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Thread 64495933

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Anonymous No.64495933 [Report] >>64495945 >>64495957 >>64496038 >>64497079 >>64497180 >>64497767 >>64499682 >>64499732 >>64500212 >>64500848 >>64501707
Northrop-Colt 25mm Grenade Launcher
https://www.twz.com/land/new-northrop-colt-25mm-grenade-launcher-builds-on-lessons-from-failed-xm25-punisher
Anonymous No.64495943 [Report] >>64499440 >>64500212 >>64501864
Rheinmetall 40×46mm SSW40
Anonymous No.64495945 [Report] >>64495972 >>64495981 >>64496035 >>64500407 >>64500711 >>64501917
>>64495933 (OP)
>inb4 40kids chiming in with "IT'S A BOLTER" and "FOR THE EMPEROR"
Anonymous No.64495957 [Report] >>64495995 >>64496359 >>64498577 >>64500242 >>64500292 >>64501196
>>64495933 (OP)
What niche does this fill?
Anonymous No.64495968 [Report] >>64495976 >>64496060 >>64497119 >>64497336 >>64499450 >>64499974
The only lessons to be learned about the XM25 are that, if your main supplier starts clutching pearls over the legality of their product and seeks reassurances that they wont be held accountable if it actually gets interpreted to be a le-heckin-warcrime, just tell them what they want to hear so everybody can move on instead of stringing them along with vague bullshit to the point that the whole program is in deadlock. As an aside, it seems like all the PGL contestants took to heart all that hyperbole around the NGSW about how Americans will never adopt a bullpup, because they're all conventional pattern designs. Sad desu, seems inefficient for a grenade launcher specifically intended to have longer range/higher velocity than regular 40mms and be lighter the XM25 (14 lbs, so not a lot of breathing room for a semi auto GL) and will lead to frontheavy guns that suck to carry.
Anonymous No.64495972 [Report] >>64495981
>>64495945
>Look at the heckin chonk bolterino
Anonymous No.64495976 [Report]
>>64495968
Just tell them to stop clutching pearls or you'll look elsewhere
Anonymous No.64495981 [Report]
>>64495945
>>64495972
seething over 40kGODS award
Anonymous No.64495995 [Report] >>64496243
>>64495957
Tiny mortar at squad level.
Like the French squad mortar in Africa, or the IJA "knee mortar" in the Pacific.
Anonymous No.64496035 [Report] >>64496507 >>64496512 >>64497019 >>64497079 >>64497421 >>64497534 >>64498567 >>64498900 >>64499987 >>64500097 >>64500460 >>64500711 >>64502306 >>64502313
>>64495945
>40k is now le bad after Trump started meming about being God Emperor
Leftoid seethe could fuel the empire for a decade
Anonymous No.64496038 [Report]
>>64495933 (OP)
Needs purity seals on it.
Anonymous No.64496043 [Report] >>64496100 >>64497119 >>64497901
>Northrop-Colt
What kind of joint venture is that?
Anonymous No.64496060 [Report]
>>64495968
>Sell guns
>Am I going to be morally responsible for le murder?
Yeah fuckhead. 2000s HK was retarded.
Anonymous No.64496100 [Report]
>>64496043
A financially and morally bankrupt one, hopefully.
Anonymous No.64496141 [Report] >>64496148 >>64496241 >>64496512 >>64496917 >>64497119 >>64497633 >>64497643 >>64498658 >>64499382 >>64499421 >>64499808 >>64499966 >>64501262 >>64501837 >>64502092
Here's an info graph I made of the top competitors in PGS right now. I really like the SSW40 but it seemingly dosen't hit the velocity requirements
Anonymous No.64496148 [Report] >>64496228 >>64496241 >>64497643
>>64496141
I need to update this when I get home since soldiersystem put out some new articles. The MTL-30 does have airburst capability advertised and we got numbers for some more of the cartridge dimensions
Anonymous No.64496228 [Report]
>>64496148
the FN one seems nice, lightest of those that meet the velocity requirement, and 30mm is a good compromise caliber
Anonymous No.64496241 [Report] >>64501166
>>64496141
>>64496148
Awesome, thanks anon. Be sure to add these details for the MTL-30
>The medium velocity rounds produce 45 ft lbs of recoil and shoot pretty flat. With under 3 seconds time of flight to 300 meters, the max elevation for the ammunition is 11m out to 500m.
https://soldiersystems.net/2025/10/17/ausa-25-fn-multi-purpose-tactical-launcher-30mm-mtl-30/
Looks like it's below the velocity requirement.
The Barrett is starting to look nicer too. It was really ugly at first.
Anonymous No.64496243 [Report] >>64496317 >>64496359 >>64499688
>>64495995
I don't get it, what terrain? Why would it be better than a mortar, grenade launcher, or LAW? I guess airburst over a trenchline or having to put it in every window in an apartment complex, but if it's mech infantry the bradley's chaingun can knock fortified positions well enough.
Anonymous No.64496317 [Report] >>64496359 >>64497605
>>64496243
the real purpose is as an airburst anti-drone weapon for light infantry, hence the velocity requirement. Using it as a normal grenade launcher is just a bonus.
Anonymous No.64496359 [Report] >>64498153
>>64495957
Plugging everyone behind a piece of cover or a window quickly. It's a form of shoot-to-kill fire support, like a LAW but with much greater magazine depth (think 30+ bombs standard loadout).
>>64496243
Any terrain, but it's much more significant for urban environments. It's excellent for foxholes and treelines.
And you said it yourself. Light infantry, which are probably what PGS is for, benefit the most from portable fire support. The USMC's OPF-L initiative addresses a similar niche for rapid, lethal, and squad-level organic fire support.
>>64496317
5 bucks says muhdrones were just a way of scaring the brass into funding it.
Anonymous No.64496507 [Report] >>64501203
>>64496035
fuck off faggot
go worship your orangutan pedo somewhere else
Anonymous No.64496512 [Report]
>>64496141
thanks anon
id say add the neopup and xm25 reference
>>64496035
where trumpstein list tho
Anonymous No.64496917 [Report]
>>64496141
>Here's an info graph I made of the top competitors in PGS right now.
i have a prediction: the Army chooses one competitor, but asks them to redesign it for different ammunition, boondoggle ensues, project cancelled.
Anonymous No.64497019 [Report]
>>64496035
My brown friend, GayWokeshit already made 40K leftoid
Anonymous No.64497079 [Report]
>>64495933 (OP)
Will this be Colt's comeback, or will they still fuck it up?

>>64496035
I actually like 40k some, but this shit was annoying 15 years ago.
Anonymous No.64497119 [Report] >>64497336 >>64500711
>>64496043
It should really be Northrop-Grumman-Colt, they can't just forget about Grumman.

>>64495968
I'm 99% certain that H&K knew that it was bullshit but decided that they just didn't want to fucking bother with the XM25 program anymore, so they pulled that out of their ass as an excuse.

I do agree with your point on it being a bullpup though, this is the exact kind of weapon where that would make a much more important difference than for a rifle or carbine. You could make not insignificant weight and bulk savings with bullpupping these hulking killing machines.

Also, unlike the NGSW program, this program has actual promise, embiggening the grenades might be a solution.

>>64496141
Heey, good little piece of OC!
Anonymous No.64497180 [Report] >>64497301 >>64497387
>>64495933 (OP)
These mags seem stupid.
Why not a shorter magwell, with a rotary magazine? You're not going to get a ton of rounds in a mag without making it fuckhueg anyway because of their size, but something like an upscale 10rd 10/22 mag seems viable and would reduce the weapons profile.
Anonymous No.64497301 [Report] >>64497387
>>64497180
I can see your argument, but rotary magazines are more mechanically complex and thus could be more vulnerable in adverse conditions and may wear more unevenly, they would also be pretty bulky still.

A 5rd or 6rd box mag isn't small for cartridges like these, but they're flat and they'll work.
Anonymous No.64497336 [Report] >>64497362
>>64495968
>>64497119
>agree with your point on it being a bullpup though
>exact kind of weapon where that would make a much more important difference than for a rifle or carbine
me three
XM25 was kaboshed for the 'wrong' reason (and ought already be adopted rn)
Anonymous No.64497362 [Report] >>64497408
>>64497336
They felt the XM25 wasn't reliable enough and not quite powerful enough, wasn't that it?
Anonymous No.64497372 [Report]
I thought one of the biggest conclusions was 25mm is too small and 30mm is the sweet spot
Anonymous No.64497387 [Report] >>64497435
>>64497180
>>64497301
Yeah, the magazines are for follow-up shots. It's also why autoloading is a requirement.
Anonymous No.64497408 [Report] >>64497435 >>64497519 >>64499054 >>64502130
>>64497362
Depending on where you read, there were 'multiple reasons'. Army cites weight, bulk, and cost (in the OP article). System was field evaluated by Rangers in Afghanistan 2013, after which budget cuts occurred
as mentioned upthread there was also the issue of humanitarian compliance (when brought up this is often "debunked" as 'no, that wasn't the reason')
Army also supposedly cited the doctrinal role of the system itself, saying that removing a soldier's requirement to carry the launcher in lieu of a primary M4 infantry rifle makes the soldier "unable to perform required tasks" and "reduces capacity to engage targets"
Taken together it's all (from a procurement and doctrine p.o.v.) nonsensical. Especially with this re-animated 2025 edition
Anonymous No.64497421 [Report] >>64497461 >>64497534 >>64497940 >>64498272 >>64502320
>>64496035
No, its bad because Leftists hijacked the IP and turned it into yet another "modern politics" reimagining.
Naturally the moment leftists gained control they wanted to start appealing to children because they are pedophiles.
Anonymous No.64497435 [Report] >>64497455 >>64499700
>>64497387
I mean to say that if it weren't for the follow-up short requirement, the guns would have been manually loaded with rounds carried loose like 40mm, because that's the lightest and least bulky way.
>>64497408
I was so fucking pissed when they killed it. Then I moved on to cheering for LSAT and they fucking killed it too and for even worse reasons. Words cannot describe how much I hate Big Army.
Anonymous No.64497455 [Report]
>>64497435
>when they killed it
I don't follow this kind of stuff too closely (especially in the post-1980s era) but yes, of the more recent battlefield arms tech being cancelled it seemed a real eyebrow-raiser given how much had been invested in the concept since the 1990s beginning with the 20 mm version

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM29_OICW
Anonymous No.64497461 [Report]
>>64497421
>40k being turned into wokeslop
Thank god. This terrible cringefest of a franchise, built almost exclusively of stolen IP, has been lining the pockets of GreedWorkshop for far too long.
I can't wait to watch it all burn.
Anonymous No.64497497 [Report] >>64497573 >>64497605
# 64497408
From the doctrine point of view, I don't understand why the Army (and also USMC) can't just have a designated squad XM25 gunner like they already do an IAR or SAW gunner
(if ? they were supposedly so concerned about a soldier "unable to performe required tasks" because he's carrying the launcher instead of an M4)
Anonymous No.64497519 [Report] >>64497532 >>64497605
>>64497408
>Army also supposedly cited the doctrinal role of the system itself, saying that removing a soldier's requirement to carry the launcher in lieu of a primary M4 infantry rifle makes the soldier "unable to perform required tasks" and "reduces capacity to engage targets"
I believe that this came from complaints by some people, but not everyone. Some people liked the thing quite a lot, others didn't find it that good and thought they would have been better off if the guy had carried a rifle instead.
Anonymous No.64497532 [Report] >>64497555 >>64497571
>>64497519
Right, that's my impression got from reading a lot of that stuff. 'Some people's' opinions gained precedence and authority over others. Never mind the opinions (of troops/commanders in field tests operating and carrying the system), what about the doctrine? See post immediately above (You)rs.
Anyway the whole procurement-adoption decisions around the system seemed arbitrary.
Why develop such a weapon when everybody already knows damned well from the outset that it's going to be replacing an infantryman's own rifle, due to it being similar size? (And then, after spending all the money-time to develop and field it end up saying: "Well, it's going to impede the soldier's ability to carry his rifle." Wtf?)
All of the "it replaces his rifle" / "unable to perform (other combat) tasks" excuses seem to be along the lines of "why not just use an M203 attached to rifle" or "use an M320 instead," each of which are just as logically inconsistent: Why bother developing a new grenade launcher system/weapon *at all*, then?
None of it makes any sense.
Anonymous No.64497534 [Report]
>>64496035
>>64497421
>push god emperor trump memes to make the left seethe
>make 40k wokeslop to make the right seethe
Malal is pleased
Anonymous No.64497555 [Report] >>64497571 >>64497573
>>64497532
I can understand the replaces a rifle complaint because what is he going to do during a prolonged fire fight? Sit around and wait for a relevant target to use it?
Anonymous No.64497571 [Report] >>64497591
>>64497532
The reason is incompetence and corruption. I've read technical reports (granted, old ones) where they straight up lie/seriously misunderstand what's going on. I think procurement is actually a lot like corrupt lawyering, the adoption of a certain product hinges on who you send to present it most of the time.
>>64497555
His presence shortens most firefights, and when it doesn't, the platoon only loses 2 guns. It's not a big deal.
Anonymous No.64497573 [Report]
>>64497555
checked, well (You) explain the doctrine, or *reason for even developing* a dedicated grenade launcher weapon then.

See, read: ------------- >>64497497

>fire fight
Isn't that what a grenade launcher with programmable-homing projectiles is intended for? To give covering fire (beyond or complementary to e.g. a SAW or IAR automatic small arm) advantage to a small unit or squad?

>targeting
since the first 1990s 20 mm versions the intention of the new system was to have its ammunition rounds be programmable for airburst, to hit targets dug in or under/behind cover.
(isn't that what typically happens in a 'fire fight', at least some of the adversary is dug in/behind cover...?)
Anonymous No.64497577 [Report]
make one guy carry two rifles and 12 mags. jeez, how stupid are generals?
Anonymous No.64497591 [Report]
>>64497571
>His presence shortens most firefights
That's what I thought the whole point of the weapon, system and technology was

>platoon loses only 2 guns
See post above about doctrine.
The weapon is a 'new classification' for Army infantry doctrine purposes, from the 1990s (the earliest 20 mm versions) forward. This I guess is where the incompetence and bureaucratic inertia comes in... but when the MIC is throwing millions $$$$ at the system over a decades-long period then no one is actually paying attention anyway, to the reason they supposedly "want" it in the first place? idk
Anonymous No.64497605 [Report] >>64497631 >>64499117
>>64496317
On the money. Airburst 25mm grenades is basically the scaled up version of what Russia and Ukraine is doing, 3D printing 5.45 and 5.56 sabots that hold ratshot, so they can shoot down drones in cases where you can't get shotguns out to platoons.

Does drone takedown way better than what can be achieved with shotguns, while doubling as mobile smoke and IDF system.

We'll probably see a slight restructure of the squad element, where you have 6 rifleman, 2 crew served, 1 squad leader, 1 medic, 1 RTO, and 1 dedicated grenadier. You'll have guys still carrying 320's, but one guy will be rocking this specifically, probably with an M4 as backup, if not, an M17.

We MIGHT see the anti personel munitions from the XM25 make a come back but probably not. Those grenades were so fucking expensive, more than the cost of the XM25. And once it got out of the hands of the 101st, and HK fumbled the ball, a whole lotta minds were turned off.

>>64497519
HK's manufacturing inconsistencies was the problem. Grenades are fucking scarry.
>HURR FUKIN PUSSY
Everybody thinks that until you're holding one in your hand, and one little fucky wucky on how you twist the pin smokes your ass. A whole fucking magazine of grenades is even worse.

>>64497497
The M27 is a workaround for replacing the M4 for the Marines, ding dong. The Marines have long since transitioned to being an amphibious force, and they wanted something that would handle water better than the M4. Which is why HK made special modifications to the 416 specifically for the M27, mainly dealing with water drainage after the gun has been completely submerged.
Anonymous No.64497631 [Report]
>>64497605
>textwall 'muh marines'
Idgaf. Only mentioned it because of the loose analogy between (the Army's) SAW and the USMC recently-adopted M27 IAR: **these are squad-level full auto suppressive fire small arms**. A general dedicated role in which the XM25 grenade launcher (<--not a rifle-cartridge arm) could also ? have a parallel role: Covering suppressive fire, to shorten fire fights/engagements for a small unit. But it needs a dedicated infantryman to carry-deploy it, just as the SAW (Army) and IAR (usmc) requires.
Take your hairsplitting textwall kvetch and keep it on boomerbook or plebbit
Anonymous No.64497633 [Report] >>64497746
>>64496141
Barrett or Rheinmetall should win the contract (ideally Barrett)
FN is a okay fallback

But we live in the worst timeline so Colt/N-G will get the contract with the cope being that they are a trusted legacy contractor
In reality they will just have bribed the right generals to get there trash contracted

The will be produced in limited numbers hated by end users and quietly shelved
The generals and Colt/N-G execs will go out for dinner at Benihana and use burning 100 dollar bills as matches to light cigars
Anonymous No.64497643 [Report]
>>64496141
>>64496148
thanks anon, helpful
Anonymous No.64497746 [Report]
>>64497633
>outcome
Probably precisely this
Anonymous No.64497767 [Report] >>64497771 >>64497824
>>64495933 (OP)
What if the grenades are autonomous mini drones
Anonymous No.64497771 [Report] >>64497824
>>64497767
This is what it's all converging towards
(back in the '90s and the original 20 mm variant, it was not technologically feasible)
Anonymous No.64497824 [Report] >>64497832
>>64497767
>>64497771
That's an ATGM. Those cost enough to pay for a significant fraction of the monthly rent of a New York apartment, so they're trying to find something cheaper that infantry can use for window cleaning instead.
Anonymous No.64497832 [Report] >>64497930 >>64497931
>>64497824
>ATGM
the drones only have to be anti-personnel
tiny in size/mass
Anonymous No.64497901 [Report] >>64500308
>>64496043
Sounds like something from Crimson Skies. I like it.
Anonymous No.64497930 [Report]
>>64497832
Yeah but the expensive part isn't the size and payload, it's the sensors, electronics, and guidance machinery.
Anonymous No.64497931 [Report]
>>64497832
Too small and it can't pierce closed civilian barriers like windows/doors. Plus if you're investing in the datalink and thermal camera, you might as well buy a warhead big enough to be trustworthy.
Anonymous No.64497940 [Report]
>>64497421
pls go back to your cave Matt Ward
Anonymous No.64498153 [Report] >>64498251
>>64496359
>Light infantry, which are probably what PGS is for, benefit the most from portable fire support
>The USMC's OPF-L initiative addresses a similar niche for rapid, lethal, and squad-level organic fire support
Yeah but in canceling prior grenade launcher programs (as discussed ^^^upthread) they claimed that one of the main reasons was the infantryman was "unable to perform other (rifle-oriented combat) tasks?
In other words is this PGS for real, this time? Or they're not going to lie, this time?

So are U.S. Army (and/or Marines) going to be consistent and say 'yes, this weapon will replace the infantryman's rifle and his role (like the SAW / IAR gunner) will be dedicated specifically to it' ?
In other words, doctrinally, there's going to be in the platoon-squad command structure a new PGS gunner MOS, analagous to a SAW / IAR gunner

The anon's Infographic posted above says
>PGS has not had a formal prrogram of record established
>'Envisioned' as a soldier's primary weapon

This is all just more "envisioning"?
FFS, since the beginning in 1990s it was obvious that this launcher *would* be an infantryman's dedicated main weapon. (It's not a 'sidearm' or 'optional weapon') Anyone with a functioning brain can see/comprehend that

This is what we were discussion upthread about the MIC / mil procurement authority b.s., grift and lies
Anonymous No.64498251 [Report] >>64498387
>>64498153
https://xtech.army.mil/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/2023-xTechSoldier-Lethality-RFI_FINAL.pdf

It's actually "anticipated", and I really dunno what you're shitting yourself over there's been about 4 million dollars total spent on this program with the two PPON contracts. The US army at one point had a grenadier that had the M79 as his primary weapon, thing can change over time and it's not unfathomable to have a squad member operate a very lethal direct fire weapon in lieu of his rifle.
Anonymous No.64498272 [Report]
>>64497421
Don't all these kids get murdered by an awakening Necron tombworld by the end of this book?
Anonymous No.64498387 [Report] >>64498532
>>64498251
>"shitting yourself"
idgaf. Read my post (You) replied to, it's about the _doctrine_ based on the prior cancellation of XM25 "can't have the rifleman give up his rifle" pseudo-rationale

>picrel
>muh grenadier
We already know what the PGS *as a weapon* is and does, just as we knew back in the 1990s what the XM29 was and XM25 in 2000s was. We know what it is.
The question is: Army doctrine going to create a *new MOS* for Grenade Gunner? (analogous to SAW gunner / IAR gunner)
Yes / No
Anonymous No.64498408 [Report]
I love how thick and round grenade rifles look and that's the only reason I hope they get adopted
Anonymous No.64498532 [Report] >>64498555
>>64498387
Probably not? You'd just get cross trained. The weapon is pretty simple. The Army dosen't have special squad role MOSs.
Anonymous No.64498555 [Report]
>>64498532
Whatever (You) want to call it.
In an Army squad, someone gets "designated" or trained as a SAW gunner
That's my point. Define / categorize it how you want, the grenade gunner would be an additional 'training' or category to the already-existing SAW gunner personnel

Why do we care? Because in 2018 when the Army canceled the XM25, they claimed a prime reason was because "we're not having the rifleman give up his rifle"
Anonymous No.64498567 [Report]
>>64496035
>he doesn't know warzigger is monke kings favorite game
Anonymous No.64498577 [Report] >>64498602
>>64495957
Defeating defilade and cover without having to call a fire mission or air support
Anonymous No.64498602 [Report]
>>64498577
checked
Anonymous No.64498658 [Report] >>64498789 >>64498828
>>64496141
I hope we go with Rheinmetall, it looks like its from aliens
Anonymous No.64498789 [Report]
>>64498658
I'm surprised at how it's lighter than all of the rest, I figure it's because 40mm MV is relatively low pressure so the barrel and bolt can be very light
Anonymous No.64498828 [Report] >>64498892
>>64498658
It also has a tip-up barrel so you can load the first round directly into the chamber and skip racking the action. Much like a XXXL version of early 20th century pocket pistol, which is cool as fuck.
Anonymous No.64498892 [Report] >>64500391
>>64498828
isnt that supposed to primarily be for longer rounds?
Anonymous No.64498900 [Report]
>>64496035
40k got associated with alt right groypers / vatniks, so now everyone laughs at 40k and considers it brown and Indian. Sorry glavset.
Anonymous No.64499054 [Report] >>64499960
>>64497408
There was also some kind of near-fatal accident with an xm25 on a range somewhere in the sandbox if I recall correctly.
Like, an accident that happened due to ammunition malfunction, and because the chamber is so close to the body, was extremely grievous.

I think that might be part of the reason there's no bullpups in the current batch of contenders, I think they might have specifically put the kabosh on that from the start.
I don't know if whatever happened would have been prevented with a conventional layout but with the nature of the projectiles in question it's a possibility.
Anonymous No.64499117 [Report] >>64499458
>>64497605
>The M27 is a workaround for replacing the M4 for the Marines
Yes.

>The Marines have long since transitioned to being an amphibious force
Not to the extent that you seem to think.

>and they wanted something that would handle water better than the M4
If this is a stated reason you've read somewhere, it's very retarded, because I can promise you that only a fraction of people in the Marine Core actually do amphibious anything, and those that do don't frequently tend to be in the position where they need the gun to be readied half a second faster. Navy Seals would be those who do amphibious shit the most, and they frequently have other reasons to choose other weapons for that anyway.

>Which is why HK made special modifications to the 416 specifically for the M27, mainly dealing with water drainage after the gun has been completely submerged
Except that you wouldn't really need to do anything further to the 416 on that point. You can drill out a small drain hole in the bottom of the buffertube on a regular AR15 to make water drain out faster, if that's something you really need doing.
The 416's piston doesn't necessitate that, and the thing is so violently overgassed that I don't see why it would need anything further done to deal with water, I'm confident that it can plow through whatever effects there are from that.
Anonymous No.64499166 [Report]
fucking kraut space magic
Anonymous No.64499382 [Report] >>64499412
>>64496141
Didn't Barrett already win?
Anonymous No.64499412 [Report]
>>64499382
No Barret won a development contract and so did FN I think
Most recently the Colt offering also got a development contract

The news keeps framing them getting development contracts as being selected fully but its just funding to continue developing the prototypes
Anonymous No.64499421 [Report]
>>64496141
They should've gone for the HAMMR.
>Accepts pre-existing ammunition
>Lighter than everyone else
>Break-action for loading micro-missiles and shit
>Can use special-issue 40mm rounds for airbursting
It just werks.
Anonymous No.64499440 [Report] >>64500212
>>64495943
...yeah, that magazine needs to be shrunk down.
Anonymous No.64499450 [Report] >>64499675
>>64495968
XM25 didn't fail because of any dumb "it's a warcrime" memes. It failed because 25mm has shit lethality.
Anonymous No.64499458 [Report] >>64501538
>>64499117
The Marines explicitly announced the transition back in 2010, and with Force Design 2030, they've dropped the Abrams entirely, and have been recently spinning their wheels trying to adopt truly amphibious IFVs that don't suck ass.

The writing is on the wall what war they're preparing for, and that being Army 2.0 fucked them in the ass when they're supposed to be the amphibious expeditionary force of the Military. 82nd clears the way, the Marines take the beach.

When you're fighting in and around the equator, humidity, rain, tangible moisture is a massive, very real problem. Im not talking about photoshoots of guys crawling out of rivers, monsoon season hits in certain places of the world and it doesn't stop raining for weeks on end. Its not about being overgased, its that the impingment gas system on the M4 REALLY doesn't like water, while the external piston on the M27 keeps functioning.

Considering the numbers the Marines are fielding the M27, and the fact that they were set to outfit all 4 of their infantry divisions with M27s before Biden and Congress slashed their budget, why else would they adopt the M27? They barely had the money to begin with, and for what? An extra inch of barrel in a rifle less accurate than a bog standard M4 they could have easily free floated to achieve even better accuracy?
Anonymous No.64499595 [Report] >>64499642
>Barrett weighs 40% more than the Rheinmetall
But why...
Anonymous No.64499642 [Report]
>>64499595
Chambered in a much hotter high velocity round, plus it has a heavy optic mounted.
Anonymous No.64499675 [Report]
>>64499450
>It failed because 25mm has shit lethality.
Source?
Anonymous No.64499682 [Report] >>64499709
>>64495933 (OP)
companies try to push this shit every decade or so and it never works out. turns out individual dismounted men aren't supposed to be and don't want to engage BMPs
Anonymous No.64499688 [Report]
>>64496243
it's not and again companies try to push this every few years not realizing that the average muhreen doesn't want to carry 20kg of explosives "just in case" when guided artillery is on call 24/7 anyway
Anonymous No.64499700 [Report] >>64500295
>>64497435
> I was so fucking pissed when they killed it. Then I moved on to cheering for LSAT and they fucking killed it too and for even worse reasons.
Don’t worry anon. They made a 13lb battle rifle and cut combat ammo loads by 33%. It’ll be great this time.
Anonymous No.64499709 [Report] >>64499778
>>64499682
It had never once been pitched as an anti-armor weapon.
Anonymous No.64499732 [Report]
>>64495933 (OP)
Is the payload comparable to an RPG-7 HEAT warhead? Is this just basically a western RPG team?
Anonymous No.64499778 [Report] >>64499943 >>64499955 >>64501567
>>64499709
my point stands that it's pointless when real life is not cowadoody and guided artillery is on standby any time you want to say "I really wish that man had no cover"

as an addendum, when you can't call guided artillery on it 99.9% of the time ROE would probably dictate you can't saturate it in grenade fire either
Anonymous No.64499808 [Report] >>64499815 >>64501655
>>64496141
That's real cool but do you think we could mount a really small assault rifle or maybe a PDW on the bottom so the guy carrying it can shoot at enemies too? Like some kind of...Individual Combat Weapon.
Anonymous No.64499815 [Report] >>64499818 >>64501655 >>64501843
>>64499808
if even canada gave up on it it's time to let go
Anonymous No.64499818 [Report] >>64501843
>>64499815
Is that a gun designed for women?
Anonymous No.64499943 [Report] >>64499947 >>64501567
>>64499778
with the advent of ugv and drones, this type of weapons might find good use. you can't exactly call artillery, or waste your anti tank missile on a small robot
https://www.forbes.com/sites/vikrammittal/2025/10/12/russia-and-ukraine-deploy-unmanned-ground-vehicles-into-kill-zones/
Anonymous No.64499947 [Report] >>64499994
>>64499943
>you can't exactly call artillery, or waste your anti tank missile on a small robot
Unlike ukraine, we have a larger tax base. Let the taxpayer worry about it.
Anonymous No.64499955 [Report] >>64499964
>>64499778
What a retard take.
>real life is not cowadoody
which is precisely why its so valuable to end firefights promptly, because fire support takes minutes to arrive even when pre-ranged and hiding behind a rock until your health recharges isn't a real thing.
Anonymous No.64499960 [Report] >>64500007
>>64499054
https://web.archive.org/web/20130709022726/http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20130305/NEWS/303050330/Army-removes-XM25-from-service-after-incident
>A soldier was injured during a Feb. 2 live-fire training event during which the primer of a 25mm high-explosive air burst round ignited as a result of a double feed, according to Army spokesman Matthew Bourke.
>Although the primer and propellant were initiated, safety mechanisms prevented the round's warhead from detonating. The gun was inoperable after the explosion.
>"The gunner training on the weapon system received superficial injuries," said Bourke. "The gunner was medically evaluated and returned to duty."
Anonymous No.64499964 [Report]
>>64499955
>which is precisely why its so valuable to end firefights promptly,
Fire mission, danger close
Anonymous No.64499966 [Report]
>>64496141
>actual effortpost
Based
Anonymous No.64499974 [Report]
>>64495968
>muh heckin warcrime
What fucking warcrime? Grenades aren't fucking bullets!
Anonymous No.64499987 [Report]
>>64496035
Fuck off retard, this has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with you faggots being the scifi/military fiction equivalent of MLP pedos.
Even still, 40k got hijacked by woketoid retards so it's far from a right wing issue.
Anonymous No.64499994 [Report]
>>64499947
well, these also work much better than the shotgun as a hard kill last resort drone countermeasure
Anonymous No.64500007 [Report]
>>64499960
Ah, I guess it wasn't nearly as bad as I remembered.
It might have been the one in Korea that kaboomed and nearly killed someone, which was a Daewoo K11 bullpup, not sure.
Anonymous No.64500097 [Report]
>>64496035
Every fag who likes 40k and acts like this deserve the rope. Too bad they would probably break either the rope or whatever they are strung up from.
Anonymous No.64500212 [Report] >>64500225 >>64500295
>>64495933 (OP)
>>64495943
Damn that's really cool!

Let's build a million of them that looks like an AR-15 instead

>>64499440
Would you rather have 6 or 9 rounds in your grenade rifle? Because I'll take the extra vertical bulk if it means my gun doesn't go click when a retard pops his head out during a firefight and nobody else sees him in time, as should you. Bulk only really matters if it is on the sides or in the front/back. Nobody really cares about top-bottom bulk since your body is already built parallel to it
Anonymous No.64500225 [Report] >>64500253 >>64500369
>>64500212
This anon has never shot prone in his life.
Probably rings his life-alert so the orderlies can come scoop him up every time he falls out of his mobility scooter, desu
Anonymous No.64500242 [Report] >>64501848
>>64495957
Imagine being able to mortar or FPV the enemy but aren't required to set anything up for 10+ minutes or sit still in the same spot so you get killed or surrounded. It's heavy firepower but with much better chance of hitting something and with a thousand times better mobility. This thing would kick ass in trench and urban warfare. Especially if you shoot airbursts over the walls, at the bare minimum concussing the living fuck out of anyone trying to inch toward you.

You can also magdump it into hidey holes from far away so Russians can't easily magdump you through the other side through a blanket, a scummy tactic they always love using in close range engagements
Anonymous No.64500253 [Report] >>64500304 >>64500338
>>64500225
>lying down prone in a trench/hallway
Oh no! A not a thing that will never happen and has never happened in combat in a million years! What ever will they do!

Nobody lies prone. That's how you get a explosive thrown at your face while you scramble up panicking like a retard because you believed CoD was real life. No mobility=death, especially in post 2022 warfare. This isn't afghanistan where you are on the side of a tall mountain trying to make a smaller silhouette for the taliban
Anonymous No.64500292 [Report]
>>64495957
The one that is already covered by fpv
Anonymous No.64500295 [Report]
>>64499700
Fucking hell. I'm so excited for PGS, but there's a 95% chance it's going to be raped like so many other promising programs. Fuck the Army.
>>64500212
Short magazines are better for PGS in most situations.
>less bulky, so it doesn't snag and you can go prone
>less weight on the weapon
>allows for more ammo variety, and easier to change ammo types
PGS isn't for suppression, it's very much shoot-to-kill. Doctrinally, think of it like a LAW/RPG-7/AT4 shrunken down for magazine depth and given a counter-defilade fuze to make the smaller warhead useful. The magazine is really only there for follow-up shots.

>Let's build a million of them that looks like an AR-15 instead
The Barrett/MARS SRSS will look very different for its actual deployment.
Anonymous No.64500304 [Report]
>>64500253
>Mobility is death
>Why yes, I would like a magazine that weighs twice as much and makes my gun half a foot taller
>No, I don't want to be able to bend down or lay flat on my stomach on account of my fuck huge magazine pouches
Anonymous No.64500308 [Report]
>>64497901
Concur, it looks badass as all hell
Anonymous No.64500338 [Report]
>>64500253
There's a lot of combat that doesn't involve urban environs or trenches
Anonymous No.64500369 [Report]
>>64500225
Just hold the gun sideways.
Anonymous No.64500391 [Report]
>>64498892
Yeah, but it's also promoted as a feature to quickly and easily +1 load the gun.
Loading that way means that the operator basically never has to manually cycle the action, provided that there are no malfunctions.
Anonymous No.64500407 [Report]
>>64495945
No one mentioned Boltguns besides you. While it obviously has several comparisons to them you are the one bringing it up and you then spammed a bunch of 40k hate shit in a thread that hadn't even mentioned it all.

Idiot, you don't even know 40K lore. It needs to be at minimum a .75 Gyrojet that fires from the equivalent of 20 GA shotgun brass, not counting the actual projectile which should be DP/Frag at a minimum. Highly impractical but fun.
Anonymous No.64500460 [Report]
>>64496035
40kids we're already insufferable before GW shat the bed to sell you more shitty plastic and paint. Stop being beholden to a megcorp
Anonymous No.64500711 [Report] >>64501188
>>64495945
And (you) had to be first one to ruin this thread. We can't have discussions about grenade launchers without 40kids ruining 'em.
>>64496035
Fuck off to /tg/ to discuss 40k, nigger. This isn't occasional off topic discussion anymore, but majority threads about certain weapons being derailed.
>>64497119
>they can't just forget about Grumman.
They should at this point.
Anonymous No.64500848 [Report] >>64501575
>>64495933 (OP)
>the new grenade launcher from Northrop Grumman is 11-and-a-half-pounds

So it weighs as much as a sack of a dozen hand or rifle grenades. That would do the job without the burden and cost of this launcher.
Anonymous No.64500850 [Report] >>64502092
>25mm
Meme. They worked out long ago you go 40mm or go home.
Anonymous No.64501166 [Report]
>>64496241
The Barrett/MARS has a muzzle velocity of 203 m/s or 666 fps (Janes). Assuming "under 3 seconds" is 2.5 seconds to 300 meters, the FN likely only manages about 120 m/s or 390 fps. The Barrett will have a much flatter trajectory and better range. The XM25 had a V0 of 690 fps.
I'm rooting for the Barrett. 390 fps for the FN is the same as 40mm MV. Might as well get the SSW40 or make an airburst M320 at this point.
Anonymous No.64501188 [Report]
>>64500711
>They should at this point.
The fact that grumman made all those little fuckers that are still out there trundling along delivering mail and packages when the last one rolled off the assembly line THIRTY YEARS AGO should be more reason to remember them, not less.
Anonymous No.64501196 [Report]
>>64495957
The niche that they tried to clumsily fill by buying the XM7.
Anonymous No.64501203 [Report]
>>64496507
My dude, this is the weapons board... Did you assume you were surrounded by Redditors and le based heckin leftyrinos?
Anonymous No.64501262 [Report]
>>64496141
The MTL30 looks the most like a finished product, the SRSS and PGS look like some weird investor scam shit.
The SSW40 looks cool as FUCK but like some early prototype.

None of these seem ready for the field.
Good post though.
Anonymous No.64501538 [Report]
>>64499458
>its that the impingment gas system on the M4 REALLY doesn't like water
This is literally only a problem when you submerge the entire rifle in water and fire it when it's still full of water, this is NEVER going to be an issue with air humidity, rain, or even fucking monsoon weather, and if you do dunk your entire rifle in water somehow, it takes a single second to drain enough to be safe, less if you have the drain hole in your buffer tube.
Anonymous No.64501567 [Report] >>64501578
>>64499778
It's not for deleting cover, it is for negating it by sending airburst rounds into structures and over trenches at 2-300 meters.
>>64499943
Does seem it would be nice for drones if they offer rounds with VT fuses.
Anonymous No.64501575 [Report] >>64502092
>>64500848
Rifle grenades don't have the same range and flat trajectory, hand grenades do not have even a fraction of the same range or trajectory, and it's a comical comparison to make. Nor for that matter the precision.
The entire point is a grenade launcher which you can aim and fire basically like a rifle, yes, the 25mm and 30mm grenades are smaller than 40mm grenades, so you get a less powerful payload per shot (and why the 20mm shells in the OICW were abandoned), but it's also an easy weapon to doubletap with to make up the difference.

You do have the Rheinmetall launcher which IS 40mm, for both the low velocity 40x46mm and medium velocity 40x51mm. This is a VERY promising weapon in its own right for a number of reasons, in part for being able to single load extra long 40mm shells like certain flares, or the Raytheon Pike, even with a magazine of other grenades at the ready, but even the medium velocity grenades have appreciable air time and a parabolic trajectory, so this weapon isn't exactly fitting smoothly into the goals of the program.
Actual high velocity 40x53mm grenades have been tried in handheld weapons before in the EX-41, but the recoil is brutal as hell, Reed Knight described it as "being punched in the face with every single shot," which is a big reason that weapon wasn't developed much further, along with the weight and bulk of the system. There's no easy solution on this point.
Anonymous No.64501578 [Report]
>>64501567
Airburst 25mm and 30mm grenades might be an ok solution for larger drones (as in, the ones that still fly relatively low to the ground, like you see in Ukraine).
Anonymous No.64501633 [Report] >>64501874
>DUDE DRONES
>this will totally work for drones bro! just like double-barrel shotguns
>nigga this ain't shit! gibsme an FPV
>skeet shooting should be taught at basic!

please... stop...
Anonymous No.64501655 [Report]
>>64499808
>>64499815
I remember the very first concept drawings of the OICW I saw in stuff like Popular Mechanics had an MP-7 as the underbarrel gun instead of a G36.
Anonymous No.64501707 [Report] >>64501874 >>64502280
>>64495933 (OP)
I think the automatic/small payload concept isn't a great idea. 25mm grenades just aren't that effective.
A single shot bolt action 40mm high velocity concept would be a better idea IMO.
>similar weight
>higher velocity
>much greater explosive payload
Not everything has to be automatic, you have to make big design comprises for that.
Anonymous No.64501837 [Report]
>>64496141
>Hammar
>9 pounds firing 40mm MV
Hammer is right. Is there some enhanced recoil reduction system?
Anonymous No.64501843 [Report]
>>64499815
>>64499818
They only put that on there because it is so much fun people were overusing it.
Anonymous No.64501848 [Report]
>>64500242
>heavy
Even standard 40 doesn't pack much pop.
Anonymous No.64501864 [Report] >>64501872
>>64495943
That's a big mag
Anonymous No.64501872 [Report]
>>64501864
Four rounds.
Anonymous No.64501874 [Report] >>64502291
>>64501633
I feel you, anon.
>we're totally gonna shoot down drones with 30mm MV grenades from handheld launchers
With what targeting system? Are you going to mount a portable radar to an already american-consoomer-tier overweight weapon to figure out the proper time delay? Or put proximity fuzes into grenades that are already shrunken down to borderline uselessness due to magazine feeding and velocity concerns? How are grunts supposed to target an object the size of a helmet flying and maneuvering at ~50-100kph with this heckin' chonker of a gun? At what effective distance? Because safety fuze standoff is gonna be at least 30m, and the detection distance for a 10" FPV flying straight at you is ~200m - if you're in an open field. At best, the grunt is gonna have around 10 seconds to figure out the direction of attack, visually detect the incoming drone, range it and fire, and pray that the first shot disables it, because he'll need to re-range for the second and by that time, the drone's gonna bonk him on the head with half a kilo of TNT.

As an political play to appropriate another couple hundred million $ on a re-run of an already twice-failed program, "muh drones" is very period-correct and fashionable. As a doctrinal, tactical and technical reason to arm a grunt with a semi-auto mini-grenade laucher, it's retarded.

>>64501707
A pump-action would be even better, you can keep the magazine feed and even incorporate Rheinmetall's swing-out barrel (to the side maybe) for extra compatibility with existing special 40mm loads.
Anonymous No.64501917 [Report] >>64502076
>>64495945
Remember anons, Bongs invented 40K because they can't have guns and their women are disgusting.
Anonymous No.64502076 [Report] >>64502091 >>64502155
>>64501917
>40k gets hijacked by vatniks
>immediately gets countered and everyone mocks 40k
>crying about bongs begins
Pottery
Anonymous No.64502091 [Report]
>>64502076
I don't know what you're talking about. I've never played 40K, looks like some fag shit, everyone knows that brits are fags.

Also, slava ukraine, I guess.
Anonymous No.64502092 [Report]
>>64500850

See >>64501575
given the advancements in guidance+explosive charge miniaturization, the original HK/Alliant 25 mm concept seems optimal. As does the XM25's bullpup configuration.
(but here we are again with OP >>64496141 gigagrift-procurement debacle, decades later)
Anonymous No.64502130 [Report] >>64502780
>>64497408
My understanding is that the Rangers hated it because they were doing no-knock raids on urban homes and compounds in the middle of the night. The XM-25 brought nothing to the table for them, and replaced M-4s. Line troops who were running OPs and COPs, on the other hand, loved it. So, it was a mission/doctrine issue, and really shouldn't have been issued to the Rangers in the first place unless they were doing a more traditional commando raid that required the extra firepower.
Anonymous No.64502155 [Report] >>64502296 >>64502349
>>64502076
40K was always gay and cringe.
The entire ALL GRIMDARK ALL THE TIME, and NO FEMOIDS ALLOWED-shit that 40k consisted of was always retarded and violently homosexual.
Anonymous No.64502280 [Report]
>>64501707
I'd sort of agree, but part of the idea with these weapons is ease of making corrective shots.
Anonymous No.64502291 [Report] >>64502885
>>64501874
>How are grunts supposed to target an object the size of a helmet flying and maneuvering at ~50-100kph with this heckin' chonker of a gun?
I think they're talking about the larger drones, those which people put stuff like multiple RPG18s and stuff on.

>A pump-action would be even better
Fuck that. If it's gonna be all manual, either make it a revolver launcher, or make it as American as possible with a lever action.
Anonymous No.64502296 [Report]
>>64502155
It's also godless. AFAIK the whole story is based on
>and there are no forces of good in the universe
>its all evil and there's no salvation... because... IT JUST IS THAT WAY OK CHUD
Anonymous No.64502306 [Report] >>64502318
>>64496035
Epstein list status?
Anonymous No.64502313 [Report]
>>64496035
If I needed confirmation that everything that I've ever expected about 40k fanboys being retarded faggots was true, this was it.
Anonymous No.64502318 [Report]
>>64502306
Being not cared about.
Anonymous No.64502320 [Report]
>>64497421
>because they are pedophiles
Uhhhhh Epstein files? I'll take it if Bill Clinton is in there too. I just want pedophiles brought to justice, unlike you, I care about pedophilia regardless of party affiliation
Anonymous No.64502349 [Report] >>64502470
>>64502155
>The entire ALL GRIMDARK ALL THE TIME, and NO FEMOIDS ALLOWED-shit that 40k consisted of
That's a new thing. 40k used to be a goofy setting, see Orks, the old Cadbury Egg squats, and these things.
Anonymous No.64502470 [Report] >>64502616
>>64502349
>That's a new thing
Nigger, please. Back when it was new and they were throwing all kinds of loony shit at the wall to see what would stick, 40k had chaos dwarves, hair-metal chaos marines, demon-worshiping biker gangs, hyper-intelligent space orangutans, lame-ass hobbits, etc.
All of that was slowly retconned out of the lore, or buried deep where only the biggest of 'sperg nerds would find it, and replaced with endless grimdark garbage to pander to the non-self aware edgelord crowd, who'd eat that shit up and spend all their money on wildly overpriced plastic miniatures and awful homoromance novels.
And when that wasn't profitable enough, GW invented a whole new pointless faction exclusively to pander to the weebs.
The last vestiges of wacky fun that ones made the franchise entertaining to any degree are now exclusively contained within the orc (No, fuck you GW, I won't abide with your trademark name buillshit) faction, which trash for completely other reasons.

40k is a bad franchise built on stolen IP, and peaked decades ago. It has slowly been rotting from within since then, with GW's blatant greed only becoming more terrible.
Playing or liking 40k is fine as long as you're using old-ass pirated books from the 80s or early 90s, and you're making your own models or buying unlicensed 3rd party shit.
But playing modern 40k, or paying money for any kind of 40k shit, and having a single penny of that money making it back to GW constitutes inexcusable and terminal faggotry.
Anonymous No.64502497 [Report] >>64502885
showing up late and the thread is kinda gay but what does this do that a milkor doesn't? caveat: i've not used 40mm grenades but i can imagine a situation where maybe you need them to come out faster than a single shot launcher, but do you really need to carry magazines instead of loose rounds?
Anonymous No.64502616 [Report]
>>64502470
Reminder to US anons: PSA 11.5" AR is a better investment (and a better use of plastic) than 40K figurines.
Anonymous No.64502780 [Report]
>>64502130
>mission/doctrine issue
Yeah I understand what you are saying (testing regime early 2010s when U.S. Army was engaged in a specific tactical theatre) and maybe ? that contributed to some of those at-the-time-and-location Ranger reports, but no-knock CQB room clearing isn't the entire mission profile of either Rangers or U.S. Army infantry overall. (Idk why the Rangers alone solely themselves would have been issued/testing a brand new experimental grenade launcher either... unless it was intentional to skew the Army's own field test report/results in a certain direction)
Anyway the point is that, somehow the Army/Pentagon brass/MIC wanted to deliberately kabosh the XM25 by 'administrative decision authority' and they got their desired result.
Seems to me was a worthwhile system that not only could have been properly field tested and further effectively developed but also on line as a full U.S. combat arm a decade ago.
And see post immediately above (You)rs
Anonymous No.64502885 [Report]
>>64502291
>the larger drones
The larger 10"-12" FPVs are still a smaller-than-man-size target maneuvering at close to highway car speeds in the air. The next size group would be the heavy 6-8 rotor cargo copters carrying huge cameras, multi-shell drop setups or resupply packages. That would be a valid target... if it strayed into engagement range, where it becomes just as vulnerable to automatic rifle fire as it is to (theoretical) MV time-\sensor-fuzed grenades. But it's still a threat when it's way out beyond engagement range, because it's carrying a sensor package that enables high-precision fires on a fireteam\squad sized element that can't do shit to it in return. All in all, pretty narrow window of usefulness for a weapons system this complex and involved.

But then again, XM25 had already proved the validity of "infantry grenadier" concept way before small drones were a thing. Making PGS about drones is just a way for program owners to hop onto the latest R&D spending bandwagon.

>>64502497
High(er)-pressure and velocity, programmable rounds and the sighting\sensor integration to enable them.
Depending on the setup of the rounds, it may not be TOO complex to retrofit the drum with programming interface, but unlike the hi-lo UBGL shells that MGL is made for, MV grenades would develop serious chamber pressures, and then you're into making a proper revolver cylinder instead of a flimsy plastic drum, sealing it against the barrel to eliminate blowby... and you end up with a huge, overweight monstrosity that has none of MGL's benefits.
Rheinmetall SSW-40 just does it better: it's built from the ground up for semi-auto firing of MV shells, and then adds backwards-compatibility with old LV 40*46 inventory, as a treat.