>She's just doing it to be ironic
>She's just doing it for attention from men
>There's nothing sexual about this at all
>It's just subtle political commentary
>It's just mocking how men find this erotic
>It's just commentary on the male gaze.
>It's men who insist on making this sexual
>despite what it may look like, thisnis nothing like TRUE AGP. >She isn't crossdressing (or male)

Women can't be AGP because.... because... because it messes up our narrative okay??

>>40044889 (OP)
cope harder agp-chan
go goon somewhere else

>>40044906

Who's the one coping here exactly?

>>40044889 (OP)
who cares? who the fuck listening to this anyways ? who the fuck even knows who this is?

>>40044889 (OP)
> Women can't be AGP because.... because...
because AGP is a male’s propensity to be aroused at the thought of being a woman. Hope this helps.

>>40044889 (OP)
That's not agp.

>>40044920
Pretty sure a lot of people know who Sabrina Carpenter is

>>40044920

I listen to it because I like pop music by female artists in general... idk it's called being fembrained???

>>40044921
nothing in the term "autogynephilia" precludes women from having it. it means you're arouse by thought of yourself as a woman. which cis women are obviously culturally conditioned to be aroused by. hope this helps

>>40044938
ok me too but listen to good ones

>>40044889 (OP)
Why do people care about this so much? When did gen z get so puritanical

Naturally being able to have tits and wanting to be pretty isnt agp retard

>>40044941
this fact triggers the autogynephile.

>>40044941
Type it into Google and let me know what the definition is. Good luck

>>40044990
>>40044996
>muh heckin prescriptivity

>>40044990
>>40044996
>using google to define words for you as an argument
literal middle-school tier. you're not even using a fucking dictionary to make your definitional argument. bye bye, children

>>40044968

Theres music i listen to because it's good and music i listen to because I like to save pictures of the artist and think about how a woman like that would never even look at me

>>40045019
no its a description of some male exclusive phenomenon behavior that exists
and its very accurate

>>40044968
She’s so dogshit why can’t people just say she sucks instead of making up retarded moral controversies. It’s not like musicians stopped making good music either like I don’t understand

>>40045019
>confuses descriptivity for prescriptivity cuz labels are oppressive or something
Many such cases

>>40044889 (OP)
How exactly is being a submissive dishrag to men the desire to see oneself as a woman o woke algo Jesus?

>>40045027
>I have no rebuttal
I'll take your concession.

>>40045027
>nooooo you have to find a source that confirms my bias nooooo

>>40045035
her attempt at social commentary isn’t even very profound or interesting anyway. she’s prolly a nepo baby industry plant

>>40044996
>>40044921

So what do you call a woman being aroussed by wearing sexy clothes and doing seemingly degrading hyperfeminine things, assuming the woman involved enjoys it and get aroused, independently of any other rationale such as profit or "it's halloween?"

Because my assumption is that you're going to fight me on that and say "women never get aroused by doing normal woman things you disgusting AGP pervert"

>>40044921
bc the one who invented the term agp said its like this, despite making no sense at all. Agp is a real phenomenon, but it can happen with any gynephile, not only tgirls.

Psychology is a fucked up science bc most people who try to study it always choose one relevant author of any theme and becomes their bitch who will defend them in any way possible.

idk how it is in other places, but where i live it is kind of a problem in the academy, bc theyre just recycling the same material from the same authors that died decades ago

im not saying blanchard is inherently wrong but you all should start criticizing him, he was one of the first ones who started to deeply study transgenderism

>>40045036
>>40045033

>something made up with an extremely limited data set by an old straight guy in the 1980s and NEVER REVISED REPRODUCED OR UPDATED is not only accurate but it can NEVER be changed or revised!

You pseudointellectual hons disgust me. I assume you still think atoms resemble pudding with raisins in it.

>>40045089
She’s not having a cross sex fantasy.

>>40045065
>>40045077
there is no point to rebut. a definition is *defined* as something discrete from an argument

>>40045089
>what if my cat likes playing fetch
That's what you're asking.
That's a category error.

>>40045106
true, stop using term agp then and just call it cross sex fantasy for men and women

oh no, the identity politic ideology isn't logically cohesive!

>>40045095
> it can happen with any gynephile, not only tgirls.
Only male gynephiles
> you all should start criticizing him
For what exactly?

>>40045119
it even has kinda pedophilic acronym - CSA

>>40045036
You are using it in a prescriptive way
If we used a descriptive definition, we would've acknowledged agp also happens to females because its basically the same behavior

>>40045135
You're missing the point that females aren't having a cross sex fantasy because they're already female dumbshit

>>40045095
My primary criticism of Blanchard is that he (understandably) never foresaw a future where transexuality could be a youth subculture niche constructed through social connectivity hive programs beamed to screens on an ubiquitous transhumanist sensory organ that fits in people’s hands

>>40045041

I don't know. I have a feeling I can't describe when I weaR sexy clothes and participate in mildly degrading cheeky activities and i don't think science yet has a satisfactory explanation. So i am discussing it with my peers, the trannies of /tttt/

>>40044889 (OP)
Being a slut isn't AGP you retard.
AGP is arousal at the idea of being female, not arousal at the idea of being dominated by a man.
If anything she's being HSTS.

>>40045105
>old
He wasn’t old in the 80s. Even then who cares? Are you ageist?
>straight
Ray Blanchard is gay
>guy
Nice misandry. Anne Lawrence is a trans woman who also studied AGP.
>1980s
So?
>NEVER REPRODUCED
Very false, just do a cursory search on Google for peer reviews and subsequent studies. Everything you’re saying is all the common AGP cope

>>40045027
>using established definitions of words is bad
Lmao

>>40045192
prescriptivism really is an IQ limit, isn't it?

>>40045135
Women are getting turned on at the thought of being desired by a man as a woman (which they already are). AGPs are turned on by desiring their own self as female, which they are not. These are not even close to the same thing.

>>40044889 (OP)
i don't listen to her but i find all the pearl clutching over this to be deeply ironic and very funny
>women can do and say what they want
>wait not like that!

Its a campy charactature of like a 1950s woman which is her entire persona.
All her fans are gay men and women. Also pop artists don’t do anything publicly for their own sexual enjoyment this is all to max money.

But afab woman can be AGP

>>40045203
Idk what that word means anon. Should I look it up? Nta

Threadly reminder Blanchard came up with the term autogynephilia and has been very clear about the question of whether natal females experience it (they don't), so if you disagree with him you should use your own terminology instead of trying to alter the meaning of his.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLN38t_eOjk&t=1400s

>>40045233
They don’t know what it means either, which is why they keep misusing it

>>40045240
daddy.....

>>40045203
if you need a new word make a new fucking word
I think "auto-gynephelia" is a little clunky myself. I prefer "happy whore"

>>40044889 (OP)
I don't even know who this is or why we're seeing 1980s boomers

>>40045116

Right but I'm not asking if a cat plays fetch i' asking about women being aroused by their own female body and/or being perceived as female and/or being sexualized in a way that some onlookers might perceive as degrading. Why must you keep dodging the point?

Is this a thing that happens or is it not? Is it AGP or is it something else?

>>40045233
no, you should infer the meaning from context, like human beings used to do. you fucking troglodyte

>>40045240
and the artist's interpretation of their work is the correct one? the question was rhetorical, you don't have to prove me right so quickly

>>40045284
it's agp but to admit that makes the whole concept of agp fall apart so that's why they get so mad

>>40045284
See
>>40045216

>>40045145

Women can experience/be subject to emasculation or feminization to whatever extent they can act masculine/androgynous or be perceived as masculine or androgynous. This is known and written about. It's part and parcel of female sexuality and sexualization of women.

>>40045286
It isn't subjective artwork. It's an objectively defined research term.

>>40044889 (OP)
The thing that depresses me about this is that young girls see it … :(

>>40045286
> no, you should infer the meaning from context, like human beings used to do
It seems like it means a philosophy that holds established canon as absolute redlines that cannot be further discussed, given your conversation with that anon. But it’s probably broader than than, as the root word prescriptive doesn’t exactly jive with the meaning the context clues has led me to interpret,
which is swhy I asked

>>40045301
bro just stop arguing and say you don’t get it, this is embarrassing

>>40045304
yes, and, to mengele, "the jew" was also an "objectively defined research term"

>>40045327
>AGP is like nazism
lmao funniest AGP cope yet

The whole point of Blanchard's thesis is that men who are hetero (female-attracted) get their aroudal wires crossed and start being attracted to a fantasy of themselves being female.

This is distinct from females who submissively attracted to men because of fembrain.

>>40045284
I'm not. You're missing the point. The female isn't having a cross sex fantasy
You're also equivocating that agp ==degrading.

That's not the case. You dont even know what agp is.

>>40045185

I am pretty sure Ray Blanchard is married to a woman... and isn't gay. The AI you like to use for support comes backwash no publicly available information.

This leads me to think that everything else your saying is more lies and misdirection i.e. "look over there!"

Also the fact that something was studied in the 80s when trans medecine was primitive and virtually unknown is extremely significant because it tries to construct a typology ina n environment where many more trans people will be repressed, no access to legal or social gender change, and much less passing.

Basically his patients pretty much socially had a gun to their head to contextualize their desire to be a woman as a fetish at least for somsignifigant portion of their lives.

>>40045216

What if a bisexual (or lesbian) woman found herself attractive though? In addition to arousal about having sex with men?

I mean a person can participate in a threesome and be attracted to two partners of different genders, can't they?

>>40045338
the absolute lack of reading comprehension. anyone can say any category means anything. blanchtard is scheler's "explanatory psychologist": he forces his subjects to fit his categories, not the other way around ("psychology of understanding")

>>40045226

>afab women can't be AGP

Side question but why is this side of the argument dogmatic and absolution as if the idea of questioning or broadening AGP is scary to them and undermines their world view?

>>40045343
>females who submissively attracted to men because of fembrain
And if there's people born male that like men then they're HSTS? That makes sense

>welcome to being a tranny here's blanchard's thesis please fill out these boxes

>>40045384
agp deniers are like literal flat earth npcs holy shit

>>40045240

Science isn't a creative enterprise anon. It's supposed to be publicly shared, discussed, built upon, and repressed at will in the name of experimentation and development.

Trying to guard research like a kid with a sand castle just means you're not doing real research.

>>40045399
the concept of descriptivism, with continual reference to this fucking thread

>>40045387
>why dont atheists believe in god? Don't they know they'll go to hell?

>>40045308

And this is what underpins the strict definition of AGP folks. Social conservatism, the gender binary, and morality policing others.

>>40045320

Who doesn't get what here, exactly?

>>40045374
You’re still not getting that this is a cross sex fantasy. It’s so, so obvious that’s what you’re not understanding. Why can’t you get this?

>>40045424
You haven’t even demonstrated that you understand the original definition. AGP denialism is all one big cope.

>>40045350

>you don't even know what AGP is

AGP/MEF is a subcategory experienced by many heterosexual trans women and probably cis as well. This is different from the "lesbian" and autosexual trad AGP but the root feeling is (probably?) The same

And also I can assure you that I'm smart, have a lot of sexual experience and know a lot about what all these tranny things are. Do (you)?

>>40045439
>the word "faggot" means "bundle of sticks," it's not a slur! here, look at this definition some old retard who collects sticks wrote

>>40045457
> also I can assure you that I'm smart
Lmfao

>>40045390
>And if there's people born male that like men then they're HSTS? That makes sense
Are you being ironic?

Homosexual Transsexual is the term for males who are into males and seek transition

>>40045467
>category error
>again

>>40045467
False equivalence. Crazy mental gymnastics going on here damn

>>40044920
>who the fuck even knows who this is?
Buddy, this chick ended up being what kicked off the federal investigation into Eric Adams. If she were not such a thot, his dealings might not have been uncovered.

>>40045480
All gay males are "HSTS" but dont troon out because 90% of them can't pass

>>40045500
agps cant pass and they transition

>>40045487
>>40045490
go tell black people to stop calling each other "nigga." i really don't know how many other ways i can put this so you two can understand it

>>40045512
yes exactly. now you get it!
agps transition regardless if they pass or not. they actually want to be female

hsts just want to fit in.

>>40045419

I'm an atheist but I'd be an absolute fool if I told you I understand how the universe works, or otherwise ignore the limits of my own knowledge snd understanding.

>>40045401
Anyone's welcome to prove him wrong. But disputing his claim isn't the same thing as taking a word he coined and using it to mean something completely different from how he defined it.
That would be like going around saying iguanas are a kind of black hole because you disagree with Laplace on what the term black hole should refer to.

>>40045525
>agps transition regardless if they pass or not
reporting in to confirm

>>40045533
the term "black hole" refers to my fucking sphincter, and Laplace can blow my girldick. how many more times

>>40045551
>the term "black hole" refers to my fucking sphincter
Not even light can escape your asshole? Are you single?

>>40045453

I understand the original definition fine, you have to be male to have AGP. However, I question whether that's really the case.

>>40045439

It just doesn't seem so simple and categorical to me. I feel i experience AGP but there's nothing "cross sex" about the feeling, i have dysphoria about male sex characteristics. I feel aroused by feminine characteristics, and attire, and sometimes social roles or sexual behaviors or the like. But the idea of not medically transitioning and crossdressing and being in a relationship with a woman and using my penis for sex is utterly repulsive.

So i have experimental data that causes me to doubt that the traditional definition of AGP is accurate.

>>40045533

Now THAT argument is a false equivalence.

>>40045569
Nothing you’ve described is incompatible with having AGP

>>40045569
Are you male?

>>40045525
I don't know who you are. I was explaining the difference between AGPs and female sexuality that OP is confused about. HSTS is irrelevant here.

>>40045609

I'm trans, mostly heterosexual, getting srs in 4 months.

>>40045631
So AGP, got it. Yea this whole thread makes sense now.

>>40045424
I wasnt even saying anything about AGP in my post. I was saying that it’s sad when young girls (afab or amab) see adult women depicted as animals or in such objectifying positions. Because likely these children viewing this are also watching their parents relationship be governed by old patriarchal rules and it just is gonna fuck them up mentally and give them a bad idea of what it means to be a adult and a woman. It’s sad because young girls will emulate sabrina and be submissive to young men who will (probably) treat them horribly because everyone’s brain is poisoned with violent misogynistic porn. But that’s just the plight of straight young women these days

>>40045597

people in this thread seem to implying that AGP requires as a predicate

>having/maintaining a male identity
>aroused by cross sex nature of the fantasy
>no dysphoria/detachment from primary sex characteristics, (i.e.penis and physical masculinity is a feature of the fantasy, not a bug or an obstacle)

>>40045648

What exactly makes sense to you anon?

>>40045648
as if your motivations weren't equally bald. what a sanctimonious, canting slug you are. friendless, i have no doubt

>agp is when a woman expressed sexuality

>>40045686
>said no one ever

>>40045686
Some trannies seem to want to redefine AGP as that so they can say they're just normal women instead of natal males on estrogen with a paraphilia.

>>40045662
>>having/maintaining a male identity
That would be wrong. What is required is the physical state of being male, an XY small gamete adult human. Identity has nothing to do with it.

>>40045681
Wrong! I’m actually super popular and very hot and smart too!

lets at least acknowledge we all agree that foids are categorically ace

>>40045725
wrong. they're walletsexual

>>40045735
kek finally i can soothe my self esteem issues

>>40045724
i almost pity you. almost. i try to be kind to worms but, you, i would step on

>>40045752
Cringe reply

>>40045029
Your post is honestly the most interesting in this thread. Which artists fall into the latter category for you? Ariana, Marina, Lana, Lorde, Demi Lovato, Gaga, Sabrina, Hailee Steinfeld, Halsey, Rihanna, Kim Petras, Nikki Minaj, Beyonce, Doja Cat, Julia Michaels, and/or Selena Gomez? Do you also like thinking about how the women you listen to wouldn't date you or just the saving their pictures part? What about it drives you to listen to music think so little of yourself? Self-pity or hatred? A desire for femdom?

>>40044889 (OP)
>Women can't be AGP because.... because... because it messes up our narrative okay??
a woman being aroused by being a submissive woman is not the same as a man being aroused by being a submissive woman

>>40045725
I think i have most similar to hsts sexuality as a straight cis afab. The visualized thought of a hard or c*mming penis is probably the pinnacle of arousal for me ^_^

>>40045785
>as a straight cis afab
there are no women on the internet silly
dismissed

>>40045718

You're saying a meta-textual fetish involving contemporary symbols connected to gender expression is dependant on chromosomes? That seems counter intuitive.

>>40045822
as a male, you just wouldn't get it.

>>40045822
> dependant on chromosomes
Insofar as the gendered symbols you’re permitted to initially embody are largely dependent on your natal sex, yes. This is the structure of the cross sex fantasy.

>>40045839

>rigid categorical thinking
>transphobic
>ad hominem/ you're stupid!
>spiteful, argumentative, appeals to the lowest common denominator.

I see you're one of those people. You're the complete opposite of a clinical deliberative autist like me.

>>40045785

Agreed. When I'm focused on cock all thoughts about my body /gender take a backseat.

>>40044976
Sexual promiscuity is a boomer vice that caused AIDS.

>>40045980
>>rigid categorical thinking
cope
>>transphobic
there's nothing I said that was transphobic. you can't just label everything you disagree with as bigoted

also you're God Emporer Ray Blanchard supports your transition. good luck with the srs im happy for you.

>>ad hominem/ you're stupid!
i literally dont know how else to explain it to you like the other people already have.
I get it. You want agp to be redefined as female sexuality in order to fulfill your agp paraphilia. that would be the apex of your agp desires.

>>spiteful, argumentative, appeals to the lowest common denominator
projection.

>>40044889 (OP)
AGP is a disorder where men are attracted to themselves as women, or (here's the important part) PLAYING THE ROLE OF A WOMAN.
Women cannot have AGP.

>>40044889 (OP)
No matter what its always going to feel like prison sex if its not biological boy/girl.

>>40045777

so i mainly listen to kpop these days since there's more i like but of those:

>artists i actually like:
Ariana, gaga, Halsey, Rihanna, Kim petras, Beyonce, doja cat, lorde, dual Lipa, (should have been on there as well as some others i think)

>like for MEF

Sabrina, Selena gomez, demi Lovato, Kim petras

>indifferent
Nikki minaj, don't know the rest.

To answer your questions:
(1) I feel agp/mef when listening to the music and looking at pictures of the artist
(2) nothing drives me to it, I've listened to feminine pop music and felt emasculated by it since my mom played Madonna for me at age 5
(3) there is no self pity per se, I am very happy and relieved to feel emasculated, it is pleasurable, like scratching an itch or popping a zit.
(4) there is some sensation of being dominated, cucked, enslaved, or castrated by beautiful women. It produces a thrill, makes me want to dance.
(5) generally i feel lust for the male body triggered by the female form. i would say the only self hatred comes from feeling sexually attracted to the women. But that would be a stretch. Mostly it's a positive, affirming feeling of being feminized or made harmless.

>>40046195
what is prison sex

>>40046019

First off it's *your and second off... I'm the one who doesn't thing AGP is scientifically valid here. But that's a nice crash out maybe I'll finish reading later. Try to keep the emotions in check please. There's no reason to be so keyed up about this. And yes you were being highly transphobic, literally misgendering me as an arguing tactic stop gaslighting.

>>40044889 (OP)
An afab can never be agp because she cannot understand the pleasure of breaking free from amab socialization.

>>40046268
Thanks. I take your concession.

>>40046298
I take yours, "something can be only if x because it just is, okay?" anon

>>40046352
take your pills, Alice.

>>40046298

I think even you have to admit that's petty. The fact that you're this opinionated and dedicated about this and invested in the the subject is noted. Thanks for coming.

>>40046400
>make thread about topic
>nah im not reading anything
based

>>40046084

I believe i asked this earlier but what if a woman was bisexual (or lesbian) and was attracted to herself as a woman? (As in, she's objectively attractive in her own opinion?)

What about the "mirror on the ceiling" fetish? (Referenced in the lady gaga song)

>>40046430

I'm multi tasking but i will read and respond later. I rarely let comments go unanswered.

>>40046441
It was also answered earlier. She’s still not having a cross sex fantasy. Being a lesbian doesn’t suddenly make her male.

>>40046613

But all she has to do is imagine being a man and fucking herself, right? It satisfies the cross sex element and the autogynephilic element, It also doesn't seem that far fetched in the context of "fetishism" (which is a loaded term but used here to denote atypical fantasies), esp if she's bi with a preference for men. I remember seeing on a diagram that "meta AGP" had been coined as a term to describe transbian attraction, is this that?

>>40046676
Is your question “what if she imagined herself as a guy attracted to herself and was also attracted to that guy she imagines is attracted to herself”?

>>40046718
In the hypo the fantasy is focused on her arousal and enjoyment of heterosexual sex, she prefers men so imagines being the pov of a man fucking her. But the man is an afterthought in the fantasy, just a generic "hot" guy, no arousal or tho7ghts about possessing male sex characreristics just marionetting a male meat puppet at best.

>>40044889 (OP)
Transphobes don't have legitimate or sincere beliefs or viewpoints, they have fear and hatred born from the evil in their hearts. To anyone who cries "agp" at a trans woman experiencing normal female sexuality, they deem it fundamentally okay for this cis woman to make something like this, but fundamentally wrong for a trans woman to do the exact same thing. they don't have reasons, they have hollow rationalizations.

you are completely correct OP. your only mistake was offering these animals your valuable time...

>>40046846
>everyone who disagrees with me is a transphobic animal
Did r/MTF/ get banned or something? Why are you even here?

>>40046900
To write as anonymous you smarmy fuck.

AGPs have these thoughts because of memes originating from here. It's polluted their thinking because they've always been filterless spergs that take in everything they see. They're simpletons through and through.

>>40044921
Case in point, trans men with AGP exist aplenty. And AAP trans women are HSTS
It's wanting to be what you're attracted to, regardless of your genitals.

>>40047016
>the men who transition to women to sleep with men are actually fantasizing about being men
Words don’t mean anything anymore it seems

>>40046846

I tend to split the difference. Perscriptivism, rigid thinking, appeals to traditional, ad hominem attacks are wrong, but debate is useful. AGP probably doesn't make sense as a taxonomic category, but it can have independent descriptive validity or be a useful term. It really just depends on how you think about things. Binary thinking is usually suspect, but comparative analysis, and using better models, like the original "kinsey scale" for intance can cure most obvious problems with that. Plus I kind of like being mocked, bullied, and aggressively contradicted.

>>40046900

Yes but the inverse is also true, if you're holding on to stereotypes and received cultural knowledge and you're squeamish about approaching taboos through a neutral dis interested lens you fall into the exact same trap, "I'm right, everything else is bad/wrong/deviant"

>>40044889 (OP)
>huge public ally
>community immediately starts roasting the fuck out of her when LGBTpuritans decide she stepped one inch out of line
>even though this is the tamest most standard BDSM stuff possible
>and might additionally also be an ironic joke, there's literally no way of knowing yet since the album hasn't been released
Good job continuing to be our own worst enemies, boys! Keep up the firing rate!

>>40045240
The whole problem is that Blanchard, in his desire to categorize all not-exclusively-adrophilic trans women as AGP had to stretch his definition of AGP so large as to deliberate conflate large swathes of behaviour that would be considered entirely normal for cis women and pathologize it when trans women do it.

Fundamentally, Blanchard deliberately conflates erotic desire of the self at the idea of one's self as a woman with wanting to be desired BY OTHERS for one's feminine qualities.

The former is typically seen in late transitioning trans women prior to and in early early stages of transition (or indefinitely in the hondosed) because they still have testosterone dominant libidos, whereas Blanchard's on clinical experiences point to extended HRT at appropriate dosages mostly causing the AGP tendencies of those trans women yo eventually go away.

>>40047291

What LGBT people have taken an issue with this? You're trying to create a problem that isn't even there. Mainstream feminists are mad at her, not trans people.

>>40045149
stupid

>>40047074
>if you're holding on to stereotypes and received cultural knowledge and you're squeamish about approaching taboos through a neutral dis interested lens you fall into the exact same trap
Weird projection. You’re the one motivated throughout by a discomfort with your own AGP and an aversion to even understanding the concept such that you’re contorting yourself into these absurd pomo queer theory knots to reframe it as something it’s not.

>>40048683

I don't know where you get that idea. I LOVE being AGP and i like sabrina carpenter generally. i long since stopped caring about fetishes or being seen as valid by anons because no one here knows each other. Saying projection is just writing 'no u' with more letters so I won't bother dealing with that.

You haven't done anything but personally attack me and others in this conversation and your only contribution is "cis women can't be agp because cis women can't be agp." Not everything is about hating and stigmatizing some imaginary group. Having any value judgments going into this particular discussion and being heated is very strange, we're not discussing murder or the israel Palestine conflict here.

>>40044889 (OP)
>female celeb puppet is used as a puppet to sway media
Shocker

>>40044889 (OP)
the whole thing is just kind of cringe honestly. like oh you're sexually submissive to a man as woman that's sooooo crazy