intersex thread

whats up, fags

>>40094903 (OP)
what if being trans is a kind of neurological intersex condition?

>>40096776
shut uuuuuppppppp

gay men and lesbians are both intersex

>>40096781
what's wrong? all the evidence supports the notion

>>40096789
unironically maybe true

>>40096776
It's possible but as a general rule, trans has their space and intersex has their own. They often line up but in recent years it seems that people only care about intersex variations as a magic bullet against anti transgender ideology and I fear that it will erase and or set back the very minor progress that's been made on intersex awareness and body autonomy. I'd like them to continue being seperate...

>>40096821
so you have no material reasoning for your insistence against the idea except fear of rhetoric?
that's very helpful to understand, thank you

>>40096776
>>40096828
Intersex isn't a scientific classification. It's an umbrella term for a variety of medical conditions and trannies just want the social validation from inserting themselves into yet another group

>>40096857
the overlap between intersex & trannies is very high i'm an intersex tranny

what you're mad at are the faketrans hons that are obviously their agab in every way and who don't respect anything for anything doing that

>>40096828
I have pais and I have first hand experience at the erasure or even utter lack of understanding that I exist and therefore I must be trans. It makes light of my medical condition, and transgender people have been basically it treating it like it's an assumed identity for as long as I can remember to justify their feelings.

>>40096857
This. I just want a space with people like me, I can talk to.

>>40096879
You are being dumb. The person with the flag I was replying to is not intersex in any way but wants people to consider gender dysphoria an intersex condition because it would make them feel better

>>40094903 (OP)
Thoughts on KFfags?

>>40096892
weird how what I described has nothing to do with your projection of your personal experience but is rooted entirely in fear-based speculation about rhetoric!

>>40096857
>It's an umbrella term for a variety of medical conditions
what, specifically, makes being transgender not one of them?
>trannies just want the social validation

>>40096912
i don't think i'm being dumb and i also think it's obviously closed minded to say trannies that don't have a recognized diagnosed intersex condition aren't intersex

i agree with them on the basis that i think idk 70%? of self claimed trannies are obviously faketrans and that most of the rest do clearly have some physical and neurological divergences

>>40096967
>aren't intersex
samefagging to say rather: cannot or COULDN'T possibly be intersex. obviously they are not intersex by the current standards but there is so little attention and research into intersex conditions to begin with.

>>40096776
i don't think i'm intersex but sometimes when arguing w cisoids abt reasonable biological classification of myself i use the term "pseudo-intersex". i don't think having gender dysphoria is an intersex condition, but the cumulative effects of transition are similar. it's a compromise between "trannies are men" and "trannies are women" that is easier to back up.

>>40096967
>i think idk 70%? of self claimed trannies are obviously faketrans and that most of the rest do clearly have some physical and neurological divergences
and I think that's dumb because it goes off of vibes and personality traits more than anything, unlike intersex conditions rooted in the body. It's not like trannies get their brains scanned to confirm they arent faketrans, its pure vibes so you will call me close-minded while inventing this distinction based on nothing

>>40096995
>i don't think having gender dysphoria is an intersex condition
why not? even before we take hormones, our brains are detectably different from cisoids

>>40097005
>>40097005
saying trannies are only measurably different based on vibes is obviously disingenuous lol. for example i have female digit ratio and it's also very common among androphilic trannies and slightly common among gay men. inverse is true for lesbians and ftms. there are obviously mental differences that are pretty observable. then you have ppl like dr powers noticing pretty consistent physiological trend archetypes in his patients, not only in their phenotypes but also how they react to different kinds of medication and what their levels are like.

>>40097038
okay I have the female digit ratio meme too, doesn't mean I'm intersex even tho I'm transitioned, and there are cis men who might have it too. This is just laughable

>>40097038
i thought digit ratio only tracked sexual attraction not gender identity.
t. index much longer, HSTS

>>40097070
certified faketranny

>>40097061
i mean i'm actually intersex but i'm just giving it as an example. acting like our bodies are totally binary and the ONLY people that are intersex in any way are recognized as such is closedminded...when basically everyone that is intersex knows very well how nonvisible and researched their conditions are. it's just a defense mechanism from them in the same way that lesbos put down bis for not meeting golden star criteria or whatever just because it's het norms that attracted to woman = only has had sex with women

>>40097070
yes - but that's not the point i'm making either. the reason that's relevant is because it's an example of bodies bleeding dimorphism in a way that is explicitly being caused by natural hormonal irregularity. it isn't widely agreed upon how 'major' something has to be to be an intersex condition is to begin with and acting as if we understand the human body well enough and that people care enough to have a full understanding of what is and isn't intersex is hubris

>>40097133
>i'm actually intersex
as opposed to fake intersex (gender dysphoric) lol

I do get what you are saying, that we don't know most things about the body, but the way it works out in practice is completely unnuanced. Trannies will argue that they are intersex based on being gender dysphoric and the rest is vibes, determining who is and isn't faketrans always is about looks and personality in the end. I'm AGP but I could stealth as trutrans because I'm a luckshit. Then some autistic gigahon who may be more dysphoric than me by a mile would be stigmatized as faketrans. i know how tranny social dynamics work.

>>40097209
well i'm both 'real' and 'fake' by that classification but yeah lol

people acting as if faketransness vs trutransness is totally arbitrary are kidding themselves a bit. i'm not saying we will find the tranny gene but it's very obvious to me that transness is innate in the same way that sexuality is, because sexuality correlates with sex in a way that is beyond social norms seemingly in large part due to how sexual differentiation or lack thereof tends to occur in the womb. and yeah, sexuality and paraphilia can be influenced by socialization but it seems extremely unlikely that transness isn't innate.

then you sum up the unbelievable correlation if transness has nothing to do with intersexuality at all categorically with the amount of people with meaningful intersex or hormonal conditions that troon out and it seems to me that the division is at least partially there because we simply don't know anything.

it's also worth noting that GD is something experienced pretty widely by cis people in some minor capacity. cis related gd is also still gd - if a normal guy gets his dick blown off he always drinks himself to death pretty much. the transness of people who actually troon out, get hrt srs etc is clearly something beyond just gd outside the strongest cases of paraphilia, and the bar for gd on the level to be made equivalent to being trans being so reduced and made arbitrary by 'experts' to fit in all of the theyfabs has more so led to people being frustrated with it being tied to intersex conditions than anything.

intersex? yeah, im into sex

I dont know whether to push for a chromosome test to be honest… Right now all I am is hormonally abnormal with no known underlying cause, but I know from my mother that there is a high chance I absorbed a twin in the womb due to her hormone levels at the time. I’m just worried the endos will roll their eyes at suggesting chimerism. I felt dumb enough asking for previous tests already.

>>40096776
you dont know what intersex means and are a coping & colonizing tranny

trans people dont invade intersex spaces and make it about them challenge: IMPOSSIBLE
fuck yall narcissistic dumbasses i hope you never pass

>>40094903 (OP)
i miss oris schizoposting

>>40096892
>This. I just want a space with people like me, I can talk to.

I made this thread because i spent all night bitching to my partner that I'm frustrated at trannies colonizing my words / experience / etc. and making it impossible for me to find peers.
The fucking irony of the first post and the majority of posts since.

>>40099069
what's not intersex about it? and why are you projecting so hard?

>>40096915
what is a kfag

>>40099081
stop invading and appropriating all our spaces and terms you coping & colonizing weirdo white men in dresses

>>40099099
you're not answering my questions or explaining your hysteria, so I'll just assume you're reeing in bad faith

>>40099107
im not gonna cus ur a weirdo appropriator and an asshole who deserves nothing they request

cry to your penis about it, sir

>>40096995
when i was growing up i often described myself as pseudo-trans or 'natural trans' etc due to contradictory puberty vs AGAB (intersex wasnt and still isnt known as a term by most people)

>>40099081
Well for one most trannies don’t feel the cold steel of the knife somewhere deep down their spine cutting major portions of their genitals off so theres that. Furthermore most trannies were not forcibly dosed with testosterone as children without their knowledge or consent. Finally most trannies are not gatekept from lifesaving healthcare (they can DIY) because they have body parts that don’t align with their legal sex. So… no trannies are very different from intersex people.

>>40099184
I didn't say there was no difference, but you're not being specific about what kind of intersex "real" intersex people are or providing any reasoning for why trans people aren't intersex... if you're specifically discussing ambiguous genitalia and the barbaric practice of forced conformity through surgery and hormones, sure, and not every intersex person experiences that either, but trannies are very much gatekept from lifesaving healthcare (not everyone can DIY)

weird how this argument is always from anti-trans people and exclusively rooted in baseless rhetoric! thanks for confirming my biased assumptions

>>40099184
my entire existence has been based around my body not aligning to the role assigned to me, not my preferred role being at odds with my body. i have little sense of a "gender identity" beyond having to adhere to playing the script of such even though it is at odds with my body; it is not because i inherently *want* to perform that script in spite of my body not 'fitting the part'; it is that there *is* no role/script for my body, and so i have to try to shoehorn my body into a part i dont even really want to play, so i can participate in society (often times; the part of least resistance/whichever the body most easily/naturally aligns to with the least amount of alteration/intervention required to not 'stick out' or 'get left behind' societally)

my sentiments often mirror some of the things i hear "terfy" women say; they dont feel they have a gender, but they do feel they have experienced life in their body, being treated certain ways because of their body, and having to continue to navigate life in that configuration of body.

this is considered hate speech to feel or experience though, for some reason. any relation to sex as anything other than a funny word that means the same thing is gender seems to be off limits for discussion or desire to understand.

>>40099201
Well the main reason not to include trannies is because they come in and go “I’m like le heckin klinefelters from because of muh heckin female pubic hair pattern” and then won’t shut up about their tranny brainworms, learn nothing about us, contribute nothing to the space but neurotic passing obsessions and generally presenting intersex people to the world as some kind of mental disorder. You make it harder for us to be believed about our bodies. People like you are the reason my family dismisses hard evidence of my variation as tranny mental disease. You’re the reason I’m gonna die of ovarian cancer at 35 because I can’t remove my malignant organs. Like it or not your performance of being brain intersex or whatever has consequences for the rest of us, while you get off scot free with your dumb little gender affirmed and we all resent you for it.

>>40099201
you are a moron and a harm to intersex rights/understanding/liberation/support

>>40098043
I had to get three karyotypes to confirm chimerism because they kept testing one cell at a time. I eventually demanded they test ten cells and boom 30% XX. Basically, getting a single cell normal karyotype won’t tell you jack shit and if you want answers you have to either go like $5,000 into medical debt or have it out of pocket. Specify you want a test for mosaicism. If possible, test endodermic tissues because this will elucidate more about your gonadal tissue than blood cells, chimerism can vary across germ layers.

>>40099249
can you actually establish with any material evidence or rational discourse why it's trannies' fault that you're not treated well for being intersex?

>>40099261
prove that

bitching about my experiences in intersex communities to AI because queer spaces are tranny/tranny whiteknight hell spaces that will call me a terf if i try to articulate my own experiences or have any discussion about sex instead of gender whatsoever so the only way i can talk about it is to an AI or anonymously on 4chan due to trannies being actually insufferably narcissistic and callous in this particular way they refuse to accept

1/900000

>>40099615
2/900000

>>40099336
Thanks for going into detail anon, seriously appreciated. Aside from having health issues I feel like I’m going insane from the mixed messages I’ve received about my hormones and perceived gender sometimes. I feel like life has been this constant flip-flopping between being told my traits are normal and being told my traits are not, not really meeting the standards for either.

>>40099249
the problem sounds like your family and doctors for not believing an obviously true thing about you rather than trannies (and intersex people were unaccepted/hated/misunderstood way before trannies were ever mainstream, so?)

>>40099628
3/900000

>>40099615
>>40099628
>see! look! this "AI" optimized for engagement and affirmation agrees with me!
this is really sad

>>40099645
its not that it agrees with me; its that it does an excellent job reformatting my actual experiences into an articulated and digestible format *i* as an intersex person agree with, you coping male

>>40099656
prove trans people aren't intersex
I'll wait

>>40099662
i do not humor delusional abusive colonizing males demands for attention/validation, sir

>>40099671
so you can't! whew, that was easy to settle, wasn't it? glad we agree that trans people are intersex now

>>40099643
4/900000

>>40099684
we dont agree on anything but you are excellently displaying your delusional behaviors in all areas of social interactions with that sentence

>>40099691
5/900000

>>40099715
6/900000

>>40096776
A bunch of psyops that aren't intersex are gonna dogpile you for saying this. It's the most obvious case of "natural allies" in the world, so I'm immediately suspicious of weirdos online that try to make beef where there is no logical reason for there to be any
> t. 5ard guy

>>40099726

>>40099752
8/900000

>>40099764
9/900000

>>40099774
10/900000

>>40099791
11/900000

>>40099791
why flood the thread with this absolute AIDS

>>40099807
12/900000

>>40099807
because all of you are retarded troon faggots except like 1 poster

>>40099807
I dont know I think anon is too angry to stop.

>>40099840
13/900000

>>40099840
or maybe because you're a seething middle aged woman with a false test (that probably just got coughed in by a random indian) that wants to be hugboxxed by a yes man ai

>>40099840
what if I'm intersex and I'm not mind-poisoned and realize they've been nothing but nice to me while the rest of society hasn't? In other words, what if I'm not an idiot like yourself?

>>40099857
>a false test

god you people are pathetic and cope so fucking hard anytime intersex people exist
sorry about your incongruent sex and desired gender! hope you get therapy or something!

>>40099871
by "they've" I mean trannies

>>40099879
>thinks im a tranny
kek frumpy foid
soore soore youre not just looking for attention like a perfectly normal, average, median, common afab you are. Soooore.

>>40099871
yeah... right.... larping as intersex and shitting up any intersex related discussion/space and turning it into another trans circlejerk is very very "nice" and in no way contributes to the treatment i receive societally/culturally... right....

>>40099898
moron

I dont have anything to contribute to the discussion but does anyone else in here feel like they got the worst from both worlds in terms of physical appearance with no way to meet the ideals of either except through insanely expensive cosmetic surgeries they’ll never afford?

>>40099900
>goes on tranny/chaser/fag board
>trannies chasers and fags
waow, crazy...
Also avg afab self victimization

>>40099850
13/900000

>>40099940
>is a minority in all areas of life
>goes to place
>is still a minority
>makes thread for minorities
>gets taken over by majority
>"what did you expect going to a place where you are a minority?"
>meanwhile: is a minority in all areas of life/community

whoah crazy, almost like thats the same problem im noting exists in every queer space i exist in, not just 4chan, and like im here because its anonymous, not because of the demographics

>>40099900
you are asking an AI to make arguments for you and your only notion of trans people seems to be from threads where they mildly suggest their dysphoria might be a brain condition under an intersex umbrella (the horror, how COULD they). You need to go outside. Desperately. I'm so annoyed that so many people ostensibly "like me" (ie with some intersex condition) are such basket cases online, shitting on exactly the wrong people for minor imperfections in allyship, cozying up to exactly the wrong people that just want you around as a cudgel to dunk on trannies. Why are so many of you online like this? Psyops? This can't be majority intersex opinion in the real world, no fuckin way, it's online slop.

you know I totally agree that intersex spaces shouldn't be the same as trans spaces, and that being intersex is obviously different from being trans because of genetic or physically observable intermediate traits from birth
on the other hand it's pretty hard to deny that being trans is not to some degree an intersex condition of the brain, unless you're going to outright deny that trans people exist at all. And this is why I think it's appealing for a lot of trans people who consider themselves transsexuals to want to talk about the similarities between being trans and being intersex, because transsexuals have also been made minorities in our spaces by cissex people who adopt gender nonconforming pronouns, presentation, and identities, but aren't medically trans and don't share the same needs, social issues, or real medical disorder that transsexuals have. Because of this it's definitely true that transsexuals are more like intersex people than cissex people, because we also have physical ambiguity, as well as inherent problems with our physical sex from birth.
and again I don't think that this means that trans = intersex or that intersex spaces need to accept trans people who aren't normally classified as intersex, but it's also going to be hard to have sympathy for the hopefully small minority of intersex people who outright deny the existence of trans people. If you can't accept that trans people have a real, innate medical condition that can't be just reduced to an ideology or social identity, that makes you no different from the doctors who see intersex infants as simply malformed normal people, and mutilate their genitals to produce a semblance of normalcy. The people who share your bigoted position on trans people are not going to support your rights or respect your reality as intersex people.

>>40099994
ok tranny

>>40100007
Yeah you're not real, shouldn't have even engaged.

>>40099988
'Non, if you managed to magically make it so that only intersex people would post in it, your thread would immidiately die. Thats how 4chan works.

>>40100002
good take

>>40100002
proper understanding of intersex liberation requires you abandon mindsets like "medically trans", "medical disorder", "inherent problems with our physical sex from birth", "real, innate medical condition"

that is literally like how to be an intersex ally 101: we don't have a condition. we aren't a medical thing. we have a material body that does not look like most. this causes us experience life in a particular way, due to the social norms we are subjected to. for some reason queer politics cannot comprehend this and repeatedly defaults back to this notion, despite that it is inherently antithetical to intersex rights/understanding.....

>that makes you no different from the doctors who see intersex infants as simply malformed normal people
please look in a mirror. i beg you. re-read and really ask here who is doing that. is it your own internal framework?

>>40100047
"there arent enough intersex people around so dont try to find any" great take, sorry about whatever brainworms made you this way

>>40100002
What are the primary symptoms of 5α-reductase deficiency, without googling?

If you can’t understand basic information about intersex people we neither need nor desire your performative allyship and attempted validation by association. You’re just dragging us down with you. If you ask the average person what intersex people are they consider it part of the woke mind virus, partially because you diaper shitting, child molesting, bathroom raping gorillas have associated us with your narcissistic delusions of gender. So yeah, fuck off you’ll never be intersex.

>>40099944
14/900000

>>40100116
Lack of bodily or facial hair
Female external genitalia or small male genitalia, virilization during puberty
No menarche in case of AFAB, very little or no breast development

>>40100116
that's the fault of the average person that sees it as part of the woke mind virus you retard...trannies have done literally nothing to intersex people as a group only normies have

>>40100076
>proper understanding of intersex liberation requires you abandon mindsets like "medically trans", "medical disorder", "inherent problems with our physical sex from birth", "real, innate medical condition"
that is a nice way of thinking about things, but not a practical one. It makes me think of people who talk about physical disabilities being social constructs. It would be nice to live in a world where being in a wheelchair is only an issue of society, but there is of course a real material difference that can't be reduced to a mindset.
In the same way, there's a real material difference between intersex people, and non-intersex people. Many intersex people have nonconsensual surgeries done on them at birth, many have issues with infertility, many are sexually intermediate in ways that most people aren't, sometimes in physical ways, and many intersex people need lifelong medication and surgeries as adults as a result of being intersex. This is a real medical condition whether you like it or not, and it has a number of very real medical consequences.
Would you rather not be able to get any medical treatment for the things that make you different, which many intersex people require treatment for? That would be the consequence of abandoning the mindset. Same consequences for trans people too.
>>40100116
nice terf flag

>>40100130
14/900000

>>40100139
one is in this thread now repeatedly screaming DEBATE ME BRO. DEBATE ME ON WHY I CANT SAY IM JUST LIKE YOU BRO. COME ON BRO.
pretty sure that ones doing *something* retarded. as they OFTEN FUCKING DO ANYTIME INTERSEX PEOPLE EXIST/ARE MENTIONED NEAR THEM.

>>40100116
> partially because you diaper shitting, child molesting, bathroom raping gorillas have associated us with your narcissistic delusions of gender.
Laced that bait a little too hard

>>40100165
>that is a nice way of thinking about things, but not a practical one. It makes me think of people who talk about physical disabilities being social constructs.

you are literally at odds with all intersex rights advocacy, organizations, and understanding. great job. continue dehumanizing and medicalizing people who maynot have any inherent "disability", coping retard. keep mansplaining my own lived experience to me in pathetically dumb perspectives too. blahblahmuh imany intersex people have this medical thing. GREAT. DONT CARE. you are regurgitating ignorant intersexist rhetoric and too stupid to even realize it. thankyou for so prominently displaying how at odds you are with our human rights, recognition, and actual lived realities though!

fyi: i am not sick due to being intersex. i just look and function atypically in a way that does not detract from my health because i have a *difference* of development not a disease or disorder. you are a moron and have no idea how to be supportive of intersex people.

>>40100002
From what Ive understood neurological and brain related conditions currently dont fall under the category, so in the present moment in time I don’t think it’s wrong to say that it isnt an intersex condition of the brain, even if I’m pro trans and intersex alliance.
In the future maybe they’ll learn something new and update the definition and its criteria, but for now it doesnt fit.
I’m curious to see what they’ll know ten years from now though. From what Ive read it seems like theres a link between some of what falls under the intersex umbrella, some of what falls under the neurological umbrella, and some of what falls under the trans umbrella.

OK I alluded to it a bit in here but now I see it as a legitimate phenomenon. I am intersex and I'm starting to realize the representation for intersex people online is batshit crazy. It is so hard to find people with a similar background to me that are just... chill people. Most of the loud/obnoxious examples just make dunking on trannies their full-time obsession because they think it's some sort of life raft to acceptance or something. The representation is complete garbage and I feel embarrassed to be under the same umbrella. Legitimately fucking crazy people.

>>40100236
>fyi: i am not sick due to being intersex. i just look and function atypically in a way that does not detract from my health because i have a *difference* of development not a disease or disorder. you are a moron and have no idea how to be supportive of intersex people.
but many intersex people DO have real medical needs as a result of being intersex. You would throw them under the bus for what, pretending like you aren't physically different from most people? Pretending that being intersex is just a matter of perspective and not a real condition?
the right isn't going to accept you for this

>>40100244
intersex 101: we are not a medical thing
we are just bodies. that is it. we are people with intersex bodies. we may or may not have associated medical issues, such as adrenal gland problems or gender dysphoria, or *we may not*. we are not defined by those things, we are defined by *having an intersex body*.

this seems to not be understood in the majority of queer spaces/discussion and there is rarely any intersex person around say otherwise

>>40100279
you are a disingenuous intersexist moron with selfish ulterior motives and disgust me

>>40100284
The orgs I read pamphlets from stated that it very much was defined by having a physical condition that is recognised as being intersex. The quote you’re quoting doesnt really go against that idea either, it just says that intersex people are people first and foremost, and that the issues can wary from person to person

>>40100255
I havent really seen that many, other than an artist I follow. The one time I looked at tags was sad though, I left pretty quickly

>>40100402
i don't know what pamphlet you have read, but that is not normative language for intersex advocacy. avoiding terms like "condition" and medicalization are and have historically been a huge point of intersex rights advocacy.

ie:
https://interactadvocates.org/faq/
>Intersex is an umbrella term for differences in sex traits or reproductive anatomy.
This very specific wording is what you will see used majorly. It is about have differences related to the physically sexed aspects of the body. Not about a medical condition.

You will see that mirrored again here:
https://interconnect.support/what-is-intersex/
>Intersex is an umbrella term used for a person who is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that does not seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male.
in addition to the sentiment i mentioned earlier:
>Since the late 20th century, there has been a movement to use the term intersex, as both an identity and a political movement. InterConnect chose to use intersex (as opposed to DSD or Disorder of Sex Development) on this site because it is less medicalized, and we believe that it is an identity that should be open to anyone presenting with a history or “body of proof” of intersex, not just those who have been diagnosed by a doctor.

as well as:
https://www.hrc.org/resources/understanding-the-intersex-community
>How Can We Support Intersex People?
>Remove stigma and depathologize intersex bodies. Just like being LGBTQ+ is not a mental disorder, being intersex is not a physical disorder.

you guys are honestly almost always really uneducated and trans-centric even while fancying yourself super woke queer trans angels or w/e

>>40099184
>trannies dont get surgery
>trannies dont get "dosed" with t as a child
>trannies dont get gatekept out of healthcare
lol no one else sees this as obvious bait?

>>40100571
>>trannies dont get "dosed" with t as a child
uh...yeah....they dont, unless theyre ALSO intersex and/or being abused by a psycho

>trannies dont get surgery
yeah, willingly, jackass

>trannies dont get gatekept out of healthcare
gatekept from care they want vs forced into procedures/drugs they DONT want? yeah those are so totally the same yep! trans and intersex are basically the same thing now you so solved it!!

fucking jackass idiot you sound so goddamn stupid

>>40094903 (OP)
can i be intersex as a transition goal?

>>40100907
you can be nonbinary

but there is no specific configuration of traits that describes all intersex people. as nonbinary is an umbrella, so is intersex. so you may identify as one of the genders under the nonbinary gender, and emulate a body type that you may find a particular intersex configuration mirrors, but this does not describe all intersex bodies in a simple binary-like way as most are used to. most people who want to do this want to transition into the stereotypical/mythical "hermaphrodite" archetype that most real intersex bodies do not reflect, for instance.

being trans is a kind of a intersex

>>40100968
i am very aware that intersex people usually doesn't look like the sterotypical greek female with penis, but lets say that is my transition goal. what clothes should i wear? how should i be? i want to look like pic related

>>40101044
>what clothes should i wear?
get some linen sheets

>>40101044
then wear what is in your picture

>>40100533
European ones, because I’m European. They don’t seem to be against the idea of using words like condition here, which I suspect is due to universal healthcare not covering medical costs for those of us who need it if it’s worded differently. Culturally I think theres also less people who would see having a condition as something that denies them the right to be seen as human. Theres a few groups of course, like gay people, who fought hard against the idea of having a condition, but that was thought of as a mental condition rather than a physical one, which made a huge difference in rights and treatment by society and government.
A few deaf and blind groups also argue that being blind or deaf isnt a condition either, but it often ends up going nowhere because the majority of people who feel like that are people who were born with it, which leaves out the rest of the community who, again, often relies on governments thinking of it as a condition in order to provider proper healthcare and support.
TL:DR it’s not as black and white as you make it out to be

>>40101061
sounds perfect if we keeped living in ancient greece

>>40101062
naked? would you go to a nudist camp if you had both tits and penis?

>>40101011
ive seen it described as a sort of medically induced artificial intersex condition (on this board, obviously)

>>40101080
(And I am not one of the trans anons, by the way. I dont know why you automatically thought that.)

>>40101080
>They don’t seem to be against the idea of using words like condition here

you are so out of your league you look so dumb to and full of yourself to me
im replying to you jackasses bullshit with organizations whos names and words i know while you dont know shit and jhust make up weird intersexist lies to justify your shitass behavior and insistence on maintaining and propagating intersexist misinformation

https://www.oiieurope.org (MAIN INTERSEX ADVOCACY GROUP FOR EUROPE)
>“Disorder of Sex Development (DSD)” is a medical umbrella term, which was introduced in 2006 by a Clinician Consensus Statement. Together with new categories of “syndromes”, it replaced the older medical terms. Some clinicians use DSD to stand for “differences of” or “diverse” sex development. However, in all its forms the term pathologises healthy variations of sex characteristics and refers to intersex sex characteristics as characteristics that are “deviant” from the norm of male and female bodies and thus need to be “disambiguated” or “fixed”. The term “DSD” does not align with human rights standards, and is only used in direct quotations or when referring to medical concepts that use the term.


INTERSEX HUMAN RIGHTS AUSTRALIA (lead by creator of the intersex flag, largely leading the way in terminology/advocacy/progress and influence for intersex rights on a global level right now):
https://interaction.org.au/style/
>“We don’t favour the terms intersex condition or hermaphrodite … ‘Condition’ is considered medicalised by many intersex people.”

>>40101125
i really dont give a fuck what you do, you are like a stereotypical fetishizer/romanticizer to me tailing intersex groups wherever they go. go jerk off to futa porn or something. i am tired of humoring people like you.

>>40101290
Nta but tired of transmeds trying to jump on the boat only to push intermed ideas. Drown drown drown. Your interests are aligned with doctors and insurers to keep intersex people patients for life

>>40099247
I'm not intersex and is actually really insightful, thank you. I'm male but have never felt comfortable with being a man but have never had any desire to be a woman. I have trans friends and I'm not a TERF but I do understand the dislike for people reinforcing gender norms and have to catch myself sometimes from starting to be transphobic.
Hopefully the queer + feminist communities can figure out how to be OK with people not having a gender in our lifetimes instead of fighting amongst themselves about it and continuing to leave intersex people behind.
I think we're starting to see some real cracks. I don't entirely like the Marxist angle to it but I think James Penney has laid a theoretical groundwork for moving past the current, unhelpful phase of queer ideology.

>>40099074
I mean it's inevitable and like clockwork. You sort of get used to it, but it's also just aggravating.

>>40101154
altersex =/= intersex

>>40101080
>A few deaf and blind groups also argue that being blind or deaf isnt a condition either
okay but those people definitely have a condition either way because they're retarded

>>40104395
You can be both altersex and intersex though, further confusing normie tranners. But yeah altersex is a thing you can actually transition to. No matter what surgeries you get you will never become intersex.

>>40102190
yeah maybe one day the loonie troonies will stop clinging to gender larp bullshit and stop holding the rest of us back from being treated as real, existent, and complex humans instead of retarded stereotypes and copes

>>40104421
kek

>>40104429
I count as both though the alterations done to me were not because that was how *I* wanted my body to be, which *even further* complicates and diverges the narrative from the typical perisex trans experience in a very "intersex" way.

>>40104485
I just cut off my whole downstairs mixup. Never been happier. That surgery abomination was dysfunctional, painful, and hideous. Now it is clean and smooth.

>>40100619
anon not everything is intersex
some parents just force their kids into hormonal treatments just because they're subjectively too short/tall
That's why i lowkey hate your retarded tumblrina ass community. You victimize yourself to hell and back, but screech and cry the second anybody shares any experience with you. Because you have to be the little special snowflake, don't you? Get the fuck off of 4chan retarded whining bitch and go brag about your mother fucking her cousin somewhere else

>>40099247
mhmm you only definitely said that.. absolutely... i absolutely feel bad for you aww :c
>>40104445
Maybe one day we'll fully prevent incest and dysgenics breeding and youll stop existing :3 womp womp.

>>40105284
>some parents just force their kids into hormonal treatments just because they're subjectively too short/tall

you are an actual disingenuous moron. legitimately. grasping at any retarded straws you can.

>cry the second anybody shares any experience with you.
no. you dont. my experience is having an intersex body. trans people do not have a fucking intersex body no matter how badly they want to "share" the experience of being intersex because of their stupid ass feelings.

kys. legitimately. insecure dumbass tranny that cant register that being trans is about having a gender identity at odds with your fucking body/sex and being intersex IS NOT THAT.

>>40099069
I always liked the "intersex" definition from antiquity;
"Congratulations, ma'am, it's a...

...uh oh"

>>40105316
>waah wahhhh waahhhh you a tranny
Maybe i just want to bully your retarded mutated ass. Back to tumblr you go.

>>40105343
ok tranny

>>40105345
Ok
You were made via generations of cousinfucking btw

>>40105352
ok tranny

>>40100169
15/900000

>>40105395
16/900000

>>40105403
17/900000

>>40105406
18/900000

>>40105418
19/900000

>>40105422
>>40105418
>>40105406
>>40105403
>>40105395
>wahh i have to have my liddle gpt hugbox that will agree with everything I say waahh

>>40105395
i been saying this shit since like 2011 btw

watching yall crash this plane to hell over 15 years while im sitting here like "i told ya so" has been funny

>>40105434
as already explained earlier: i am not using this as evidence something agrees with me, i am using it to articulate my own knowledge and thoughts into a more mass marketed/easier processed language and format

keep coping in your seething dysphoric delusions, retard

>>40105448
>waahhh wahhh i have to use chatgpt to think for me because im a stupid dumdum foid everyonr that thinks its stupid is a stinking bad TRANNYYYY waa
Every single argument you're making could be used to dismantle "le womyns rites" as they're basically based on delusion and neurotic tantrums

>>40105525
ok tranny

>>40105530
K hole

>>40105578
ok ketamine fan

>>40100002
>Because of this it's definitely true that transsexuals are more like intersex people than cissex people

intersex people can be cis too, you fucking mong. the term used to identify non-intersex people, including the majority of trans people, is perisex. not cis. very trans-centric and intersex ignorant language usage good job.

>>40100002
> it's pretty hard to deny that being trans is not to some degree an intersex condition of the brain, unless you're going to outright deny that trans people exist at all

no its pretty easy for me to say yeah, most trans people do not have bodily material related to fertility and reproduction capabilities. they have some thoughts and neurons firing around, but their junk and body is pretty fucking normal even if they hate it.

this shit youre saying is also insane because youre setting the stage for brain scanning trans people or some shit and anyone who cant be diagnosed with the Trans Brain isnt actually trans. your own stupid framework is the one that oppresses and medicalized intersex people in a way youre so blatantly fucking blind/inexperienced to, and ALSO destroys support for self-identification, you actual fucking retard. good job burning down YOUR OWN HOUSE.

>>40105944
>>40105977
I'm still convinced that trans folk that are trying to spin that they meet the criteria for intersex are just self-hating, self-repressing people that hold some internal shame and guilt for being transgender.

That they looking for a medical avenue to blame for their feelings to rationalise it more to themselves than to others. Basically they need this to be true for their own ego. They are so invested emotionally it clouds their logic. They don't know the body horror or social stigma to be a man that got tits for puberty or a woman that got a deeper voice and facial hair. They are unable to grasp that the majority of intersex people, even those with surgical assignments are generally cisgender ( ie cais males are almost always assigned female, and live out their lives that way. PAIS males can go either way, but again the majority are cis gender with their assigned sex and never really question it. I admittedly don't know much about the female side as it's not relevant to me.)
Their ignorance also really shows when I have trans women tell me how lucky I am...no you fuck off it made school and early life hell. It made me a social pariah, and I felt intense self hatred for years. I felt like I was predestined to be a freak all for something I had zero control over. I was fine as a young kid, everything just got all fucked up during puberty. I lost friends, got pushed out of social activities I liked such as sports and yes the church. It fucking sucked. I just wanted to be a normal guy...

Sincerely a pais, cisgender male who's been on both testosterone (did nothing but make my tits bigger) and estrogen(at least made me not feel like I was in a fog lost in life...and kept making my tits bigger). I like being a man...albeit a very gay, very feminine one.

>>40101290
Anon I’m not trying to be a shithead or trying to spread “intersexist misinformation” (what?), I’m saying that the word “condition”, which was what you initially was opposed to, to many europeans does not equate to thinking somebody needs to be fixed, or that they’re necessarily sick from it. Opinions are always going to be varied, especially in groups as big as this. The group I met at pride years ago, in the intersex stall, did in fact use the term, but like any other group they dont want people forcing surgery on kids, or pressuring anyone onto hormones. That really seems to be the one uniting thing throughout all of them.
So no, Im not trying to do whatever evil it is you’re thinking I am, I just wanted to tell the trans anon that I dont think anyone would classify transness as an “intersex condition of the brain” at the current point in time. That was all.

>>40106134
>I admittedly don't know much about the female side as it's not relevant to me.
Nta. as far I’ve seen on the afab side there are some varieties where staying cis is more likely, and others where going trans is more common. Variants with more androgen seem more prone to wanting to transition from what I’ve observed, but it’s obviously not everyone.

Why is the intersex flag a hole? Is it because your all bottoms?

>>40106669
I feel very called out right now and don't like it.

I think it was a circle to symbolise completeness and being whole since many of us were catagories as lesser or pseudosexes.
I know the colours are just to be different from pink and blue, but they are atrocious and it makes me think of a blue ring octopus.

>>40099656
>articulated and digestible format
>ten million separate images

I don't know much about intersex folk but I'd like to know more. what's it like?

I hate intersex spaces, they're all just about self acceptance instead of fixing this biological curse.

hence why I only talk to trans men.

>>40108852
I’ve seen your back while lurking I think, it looks nice. Has pooning out helped you feel less cursed? I’ve only seen afabs with regular girl tits and so on talk about how it feels, not other intersex afabs.
>>40108649
Lonely.
And people tend to touch you or ask inappropriate questions, even if they mean no harm. It’s awkward.

>>40109321
I'm not afab.

but yes it's made life manageable, I still hate myself and I am convinced I will never be loved, but at least I don't want to die.

>>40109384
My bad, but reassuring to hear it’s ever so slightly better than before. I’ve only tried the opposite (estrogen and so on after endos refusing to treat my other symptoms if I didnt give it a try), but it felt awful and forced.

>>40108852
>"I hate intersex spaces, they're all just about self acceptance instead of fixing this biological curse."
>hence why I only talk to trans men.

>meanwhile: amab

you are a coping larping tranny. you are not ftm. you are not female. you are a coping tranny larping intersex. you are obsessed with FTMs because you know they have the female sex you never will. you lie about being intersex for the same reason: you are male and insecure/dysphoric about it.

kys.

>>40109534
Anon some intersex people are assigned intersex at birth. I’m assuming thats what ogre is? Please chill.

>>40109534
I do not want to be feminine or female, the reason we relate is because we've both had surgery and are on hormones lol.

>>40108649
it varies greatly by individual
a common theme is growing up/puberty years being filled with "why am i broken, am i like, gay or something?" (especially older intersex people pre gender politics explosion) along with a lot of familial conflict surrounding it.

i was not made aware of stuff by my parents/doctors as a kid, then hit puberty and began hiding and freaking out and feeling a lot of shame and fear (including that i might have a serious disease, etc.)

another common theme is getting repeatedly conflated with transgender people since the boom in trans politics post 2014 or so.
people *used* to more easily understand what i meant when i told them why i am the way i am. they would instantly just think of a 'hermaphrodite' or something they DID have a frame of reference for; it was treated like a two headed cow or some other oddity, but still almost instantly understood. NOW when i try to say i'm intersex or explain myself, its immediately taken to be some sort of identity or gender; i am perceived to be making a statement about my desires and personal feelings instead of an uncontrollable aspect of physical reality outside my doing. this has been really frustrating. the emergence of nonbinary also had people constantly just go "oh so youre nonbinary" and discard everything about my being intersex, and switch to calling me nonbinary, and lump me into a group with a bunch of perisex people who wear eyeliner and spiked collars.

i've also had a bunch of shitty treatment in medicine, including mental health/psych care, because their standard procedures don't account for someone with my anatomical and hormonal configuration. certain medications they put people on willy nilly throw my whole system wildly out of whack (HPA axis, etc), but their procedures don't call for monitoring of hormones/etc. alongside these medications because for perisex people, they're not that significant.

>>40109564
referring to intersex people as having "a biological curse" and how all the intersex people/communities are sooooo bad for not following a "we need to FIX our horrible diseased body" is red flag for tranny brain rot and antithetical to intersex human rights

also theyre an attention whoring trip fag. trash. lying larping attention whoring trash.

>>40094903 (OP)
Holy shit I leave for like a few days and now we have a gen
>I went to my dr yesterday I’m not doing well I guess :/ I think my mental state isn’t doing my body any favors

>>40109614
>"oh so youre nonbinary”
Gods yeah, or when people switch to using they/them for you without asking. I dont even mind nonbinary people, but it feels bad. Or it/its, thats even worse.
>>40109633
I just took it as a spur of the moment outburst about a personal feeling he had. I don’t feel good about my body either, so I can relate to feeling cursed

>>40109688
Dont get your hopes up I think most of it is this one angry anon posting screenshots of conversations with an AI… sorry to hear about your mental state :( your art in the artgen slapped

>>40109783
Thanks :3 maybe I’m over thinking things a little, like it’s normal to get screenings for certain types of cancer at my age

The fuck is this thread lmao

>>40109321
>lonely
I can imagine with how little people in general know about it
>people tend to touch you
jesus fuck what ever happened to boundaries

>>40109614
if you don't mind my asking. when you did you realize you were intersex and how?
also how do you go about bringing it up to a significant other?

>>40094903 (OP)
Greetings

>>40109614
This is one of the best descriptions and quick synopsis I have read in a while.

Also while I'm at it, is there some way to select the flag in quick reply or is that only for long format reply?

>>40109812
Everyone just about gets cancer screenings as we get older. It's pretty normal, even if it's wierd that as a man my doctors office still sends me a remind to get a pap smear for cervical cancer...to which I always have a good chuckle about. Really it's just some blood work to scan for markers. Possibly an MRI of the abdomen usually around the time I get my dexa scans. I'm not looking forward to the breast cancer boob squishing though and it's right around the corner. Probably should have a prostate exam but last time I had one it was undetectable via the normal "poke it" method.

>>40110041
puberty age
i didnt start physically developing/functioning in the ways my AGAB should have and instead started developing the opposite. not in a subtle way. very blatant and socially traumatic. parents hid shit from me as a kid then started trying to get me on hormones in my teens while i felt like a gay freak and my mom called me a faggot. learned about intersex stuff during the beginning of that mess.

>>40110188
i tried to find how from the quick reply but it only works in the big one for me

if youre using 4chan x it won't work without a script AFAIK
i dont come here often enough to care so i just disabled 4chan x for now rather than install some shitty script

>>40109783
i made the thread after bitching at my partner for 4 hours about how frustrated i am with trans bullshit drowning out any intersex space/convo and them repeatedly lying to me about being intersex and making it impossible to find spaces to exist in, that the moderation of any "intersex" space tends to just be some trans gender politics adherents and the space miserable for actual intersex people rather than identity politics/gender bullshit

then felt bad for bitching so much to them and went to bitch to a chatbot about it instead because i cant bitch in any queer space without being called a horrible evil bioessentialist or something fucking stupid

then made an anonymous thread here free of stupid fucking mods and THE LITERAL FIRST POST IS A TRANS PERSON GOING "HURDUR IM PROBABLY INTERSEX"

so then i just posted the fucking ai chat
because im aware its a "yes man"
im aware its regurgitating my feelings into business email format and that i talk weird
and because it was fucking ironic that the literal first post was the shit that motivated me to make the thread in the first place

i wish every troon like that first reply one a life full of transphobia, and every respectful trans person in my life a wonderful life of whatever they wish for themselves

>>40110415
idk anon i think people would be more willing to listen to your perspective if you didn't make it so blatantly obvious you don't respect trans people on a basic level.
like, i don't get why you don't just directly say you think trannies are doing a bunch of made up hysterical bullshit delusions if you're gonna talk about "gender ideology" and "identity politics"

>>40109812
Yeah, true, even if can understand why it can make people nervous. they screened me for one recently without telling me until afterwards though, that kind of took me by surprise lol
>>40110013
>jesus fuck what ever happened to boundaries
The truth is that most people simply don’t know how to behave because it’s something they aren’t familiar with. Most of it isnt done with bad intentions, and some of the kinder people will realise they’ve effectively subjected you to something inappropriately sexual after the fact and apologise, but it’s still kind of crazy being 14 and having your new classmates asking to touch your body while getting dressed for PE. And grown adults and professionals aren’t much better…

>>40110415
anon i think people would be nicer to you and your ideas if you weren't such a retarded whiny bitch

>>40109891

>>40110517
no u etc etc

>>40110460
>you don't respect trans people on a basic level

cry about shit that isnt true because im sick of being walked all over by a large population of delusional trannies (which, wow, isnt all of them! but it sure is the first post of this thread and a whole fucking lot of them!)

>>40110415
Uh, geez. Look I can sympathise with wanting a space to talk about intersex issues, I mean thats why I showed up here myself, but spending this much energy being this angry and directing it at everyone in here is a little intense.

>>40110566
trans people do not have a choice in being trans. a trans person is trans in exactly the same sense as an intersex person being intersex. one is not a more valid or real state of being than the other.

>>40110567
myguy

>>40110566
see >>40099840

>>40110583
shut the fuck up it is not the same fucking thing i am sorry you have some stupid fucking insecurity that makes you neuroticially need to erase intersex experiences and fold them into trans ones but i frankly hope you die and that they put your birth name on your grave too

>>40110700
didn't say it was the same thing. said it's just as real and just as objective and just as out of our control

>>40110583
I dont think angry anon is going to listen to you tran anon, I think they just want to yell at everyone :/

>>40110691
Go make an OS from scratch then, maybe that will help

>>40110700
whoa

>>40110710

>>40110781
Yeah welcome to the thread lol

>>40110839
its simple really:
1. i will shit down the throat of any tranny that comes into my intersex home and shits their dysphoric diarrhea everywhere while saying it's actually their house
2. i will offer refreshments, information, and entertainments to every tranny that comes into my intersex home and does NOT take a massive dump everywhere nor say it is their house
3. im fucking crazy

>>40110834
You presumably have have been around long enough to know this doesn't work. We are terrible, horrible, awful no good people for not instantly accepting each and every tranny and will always be seen as such. See it repeat on literally any online forum, group, etc once they get big enough. If you don't accept trans folk as instantly "kinda like intersex lol" they shit all over your group after pecking and scratching it like a chicken.

>>40110959
yeah i made this thread after bitching to partner for too long, then bitching to AI, based on these repeated experiences

what got me talking about it to partner and started the chain of events was looking at the r/intersex subreddit recent posts and seeing a thread that's a person saying they and their BF were sure this afab was intersex, they identified as it for the last 2 years, etc. and just got their test results for hormone labs and imaging back and there is literally nothing abnormal, they are not intersex in any form.
when asked why they thought they were intersex, they said because it explained so much of how they felt, and because they "look androgynous without makeup on", have "wide shoulders", and other such cope bullshit.
and the response in the comments wasnt to tell them theyre a coping tranny, it was to validate them as still probably intersex, and even suggest that because the "intersex people get lied to!!!" trop exiss to them, suggest that the patient portal and doctor were lying to them today, in 2025.

this mirrors most discord servers and basically any queer space i have been in. i have been called a terf and told im evil and misgendering people, for telling an MTF that they probably do not have CAH based on an infographic describing virilization symptoms matching......... the mtf's male puberty. the admin of that server chided me then went into a circular dance about what words we CAN use *in an intersex server* in an incohrent way that does nothing but essentially this >>40105395 in yet another new form, while still making it borderline impossible to discuss intersex bodies/experiences because god forbid reality make a transgender person feel insecure--must be because the person talking about the aspects of reality the trans person is insecure about is a bigot! yeah its ALWAYS that!

>>40110913
You kind of just seem like you’re shitting everywhere including on intersex people who arent nodding along with everything you say. Seriously, it doesnt seem healthy to be this riled up all the time

>>40111141
suck my asshole and eat my shit

>>40111141
They do seem irrationally upset and repeating the same things over expecting different results. I agree with some of their sentiments and feelings, but they are doing a poor job of wording it.

Like I've said there's overlap. But right now following the current deterministic criteria, transgenderism is in itself not an intersex variations. They may have over lap, and we may determine in the future through some new genome map that it is....but for now I still feel like trans folks come in and want to take over the intersex spaces based on my experiences.

It doesn't help that the only time intersex patients seem to make the news these days are as pawns in the arguments for and against transgender rights.

Our health care options either way are intertwined, intersex people are still fighting for autonomy and trying to earn the right to not have mutilating surgeries performed against their will, and trans folks want the option to have corrections performed at will. We might both have things forced upon us against our will, But I don't think they are exactly 1:1 analogus.

In general transgender healthcare seems to be a method of preventing changes that would happen naturally, and reverse them. Where as with a lot of intersex care these are issues that have already happened, and we are trying mitigate them. Both are two sides of the same body horror coin, but to call the the same seems ignorant at best if not deliberately deceitful at worst.

I hope I worded that okay. I'm not the best with words. I'm an engineer, not a poet.

oh i forgot when i replied to
>>40110041
>>40110324
to answer this part:
>also how do you go about bringing it up to a significant other?

i just tell them what my body is doing/like/has. usually they are in disbelief and since the trans/gender stuff maybe even argumentative and accuse you of coping/lying due to gender stuff, but once actually shown the material reality they back off and may even be apologetic/embarassed/ashamed/guilty/etc.
ie: my current partner i told about it early on, but they admitted to having categorized me as "probably trans/lying; wishful thinking" but once we were physical/sexual with each other and they saw me more frequently when i was not fully dressed/trying to "pass as normal" they realized. basically they did not believe me until they saw my unaltered/unobscured naked body.
after that they usually kinda struggle to understand the implications in full but at least have some notion of "well youre not normal, i know that much" even if they can't fully understand how it or your life/experiences work due to lack of exposure/cultural knowledge to similar people.

>>40111279
>but they are doing a poor job of wording it.

i came to 4chan to be anonymous and fully unhinged and let nearly 20 years of bottled, platformless frustrations run free because idgaf what you people think ultimately; im anonymous and here primarily for my own catharsis and enjoyment

also fuk da trannies etc etc we wuz 4chan n shiet

>>40111279
also this sentence
>It doesn't help that the only time intersex patients seem to make the news these days are as pawns in the arguments for and against transgender rights.

is SO SAD
you autopilot say intersex PATIENTS, not PEOPLE, and medicalize intersex people throughout soooo much of your word choice

you may be intersex, but you are ignorant to anything related to advocacy and rights related, and fall into the same norms as the dominant culture around you. the equivalent would be internalized homophobia or some such.

>>40111279
Yeah, I agree with some of it too, but the presentation, the extreme black/white thinking, wordpolicing, and needless ad hominem is just… Not something that inspires good conversation, seeing as we’re all quite different from each other, with different background and variations.

>I hope I worded that okay
I think you did a good job :)
I’m not of the belief that belief that being trans is an intersex variation either, and I agree that it is frustrating for all parties that intersex discussion gets muddied out by misguided trans discussion when there are certain aspects of our identities that arent the same. It’s hard enough to find anyone to talk to about the intersex specific problems we may be facing offline as it is, and this doesnt make it easier. Lashing out like anon does seems like a bad idea to me, however, and just makes me feel even more ashamed and alienated if I have to bare myself a little here. I’m not saying we have to be perfect angels all the time, but… We don’t have to be yelling all the time either.

There's no necessary condition for someone's being intersex and trans gender, and vice versa. They describe different things. Intersex people sometimes cannot produce the gamete type of the sex they were born as/most closely resemble based on certain properies, whereas the vast majority of trans gender people are able to produce either male or female gametes (before medically transitioning/surgery).

>>40111676
>I think you did a good job :)

i dont.

>>40111759
Well pardon me for not giving much credit to the quality of your assessments then, but you did just spend several hours of your life spam posting chatgpt screenshots and yelling at strangers on a dying website on the internet

>>40111759
We get it dude, you are just upset with the world. Wanting to vent and stir the pot. Take a chill pill, drink a glass of milk, eat a cookie. See if you feel better.
>>40111676
That's also true since we don't know each person's specific defect, all our care and perceptions could be so wildly different it's almost comical. Even with the same diagnosis of pais, you can pick other people like me, and we all look different with some people seeming unaffected, some basically appearing female, and some like me somewhere between all with different treatments and expectations.

Interesting that because I used a word they dont I'm now an enemy. Can't win for losing I guess.

>>40105422
This whole string of posts has to be the funniest thing I've seen all week, people really just let large language models intellectually suck them off like this to justify their worldview? Crazy. No hate on intersex people in general obv, and yes your experiences are obviously different from trannies. But you in particular have been rendered 100% retarded by jerking your brain off with whatever "AI" this is.

>>40111877
you refer to intersex people as patients instead of people basically anything you say has no merit at this point

>>40111827
ah yes, because reducing intersex people from people to patients is so much better

>>40111939
ok tranny

>>40111980
I shrug at your reproach. If you want to mald so hard at trannies that you embrace righttard viewpoints and self-justify transphobia, that's your business. You impoverish yourself, not me.

Why do trannies hate nonbinary and try to distance themselves from nonbinary people, but love to pretend they are intersex and conflate themselves with intersex conditions?

>>40111877
Yeah dont worry I’m evil too for using the word condition rather than variant I guess lmao. And yes, it’s one of those things where even if we’re in the same group the group is so diverse that we have to keep it in mind whenever we interact with others within it or risk pushing people out into the cold. Everything from our feelings towards healthcare professionals and the treatment we received from peers can have such big variances and be so strong that we have to remember not to take it out on those who differ from us.

>>40112024
its about trying to find external validation in the medical system in my opinion looking for some underlying answer for they they are non conforming, or trans gender, or what have you. Something to point to and say "see, its not my fault" when they never had to do that in the first place. (generalized you) feeling you are the wrong gender is just as valid. Its okay. Its just something different.
>>40112030
I feel like the last few of these ig's I have posted in or just looked through turned out like this too. Honestly, it seems better to just sit in one of the gender non conforming spaces.

>>40112024
>why does (made up thing) happen?
Believe it or not there are different groups of trans people who have different views on things and think different thoughts. Trans people who try to distance trans from nb probably also distance trans from intersex, since that sort of trans person tends to be a self-hating conservatroon. Trans people who embrace nb people would tend to also subscribe more to the idea that trans and nb people are the result of some sort of as yet not understood intersex neurological development:
https://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html

>>40112076
That’s honestly kind of sad to hear, but I guess it’s almost to be expected. Which ones of the gnc spaces do you hang out in? I’ve mostly hung out in bigen from time to time but Ive never really talked about intersex stuff in there or any of the other gens I’ve visited. It always makes me feel like I’m being annoying if I bring it up…

>>40112202
I just poke around in places that seem relevant. manmoder, mtfg since for all intents and purposes on paper am a tranny, occasionally gaygen since im gay...that sort of thing.

Or my own server my partner and I run for our local TTRPG stuff. Its mostly gay queer men, two intersex persons, a few FTM's and 2 MTF's. I don't really give that out though as its just for people that actually show up to my home.

I spend more time on automotive forums and the like than I do for gender and sex related support...since the later I think I pretty much figured out at this point.

>>40112301
>manmoder, mtfg, gaygen
I see, following that logic I guess I’m stuck where I already am, maybe excluding ftmgen
>I dont really give that out though
Yeah, no, thats understandable, bringing random /lgbt/ers into irl ttrpg groups would be a mess lol. Sounds like a fun time though, that aside

>>40096929
I wanted to lurk this thread and read about the lives of a demographic I almost never get any exposure to, and instead there's a rapehon shitting up the thread because some trannies just experience an incandescent fury at the mere existence of a community that doesn't involve them.
I'm glad that Trump won and people like you are afraid to exist.

>>40112007
"anyone who doesnt agree with me is only doing so because theyre part of the evil bogeyman alt right!"
no fucker just not everyone is a fucking tranny and we have our own needs and experiences whether it makes a tranny feel "less valid" or not. you guys act like tyrants then cry when someone fights back and blame them for not bending to you at expense of their self.
see:
>>40111046
"because the person talking about the aspects of reality the trans person is insecure about is a bigot! yeah its ALWAYS that!"

kys.

>>40114443
we get talked over by fucking trannies 24/7, when we fight back they claim theyre ackshually intersex themselfs!, and no one ever gets to actually learn about us because they never see us

so i will shit down the throat of every colonizing, self-centered tranny that cant butt the fuck out of intersex spaces and convo when they have a bazillion spaces for trannies/themself already

>>40112024
because they can change their gender to be man/woman but not their sex, so asserting theyre intersex is as close as they can get to having a sex that aligns to their gender. aka desperate coping. they dont want to be nonbinary. they wouldn't want to be intersex either if they could just claim to have the sex opposite their biological one, but they cant, so a desperate cope of "actually im intersex" is as close as they can get. "better than the current alternatives/options for my sex."

>>40112089
>why does (made up thing) happen?

you sound like those shitty dudes who say any mention of abuse, sexual harassment, etc. that women talk about is actually made up and never happened and societally treats them exactly the same as men.

you are a scumbag who lies and tries to assert its everyone else who is lying

kys, sir

>>40114719
>>40114659
>>40114610
>>40114596
go back to tumblr
>kyyyys kyys i am malding and seething i will shit downyour throat kyyys
you need to be 18 to use this site
this thread should die because it's fucking retarded
40110834
40110959
40111046
why do you faggots have such victim complexes? oh gooood, someone doesnt suck my nuts and lick my boots with every word, I am soo opressed and talked over, womp womp
also
>yes this absolutely happened i believe your every word yes a 9 feet tranny with 13 inch gock that totally raped you is totally real uh huh

>>40110247
Ugh yeah I think it’s easy to feel miffed about the situation like I hate the squish but I know it’s important since my mom has had a few scares, same with worry about osteoporosis (especially since I’ve already been on medication for it). We really are fragile creatures :(

>>40112089
>Trans people who try to distance trans from nb probably also distance trans from intersex, since that sort of trans person tends to be a self-hating conservatroon.
Conservatroons need medical permission to feel valid. Intersex is more "valid" than trutrans. But they'll never get along because muh two genders, so they're doomed to pretending gender dysphoria is an objective diagnosis in their own corner.

>>40097359
>people acting as if faketransness vs trutransness is totally arbitrary are kidding themselves a bit.
Yes.

>>40116561
For me E + P with virtually no other changes increased my bone density about 5% in the first year, putting me back in the normal range. No extra calcium or D intake. Next dexa is on the 8th so I'm hoping that exercise has helped the density go up a little more.

>>40116036
seethe and cope and piss and shit yourself harder, tranny

lgbt
not qia

>>40117588
Same with exercise, I’ve gained too much in the last two years and I know it’s not helping my other medical issues just need to not over work it incase of seizures.

>>40118595
you will never be a cis woman

>>40118595
I have a dick and like dicks in my ass.
I cross dress.
I'm on the same cross sex hormones as tranner would be.
I feel like I hit a few of the letters without I.

PS. Suck my tits.

>>40099745
there have been some papers that suggest or outright state it's a more coherent framing for understanding sex, gender, and sexuality (in particular "transgenderism") as intersex variations

>>40120144
Dats not intersex though. Intersex is not just any old variation in sex. For instance, being born with a septate uterus, while a variation in a sexual organ, is not intersex. So even if there is some biological basis for trannyism, that doesn’t automatically make it intersex.

Think my doctor wants to send me to a regular gyno again and find myself wishing theyd cut me open and look around instead of guessing and leaving me to grow more cysts because they missed them again. Fucking hurts when they burst…

>>40120199
according to what definition or convention?

>>40120144
you will never be cis or intersex, cope harder perisex tranny faggot

>>40120453
Well the word intersex doesn’t necessarily describe a biological reality, but a social condition of not being allowed to self-determine one’s own sex in light of one’s body, but rather being forced into a legal fiction of sex for the comfort of doctors, parents, and society at large. So really, when you claim being intersex is a biological reality of difference from some objective biological norm, you’re being intersexist.

>>40120199
PCOS is also technically not intersex even if every fat coping FTM wants to insist it is despite PCOS being related to sex.
Hyperandrogenism that PCOS *sometimes* causes may cause an intersex body, and *that* is considered intersex -- not ovarian cysts or PCOS in itself.

>>40120712
ding ding ding u are correct

loony troonies are desperate to be intersexist and medicalize/pathologize intersex bodies so they can claim their own dysphoria is "totally natural and not pathological at all, the only thing pathological is my body bc im intersex due to my totally normal body!!" completely unaware of how fucking retarded their logic is and how they are dooming themself to the same "you are broken/wrong" shit they think theyre escaping by larping as intersex.

faggot ass retard trannies cant even lie properly

>>40120755
I mean the idea that there’s an objective measure of the “correctness” one’s sex that determines the degree of “correction” required is obviously garbage. Nature doesn’t strictly delineate between perisex and intersex bodies, but doctors DO. Although our struggles may be grounded in frictions between biological reality and the social roles placed on us without consent, it is clear to me that our bodies are emphatically not the problem.

>>40120712
you're contradicting yourself so I don't know what you're actually trying to say, and I'll once again ask
>according to what definition or convention?

>>40120777
ya im aware

average troon hiveminder likes to say le gender is a social construct and imply sex is also a social construct or get really uncomfortable having to even consider whether it is or not, and have no idea how the fuck sex could actually be a social construct, and relegates intersex to a "third sex" and still holds "male" and "female" in their mind. basically they are morons that regurgitate propaganda they cant understand and trap themself in le social construct sex binary that they INSIST they are not trapping themselves in, nor are they being intersexist, cus theyre just soooooo woke they definitely got everything figured out and would never EVER be problematic in any way because the Gender Bible teaches you how to be perfect the second you become trans.

>>40120844
you will never be cis or intersex, cope harder and eat more artificial estrogen drugs about it, perisex tranny faggot

>>40120864
>>40120693
shhh stop spamming

Could the like...three of you just take a chill pill?
>>40120864
And you specifically, why do you keep just lashing out at everyone? Cool your tits, put on your big boy pants. Take a break, eat a snack, come back when you feel better. You are actively hurting your own case and make us look like cunts, and I don't need any help with that.

>>40120868
nigga you are spamming this thread with your dysphoria diarrhea because youre sad you will never be cis and are retarded

YOU stop spamming the intersex thread and go back to your tranny containment zone

>>40120844
Its only a contradiction if you’re a sneaky tranny who tried to push transmedicalism for valid points, failed, decided to attempt to jump onto the intersex barge to push intermedicalism, and are failing at that too. Medicalizing the intersex experience doesn’t actually help, it further stigmatizes and others us. So yes, if you discover trannyism has some strictly delineated biological basis, this is good evidence to support transmedicalism, and has no bearing on intersex issues, nor does it equate trannyism to being intersex. Stay in your lane instead of trying to jump into ours.

>>40120914
see >>40120868

>>40120904
I'm just asking for some concrete definitions instead of boilerplate anti-trans rhetoric regurgitated from TERF circles

>>40120904
you automatically view and call intersex people "intersex patients" instead of people

anything you say after that has so little merit to me you might as well be a tranny at this point

you harm intersex rights more than someone bitching; you view intersex people terribly. you are like a self hating faggot or a faggot that actively brings all the other faggots down because youre retarded and trans-centric with your head up your own ass.

also nigga we are on 4chan

>>40120923
already saw it

you still will never be cis or intersex, perisex tranny retard

>>40120944
why are you so mad? nobody is attacking or invalidating you, I'm just trying to discuss the nuances of being intersex and our definitions of biological sex

>>40120921
"scarlett" is so deep in the intersex medicalization brain tranny-centric hivemind rot that they auto pilot to referring to intersex people as "intersex patients" in a context that is not even medical

>>40111482
>>40111279

>>40120955
what you are doing is inherently intersexist, pathologizing, and invalidating, you ignorant perisex moron

>>40120982
how so?

>>40120984
you are disingenuous as fuck with this question too

treating intersex experiences as a medical condition/pathologizing them so that you can opt trannies into an experience they do not have. that is how. you disingenuous fuck.

>>40121011
but I'm not doing that, all I did was pose a question

>>40120984
Well if you’d listen you’d understand that although there are biological features that are deemed intersex, there isn’t actually a hard reason why, doctors subjectively decided those traits didn’t constitute male/female and pathologized and medicalized these benign variations. So the definition of intersex is something like “possessing traits that are CONSIDERED to make someone not fully male or female” but not in a sense of objective biological androgyny, but rather in the context of this medicalization and pathologization. So you can’t come in and say “trannyism is intersex because its biologically neither male nor female” because doctors don’t think a brain variation casts aspersions on one’s sex, and therefore make little effort to correct it. Intersex doesn’t mean “neither male or female objectively biologically” it means “neither male or female subjectively and oppressed for it”

>>40121014
you are literally treating intersex experiences as a medical condition/pathologizing them so that you can opt trannies into an experience they do not have. that is inherently intersex. that IS what youre doing. you are framing it as "tehe im just asking innocent questions" because you are a morally defunct disingenuous liar of a person. probably why youre a tranny; you like to deceive and dont feel bad about it. maybe you even deceived yourself and have gone absolute full retard.

>>40121053
>there isn’t actually a hard reason why
really? so, there's no kind of... criteria or material testing, or defined standards for this? I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that
>doctors don’t think a brain variation casts aspersions on one’s sex
I don't know what you could possibly mean by that

we came up with the words sex, male, and female to describe observations of a bimodal system of reproduction and morphology, and something being in between those groupings being referred to as intersex is similarly a soft and human constructed definition but rooted in real measurements of biological traits - so if you on this basis alone for some reason reject that neurological traits which correspond to that same pattern are intersex, why do you not reject the intersex label itself entirely?

this is what I mean about contradicting yourself, and it's why this kind of self-defeating logic is so common in TERF and other religious groups' rhetoric: it's a faith-based exercise in self-victimization predicated on fictional or unfalsifiable claims which "sound good" but don't actually hold up to a reasoned examination, and always have some kind of outside or "the bad ones" grouping to blame

>>40121080
where did I do any of those things?

>>40120904
It’s strangely impressive and somewhat concerning that they’re still going at it to be real. Was kind of expecting them to have grown tired of it by now

>>40120755
But you are wrong though. Your deformation is caused by generations of incest and is definitely not healthy nor normal.
Your parents shouldn't have been allowed to breed at all

>>40120914
you are spamming with your liddle mutant meltie because you want to be some special little nlog just because an indian coughed into your blood sample or shit

>>40120955
They just want to lash out at the world it seems. They seem really emotional, for honestly something that's not directly going to affect them since this is just talk on a Russian carpet weaving forum.

As for where I specifically draw the line. I look at it as stated a few times, through the lens of medical essentialism and will continue to see them as two specific issues until such time it's fully revised and peer ratified. A few articles here or there are meaningless until there is wide spread consensus. I have nothing against trans folks specifically, other than a few people that have no medical basis under the current rules looking to claim an intersex trait. That's where my issue really comes in. It feels like grasping at straws to justify to others and themselves as a "look it's not my fault!" Again when they never needed to in the first place.

In a weird way I actually like the ways of antiquity where eunuchs were split into two categories : by right, or by man. In social standing there was not really much of a difference. But the medical care we receive, and when we receive it differs quite substantially.

Obviously there are also social stigmas associated with both I don't want to get into beyond the generics. In my case there was nothing I could do to hide things. I had gyno, people gave me hell for it. I was surgically altered without my consent or knowledge, and even my own parents lied wholesale to me for years about my situation.

I don't feel like my situation lines up with a trans persons situation, and I don't feel like theirs aligns with mine. Their body going through natural progression is going to follow the general development for their assigned sex and they don't want it. Where as mine did weird things, and diverged from what it should have and what I was supposed to expect.
Again with my both sides of the same coin analogy. The head is not the tail, and vise versa.

>>40121053
there is also greater divide and nuance too in how people with external/apparent intersex variations are treated and experience the world vs those who have variations that still make them appear passably/typically male female by most standards

a lot of medical history involves doctors trying to classify "pseudo hermaphrodites" from "true hermaphrodites" and even things like only classifying CAH as intersex if the external genitals were ambiguous or unaltered; otherwise it is just "an endocrine disorder to be managed medically, not intersex", etc.

there are subsets of us who have obvious ambiguity that face vastly different experiences to those who do not. i do not have an actual name for this but i wish i did, because i do not feel kinship with someone who looks like a typical female but has ovarian cysts and gets an intersex pass card based on that alone, or who has their CAH under control because they have to for health and therefore never virilized much, or someone who has hypospadias and gets an intersex pass card, or XXY but basically normal body, etc.

if they do not have to try to hide their body and "pass" as one of the binary sexes in spite of their body, i do not feel kinship with them, no matter what "clinical reason" they present as "technically intersex"

i feel kinship with people who look like freaks and have to hide it. thats it. change the words all you want. most trannies aren't "freaks" bodily until they *make* themself that with HRT/surgery/etc. they had to hide their feelings, they did not have to hide their body. these are so vastly fucking different i am going to lose my fucking mind if another tranny or coping woman tries to say we're kin.

>>40121115
Okay so let me try with an example.

Here is billy. Billy has a penis, prostate, and ovaries. Doctors say that a male cannot have ovaries, so they forcibly sterilize billy to make him more “male-like”, and assign him male. The problem here doesn’t begin with the assignment and nonconsensual surgery, these actions have their root in an arbitrary definition of male and female that does not comport with the reality of billy’s existence. So rather than change the framework of sex to accommodate billy, they are changing billy to match the framework. So what we are rejecting is this surgical intervention and assignment on one hand, but also the root issue that billy can be male with ovaries or female with a penis, were it not for these arbitrary “rules” of sex. Saying “billy has ovariosis and is therefore intersex” is missing the point somewhat.

>>40121132
its because you dont actually perceive me as i am

i just talk like this. i have always had a very aggressive speech style. i grew up around a lot of conflict and aggression in "the hood" etc. i just talk this way. seemingly bothers you guys (primarily those of you i think are stupid, coincidentally!) a lot too, is funny.

>>40121171
>It feels like grasping at straws to justify to others and themselves as a "look it's not my fault!"
but who is doing this? why is that even a problem, even if someone is?

>I was surgically altered without my consent or knowledge
that's shitty and shouldn't be the norm, and lines of questioning like mine are specifically aimed at better understanding and reducing that kind of mistreatment, not forcing anything on "real" intersex people (which you can't provide any material basis to say trans people aren't) or taking anything away from you

>Their body going through natural progression is going to follow the general development for their assigned sex and they don't want it. Where as mine did weird things, and diverged from what it should have and what I was supposed to expect.
but what's the actual difference between those two? if for whatever reason in someone's brain they feel like their body diverged or there is some kind of mismatch, how is that materially distinct from other sex traits not aligning with internal or personal expectations and those of the outside world at the places where those areas intersect or interface?

>>40121192
you didn't address what I said, just rephrased your rhetoric; why do you not reject the intersex label entirely unless you are specifically attempting to brand it as simply being victims of prescriptive biological sex standards and compulsory medical conformity to those standards? (and hilariously, as you walk yourself closer to the point of my original question, how is that actually different from being trans?)

>>40121115
>to describe observations of a bimodal system of reproduction and morphology
no such thing. bimodal doesn't describe the system. The system is two types of cells(gametes), sex refers to the mechanism of reproduction.

>>40121171
>In social standing there was not really much of a difference.

not true, very often the man-made eunuch was forbidden from sex and marriage while the natural-born eunuch was allowed sex and marriage.

also: ur retarded and call intersex people patients instead of people. sooo ignorant about anything you try to give a little talky walky about on this mongolian basket fucking forum.

>>40121179
>you have a deformed karyotype are sterile for life and have nonfunctioning genitalia.. but youre not le tru intersex because you dont look like a dysgenic jew or something
why do you make being ugly your entire personality?

>>40121240
lol
read a book

>>40121200
>a nigga who speaks tumblrspeak is sperging on chan and larping as intersex
not surprising

>>40121221
>why do you not reject the intersex label entirely unless you are specifically attempting to brand it as simply being victims of prescriptive biological sex standards and compulsory medical conformity to those standards?
You asked for a definition of the label. The purpose of the label is mainly for activism and community purposes. A purpose not served by the inclusion of trans people, which strongly disrupts our activism and communities. You are not making a strong case we should stop using the label.

>>40121253
I have read books on the subject. I challenge you to name me the book you read as a source for your statement that sex is a bimodal system of reproduction. You can't because you got it from twitter or reddit.

If you don't reply with the citation from the book then you admit I'm right.

>>40121284
>You asked for a definition of the label.
and you didn't provide one, just waxed philosophical over the nature of sex and victimhood...
>You are not making a strong case we should stop using the label.
what would possess you to conclude that I would making a case for anything like that?

>>40121298
>sex is a bimodal system of reproduction
is not what I said

>>40121307
You didn't reply with the citation from the book so you admit I'm right and that you got it from twitter or reddit. Everyone in this thread is a witness now.

>>40121200
>you don’t actually perceive me as I am
I perceive you as you are on my screen similarly to how you perceive me as I am on yours.
>seemingly bothers you guys
Being bothered or weirded out by someone who is attacking everyone on sight isn’t that strange. Your behaviour and paranoia goes far beyond what I think most people would categorise as a mere matter of aggressive speech style

>>40121307
Yeah okay long story short you can’t just fabricate an intersex identity to justify your gender to yourself you’ll just have to accept that you made a choice and live with it. Isn’t that what you tell detrannies?

>>40121369
ooh, there it is! the literal terf rhetoric lol

>>40121251
i don't look like a jew and am generally considered attractive by others and by most cultural norms. i just have atypical genitals (which still function for sexual activities despite what youre saying), reproductive organs, hormones, etc. that make me look very obviously mixed sex in all ways unless altered/hidden. my bones/features/etc. are considered traditionally attractive, but sexually ambiguous or contradictory in some instances unless i put in effort to "pass" as one or the other--though i will be seen as some sort of "gay" version of either.


>>40121267
i dont have a tumblr

>>40121369
Dont detrannies just say they were 40 yo toddlers and le groomed or something and arent a comparable thing in this discussion at all? Why'd you even bring them up? Are you this much of a seethint retard?

>>40121369
u see why i just call them a nigger faggot copelord and move on now

talking to a wall? funner to throw eggs at it

>>40121284
BASED BASED BASED

>>40121400
>black calling everybody niggers because its niggarage activated
Comedy

>>40121221
I can't answer your question in a way that's going to give you sufficient senses of clarity since you don't seem to actually be postulating anything other than a gotcha, where in no matter how much I clarify you will always have the next "but why" lined up.
But I would like to ask you a question in return of your seeming position if they are the same:
Am I trans gender? I believe that I am a man. I was assigned a male role at birth, raised accordingly, and for the most part treated as such during my youth. My business cards, my office door, my stationary all say Mr. I consider myself gay, because I heavily prefer men. I'm on cross sex hormones, because testosterone does dick all for me and just gets converted to estrogen anyway once it builds up. Do I embrace my feminine side? Sure I like women's clothes, women's hair cuts, and I don't bother getting mad or correcting people that call me miss anymore.
But doesn't that just make me a feminine gay man and not a woman? Or is feeling like a woman trapped in a man's body, or man trapped inside of a woman's body no longer a requirement?

This also is not rhetorical, it's something I talk about with people I trust on occassion because it's honestly a perplexing question to me. The old to be or not to be...sort of.

>>40121307
you are an insecure disingenuous faggot and will never be cis nor intersex

>>40121423
i never said i was black

>>40121442
Do you just say three things?
>REEEEEEEEE i will kill you shit on you thats surely not my fetish but i will say it every time my brain overheats from thinking
>i am so opressed wah wah
>ywnb le wombyn or our glorious deformed angelic freaks or something

>>40121476
im gonna poop on ur feet

>>40121440
I asked several questions, the very first of which has some pretty significant weight for whether or not the problem you're suggesting exists is actually rooted in evidence vs being entirely rhetorical... I'm saying nobody is robbing you of anything or denying your experience by suggesting that being trans is a kind of intersex condition, and that is the entirety of my "postulation"
>if they are the same
is not what I'm suggesting, either, and that's a blatant misread

>Am I trans gender?
I couldn't say, and I honestly think a big part of your whole line of questioning is problematically oriented around some very misleading language and tropes around gender roles (as "transsexual" is out of favor and people can be "transgender" but not "transsexual" or vice versa if read more literally, which turns the whole black and white set of definitions on its head and exposes two dimensions of traits that are obviously related and influence each other while being separate), but taken at its most direct: the clinical and social definitions of your AGAB being different from your expressed or experienced gender (as a contextually emergent social role stemming from sexually dimorphic traits) and/or taking steps to adjust these things (socially, physically, whatever) puts you under the "trans umbrella" (another kind of misnomer that specifically motivates my original question and aim, which is to consider these things as both separate and related manifestations of or simply sets of consequences following what would most effectively be understood as intersex conditions)

Good night to the other chill intersex posters in here and good night to the chill visitors. I’m guessing the thread will be gone when I wake up but aside from the yelling in here it was fun to meet someone a little more like myself

>>40121542
tl;dr plus you will never be cis nor intersex plus youre a tranny plus ur mom is black

>>40121567
see >>40120868

>>40121572
you first, perisex faggot colonizer

>>40121656
holy shit lol

>>40121656
>yes gpt please suck me off more please tell me how my opponent is stupid ugly and retarded please im such a good goy

>>40121542
Mm sorry to rudely butt in with a quick thought and then leave but I couldnt help but read. Regarding intersex people being put under the trans umbrella many trans people dislike it when intersex people who havent put any effort into transitioning claim to be trans in my experience. So the idea that we arent trans without declaring ourselves as such and putting effort into it often comes from both sides
Anyway sorry again, hope you both sleep well when you get to it :)

>>40121666
enjoy all your trans women spaces being overtaken by afab vaginas, idiot

>>40121701
i ran the post through the equivalent of google translate to convert retardese to normal english
seethe about it harder

>>40121711
>the idea that we arent trans without declaring ourselves as such and putting effort into it often comes from both sides
oh totally, and this is all really like soft and flexible stuff because we're talking about human social custom and language (big part of why everyone gets so precious and touchy about it, cis people the most)

this is kind of why I'm so focused on making as few assumptions as possible and defining these things very clearly (not necessarily with excess precision) in concrete and useful ways that aren't so subjective and interpretive, I think that's for the best for everyone to be fairly recognized and given access to support if they need or want it as well as not being subject to some really barbaric shit that is still alarmingly commonplace

>>40121727
project harder

>>40121542
The big question you framed about who is actually doing this is easily searchable yourself.

Go to Reddit. Go to forums for intersex people. Every day there are people with no actual symptoms that align with an intersex trait post asking "am I intersex" because I'm MTF, or GNC, or some variation of that. They have no hormonal imbalance, they have no karyotyping done, they have no suggestions from doctors, they have no visible outward signs that fit the current commonly accepted medical criteria.

It's a small group of people but it feels very invalidating to me. When these are usually spaces set up to help us out find resources, chat with other people with the same experiences. It absolutely is a thing that happens. I partially know some of this is a knee jerk reaction on my part due to my feelings on the matter and they have soured recently where it seems as though the media, laws, governance only seem to care about transgender rights while bushing me aside or using intersex as an ace in the hole against GAC bans. It often feels like we have no allies.

Lastly unlike the other person, I'm fine with some medical wiggle room here. A lot of women and trans men with PCOS end up posting in intersex forums, it's a good resource for them I see nothing wrong with that even though they are not a sex chromosome outlier, or protein deficient person that fits that hard line catagory because the care is going to line up, but I still think they fall short of the intersex label.

>>40121746
have fun crying when youre surrounded by a bunch of cis women talking about their "HRT" in the form of an estrogen IUD and how that makes them technically trans since its for their endometriosis, shit for brains copelord

>>40121656
Please please stop using chat gpt to formulate your opinions for you.

>>40121774
>It's a small group of people but it feels very invalidating to me.
but why? how is that in any way invalidating to you, the concrete biological makeup you represent, or your subjective lived experience? I just don't see the actual harm in people seeking clarity with some unfortunately ambiguous or nebulous terminology, even if they're wrong... are you unable to access support or are you crowded out in some way you're not explaining?

>but I still think they fall short of the intersex label
okay and I think this is getting at the crux of what I'd like to understand: why?

>>40096857
why do trans like to "Flag plant" on every idea.

>>40121774
>Every day there are people with no actual symptoms that align with an intersex trait post asking "am I intersex" because I'm MTF, or GNC, or some variation of that. They have no hormonal imbalance, they have no karyotyping done, they have no suggestions from doctors, they have no visible outward signs that fit the current commonly accepted medical criteria.

literally:
>>40111046
>started the chain of events was looking at the r/intersex subreddit recent posts and seeing a thread that's a person saying they and their BF were sure this afab was intersex, they identified as it for the last 2 years, etc. and just got their test results for hormone labs and imaging back and there is literally nothing abnormal, they are not intersex in any form.
>when asked why they thought they were intersex, they said because it explained so much of how they felt, and because they "look androgynous without makeup on", have "wide shoulders", and other such cope bullshit.
>and the response in the comments wasnt to tell them theyre a coping tranny, it was to validate them as still probably intersex, and even suggest that because the "intersex people get lied to!!!" trop exiss to them, suggest that the patient portal and doctor were lying to them today, in 2025.

https://www.reddit.com/r/intersex/comments/1ldvyla/found_out_i_am_not_intersex_and_im_a_little_upset/

also one of the fucking MODERATORS OF THAT SUBREDDIT is not even diagnosed with anything, not even PCOS, but is an afab FTM:
https://www.reddit.com/r/intersex/comments/1leqsd9/sharing_some_joy_endocrinologist_took_me_seriously/

but NO gatekeeping is allowed in these spaces or else youre suuuuuper evil and an alt right bigot

>>40121791
please stop pathologizing intersex people by referring to intersex people as "patients" instead of "people" in completely nonmedical contexts, and grow a brain, you sheep ass bitch

I hope you eventually learn that your "AI" is just a dirty mirror feeding you back what you put into it to keep you engaged

>>40121805
>are you crowded out in some way you're not explaining?

your colonizing tranny ass has overtaken and crowded out any non-trans centric discussion in this very intersex space you blind fucking moron

>>40121837
Waow nonnie, its reddit
If that makes your little trannyseethe mind happier err slash detrans also has an intersex larper as a mod as well as several "desisters" (wombyn who suffered the trauma of a bad haircut)

>>40121856
i replied to someone specifically referencing reddit, you seething retard

>>40121855
nobody did anything to prevent discussion of intersex issues itt

>>40121873
You were the one that referenced leddit and muh discord in the first place KEK

>>40121878
you have made it into a trans centric space since the very first post, because you are insecure and selfish.

>>40121805
I am unable to access support adequately in a reasonable to me manner. Despite last I checked intersex persons put numbering trans gender persons, there are very few places that actually specialise in intersex variations and their care and we always get hodge-podge care from an endo, an obgyn, men's health GPs and so on. It also means that people do treat me poorly in a healthy care setting if I'm not seeing one of my normal care teams.

Which means that I end up seeing an obgyn that specialises in transgender care. This means month long back logs, appointments are a hassle, packed, and god forbid you get bumped it could be months before you get in again. It feels like I do in fact play second fiddle here, and I have to wade through crazy protestors outside of the clinic every time...when it would be much easier if I could just go to a medical university or something.

My insurance did not cover my estrogen or progesterone initially, and did not understand that I'm not transitioning, and this isn't for GAC, but so my body doesn't literally eat it's own bones and force me into depression that's hard to tunnel out of. It's not expensive mind you but more the principal of it being denied because it's an "off label" use.

>>40121890
>the only social media i use is 4chan therefore im superior because i dont search and use every corner of the internet for the few scraps of community/resources that exist for people like me!

once again: kill yourself

>>40121906
you're absolutely describing some fucked up shit that I think should change, like we should treat people better and not be gatekeeping care or projecting assumptions in these matters... but how or why is your inability to access support or perceived feeling of being "second" the fault of trans people existing any more than it is the fault of cis people for existing? this is what I mean about the self-victimization deal being the only aspect of the label you're waving around here

you're not supporting your point, just highlighting exactly why mine is so important in real-world material terms regarding quality of life

I did try asking this earlier and it went un-answered, here: >>40099481

>>40121942
your points are dogshit and harm intersex advocacy

enjoy your afab trans women, perisex retard

>>40121954
see >>40120868

>>40121965
see
>>40121589

and additionally: just a reminder to enjoy your AFAB trans women who are on "HRT" so they dont get pregnant becoming the majority in your trans women communities

>>40121990
why are you so hateful?

>>40121993
because you are an intersexist asshole and deserve to be shitted on til you stop hurting and colonizing communities you are not part of due to your own insecurity fueled selfish entitlement

>>40121990
Listen at first i was on your side but you're just a retarded coaler that makes me want to genocide your whole kind please die

>>40122009
nah think i'll live

>>40121942
Look man, I just want one place for me okay? I don't want to have to share it with biological men. I don't want to share it with biological women. I don't want to share it with trans people. I just want some place that cares about me and people like me. Why is that too much to ask?

>>40122025
this is really sad, I was kind of hoping to challenge my own assumptions here but you're proving me right by refusing or being unable to answer questions about the material issues here and instead falling back to exactly the self-victimization thing I'm cautioning against

>>40122048
youve gotten answers your "ur refusing to answer me omg!!" bullshit is a manipulation tactic/lie

you are genuinely one of the worst type of people i encounter; irredeemable narcissistic, lying garbage that will run you around in circles over word salad while stroking their dick about how smart they are

legitimate you are an actual scumbag of a mind and need a parent to fucking guide you ASAP

>>40122090
>projecting this hard

>>40122025
BECAUSE REEEE THAT RELIES ON ACKNOWLEDING BIOLOGICAL SEX AND THEN PEOPLE WILL KNOW IM A MAN REEEEEEEEEE NO SEX OBSERVATIONS ALLOWED REEEEEEE IM NOT A MALE IM NOT A MALE IM NOT A MALE SEX ISNT REAL!!!!!!!

im having a blast btw

>>40122106
be inescapably male bodied, born, and raised harder, perisex copelord

>>40122048
Look man, to make an analogy.
I prefer EFI 80s/90s Japanese cars with turbos. I'm not joining a Ford model T forum space and going to ask a whole bunch of questions and ask if they apply to my car. I'm not going to post about my wastegate chatter in their thread about pouring new babit bearings. This is why the seperate spaces exist. They don't want to sort through my posts and I don't want to sort through theirs.

>>40122166
your "analogy" only comes close to sort of addressing a version of one aspect of the issue you're describing here, and doesn't even approach the same galaxy as my actual question... I understand that you feel that you should have a separate space to discuss these things, but you're not pointing to any material reasoning why and simply projecting your unstated dichotomy onto fucking cars (like this is no better than a food analogy jesus christ come on)

and again, this is the really important bit: why or how is it the fault of trans people, whether by simply existing or either being referred to as or claiming to be intersex, that you can't access support?

>>40122213
I'm just not going to play by your game anymore. Think of it wat you will, but I'm giving up, and giving up on you.

>>40122329
I'm not the one playing games, I just wanted a fucking answer to a relatively straightforward question lmao

thanks for proving my assumptions tragically correct!

>>40122213
seethe and cope harder, dysphoric perisex retard

>>40122329
told yall

>>40099117
>>40121400

M. Lefort (1799 - 1864).
Marie Madeleine was raised as a girl. At the age of sixteen, she developed a moustache and whiskers, and she decided to dress as a man.

The same year, 1815, Lefort was presented at the Paris Faculté de Medicine, and examined by several renowned doctors. A commission was appointed to determine her sex. Two experts, François Chaussier, obstetrician, and Philippe Petit-Radel, surgeon, declared that she was a malformed male, but Pierre Béclard, professor of anatomy, insisted that he was a female but with a hypertrophied clitoris, a strong voice and a beard.

At the age of nineteen, Lefort decided that psychologically he was a man. He then avoided the attentions of authorities and journalists despite seeking medical attention a few times, until 1864 when as a man with a long grey beard he was admitted as a patient to the Hotel Dieu de Paris. He was treated for pleurisy, but died shortly from the disease. An autopsy revealed that he had all the 'essential organs of a woman'

Pierre Béclard. Bulletins de la Faculté, 1815: 273.
C.J.S. Thompson. The Mysteries of Sex: Women Who Posed as Men and Men Who Impersonated Women London: Hutchinson. 1938. New York: Causeway Books. New York: Dorset Press, 1993: 17.
AliceDomurat Dreger. Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex. Cambridge, Ma, Harvard University Press. 2000: 54, 55, 56, 57.
____________________________________________________________

Despite a clear decision by Lefort to live as a man, all the medical accounts refer to him as Marie Madeleine and none give his male name, nor any details of what he did all his life. How did he live? Did he marry? Nothing is said.
https://zagria.blogspot.com/2011/01/m-lefort-1799-1864.html

>>40123039
fuck i forgot the pic

Hermaphrodite is a series of photographs of a young intersex person, who had a male build and stature and may have been assigned female or self-identified as female, taken by the French photographer Nadar (real name Gaspard-Félix Tournachon) in 1860. Possibly commissioned by Armand Trousseau, the nine photographs have been described as "probably the first medical photo-illustrations of a patient with intersex genitalia".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite_(Nadar)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VeLOIxiG4c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke0fPkpvQXU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va_aUUBZMJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2z4hpMHRh0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gG9KPm5Vk4

https://anunnakiray.com/2016/03/18/eight-names-for-the-same-thing-penis-phallus-clitoris-phaloclitoris-micropenis-microphalus-clitoramegaly-and-pseudo-penis/

this basically what trannies doin to intersex communities btw:
https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths

>>40123088
schizo

>>40123278
Fanatics do all the organizational work, initially just on behalf of geeks: out of generosity, and to enjoy a geeky subsociety. They put on events, build websites, tape up publicity fliers, and deal with accountants. Mops just passively soak up the good stuff. You may even have to push them around the floor; they have to be led to the drink. At best you can charge them admission or a subscription fee, but they’ll inevitably argue that this is wrong because capitalism is evil, and also because they forgot their wallet.

Mops also dilute the culture. The New Thing, although attractive, is more intense and weird and complicated than mops would prefer. Their favorite songs are the ones that are least the New Thing, and more like other, popular things. Some creators oblige with less radical, friendlier, simpler creations.

Mops relate to each other in “normal” ways, like people do on TV, which the fanatics find repellent. During intermission, geeks want to talk about the New Thing, but mops blather about sportsball and celebrities. Also, the mops also seem increasingly entitled, treating the fanatics as service workers.

Fanatics may be generous, but they signed up to support geeks, not mops. At this point, they may all quit, and the subculture collapses.

>>40123278
>>40123320
Unless sociopaths show up. A subculture at this stage is ripe for exploitation. The creators generate cultural capital, i.e. cool. The fanatics generate social capital: a network of relationships—strong ones among the geeks, and weaker but numerous ones with mops. The mops, when properly squeezed, produce liquid capital, i.e. money. None of those groups have any clue about how to extract and manipulate any of those forms of capital.

The sociopaths quickly become best friends with selected creators. They dress just like the creators—only better. They talk just like the creators—only smoother. They may even do some creating—competently, if not creatively. Geeks may not be completely fooled, but they also are clueless about what the sociopaths are up to.

Mops are fooled. They don’t care so much about details, and the sociopaths look to them like creators, only better. Sociopaths become the coolest kids in the room, demoting the creators. At this stage, they take their pick of the best-looking mops to sleep with. They’ve extracted the cultural capital.

>>40120969
i don't fully agree with you but i want to say i respect the dedication

During an intersex thread, intersex people want to talk about being intersex and intersex topics, but trannies blather about tranny shit and copes about trannies being intersex.

>>40123320
>>40123333
>slopdumping
lmao

>>40123408
>illiterate perisex tranny coping
lmao

>>40123320
>>40123333
The sociopaths also work out how to monetize mops—which the fanatics were never good at. With better publicity materials, the addition of a light show, and new, more crowd-friendly product, admission fees go up tenfold, and mops are willing to pay. Somehow, not much of the money goes to creators. However, more of them do get enough to go full-time, which means there’s more product to sell.

The sociopaths also hire some of the fanatics as actual service workers. They resent it, but at least they too get to work full-time on the New Thing, which they still love, even in the Lite version. The rest of the fanatics get pushed out, or leave in disgust, broken-hearted.

The death of cool—unless…
After a couple years, the cool is all used up: partly because the New Thing is no longer new, and partly because it was diluted into New Lite, which is inherently uncool. As the mops dwindle, the sociopaths loot whatever value is left, and move on to the next exploit. They leave behind only wreckage: devastated geeks who still have no idea what happened to their wonderful New Thing and the wonderful friendships they formed around it. (Often the geeks all end up hating each other, due first to the stress of supporting mops, and later due to sociopath divide-and-conquer manipulation tactics.)

Unless some of the creators are geniuses. If they can give the New Thing genuine mass appeal, they can ascend into superstardom. The subculture will reorganize around them, into a much more durable form. I won’t go into that in there. I will point out that this almost never happens without sociopaths. An ambitious creator may know they have mass-appeal genius, and could be a star, but very rarely do they know how to get from here to there.

>>40123461
So what is to be done?

This is a geek question. The subculture lifecycle is a problem only from a geek perspective. As far as mops are concerned, it provides reliable, low-cost waves of novelty entertainment and casual social relationships. As far as sociopaths are concerned, it generates easily-exploited pools of prestige, sex, power, and money.

From a utilitarian point of view, mops hugely outnumber geeks, so in terms of total social value, it’s all good. Can’t make omelettes without breaking some eggheads.

So what is to be done?

Geeks can refuse to admit mops. In fact, successful subcultures always do create costly barriers to entry, to keep out the uncommitted.6 In the heyday of subcultures, those were called poseurs.7 Mop exclusion keeps the subculture comfortable for geeks, but severely limits its potential. Often there’s a struggle between geeks who like their cozy little club as it is, and geeks who want a shot at greatness—for themselves, or the group, or the New Thing. In any case, subculture boundaries are always porous, and if the New Thing is cool enough, mops will get in regardless.

The optimal mop:geek ratio is maybe 6:1. At that ratio, the mops provide more energy than they consume. A ratio above about 10:1 becomes unworkable; it’s a recipe for burnout among supporting fanatics. Ideally, the ratio could be controlled. I think few subcultures understand this imperative, and I’m not sure how it could be done even if one did understand. Mops move in herds. Usually either there are only a few, or their numbers quickly grow too large.

>>40123473
Sociopaths only show up if there’s enough mops to exploit, so excluding (or limiting) mops is a strategy for excluding sociopaths. Some subcultures do understand this, and succeed with it.

Alternatively, you could recognize sociopaths and eject them. Geeks may be pretty good at the recognizing, but are lousy at the ejecting. Mops don’t recognize sociopaths, and anyway don’t care. Mops have little investment in the subculture, and can just walk away when sociopaths ruin it. By the time sociopaths show up, mops are numerically most of the subculture. Sociopaths manipulate the mops, and it’s hard for the geeks to overrule an overwhelming majority.

Anyway, horribly, geeks need sociopaths—if the New Thing is ever going to be more than a geeky hobby, or a brief fad that collapses under the weight of the mop invasion.

So what is to be done?

Be slightly evil
The subcultural mode mostly ended around 2000. There still are subcultures, new ones all the time, but they no longer have the cultural and social force they used to. The “classical model” of subcultures no longer works, for the reasons given here, plus others I’ll describe in upcoming writing. I don’t think it can be rescued.

However, the fluid mode—my hoped-for future—resembles the subcultural mode in many ways. The same social dynamics may play out, unless there is a powerful antidote.

A slogan of Rao’s may point the way: Be slightly evil. Or: geeks need to learn and use some of the sociopaths’ tricks. Then geeks can capture more of the value they create (and get better at ejecting true sociopaths).

Welp...I guess I'm pretty much done with this. It was a novel effort, but I get more out of posting my buthole and tits elsewhere.

>>40123492
ok gooner that refers to intersex people as "patients" instead of people in completely nonmedical contexts where there is zero reason not to call them people
go post ur butthole online, that is clearly the level of thinking that is fit for your mental capabilities

im evil nigga now

ok im normal again

however if another coping perisex tranny posts in this thread....... i may turn evil again........

The Co-optation of Intersex Discourse: How Trans Influence Dilutes and Redirects
Intersex discourse once carried sharp clarity—medical reality, lived experience, systemic harm. Between the 1990s and early 2010s, it grew steadily. Then it started unraveling. Why?

One key reason—among others—is that whenever intersex conversations begin to gain power or cultural attention, they get overtaken by outsiders, particularly some trans people who seek to reframe intersex language and identity around trans experiences. This takeover shifts the focus away from intersex realities toward trans-centric narratives. Once this happens, the core intersex discourse begins to rot from within. By the mid-2010s, many intersex advocates realized that the spaces were no longer theirs.

These outsiders come in two common forms: mops and sociopaths. Among the mops, a significant number are trans people who, intentionally or not, dilute intersex issues by framing them primarily through gender identity lenses, rather than intersex-specific medical and social realities. This analysis builds on Venkatesh Rao’s Gervais Principle, originally about office politics, but it maps well to the cultural power shifts in intersex spaces.

>>40123731
The Beginning: A Real Scene
Before there’s a movement, there’s a scene—a small group of intersex people in dialogue with each other. They share histories of medical trauma, develop shared terminology, and fight erasure. They challenge silence with lived truth.

Eventually, that scene pulls in more intersex people who commit as advocates—those actively building educational resources, organizing support, and developing community spaces.

Together, these advocates form the backbone of the scene. They’re obsessed with nuance—medical details, legal implications, and systemic harm.

If the scene remains tightly connected, it stays coherent. But as visibility grows, it attracts mops—including many trans people who are drawn to intersex discourse because it challenges binaries or aligns with broader gender discussions. Many of these mops don’t share the intersex lived experience but begin to reframe the conversation around gender identity rather than intersex realities.

At first, advocates welcome the attention. More visibility can mean more resources and reach. But this is where dilution starts.

>>40123744
The Mop Invasion: Trans Narratives Take Center Stage
Advocates want to share their truth, and at first, the mops affirm that they’re being heard. But as mop numbers swell, the center shifts. Advocates keep doing the heavy lifting: organizing events, building archives, developing educational tools.

Meanwhile, many trans mops absorb intersex language and imagery but refocus it on transgender identity issues: “Intersex is a spectrum of gender,” or “Intersex shows that gender is fluid,” statements which sidestep the realities of medical harm and human rights struggles specific to intersex bodies.

Instead of centering intersex medical trauma, the discourse gets turned into a battleground for gender identity debates. Questions like, “Can I claim intersex as a gender identity?” or “Does intersex mean you can be trans?” dominate conversations—often drowning out the voices of intersex people themselves.

In these spaces, intersex advocates find themselves sidelined, treated like service providers to identity politics. Many feel exhausted, watching their lived experiences be reframed to fit transgender-centric agendas.

>>40123765
The Sociopath Invasion
At this point, sociopaths arrive—individuals or groups who see the co-opted discourse as an opportunity to gain status, funding, or influence. Some claim intersex identity opportunistically or act as trans allies who prioritize trans issues over intersex rights.

They speak the language fluently but prioritize narrative control, transgender visibility, and transgender issues over authentic intersex advocacy. They charm the mops and overshadow the advocates.

A handful of intersex advocates get recruited as labor under these structures, but many others are pushed out or give up in frustration.

Collapse or Reclamation
Eventually, the discourse loses coherence. “Intersex” becomes a vague term used to support trans identities or political agendas, rather than a medical and social justice issue grounded in lived intersex experience.

Intersex people are left fractured and disillusioned, wondering where the real intersex people went.

Reclaiming the discourse requires intersex voices who can speak both truth and wield strategic power—combining authentic experience with media savvy and narrative control. This rarely happens without adopting some of the tools used by the sociopaths and navigating the challenging dynamics within trans and intersex communities.

>>40123789
Resistance and Strategy
So what is to be done?

This is the question for intersex advocates. While many trans people are genuine allies, the reality of how trans-centered narratives have overshadowed intersex issues can’t be ignored.

Some intersex communities build boundaries—requiring lived experience, focusing on medical realities, and creating safe, intersex-only spaces. This gatekeeping isn’t about exclusion, but about survival.

Still, boundaries are porous. Mops, seeking affirmation or visibility, often claim they are intersex themselves. Managing the balance between advocates and mops is critical: too many mops cause burnout; too few mean invisibility.

Sociopaths only appear when mops provide an exploitable audience. So limiting mop numbers or redirecting discourse back to intersex realities can prevent exploitation.

Advocates must also develop media and organizational skills to recognize and resist manipulative actors—both among mops and sociopaths.

>>40123820
The Way Forward: Be Slightly Evil / Be Slightly Transphobic
The classical intersex advocacy model no longer works in a landscape where trans narratives have so much cultural traction.

Rao’s advice applies here: Be slightly evil. Intersex advocates must learn to wield power strategically—using visibility to protect authentic intersex narratives, employing tactics to defend meaning without succumbing to co-optation.

This approach isn’t about abandoning ethics; it’s about realistic defense against dilution and erasure.

By combining steadfast commitment to truth with strategic savvy, intersex advocates can hope to reclaim their spaces and maintain discourse integrity—even amid complex, trans-influenced dynamics.