEARD THE KILLSWITCH ISN'T REAL?

>>64496265
The "kill switch" is the spare parts supply chain and the software that only the US can update.

It won't turn the F-35s off over night, but a year or two cut off from spare parts and software updates is going to be just as effective.

>>64496254
No, you're just salty that I don't blindly believe whatever the US or China says.

>>64496242
What's wrong with it?
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2025/03/03/trump-associate-floats-idea-of-transatlantic-warplane-program/

>>64496269
One side has a long history of under selling their aircraft capability and delivering high tech as of yet unseen technology in their new airframes

The other side has been playing catchup for decades, has consistently overstated their airframe capabilities and these would be the first truly ground breaking technology introduced in their airframes before someone else did it first.

And you want me to believe you're being objective?

>>64496268
>but a year or two
Either that's a very optimistic view of the efficacy of even perfectly effective sanctions, or F35 maintainability is as bad as detractors have been saying all this time.

>>64496285
Yes, because I don't believe either of them. The US of today is not the US of the 70s. Especially Boeing who isn't even able to deliver the T-38 replacement on time and their civilian planes keep crashing. The brownification of the US paired with end stage capitalism/private equity everything is starting to show its side effects.

>>64496289
Larger fleets like Japan could go longer, but smaller fleets with only a few dozen airframes?
You'll be lucky to have more than 10 flying by next year.

>>64496296
Go choke on your wife's boyfriend cock

>>64495902
>>64495932
chat is this real? this would literally be a declaration of war for any sovereign country

>>64496268
I don't believe the US doesn't have a true kill switch somewhere. Read Snowden's book, to show the japanese top brass what they could do the NSA turned off multiple electrical plants in japan with a single button. There is no way the US didn't implement such a failsafe in the case one of the F-35 customers became an enemy of the US in the future.

>>64496300
I accept your defeat.
>cuckoldry out of nowhere
sorry I'm not american.

>>64496309
I doubt it, and as of yet, no one has shown any evidence if it existing.

>>64496312
You're a europoor that sold out to chinks so that's even worse

>>64496312
It's like 4-6am in America right now, I doubt most posters here right now are American.

>>64496319
China literally owns the US via debt, and your president just returned from a tour of shame where he had to bow to winnie the pooh to let him buy rare earth minerals again. But sure, go off proud latinx.
Also, this is /k/, not /pol/.

>>64496330
By that metric, Japan owns the US since they own more US debt than China.

The UK also owns the US as again, they hold more US debt than China.

>>64496330
Every single metric you just bought up here is worse for euros by orders of magnitude. Also you don't get to say shit about this not being about weapons when you bought up immigration of all things first.

>>64496347
>Every single metric you just bought up here is worse for euros by orders of magnitude
You're free to believe whatever delusions make you sleep at night, but please try to keep it /k/ related.

The whole point of the GCAP is to not have the likes of Germany, France, Sweden, Greeks and Zionists dictate who the partners can sell fighter jets to or not.

>>64496386
>Greeks
It's kinda funny how they always bitch and moan every time Italy or France sells stuff to the turks. If they put even half of that effort in their finances/military they wouldn't be in the position to only be able to buy finished products.

>>64496394
Well lucky for them, there isn't a chance in hell turkey will be allowed to buy GCAP.

And Germany would likely veto an FCAS sale.

>>64496386
I feel like the GCAP will have a big market in the indo pacific especially for Australia.

>>64496404
None of them can afford it besides Australia.

The only two nations I see buying GCAP as of right now, are Saudi Arabia and Australia.

>>64496330
No it doesn't you fucking retarded shitskin

>>64496399
>FCAS
Anon, I...

>>64496484
Trust me, I'm with you.

I'm just saying in the event FCAS does ever exist, Germany would veto a theoretical sale to turkey.

By extension, does this mean that the French are secretly sabotaging European defence on America's orders?

>>64496386
Wut, that's true for the others, especially Greece and Germany, but France doesn't give a shit who they sell to, a sale is a sale, questionable or not.

>>64495560 (OP)
>Japan: We want to buy the F-22
>USA: We can't sell it to you
>Japan: Then I will produce my own figther
>USA: OH NNONONONOO!!!!

>>64496675
It should be mentioned that Japan asked for the F-22 when it was still relevant. After a couple of decades the US tried to sell the F-22 to them, but Japan went no thanks, fuck you.

>>64496399
>there isn't a chance in hell turkey will be allowed to buy GCAP
I wouldn't be so sure

>>64495574
Logistics unity is a real win for everyone even if they gimp it (it's japan they won't).

>>64496113
RQ-180 has a goddamn wiki page

Japan's tech demonstrator is better than west taiwan's temu fighter jets.

>>64496411
What about Vietnam and Taiwan? Vietnam will have a GDP of $1.5T by 2035, assuming they keep up the growth they've been having for the past decade. They're also distancing themselves from Russia and the Chicoms. Taiwan will never get American 6th gens too, the espionage risk is too high.

>>64496169
I swear I saw these things flying around all the time outside of a large boeing facility in the 10s.

>>64496313
>no one has shown any evidence if it existing.
But they believe it does which is why GCAP and FCAS exists.

>>64496691
They didn't try and sell them shit they tried to pretend they could build F-22s with mothballed tooling and a manufacturing base that doesn't exist in real life. The idea was to kill their domestic aviation industry it had fuck all to do with the F-22.

Honestly america is a pretty shit "ally" at the end of the day but it really shows how horrible china is for everyone to put up with us.

>>64496729
The US is free to buy Tempest if they care so much about streamlining logistics

>>64495686
are you just admitting that everyone in the region, possibly including Japan, see American involvement as self serving and without value?
Y'all niggers (hard R) about to turn this into another middle east huh.

>>64496386
>The whole point of the GCAP is to not have the likes of Germany, France, Sweden, Greeks and Zionists dictate who the partners can sell fighter jets to or not.
Wrong, GCAP's purpose is to maintain or improve the aerospace industry in the partner nations.
>>64496554
Correct, the only thing France cares about is that there is at least one variant that can be launched from carriers.

>>64496794
Based

Fuck the US with boeing and lockshart, that market needs competition.

>>64496146
militarnyi is a normal ukie website

>>64496943
yurp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Orje7sEH2M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCbRq4F0RV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAt1THsS2Pw

>>64496956
Keep it on reddit

>>64496952
all 3 websites are normal news sites. He just doesn't like what he reads so he decides to attack the messenger.

>>64496985
Do some critical thinking. This report from a single unverified source was made months ago at the beginning of the year with no further follow up. It is nearly the end of the year. Has the GCAP program been shut down?

>>64497011
>Has the GCAP program been shut down?
With what leverage anon? they aren't not even using US engines.

>>64497011
>you must believe the US would never do such a thing!
>they didn't doxx the source of the rumor therefore it's completely made up!
>our bullying didn't work therefore it never happened.
Do some critical thinking, anon. Look at the recent TACO economical retaliations against Japan and it all falls into place.

>>64496706
Japan would veto it.

The risk for leaking technology knowledge to a nation that's attempting to develop their own domestic fighter industry is too great. And realistically the UK wouldn't allow it either.

>>64496979
Politics and especially failure to properly ascertain geopolitical, cultural and relational strengths and weaknesses can both be a preventative and causative factor for retarded wars and declines of world powers.
You can pout and mutter "muh reddit" all you like but it remains the truth all the same.
If you can't mount a rebuttal just don't post at all or more helpfully point out "dude that's irrelevant to GCAP" (which it isn't actually, especially relating to purchase and development decisions and long term national strategies in arms procurement)

>>64495902
>trump convinces japan to go to war with china by treating their top hag like one of his mar-a-lago hoes
My sense of reality goes down every morning because of shit like this

>>64496082
The US thinks Euros should spend more on their own defense but only if they buy American products.

>>64497363
I mean, what the fuck was japan supposed to do?

>It's 2000-2005 and Japan needs high-end 5th gen+ air superiority fighter
>Japan asks their friends the US if they'll sell them the brand new F-22
>the US tells them to fuck off and stop asking
>It's 2006, Japan starts early development stages for the future X-2 Shin Shin
>around 2011 Japan eventually buys the F-35 from the US because it's better than nothing, but you still not the high-end air superiority fighter they need for the 2030s and beyond.
>It's 2014 and Japan shows off the X-2 Shin Shin airframe doing wind tunnel testing, it's set to fly in 1-2 years
>The US sleeps
>It's 2016 and Japan flies the X-2 Shin Shin
>It's 2018, the X-2 program has finished the test flight campaign and decides it's not quite what they need yet and decides to roll the X-2 R&D program into a 6th gen program (F-X) with a goal to enter service by 2035.
>For this program the US offers a YF-23 + F-35
>Japan says fuck off, we're doing it ourselves or with the UK
>A few years later in 2021 japan formally joins the UK and Italy in GCAP
>It's 2025 and the US starts to whine about japan not buying the future F-47 (which they've previously indicated wouldn't be for export sale, like the F-22)

The US only have themselves to blame, this has played out over 25+ years now all fairly publicly.

>>64497401
italy is not in gcap, it's spain

>>64497415
You got it mixed up. Spain is in FCAS.

>>64497415
Anon, you're simply wrong

FACS is France/Germany/Spain
GCAP is UK/Japan/Italy

>>64497418
>FACS
FCAS

>>64497418
As long as there is also nocap I will appreciate it either way.

>>64497418
FCAS is fucked due to the French being involved. Makes me said because I want to see Luftwaffe 6th-Gen fighters before I die.

>>64497401
It started even earlier in the '90s with the F-2 program facing problems with the US limiting the technology sharing so japan had to spend a fair bit of their own time/money on development work the US had already done.

The F-22 deal was the straw that broke the camel's back, but Japan was already not super happy from the issues seen in the F-2.

>>64497363
Are you an idiot or something? Japan literally wanted to do that, to buy the F-22.

>>64497552
Which is even worse, the US wants Japan to buy American but doesn't want to sell them the weapons they're actually after.
>>64497510
>japan had to spend a fair bit of their own time/money on development work
The US also got whatever tech the nips developed during the program for free btw
They also got 40% of the workshare for a supposedly "domestic" japanese fighter

>>64496411
Norway/Switzerland/Netherlands/Singapore?

>>64498115
All us lapdogs or without the need for a deep strike bomber/air supremacy platform

>>64495686
Wrong again.
Kill yourself.

>>64498115
Norway, the Netherlands, and Switzerland have F-35 and a minimal need/desire to replace them with long-range air superiority aircraft.

Singapore might be able to afford GCAP, but they're already purchasing F-35 as well, they might be interested in GCAP to replace their F-15's and F-16s, but it would be expensive and they'd likely only order a few dozen airframes to complement their F-35s.


For larger orders, Saudi Arabia is the primary target.

>>64495902
>pic
>why have i to be here with this caveman
>wait, that is insulting to cavemen

>>64495560 (OP)
oh wow is that ziondon sabotaging developed countries again for financial interests of tel aviv with all the blame flowing to the US when it isn't in our interest at all to have a weak japan

>>64496309
>The NSA revealed its power and burnt half a million in outage costs to aura farm on some gooks

Truly convincing stuff from mister RT himself (contractor, btw, never actually in the NSA)

>>64498425
To be fair USA has always been a fickle ally.

>>64497047
Greeks are this delusional. Maybe imvest in your STEM instead of hotels and nightclubs for lower class Bong tourists.

>>64499075
I mean, it's reality you dumb faggot.

I'm not even greek.

You're a legit moron if you think the UK or Japan would allow tech transfer to EITHER Turkey or India right now as BOTH Turkey and India are developing their own domestic fighter programs and they're just gonna buy a couple dozen airframes at most so they can steal the technology for their own programs.

No one is that retarded and they'll keep offering them 4th gen tech without technology transfer rights.

>>64497047
>Japan would veto it.
How can you people make such grand statements without even knowing the names of the ones involved in the project ?
Can you even tell me who Japan's current minister of foreign affairs is ?

>>64499262
It doesn't matter because it's not a decision made by a single individual, and japan as a country is never going to hand over 20+ years of technology to a nation that is actively attempting to do their own domestic competing program.

Not to mention, there is zero reason to think the current Japanese minister of foreign affairs would give a single fuck about Turkey.

GCAP already has customer nations in mind and Turkey isn't on the list.

If turks were interested in something like the F110 engine (it's obvious that high dog fighter or SC performance aren't their priority) that uses a core developed in the 1960s and upgraded during the early 1980s then Japan or England has a lot of options that will not erode the value of an ASF and will provide a good source of income. (licensing and fully localizing are completely different things, normally 'plain' licensing doesn't includes IP related to SA or machinery)
Discussing this here is an absolute waste of time and just wishful thinking.

The same could be said about SK leaving aside Hanwa and their own expertise.

The chink have proven time and again that they are nothing but an incompetent paper tiger. The Japanese, however, are historically a credible threat. Their ambition has only been suppressed, not eliminated.

>>64496772
>They're also distancing themselves from Russia and the Chicoms.
What? They just visited North Korea and signed a military deal with them. They also signed a deal to buy su-35 from Russia.
Vietnam is never going to distance themselves from Russia.

>>64499424
You'll notice I ignored replying to him entirely and replied to the other guy instead because Vietnam was such a retarded country to bring up as a prospective GCAP customer.

>>64496772
Lmao, you wouldn't happen to be a viet commienigger, wouldn't you ?
Vietnam is a fucking shothole filled with chicom and vatnig agents, more than even the likes of canada or europe (vienna is still a fsb/kgb honeypot) can ever hope to be.
Even selling something like panavia tornado to vietnam is already questionable. Not in a million years should communist vietnam ever be allowed to any cutting edge western techs

>>64499671
yeah. it's quite clear that Vietnam so called "neutrality" is a lie
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/27/world/asia/3-takeaways-from-vietnams-drift-toward-russia-and-away-from-america.html
https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/vietnam-russia-su35-fighter-deal-leak-south-china-sea/
https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3328310/vietnams-leader-heads-north-korea-first-visit-18-years-rebalance-relations

>>64495560 (OP)
>The United States is said to be concerned about the level of autonomy Japan would gain through GCAP.
I fail to see how this is a problem, we have good relationships with the japs and the more autonomy they have will only benefit us both once china inevitably gets uppity.

>>64496082
Burgeristan truly is the bipolar schizo of countries.

>>64499905
> su-35
Very poor procurement choice.
Vietnam would be lucky to even get a single flight by 2035. I expected UAC to shit the bed soon even before the war.
Might as well get Rafale, it’s not like frogs is so nitpicking about exporting to third world

>>64498178
>Switzerland
>US lapdog
Lmao.
>without the need for a deep strike bomber/air supremacy platform
I guess, but why not have it anyways?

>>64496084
you sound like those vegeta haters

>well he went supersayan blue from super sayan 2 that means he cant achieve super sayan 3

>>64496097
>a fucking concept
LMAO

>>64496394
i keep saying for decades there are so many greek scientists that work on drone projects literally around the world

if only they had a competent goverment and not one that only has the country running on tourism they would have fucking dominate the drone market by now
its amazing how a country that is literally on one of the most crucial part of this planet somehow is so incompetent at anything but their air force

>>64499424
>>64499671
>>64499721
>>64499905
Sorry guys I might just be retarded

>>64498691
>never actually in the NSA
>ignore he was literally one of the only people (out of a speculated 30 or so) with COMPLETE and total access to EVERYTHING that NSA and more agencies ever had.
You're a retard, especially when considering more than half of their IT needs were subcontracted since the 70s.

>>64496313
maybe because israel is the only one with full software access

>>64497552
I don't think you understand the situation. US wants others to spend more in defense but only give them a list of limited options what they are allowed to buy and go full sperg mode if anyone tries to develop their own arms instead.
It literally is a case of:
>We want to buy this product as it fulfills our needs
>No you can only buy this instead
>Fine we'll take our money and make the product we need on our own
>REEEEEEEE how dare you not buy from our own program!
They do this to Japan and Euros constantly. >>64497401 and >>64497510 sum up this shit quite nicely.

Honestly their whole business model has been trying to control exports while consistently treating their customers like shit and get mad when they want to go elsewhere.

>>64500448
Wrong. Isreal doesn't have access to the ENTIRE core software, they negotiated access to the MDL/MDF (Mission Data Load/Mission Data Files) creation tools/software stack, which allows Isreal to generate their own custom F-35 threat library that doesn't rely on the US to generate them. Which allows Isreal to run their own C4 (Command, Control, Communications, and Computing) systems on top of the normal F-35 software and quickly integrate new electronic warfare pods and other equipment.

Other nations get their MDLs/MDFs from the US at the PSC (partner support complex) at eglin AFB. Or from one of two other sites, the Norway Italy Reprogramming Laboratory (NIRL), or Australia/Canada/United Kingdom Reprogramming Lab (ACURL).

Isreal doesn't have access to the source code.

>>64496819
>Wrong, GCAP's purpose is to maintain or improve the aerospace industry in the partner nations.
Partner nations which happens to exclude every state that's notorious for vetoing arms transfers due to the aforementioned interests.

>>64496394
>It's kinda funny how they always bitch and moan every time Italy or France sells stuff to the turks.
France has had a de-facto arms embargo on Turkey for nearly two decades (and a formal one along with Germany since 2019) in part because of Greek and Armenian pressure. India also has influence with France since it and Greece are major customers of French arms. Armenian diaspora in France is very influential.

>>64496554
>France doesn't give a shit who they sell to, a sale is a sale, questionable or not.
See above. France only approved Meteor sales earlier this year as part of the Eurofighter Typhoon package because the other partners besides Germany told them to. Greece was still mad about it.

>>64496399
>Well lucky for them, there isn't a chance in hell turkey will be allowed to buy GCAP.
None of the GCAP partners have a problem with Turkey. The UK and Italy have growing arms partnerships with Turkey.

>>64497047
>Japan would veto it.
>The risk for leaking technology knowledge to a nation that's attempting to develop their own domestic fighter industry is too great. And realistically the UK wouldn't allow it either.
You're basing this on what exactly?
Japan has no problems with Turkey. It's also considering buying Turkish drones, which Italy and the UK already has recently.

>>64499158
You're truly delusional. The UK has actively signed half a dozen prominent arms partnerships with Turkey in recent years, including selling Eurofighter jets and buying Turkish drones.

The UK is even going to be building Turkish armored vehicles under license in the UK. Nurol Makina has already built a factory in Leamington Spa, England. Repkon is going to build an artillery factory in the UK, just as it's done in multiple other countries.

>>64496399
>Well lucky for them, there isn't a chance in hell turkey will be allowed to buy GCAP.
None of the GCAP partners have a problem with Turkey. The UK and Italy have growing arms partnerships with Turkey.

>>64497047
>Japan would veto it.
>The risk for leaking technology knowledge to a nation that's attempting to develop their own domestic fighter industry is too great. And realistically the UK wouldn't allow it either.
You're basing this on what exactly? Japan has no problems with Turkey. It's also considering buying Turkish drones, which Italy and the UK already has recently.

>>64499158
You're truly delusional. The UK has actively signed half a dozen prominent arms partnerships with Turkey in recent years, including selling Eurofighter jets and buying Turkish drones.

The UK is even going to be building Turkish armored vehicles under license in the UK. Nurol Makina has already opened a facility in Leamington Spa, England, for it. Repkon is building an artillery factory in the UK, just as it's done in multiple other countries.

>>64500511
I'm basing it on turkey begging every western engine manufacturer for technology transfer over the last decade and getting turned down repeatedly. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell GCAP is offered to turkey. No one in the defense industry (outside of turkey) sees turkey as a viable GCAP customer.

>>64496404
>>64496411
The RAN sailing Japanese ships and the RAAF flying Japanese jets in time for the anniversary of the end of the war in the Pacific would be wild.
Kind of cool, really.

>>64500511
>they sell normal arms to turkey therefore they'll sell them a brand new 6th gen fighter with the exact technology they've been wanting for decades and currently have in-progress fighter/engine development programs.

Sorry, but you're actually delusional if you think ANY of the 3 GCAP partner nations would allow it, and all 3 nations have a veto. So it doesn't matter if turkey managed to convince one or even two of the nations, and that's frankly a joke, see turkey and Rolls Royce with the KAAN program. Rolls Royce canceled the engine deal because they didn't want to give turkey LAST generation engine technology, and you think the UK is going to offer them 2025+ engine tech instead? Lol

Lmao even.

>>64500517
The ultimate 2040s Australia

F-35
Mogami-class
GCAP
B-21
SSN AUKUS

>>64495560 (OP)
Japan is pulling too far on its leash. America is not happy

People get tempted to believe that turkey can build high tech weapons on their own.
They can not. They are now buying Eurofighters, a good 4th gen, but in the 2nd half of it's useful lifespan, way late.
After a failed 5th gen program which they couldn't pull it off.
They are lacking the component access to even do a 4th gen themselves, realistically.
This would be typical fucked procurement of a smaller nation with lacking industry, was it not for Erdogan and his long rule, under such stable political circumstances one would expect a more streamlined procurement strategy.
Clearly turkey is in a perpetual bind of not being sold what they want to buy and not being able to produce it themselves.
Nobody will touch turkey as a partner. Totally out of the question.

>>64500543
Unironically, it's ultimately a good thing for America.

It gives Japan domestic fighter production capacity that can genuinely compliment the F-35s/F-22s already deployed in the region, it frees up US production capacity for their own needs (F-47 + F/A-XX + F-35 + B-21) while strengthening military, economic, industrial ties with the greater western hegemony (closer ties with the UK and Italy).

So sure, the US loses one of its levers of control it could apply against Japan, but they gain a stronger western alliance in the region and bring European powers closer to direct geopolitical opposition to China which Europe generally largely ignores due to their proximity to Russia. Which ultimately will benefit the US into the 2040s and beyond far more than making some jet sales to Japan in the short term.

>>64495629
>its the 1980s (2000s), start of a brand new decade, the field is wide open for next generation fighter sales. Time for Europe to catch up with America!
>A British-German-Italian consortium, Panavia (Eurofighter GmbH), after much toil and setbacks, has finally produced an advanced multirole combat aircraft, the Tornado (Typhoon), which meets all the partner nations' diverse requirements. Hopefully some of the cost of its convoluted development can be recouped with foreign sales
>Meanwhile, Dassault is certain that its own offering, the Mirage 2000 (Rafale) will enjoy the same export success as its predecessor the Mirage F1
>prospects are looking good for Euroboys, many countries are looking for a low cost, high performance light fighter to keep up with the latest generation of scary Miggers (Sukhois)
>Yes yes, well done, Europoors, well done. HOWEVER
>USA has just unveiled the F-16 (F-35), meant to be a less advanced, affordable export-friendly alternative to its primary air superiority fighter, the F-15 (F-22) .... but it still mogs the shit out of everything else
>the Israelis just tested it over Lebanon (Syria), no better advertising required
>oh fugg, everyone is lining up to buy it
>Belgium, Denmark and the Netherlands, which France and the consortium had been hoping to capture, are the first in NATO to place orders
>sells just as well with third world countries and proceeds to utterly dominate the market for cheap Western fighters over the next two decades .... sales which should have rightfully gone to the Tornado (Typhoon) and Mirage (Rafale)
>EuroTurkey ends up being bought only by Saudi Arabia due to UK political bullshittery, only breaks even due to initial orders by the partner countries
>Mirage does slightly better outside Europe thanks to an extensive overseas bribery campaign by Dassault, but not as good as expected
>Still better than the Viggen (Gripen) I guess.... lel

How does this keep happening? Why does this keep happening?

>>64495560 (OP)
The US, is obsessed with destroying any potential rivals that may emerge. They did their best to destroy the British Empire in the 1950s. Even after the Soviet Union collapsed in the 1990s, American authors fantasized about war with a Franco-German dominated EU or with Japan, their so-called allies.

Once China is destroyed, America is almost certain to turn on India next. We can already see them conducting the preparatory work by slandering the Poos as a Hindu-dominated anti-Muslim fascist state

>>64500561
>How does this keep happening? Why does this keep happening?

US soft power + Lockheed bribes harder
Sales on that scale have very little to do with performance of the product.

>>64500535
Meanwhile Indonesia in 2030s

Garibaldi aircraft carrier
Rafale/J-10C/KAAN/F-15EX/KF-21
Thaon di Revel PPA/Fregat Merah Putih Type 31)/Type 053H Frigate
Scorpene Evolved

and unlike Ausfalia, these will all actually be delivered on time

>>64500584
Is that supposed to impress someone?

>>64500535

F-35 can fight Malaysian and Philippines but not against Indonesia when their J10C(with AWACS) and maybe J35 arrives.

F35 are over hyped by this board. That old plane is no match for the Rafale and at most at par with Gripen or EuTyphoon. all defeated by J10c

You tell me how is the F16 able to even match the J10c. J10c has AESA GaN radar and more TR/m means it can scan longer distance than the old F16s with old radar. J10c has the PL16 range far exceed the F16 AIM120 .

So J10C will detect first the F16 fire and go home while the F16 will be jumping like monkeys in the sky to avoid the dual pulse mach 4 PL15 with AESA radar. No escape.

Even the new F35 if J10c paired with AWAC to detect stealth, J10c faster speed and longer range PL15 will prevail. No match for China's J10C and J35 combination . Chinese kill chains are years ahead of anything US/Australia has.

Indonesia is getting the J10C at a fraction of the cost .... and that alone with AWACS can destroy the F35 which is subsonic (1.6 afterburner) vs J10c mach 2.2 . That means the j10C/J35 can fly rings around the F35

AWAC can detect the F35 , J10C fires the missiles long before the F35 Aim120 can fire

>>64500595
You do know Australia doesn't have F-16s...right?

Australia has the F/A-18F, the F/A-18G, and the F-35A.

Both the F/A-18F/Gs are equipped with the AN/APG-79 AESA radar.

The F-35s are equipped with the AN/APG-81. Which is also AESA.

Finally, australia operates the E7 wedgetail AWACS platform that will outperform anything Indonesia can afford to fly.

>>64496084
France and Germany have more experience with fifth gens than the GCAP partners (UK, Italy and Japan), where none of the companies involved (BAE, Leonardo or Mitsubishi/IHI) have any experience as part of the original JSF design program or assembling F-35s locally

USA empire upset at puppets

>>64495560 (OP)
And yet Israel gets our best shit no questions asked. Evangelical politicians can not throw our best equipment at em fast enough while simultaneously pardoning and releasing israeli spies that have stolen and sold our technology and classified information. It's just so weird because trump is obsessed with fucking with china. Why wouldn't you want a stronger Japan?

>>64500595
Great bait.

>>64497401
>Japan wanted in on the F-22 program
>A US dependent ally could have helped give the program economy of scale and maybe kept the production lines open
>"LUL, fuck off."
This actually makes me fucking angry. The Raptor could have become a legit at scale successor to the F-15 if it wasnt for Neoliberal complacency and Neocon retardation with their End of History related bullshit like this.

>>64500695
Yup, Japan alone likely would've been 100-200 airframes which would've kept production line going into the mid to late 2010s at which point the US likely would've ordered another batch after Russia started shit in 2014 in Crimea. And further orders in the early 2020s with Russia getting further into Ukraine.

We could've had 400-500+ airframes by now.

>>64495629
>Euros starts to develop the EFA
First US attempt to derail Eurofighter was pressuring French to be included in the program, their brief involvement probably delayed it by few years. US interest naturally being able to sell F-15's to RAF and Luftwaffe.

>>64500695
>>64500701
Where was the production line?
I know the F-15EX line is in St. Louis, the F-35 line is in Fort Worth; where were F-22's made?

>>64500724
Marietta, production ended at the end of 2011.

>>64500724
>where were F-22's made?
Lockheed Martin facility in Marietta, Georgia
Fort Worth, Texas also produced parts for the F-22

>>64500735
>C-130 production line in Georgia is still going
What happened to the physical buildings that the F-22's were made in? Waiting for F/A-XX?

>>64500695
>pic
did they fill up the last 2 rows with F-5s to make it look like the US had more F-22s?

>>64500549
I'm a true Turkey/roach hater, but I'll have to admit that both them and France have the right mentality, even if it was forced upon the roaches.
France wants to maintain as much indipendence as they can, even at the cost of constantly being behind the curve in every aspect of military projects like we saw with the Rafale.
Meanwhile the roaches due to them constantly trying to put one foot in two shoes have destroyedd their chances of western powers transfering tech to their industry like we saw when the F-35 deal went poof. This in turn has forced the turks to develop their own stuff which, in time, will be a positive thing for their autonomy and power projection.

>>64500580
cope lmao

>>64500584
>Garibaldi aircraft carrier
Flexing with the retired leftovers of another country isn't really a good look. Especially when the italians actualy flew aircraft from the Garibaldi, while you will fly drones.

>>64500631
genuine question, what do you get from spamming the same low effort bait? You don't even get many (you)s.

>>64500584
What is this Whatsapp ass themed post
>>64500595
>>64500635
You know it's bad when a slopbot calls you a deranged nationalist LMAO

>>64500682
>>64500635
>zoomer who has to let ChatGPT think for himself is back
It's honesly pityful.

>>64500836
I'm pretty sure that Indonesians are also looking to buy remaining Italian Harriers with it. Funny because it will add another fighter to their logistics nightmare.

>>64500845
Indonesians have a remedy for their logistic; not flying their stuff. Their pilots are the ones who get the least amount of FH in all of Asia.

>>64500845
IIRC they're also buying a bunch of new helis and light attack aircraft like the mb346 which is funny both for the logistic aspect and because IIRC they already operate the FA-50.
>>64500852
you still need to buy spare parts

>>64500843
Honestly I just love getting faggot like yourself to act like it's all lies and bullshit so I can laugh at you when it all comes true in the future

The idea that it HAS to be wrong because it's AI is a hilarious logical fallacy you faggots love to get behind.

>>64500868
I don't disagree with you but you could put in an ounce of effort to non bait posts and come up with your own shit after getting the info from AI

>>64500891
That would defeat the point I have plenty of my own thought out posts in this thread already that don't use AI.

>>64500695
>>64500701
Worth noting too that if they were at scale and had more weapons integrated they may in turn have seen more sales. Supposedly at some point the idea was briefly floated that the RAAF could wrangle export clearance, but the price tag meant they could've never afforded enough to meet Australia's needs and it was a non-starter.
Didn't stop some autists from saying well into the 2010's that the RAAF should totally can the F-35 and try to buy the totally out of production and inappropriate for purpose F-22 instead.
>>64500839
There's a subset of Indonesians that are intensely triggered by the continued existence of Australia. They never got over the knowledge that the Varks back in the day could've bombed Jakarta and they couldn't have done a thing to stop it, and the ADF leading the UN action to finally tell them to fuck off from East Timor left a dent in their ego that's never recovered.
Not all of them mind you, just a certain group.

>>64500605
Good job anon, you didn't even give the indog 10 minutes to sit in self satisfaction after his post before handily blowing him the fuck out.

>>64500906
sure thing, honey

>>64500843
Before we had the ipad toddlers, now we have the AI toddlers. They probably ask their clanker girlfriends how to tie their shows in the morning lmao.

>>64495574
Why would they buy a plane that's clearly less capable? The US doesn't sell monkey models, Pyotr.

>>64501189
There is speculation trump offered japan an export model F-47 with lesser capabilities.

>>64501189
>Why would they buy a plane that's clearly less capable?
Because it's made by them, they own the technology, it helps their industry grow more capable and it has no killswitch.
>The US doesn't sell monkey models
lmao.

>>64497248
Would, the maid dress only makes it better

>>64500695
>The Raptor could have become a legit at scale successor to the F-15 if it wasnt for Neoliberal complacency and Neocon retardation with their End of History related bullshit like this.
There is so much stupidity to unpack here. To start with I don't think you know what neoliberals and neocons were/are. There is so much overlap that they are for most parts same people. Neoliberalism is all about economy, probably most influential neoliberal politicians were Reagan and Tatcher. Neocon retardation probably affected the premature death of F-22, they started wars and those wars required useful weapons that ate the procurement budget for F-22 and many other things. Shit like panic buying dozens of different MRAP's so troops don't have to patrol in Afghanistan and Iraq with humvees equipped with adhoc armor.

The problem with F-22 is that it is plane designed for retarded requirement that makes it useless as multirole fighter. It can't carry useful air to ground combat load internally.

>>64500852
>Indonesians have a remedy for their logistic; not flying their stuff
kek

>>64500861
>IIRC they're also buying a bunch of new helis and light attack aircraft like the mb346 which is funny both for the logistic aspect and because IIRC they already operate the FA-50.
They seem to be doubling down on their logistics bets. Brilliant.

Japan should just burn and kill all US bases

No more waito piggu rapists

>>64495560 (OP)
this will likely make the japs relent on the saudis joining the club, which would throw a wrench into american foreign politics since the saudis are their golden goose and not to be angered. italy chose wisely, the arabs are dumb as fuck but twice as rich, they can just piggybank the entire project themselves and will tardwrangle the US long enough to see the fighter built and exported as scheduled.

>>64501346
I agree. I am John Saito from Tokyo Oblast.

>>64501412
Johnny Kim from Tokyo Oblast

John Wong from Osaka Oblast

>>64501346
Their rape statistics, at least in Okinawa would go down dramatically. IIRC US troops account for a third of all rapes there.

>>64495634
>They should have known this ship had long sailed back when Japan denied the YF-23 with F-35 internals and full access to F-35 source code.
QRD?
it reminds me some jap shit (a VN) that covers industrial espionage...

>>64501990
He's wrong, it was the F-22 + F-35 internals.

And it was always a fantasy anyway since the USAF themselves just a year or two earlier determined it would cost "tens of billions" of dollars to restart the F-22 or an F-22 derivative using the mothballed F-22 tooling.

>>64502255
>using the mothballed F-22 tooling.

There is no mothballed F-22 tooling. This is why it would cost so much to restart production of it. Lockheed destroyed everything F-22 related to protect the F-35 program because that fighter is set up to be milked like a cow trough support contracts from the very start.

>>64502302
>There is no mothballed F-22 tooling
There is

> The F-22 tooling was mothballed, not destroyed, at the Sierra Army Depot in California to support maintenance, potential future upgrades, or the possibility of resuming production. The tooling, along with documentation and video libraries of the manufacturing process, was carefully stored to ensure the capability to support the existing fleet and potentially build more aircraft if needed

>>64501990
>>64502255
>>64502302
>>64502361
I mixed the 2. It was an F-22 w/ F-35 internals from Lockheeb and just a non-descript YF-23 modernization from N(i)G.

>>64502361
>video libraries of the manufacturing process
How did that work? Did they just stick a camera in the face of every blue-collar worker on the line?

>>64502589
> The format is described as a "series of DVDs, designed to instruct future assembly line workers on how to build parts."

More likely is that they video documented every step of the manufacturing process and have extensive technical narration or potentially written documents accompanying the video.

>>64502654
>The How It's Made narrator was kidnapped from his house in the middle of the night by a DoD team, who then forced him to read a script into a microphone.

>>64502668
Honestly though, why not?

$20,000 + an NDA and tell them they're doing a service for their country and you'll probably get them to fly out to wherever you want (if you pay for the flights/hotel). No need to do a kidnapping.