is there proof that sexuality is determined at birth? itd make more sense for a sense of sexuality to develop during puberty rather than at birth wouldnt it? why would a newborn have an innate sexuality?

>>40118730 (OP)
Straight people and gay/lesbian people alike will have crushes on people even before puberty, like as little kids. And they always have crushes on either only boys or only girls.
I mean, maybe it's like "Is there any evidence height is determined from birth?" Babies don't have the height or sexuality they will as teens and adults, but it develops predictably. Doctors really can estimate your adult height.

>>40118730 (OP)
There may be twin studies about the effect where younger brothers are more likely to be gay, specifically where the twins are separated at birth. let me go and see anon and ill report back

One paper suggests yes, but I'll look for a systematic review
>The most consistent biodemographic correlate of sexual orientation in men is the number of older brothers (fraternal birth order). The mechanism underlying this effect remains unknown. In this article, I provide a direct test pitting prenatal against postnatal (e.g., social/rearing) mechanisms. Four samples of homosexual and heterosexual men (total n = 944), including one sample of men raised in nonbiological and blended families (e.g., raised with half- or step-siblings or as adoptees) were studied. Only biological older brothers, and not any other sibling characteristic, including nonbiological older brothers, predicted men’s sexual orientation, regardless of the amount of time reared with these siblings. These results strongly suggest a prenatal origin to the fraternal birth-order effect.
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0511152103
I can access it via my university but if you want a copy I can probably share it

>>40118730 (OP)
tbqh i think it's biologically determined but not from birth
sexuality can probably be changed but it'd require biologically intervening. i took hrt and it changed my attraction (still bisexual, just higher on kinsey.) heard similar stories from other trans people and if you really wanted to stretch it, bunch of stories from people who take exogenous hormones in general (birth control, roiders, etc.) where it changes their sexuality.

Why is it so important for you to need to believe being gay is a choice or learned along the way? Do you want gays forced into conversion therapy?

there's a recent paper about the statistics involved which suggests that there are issues with Blanchards papers on this, but some of the issues they raise are questionable. for example, in one of them they question whether counting hetersexual mtfs as "gay" for the purposes of the calculation is valid, which is somewhat subjective. even they agree that there is some contribution, but it's obviously not determined at birth, non older brother twin studies don't show a 100% overlap of sexuality in separated twins
sorry for effortposting /thread

>>40118769
heights probably a good comparison bc its predictable but not set in stone the moment you're out the womb
>>40118862
im a transf bisexual. saying its not determined at birth isn't the same as supporting conversion therapy

>>40119233
you do support conversion therapy though

>>40118730 (OP)
>for a sense of sexuality to develop during puberty
I've been masturbating and chasing girls since I was 8yrs old. Puberty just pushed it to overdrive and I learned to love cock as well.

>>40119254
Gender affirming care is not conversion therapy because trans women are not men. Hope this helps.

>>40119380
trans women are men so gender affirming care is in fact conversion therapy

>>40119403
if you think trans females are men regardless of hrt what converting is being done by giving them estrogen

>>40119427
They aren’t calling themselves men which is very bad because uhhh it just is ok?

>>40119427
converting their genitals to less functional, and really the conversion is their behavior
animals are castrated to make them more compliant to their owners

>>40119494
i think you're describing something that isnt the same as conversion therapy
is that rly why animals are castrated? i thought it was just to prevent reproduction

>>40118730 (OP)
Sexuality is fluid to some extent ,and is gained upon puberty when the sexual organs bekome funktional
It is influensed by sosialization and hormones
The idea that you're born and your sexuality is lokked in is an idea pushed by liberals for the purposes of gay akseptanse ,as its easier to get people (mainly Amerikans) on board with the idea that you're diskriminating against someone for how they were born ,like rasizm ,than the better and more korrekt argument that it just doesn't matter what someone's sexuality is

>>40119511
yes, animals are castrated to make them calmer and less aggressive
the real transition is behavioral control, nothing to do with changing gender

>>40119494
>muh genitals
Stop worrying about what other people do what their genitals and half your worries about this issue will go away
>behavior
Many trans people have emergent dysphoria, meaning they are already innately and behaviorally more like the opposite sex. There is nothing to “convert” or change except the body. And even then, people are free to behave however they wish as long as it doesn’t harm anyone.
>castration
Anyone who calls GAC “castration”, “mutilation”, “sterilization” etc is arguing in bad faith.

>>40118730 (OP)
Practically everything is genetic. Only non genetic thing is physical trauma and consequences of physical trauma and even there genetics define how tough you are. PTSD is genetic too. Some people don't get it because their genetics make them more strong mentally, while others have weak wills and midns which is also defined by their genetics
Genes are a code, like literally like a computer code. Sexuality "develops" during puberty, but it develops from a code that's already present in you. It's like a procedurally generated game. It generates new things, even seemingly random but it's not true randomness, it's still based on a predetermined set of rules.

>>40119555
yes i understand what you're getting at
i dont believe comparing behavioural changes to conversion therapy is in good faith at all. one is something a million things affect (including hrt) while conversion therapy has always been focused more on repressing lgbt thoughts.
behavioural changes -> behavioural CONVERSION = CONVERSION therapy is a major stretch.

>>40118730 (OP)
There is compelling evidence that SOME of it is determined in eutero. Hilariously it's Blanchard.

Some of it is absolutely societal, and that's learned.

I think everyone can become a bottom if pushed hard enough but bottoms can’t become tops.

>>40121170
>anything I disagree with must be offered in bad faith
and this is why we can't really have a conversation

>>40119773
>Sexuality "develops" during puberty, but it develops from a code that's already present in you.
But like many things that do have a genetic component, the outcome won't always allign with expectations. Who's to say sexuality is 100% genetic and not some % based on past experiences before/during puberty?

>>40121581
no we cant have one because ur a stoopid chud

>>40121607
I'm literally as far left as possible. You making this about who I am, and not my actual arguments shows YOU are the one arguing in bad faith.

>>40121620
i gave arguments, in that post, and all your little chud self did is latch onto the part where i suspect you're arguing in bad faith and ignore the rest

>>40119233
That's not what I meant by the height thing. I think it's obvious that sexuality is baked in by the time they're little kids at least, and yeah I think sexuality is probably predictable from some factor observable at birth; we just don't know what it is.

>>40121644
the goal of transgenderism is to behaviorally pacify the gender non conforming because women fear them grouping together and organizing to rebel against their tyranny

>>40118730 (OP)
>why would a newborn have an innate sexuality?
why would a newborn be able to speak a language?
it's still an innate ability that develops naturally

>>40119773

Hey it's the biology police, here to correct you.

>Practically everything is genetic. Only non genetic thing is physical trauma and consequences of physical trauma and even there genetics define how tough you are. PTSD is genetic too.

This doesn't mean anything. If you understood the flow and purpose of dna, rna, proteins, amino acids, electro-nueronal signals etc. in the body you would realize that information flows too and from genes constantly, not just from 'trauma'. Also the purpose of genes is mostly to maintain your body through same cell reproduction. Otherwise structures like your spinal tract especially, would undergo dramatic mutations when information inevitably circles back to that part of the body. Central genetic dogma has been debunked many times lol. Hell even a common cold or viruses that target RNA debunk this idea that genes decide everything.

>predetermined set of rules.

Ironically, this is correct but not for the reasons you mentioned since our decisions effect the flow of information constantly and to varying degrees. The conscious and unconscious parts of our brains are deeply entertwined. You just do not know the intricacies and downstream repercussions of conscious or unconscious information.