Its WRONG its so clearly WRONG i knew it all along in my heart of hearts that meat eating is ontologically evil, it camnot be justified its wrong so weong weong wrong weong weong wrong wrong its all so obvious. You dont understand, how many of you have actually cut into the butchered meat of an animal??? Most of u eat processed meats, at best you chop of a chicken thigh, its not the same your mind doesnt make the right and true connection. Its so wrong.
Its evil. Its utterly evil. And im a meat eater... i am... im a demon... im awful.. i should stop but .. even if knew 100% that being vegetarian is unhealthy i still wouldn't be in the right. I wouldn't i wouldn't. It would be evil still because i could still live comfortably as a vegetarian albeit id just be weaker and enjoy life slightly less, but does killing INNOCENT ANIMALS really justify an aprox 20-30% in quality of life? Does it? And thats being very generous with the %.
Would you eat people if it meant you felt 1% happier??
So WHY IS IT OK WITH ANIMALS????
HUHH???
HUHHHHHH?
HAVE YOU EVER LOOKED INTO A DOGS EYES? IN THERE IT LKKE A MICROCOSM OF THE UNIVERSE, NOW THINK a pig is even smarter than a dog.
And then cows.. theyre so cute... theyre adorable...

We as humans love to protect animals, pet them.
The eating of animals may be indeed satanic or even worse and a corruption of the pureness of a human soul.
The desire to eat meat is purely demonic. The desire to ascend from eating meat is angelic. And that is my final VERDICT. (I think)

>>40356565 (OP)
I agree, that's why I don't eat meat or support the dairy or egg industries, which are intertwined with it

well you certainly pass as a lesbian

dog doesnt taste all that bad honestly

>>40356565 (OP)
holy shit your posts are so annoying

there is increasing evidence that plants and even some 'not alive' matter seems to act in ways that are perhaps intelligent. this is, to be clear, not me equating the sentience of for example mammals with the intelligence of plants. i am more just saying that we as humans have a bias to put value on things that are recognisably like us, relative to things that seem unlike us. imagining consuming plants as morally neutral whereas eating animals as inherently morally evil is i think an example of such a bias. that said i think the meat industry is more immoral than other agriculture, if only because it is more disruptive to the natural systems that all living things rely on to survive. but then we get into a wider conversation about humans role in those systems, in which we seem to have positioned ourselves as disruptors. that is a different ethical debate entirely i think.

just as acts of consumption, rather than considering the ethics of the production of food more widely, i think it is an unavoidable truth that we must consume other living beings in order to survive. and unless you want to exist entirely off of fallen fruit and carcasses you find lying around, that involves harming living things capable of feeling and expressing pain and distress. the same is true of both animals and plants.

>>40356565 (OP)
your ideas are terrifying and your hearts are faint. your acts of pity and cruelty are absurd, committed with no calm, as if they were irresistible. finally, more and more, you fear blood. blood and time.

>>40356565 (OP)
there is no such thing as ontological evil, what a ridiculous proposition

>>40356624
a vegan diet directly reduces the amount of overall plants consumed, a good chunk of farmland is dedicated just to animal feed

>>40356695
yes, but without beef how would we employ the beef farmers?

checkmate liberal

Moralism is a sadomasochistic fetish

>>40356706
The ones working in the fields are illegal immigrants anyway lol

>>40356635
The world is a meat grinder there is so much suffering and pain and injustice it contorts my soul and makes me ache in pain the weird is a throbbing living demon and we are its minions. Flesh goes in flesh comes out
Suffering goes in suffering comes ojt
Blood is everywhere, and so much pain. There is blood on my shooes, blood on the street, the handles of every door are covered in blood and the guts of innocents are strayed everywhere accross place like decorations for the wicked. And we dont even realize, must of us are just oblivious to this awful reality.

>>40356753
The world is a demon*

>>40356695
i don't disagree! but this is also an argument relating to the ethics of food consumption. both mine and OP's posts were about the ethics of animal consumption. these are two separate discussions. my post was in response to OP's and your post is not in response to mine, really.

>>40356753
so when you kill the rabbit you say, "thank you, grandmother rabbit," and appreciate what the animal has given you. i agree with you that removal and alienation from the act of killing has dire consequences

>>40356788
THATS NOT ENOUGH
THAT DOESNT MAKE IT RIGHT
SAYING THANK YOU IS JUST TO MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER
SO YOUR conscience feels better!
FUCKKKKK YOUR FEELINGS
FUCK YOUR SELF LITTLE PRAYER
YOU'RE A KILLER

TRVKE

>>40356565 (OP)
the only meat i'll eat is human meat, and one i've killed with my own hands.
t. vegan
>>40356788
lmao this is my favorite cope
i'm going to come by your house and eat you, but while i'm going to do is i'm going to whisper lovingly how good you taste and how thankful i am for your sacrifice. you'll love it, anon.

>>40356825
>the only meat i'll eat is human meat, and one i've killed with my own hands.
>t.vegan

Why are you sounding like them... no..no... you're supposed to be better.. ur supposed to be an angel...

>>40356796
>>40356825
what about all the human suffering that goes into the produce you eat, and the picking of it? to me, the more pressing material issue is the function of the supply chain under capital economy, not making a stand about the ontological morality (?) of eating meat. and, on that point, i'm still waiting for a formal demonstration of the "ontological evil" of meat-eating

>>40356924
see >>40356695

>>40356825
if the human you kill and eat consents to it then it’s vegan

>>40356924
Have you ever donated to the United Farmworkers? Shut up retard you will burn in hell because you have zero justification for the torture and rape and murder of innocent sentient beings

>>40356924
>m still waiting for a formal demonstration of the "ontological evil" of meat-eating

Listen to your soul..

>>40356935
that's a decent material argument, but it doesn't prove meat is "ontologically evil." again, this seems more to do with the structure of our current system and the way livestock are seen as a source of revenue, like everything else. there are ways of eating meat that are sustainable

>>40356565 (OP)
I accept your terms. If I can't eat animal meat, I will eat vegans.

>>40356959
https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?si=kMHSLd6Tj3b4iBG6

>>40356944
i have very little way of knowing, in this system, which of my purchases are directly contributing to suffering the most. is it the chicken? the coffee? the gasoline? what actually is doing the most damage and causing the most harm? it's the system of capital economy, as a whole, that causes this harm

>>40356954
dogs eat meat, you know. are you doing white people buddhism?

There might really be a hell... and meat eaters will go there... and ill being there too.... its only fair....im just not good enough... im so weak..... i hope hell isnt to painful... i hope rathers its the absence of god that is the true hell...
I feel like being a meat eater is a hellcin itself.. just a mear eternity of reflecting on the wrongs of eating meat.. maybe a few million years can fix a soul... or are some of us incorrigble?.. but why would god create something that cant be fixed. There must always be the option to br good. That must be so

I won't be online fkr a while.. becahse im too sad with my nature and the nature ofnthe world

>>40356924
do you know the absurd levels of suffering caused by the meat industry? this isn't being overworked or whatever. it's like the holocaust but worse somehow lmao. anything you can do to contribute it stopping is a massive good, no matter how tiny it is, solely by how massive the evil it's in relation to. i'm casting a vote. but yeah capitalism bad, so true. what are (you) doing about it?

>>40357000
if you want to minimize suffering eat beef, one cow has hundreds of kilos of meat on it

>>40356976
>>40357000
have you seen "killer of sheep"?

>>40356993
it’s the chickens retard. See >>40356976
Your ignorance is both willful and unjustifiable

>>40357017
Plus they do let them roam around most of their life so I think it is the least cruel, the land use for cows is massively inflated because they actually do graze them for most of their life before putting them into the feed lots before slaughter.

humans are the only species we know of that might ever be capable of lifting life as a whole out of darwinian hell
if your brain works significantly better when fed meat, as it appears to for most people, it's worth it on longtermist grounds even with high disutility assigned to animal suffering. one good thing you can do is shift your meat consumption away from pork and poultry towards beef, because it's probably the least bad in suffering/nutrition ratio and won't leave you deficient in a bunch of stuff
if your brain works fine on a vegan diet i don't want to stop you from doing it though, and i've met people who do fine with it. ultimately the way this gets solved is by growing meat without brains, and vegans are very useful for providing an early adopter group to help this stuff get off the ground

>>40356565 (OP)
Meat is delicious. I'm about to fry some chicken right now.

>>40357040
I feel a lot worse about eating chicken actually, their lives are much more confining. Idk how pigs work.

>>40357051
Watch >>40356976

>>40357056
it says its age restricted and i don't sign into youtube lol

also, HRT captcha

>>40357062
its a 2 hour long documentary that's mostly graphic footage of farms and abattoirs as far as i can tell

>>40357062
https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch

>>40356565 (OP)
Living means killing. It means inflicting suffering onto others. And it means dying, and suffering yourself.
Eating meat is not uniquely wrong or evil.

>Would you eat people if it meant you felt 1% happier??
You do this, though. You contribute a very small amount towards the suffering of a very large number of people. Everything you have requires work. And in the course of that work, people suffer and die. They are mangled in accidents, driven to suicide, or live long, miserable lives. So long as you live, there's no getting away from this. You will always do harm to something or someone, somewhere. Even if the blame is dispersed and consequences obfuscated.

It's evil, we are the demons and torturers, they live in hell, have you seen how they transport chicken? But when I tried to become vegan, while meditating a revelation came to me, until I manage to stop meat production altogether I need to accept their offerings, otherwise their suffering goes unappreciated, they were born to die and feed us fallen angels.

>>40357112
our civilisation is on a time limit because of the fossil fuels it requires to run lul

>>40357112
This is very true which is why any rational person should seek to reduce the suffering and death caused by their existence to the greatest extent possible, right?
>>40357114
Kill yourself

>>40357133
Disrespecting the sacrifice makes you a bad person.

>>40357138
Kill yourself

>>40356565 (OP)
I've butchered and cleaned small game, squirrels and rabbits. Meat isn't pretty, butchery isn't. It's brutal, messy and only satisfying to some people. But it's not evil when done with care and efficiency.

I hate factory farming, I hate the industry, but I don't hate meat. I take action where I can to support local farmers who actually do decent stuff and all that. I feel way more comfortable eating hunted meat.

>>40357159
Ironic

>>40357179
Kill yourself and sacrifice for the animals so that there will be less meat demand driving up the supply :D

>>40357133
>any rational person should seek to reduce the suffering and death caused by their existence to the greatest extent possible, right?
No. That suffering and death is inherent to the activity of living. By being alive, you've already made the choice to be selfish, to put yourself above others and to benefit at their expense.

Doing that while trying to minimize the death and suffering you cause (at your own expense) is completely contradictory.

>>40357235
Entirely illogical. You will burn in hell

>>40357213
>meat demand
Want to stop meat production? Prepare to sacrifice all the animals, no one is willing to keep them out of kindness, those animals were bred solely to die, there's no way you can stop the supply without cutting it for good.

>>40357112
I read the quote in your pic and thought wow i agree with everything so i checked this guy out and this is on his wiki.....
Bruh..
He thought killing/torturing innocents somehow bought the guilty closer to god.

What the fuck.......


The people who agree with me are psychotic and the people who dont agree with me are sociopathic and make excuses for their sins

This shit is so ass

>>40357267
Okay, and? Kill yourself

>>40357284
No argument.

>>40357235
>No. That suffering and death is inherent to the activity of living. By being alive, you've already made the choice to be selfish, to put yourself above others and to benefit at their expense.

This i agree on


>Doing that while trying to minimize the death and suffering you cause (at your own expense) is completely contradictory.


This doesn't follow. You just sound like someone who wants to justify awful things they do.

>>40357292
A massive decline in animal population is better than massive death and suffering for no reason. Kill yourself

>>40357242
hell isn't real sweety

>>40357271
The idea that innocents suffering can absolve the sins of the guilty is literally basic bitch Christianity 101. That's the entire idea behind Jesus. Is it unhinged, yes, uncommon, no.

>>40357305
>massive death is better than massive death
Genius

>>40357304
>This doesn't follow.
Sure it does.
You already exchange 5 suffering for 10 pleasure.
But now you won't exchange 6 suffering for 11 pleasure because doing so is bad? Then why'd you make the above trade?

>You just sound like someone who wants to justify awful things they do.
I don't do anything out of the ordinary.

>>40357304
You see a bee that had just lost their sting, what do you do?

>>40357327
One final free generation dying is equal to an infinity of tortured dead generations? Are you genuinely retarded? Kill yourself

>>40357307
>The idea that innocents suffering can absolve the sins of the guilty is literally basic bitch Christianity 101. That's the entire idea behind Jesus. Is it unhinged, yes, uncommon, no.

It makes literally 0 sense tho.. its like some shit you'd think the most evil caricature of characters would come up with


For a while now iv thought Christianity is basically a blood magic cult and this confirms it.

>symbol is a execution/ torture device (imagine a foreign religion's symbol being an iron maiden)
>at mass they drink the blood of christ and eat his fucking flesh
>one time when i was young i said the name of christ and i was literally attacked by demons. (Real)

Im sure there is more.


This is fucking huge tbqh. Its probable that most religions are actually nlt worshipping a good god.
I do however beleive there are good gods. Because i have good in me.
I think different types of souls have different gods that apply to them.

Evil people will be herded into Christianity and the other big filters, and then when they die they probably get thrown into a meatgrinder and rhe paste grows another world to create even more unique suffering.


This is a final verdict.
Most religions are worshipping evil gods.

>>40357332
eating meat is like 10000 suffering for 10 pleasure though. Youre hiding behind maxims and arbitrary measurements

Never ask a vegan how many rats and insects get chopped up and mixed in with his soi beans by the harvesting machines.

morals are made up. go kill and butcher a chicken and maybe you'll become desensitized enough not to care

>>40357389
The answer is very few. Have you ever worked on a onions farm?

>>40357344
Stop parroting that, you clearly don't understand the balance between life and death, sacrificing an entire species would have terrible spiritual implications, let alone letting it go to waste which is also bad.
Also, you don't make a good point other than "they are suffering", everyone is suffering, life is a constant battle against the nature of the universe, the very same reality that created us wants us dead, why not just stop the suffering of every single living being now that we are into that? Or is it that you care only about those that you can put the blame onto others?

>>40357420
>Incoherent babbling
Every time. Eating meat is fundamentally evil and turns all souls who participate into unthinking slavish freaks

Oh and KILL YOURSELF

>>40357414
>Very few
Oh poor naive dear.

>>40357434
you seem genuinely retarded and incapable of critical thought. this discussion is a waste of time for everyone involved

>>40357446
Have you ever worked on a soibean farm? The answer is no

>>40357456
You have so far done nothing to directly defend your meat consumption. All you do is deflect and mirror my responses, even this final insult of yours is a copy of my replies. You are not human. Kill yourself

>>40357457
Have you ever been in a crop field?

>>40357470
Yes, I work with plants for a living

>>40357434
Your very existence is detrimental to everything about you, having a "living" place such as a house takes over nature, an innumerable amount of animals and plants have been displaced for your own pleasure, killed even to open up space for your vapid necessities, every single thing you own comes from a place that contaminates everything around it, however you choose to live is making a huge dent on the natural balance of things, so, again, do you only care when you can blame others?

>>40357479
Your greenhouse is not an industrial crop field.

>>40357491
>about you
*around you
Stupid autocorrect. But you won't even answer so who cares.

>>40357414
>>40357457
i have only ever worked with livestock and never in a factory but im pretty sure the rodents and insects are not mostly getting in during the harvesting. im pretty sure they make homes in the factory and theyre not very smart creatures so they end up falling into the machines and products. but what do i know
>>40357466
i literally just joined this thread, but from what i can tell youre fucking stupid and stubborn and will continue refuse to consider anything else anyone has to say. go live on in your own world schizo and leave us be to enjoy our meats

>>40356565 (OP)
>WHY IS IT OK WITH ANIMALS
Because they also eat each other all the time. Circle of life. That being said factory farming is obviously evil and animal pasture should be reduced by an order of magnitude for environmental reasons, so everyone should certainly eat less meat.

>>40357491
What currently exists IS the natural balance of things, what I support and try to do to the best of my ability is CHANGE the natural balance of things to be more ethical. You’re unfortunately without a mind entirely. I would say kill yourself another time but I don’t know if death exists for pzombies

>>40357505
>But you won't even answer so who cares.
lol they probably won't even read. all they see is MEAT EATER EVIL!!!!! no other nuance to the world allowed. some schizo bpd ass bullshit. sage pls

>>40356565 (OP)
You are weak.
Ive hunted, killed, and eaten my own kills.
Life isnt a fairy tale, grow up, you are privileged that you dont have to fight to survive everyday and your sheltered softness is loathesome

>>40357363
>eating meat is like 10000 suffering for 10 pleasure though.
That's entirely subjective. The amount of suffering HEAVILY depends on the individual circumstances at hand. The intelligence/capacity for the animal to suffer, the conditions in which they are kept, and the manner in which they are slaughtered. These conditions can be or are better than what the animals would experience in the wild. I mean, it's pretty hard to argue that beekeeping somehow causes suffering to the bees. They can leave any time they like. Of course that's far from the case everywhere, but the only reason we have to do all this factory farming shit in the first place is the sheer amount of people alive today.

Regardless, I don't care. I do amoral things for personal gain.
That's not unique to me, or any human, or any animal. Life is not moral.

>>40356565 (OP)
Huh? Sorry I couldn't hear you over all the meat I was eating *buuuuuuuuuuurp*

lol i would pay to see op get airdropped into the middle of alaska and watch them starve only to get torn apart by bears and wolves

>>40357508
Lmao okay, so you’re a violent abusive piece of shit? Kill yourself. How am I a schizo for saying you shouldn’t eat meat and being rude? Further you are just as stubborn as me.

As for rats in soi processing facilities, I don’t know about any of that and I couldn’t find much with a cursory search online but it PALES in comparison to industrial meat production to the point that it is irrelevant to the discussion. They are also dying of their own will in their own way when they fall into machinery

>>40357522
>What currently exists IS the natural balance of things
no it fucking isnt you retard. we are an invasive species and have ruined every ecosystem we've touched. if you care so much about animals you should be advocating for human extinction

>>40357522
So you think you are living in balance with nature? While you are using an electronic device? Wearing clothes? Eating? Existing?

Us humans are inherently unnatural, we are here to destroy the world, it's the only thing we can do and it's even worse when hypocrites like you exist, go live in the woods, live off the fruits that naturally fall from trees, don't ever disrupt nature such as taking the grains of plants, don't eat plants either as they feel, don't drink boiled water as it kills germs, just live off the earth like an animal before coming to tell everyone how you are better for not eating meat.

>>40356565 (OP)
so glad my parents raised me vegan. also red meat increases T levels (yuck). unfortunately onions increasing E levels is just honscience tho

>>40357534
You are ontologically evil. Kill yourself and in the meantime I will pray for an accident to take you

>>40357523
You called it, these people never understand

>>40357584
>>40357589
Nature is what exists retards, I want to change that nature. And yes I support all those other causes and try to live as ethically as I can. DO YOU? The answer is no. So instead of forcing me to be a saint in order to oppose senseless animal torture you should look in the mirror and kill yourself

>>40357613
Well I do, I respect others, I respect animals, I let them live unless it is absolutely necessary like ending their suffering, and better of all, I don't go around wishing bad things to happen to my brethren, you are genuinely evil and a hypocrite.

>>40357577
in one ear and out the other. youre schizo for being stuck in your own head. i am completely open to hearing any point that you have but everything you written sounds like a schizophrenic breakdown and you have completely misunderstood or ignored everything you've responded to thus far.
like listen, i dont think its fair either. i think its immoral and shitty the way humans treat animals. i also dont care that much because i dont have the fucking energy to breakdown like you are over every bad thing in the world. i also think you are missing an incredible amount of nuance that you just boiled down to "killing bad", sounds like youre splitting pretty heavily desu. i think if you go over and read what some of the other anons have said and genuinely take it in you could come away from this with a more nuanced, broader perspective. but from how youre acting i doubt that will happen, so idk why im wasting my time even writing this

>>40357569
If i had to survive id kill. But the thing is WE DONT NEED ALL THIS MEAT TO SURVIVE!!!!! IT'S PURELY FOR PLEASURE
dont get me wrong, a bear is charging at me and ill spear that fucker through the skull.. but i cant even eat it because it's full of parasites. Id kill a seal, eat it,then id make a ice raft and float to some island and if i made it back to land (0.000001% chance) iid get to civilization and id again have the option to not eat meat at all.

Dont mistake my kindness for weakness.

You are the one who is weak, so u have no have choice than to follow the actions of the weak and the unwilled. You are merely a prisoner of fate and biology a mere beast ur soul is unevolved and u need lots of self reflection. Even 1 million of you worthless scumbags can compare to me

>>40357635
>I respect animals
>Eats meat anyways
You are not my ‘brethren’. Kill yourself

>>40356565 (OP)
Honestly, having children is much worse than eating meat.

If you eat meat maybe that's evil but at least it will stop when you die. If you have children, not only will they eat meat, but they will suffer and die themselves, and they're much more intelligent than animals.

I consider that I've done my part in being a good person by making sure my bloodline ends with me.

>>40357642
>Blah blah I can eat meat because um ‘everything sucks’ and ‘sometimes insects get inside tofu’
Are you retarded? What is up there in that vacant ass skull of yours?

>>40357649
Ironic

>>40357644
Cant* compare

>>40357602
>these people never understand
they could. thats the thing, anyone can change their mind, they just need to get out of their own brain first

>>40357670
It's so funny seeing how they put themselves on a pedestal while living in an urban environment.

>>40357664
Kill yourself

>>40357687
So dumb and naive~

>>40357687
>Kill yourself
you've gotta find better ways to vent your frustrations than going schizo on 4chan and telling everyone clowning on you to kill themselves. sorry op but youre digging yourself a trench that's just going to lead to a greater mental breakdown

>>40357696
>No argument outside condescension and whataboutism
Dunning Kruger. Kill yourself

>>40357649
You are weak and make our society weaker.

>>40357701
>Greater mental breakdown
All I’m doing is insulting you? Youre really bad at reading people anon and your pattern recognition skills need some exercise if you can’t tell me and OP apart. Kill yourself :D

>>40357702
>No argument outside condescension and whataboutism
right. and you are so much better and well organized with your "killing bad" and "kill yourself" arguments. get over yourself

>>40357703
>Be in the minority that refuses to kill for pleasure
>Be called ‘weak’ by hegemonic culture
Yeah Imma say I don’t care and I’ll stand strong. Kill yourself

>>40357729
>*buys mass produced stuff, that has destroyed entired environments for his pleasure*
Based hypocrite

>>40357717
considering op or you or both of you also cant tell me apart from other anons in this thread, i think thats just the issue with an anonymous forum.

>>40357722
Unnecessary torture and killing are wrong. Kill yourself, you’re the one in here defending yourself

>>40357740
>Projection
My phone is 7 years old, my shoes ten, my pants and shirts and socks are hand me downs and the only new thing on me is my underwear which is a couple years old. As I have said previously, I don’t only care about animal suffering.
>>40357741
Op literally has a tripcode you blind tard

>>40357742
>you’re the one in here defending yourself
aren't you supposed to be defending the initial argument made by op? we've just been criticizing the argument and your defending with "BUT KILLING IS BADDD!!! KILL YOURSELF"

>>40357729
Stand strong until your creature comforts run out, the reason you're in the minority is because before the luxuries of modern western society weaklings like you would already be dead. Why dont you kill yourself instead, and decrease the burden you place upon society and the environment? Then again, if you're too weak to kill an animal, you're definitely too weak to kill yourself.

>>40357762
No I’m just insulting you and notice how you keep switching the argument away from the actual substance of the matter and focusing on the metaconversation? It’s a transparent rhetorical sleight of hand typically associated with the unintelligent. Kill yourself

>>40357773
Vegans have existed for all of recorded human history. Kill yourself

>>40357761
Again relying the blame on others, why are you such a coward? Besides, those are not the only things that you use, any sort of package destroys nature from its creation to its final destination which is most likely the sea or some steadily growing garbage pile displacing and making animals sick, anything, absolutely anything you do is hurting nature, breathing is lowering precious oxigen, drinking water needs plumbing which steals from natural reserves, the house of innocent animals, taking a dump and pissing creates gallons of waste, ingesting and using any sort of pharmaceuticals is so against nature yet I don't see you complaining about your daily treatment.

>>40357814
I have not placed the blame on another person this entire thread. You cant keep copy pasting the same argument over and over when it makes no sense. My ONLY point is that people should try to live as ethically as they are physically able and if you don’t bother then you’re biowaste who should KILL THEMSELVES

>>40357804
Show me the vegan hunter gatherers, weakling retard.

Life sustains on life.

>>40357740
What does buying mass produced stuff have to do with not wanting to kill animals to eat and why are you implying it's hypocritical

>>40357837
>moves the goalpost 10,000 years
https://www.the-independent.com/life-style/study-paleo-diet-stone-age-b2538096.html
Your ancestors didn’t engage in factory slaughter and they certainly weren’t chowing down on pounds of meat daily. Kill yourself

>>40357834
You are perfectly capable of ditching every single luxury you take advantage of, lead the way, stop wasting resources, stop increasing the demand on everything you use and ends up as waste.

Show me how it is done, but you can't, you are a hypocrite and a coward.

>>40357875
Yeah so your entire argument is that nobody can complain about anything unless they are literally Christ incarnate. That’s retarded and you know it, please have a little more self respect and yknow, kill yourself

>>40357112
the difference between de maistre and you is that de maistre posits an end to this state, a point at which it ceases to be necessary
you just want eternal hell, everyone forced to be a torturer or the tortured forever. de maistre was evil but he was better than you.

>>40357853
>what does taking over acres of land, using fuels to power huge machines that contaminate everything around it, that dump their waste onto rivers, that pollute the air have to do with killing animals
Where do you think wild animals live? Or do those not count?

>>40357904
>leaves out the operative words ‘to eat’
lol, lmao even

>>40357887
Exactly, stop complaining, you are yet another cog, refusing to eat meat doesn't stop the suffering of animals, you only want to feel superior, you aren't.

>>40357918
>refuses to answer properly
>again
lol

>>40357267
you can tell it isn't the death that people are upset about by noticing that livestock aren't naturally immortal
like this should be incredibly fucking obvious but i guess i have to point it out to you. it's the quality of their lives that vegans are relying on to justify their stance, not the fact that those lives end. like death is in fact bad but we haven't fixed it for anyone yet, so it can't be the primary thing vegans are mad about.

>>40357847
I saw a painting of squirrels happily eating nuts together and i thought. "This is heaven". Thats what nature intended.


Meat eating is a bestial thing that predators do. But the human soul has the capability and capacity for good.

>>40357904
>what does taking over acres of land, using fuels to power huge machines that contaminate everything around it, that dump their waste onto rivers, that pollute the air have to do with killing animals
Yeah that's why I don't support the meat industry, which does all that specifically for the industrialized slaughter of bred farm animals
Stupid to imply "You HAVE to eat meat if you buy mass produced stuff or else you're morally hypocritical!"

>>40357933
I already told you I attempt to live as ethically as I can which makes your entire whataboutist point irrelevant. Like it LITERALLY makes no sense and is a complete non sequitor.
>>40357923
No I will never reduce myself to your level.

Kill yourselves

>>40357944
>refuses to acknowledge other industries destroying the living space of wild animals, even when the question was made explicitly
Sniveling coward

>>40357961
>it's bad when you do it but everything I do is justified because I AM TRYING
lol, you ain't doing shit

>>40357969
It's you who's the sniveling coward.
I do what I can to reduce animal abuse by not buying wool, cheese, meat, milk, and so on.
You're so desperate to justify your support or industrial abuse and slaughter that you'd equate this to indirect harm by destroying habitats from mass produced stuff in general.

>>40357984
>dodging the question
>again

>>40358004
I directly responded to it. Coward.

>>40358019
lol, get off the internet, it hurts animals.

>>40357942
Paintings are prettier than the raw unforgiving indifference of nature.

>>40357923
so the argument a non-evil non-vegan makes to justify their own decisions in response to vegans is something like >>40357041
this "other things you do are just as bad" thing you're going with, when you both do those things and eat meat, have no intention of stopping any of it, have no argument for why in the end it's all worth it, all sounds a bit odd to someone who just wants good things to happen and doesn't want bad things to happen. you're not even trying to claim "this is the best course of action available despite its downsides", you're trying to claim "other people aren't allowed to judge me for being evil, because they also do things that have downsides".

>>40358048
Justify? I literally said it is evil but I honor their sacrifice, after all, similarly to what anon said about second hand clothing, I did not pay the butcher, I didn't even buy the meat, I was served a plate and what am I supposed to do? Throw it into the garbage? To further contaminate nature?

>>40358026
Laugh all you want, you're still choosing to support this.
>>40358086
You eat their ground remains. How honorable; maybe we should eat dead humans to honor them, too.

>>40358102
Forgot the picture

>>40358086
i mean predictably refusing meat when somebody serves it to you results in people not serving you meat, which lowers the overall demand for meat (either that or they go insane trying to make you eat it so that you're complicit, but this is visibly odd behavior to anyone non-evil who happens to be watching, so it's still net positive because it helps teach people about evil)

>>40358115
We literally live in a the torture dimension.
We are the wardens of our very own hell.
And the animals are the innocent.
I dont understand... i dont understand.... why must the world be so ugly...

>>40356565 (OP)
eating meat is definitely wrong but are you okay?

>>40358102
No, seriously, where do your think lithium and silicone comes from? Do you advocate for not only slavery, but child labor under slavery? Why don't you stop using everything society has to offer? Why stop at eating meat, or is it absolutely necessary to tell others to kill themselves on the internet?

>>40358155
Where did I tell you to support child slavery and to kill yourself?

>>40358118
OK I stop eating meat, as if it was hard, now what? How do we save the rest of nature? Are you willing or that's where you draw the line? It worries me more that we are continuously destroying the entire environment by taking over nature but farm animals seem to be more important to you.

>>40358169
Then get off the internet, stop using electronic devices, get off the electric grid, destroy your plumbing.

>>40358179
The meat industry itself requires destroying a lot of the environment for the farm animals and for growing all the food to feed them in the first place.
And yeah, obviously the climate itself is important. On an individual level, you can tey reducing your carbon footprint and consuming and buying less junk and using less energy, but we also need legislation. Are you doing anything or are you just bringing this up as an excuse to keep eating meat?

>>40358194
>Then get off the internet, stop using electronic devices, get off the electric grid, destroy your plumbing.

These are all valid points. But two wrongs doesn't make a right. Deflecting from one issue doesnt solve the issuebwe are discussing. There is a time and a place for everything.
ONE ISSUE AT A TIME.
meat is the easiest thinf to go off of i think because its really just food... there is such a wide variety of food.....
I mean if u went vegetarian u could still eat cheese, its not perfect cuz milk is also a bit evil well if its american it is cuz they like r really mean to their cows

>>40358194
What if I said "No, I'm not going to do that until you and everyone else stop eating meat because that's worse"? Seems like a great way not to do anything.

>>40358179
Nature doesn’t matter. Avoiding meat while not sacking macros adds a few years to your lifespan.

>>40358179
>How do we save the rest of nature?
ultimately we're not trying to save "nature", if by nature you mean the natural order of things and the pre-human (or pre-industrial, or pre-agricultural) environment.
we're trying to save the organisms stuck in nature from nature, and build environments better for them than nature.
ultimately this probably means converting the lightcone into computronium, running paradises for earth's organisms uploaded in silico, and giving them the opportunity to develop toward full sapience if their desires take them there
given how rare life appears to be in our visible universe, this probably doesn't require much of the available resources, and we can spend a bunch of the rest running universe sims and mining them for more beings to rescue (though this project might be controversial if the mathematical universe/modal realist hypotheses are less obvious to transhumans/posthumans than it seems like they will be to me)

>>40358209
>>40358244
Again, I can do that, but I can't stop them from buying the same amount of meat and eat the portion that was meant to be for me. I care more about destroying the entire world with vapid shit like clothing, electronics, productions of any kind like movies, videogames, books, music, we don't need any of that to live yet no one seems to want to stop those.

>>40356565 (OP)
if you eat plants and their products and sperg about animals you are subhuman. simple as. either only consume artificial corn syrup or dont bother virtue signalling

>>40358241
I already said several times I'd stop eating meat, but that changes absolutely nothing, you don't want to stop contributing to pollution unless others do and that's how everyone acts.
>>40358266
Why would you subject them to the torture of being sentient? That's even more cruel.

Just posting here to say I agree with the "kys" spamming vegan.

>>40358501
>you don't want to stop contributing to pollution unless others do and that's how everyone acts.
I mean I do do this though
That was just a hypothetical reversal

>>40358491
being vegetarian/vegan is fembrained btw

>>40358738
>I do do this
>posting from an electronic device
>while wearing mass produced clothing
>after a session of chemicals
>buying all sorts of stuff that comes in packages
I know right, so pro environmental, it's so funny how you think not eating meat is saving the environment.

>>40358857
Well I'm manmoding, but I've worn the same clothes for like ten years.
I always walk or take public transportation unless it's completely impractical.
I take quick 5-minute showers.
I don't contribute to the meat industry, like I said.
Yeah, I buy things and have an electronic device. So do you. I guess you don't do anything for the environment either, then, do you? The whole conversation eas just a game to say vegans are hypocritical while being worse in every respect yourself. It didn't really matter what I said, did it?

>>40358895
And also, to add on, I originally talked about not supporting the meat and dairy and wool industries for moral reasons, not even environmental ones. Somehow this became about me being hypocritical because not wanting to torture and slaughter animals on an industrial scale means you also have to be environmentally friendly. It's not related.

>>40358895
I used to be like that so I understand where all of this comes from, then I realized I can't save the environment without saving everyone else first, you need to realize why people eat meat, it's just easier and cheaper, meat has a strong flavor and fills your stomach faster, it's easily available and fulfills your basic needs; most people here are just surviving, and the meat industry offers a quick and relatively cheap meal, they can either go vegan and spend money they don't have on way more edible mass or buy a pound of meat and feed an entire family.
So the first step is not destroying the industry but getting rid of the necessity, make vegan food easily available and cheap, offer alternatives instead of demonizing others. And that would solve only a very thin slice of the problem, so do we really care about the environment or do we just want to feel superior?

>>40358895
>>40358963
Your very existence requires the use of fossil fuels. Over half the nitrogen in your body is probably a result of nitrogen fixation, which we need gaz for. You use electricity, electric lighting, climate controls, electronics. Your furniture is made of petroleum products.

Our civilisation is built on the combustion of carbon fuels, as the resulting greenhouse gasses pile up our world will begin to look different from it does today. We cannot stop this, as to phase out fossil fuels would lead to the death of the billions born as a result of their use.

>>40356565 (OP)
vegans die early. humans are predators, eating meat is our nature.

>>40358963
That's nothing, anon, seriously, that's just basic and won't do any change really, I never understood why farm animals are more important than river fish, or birds, or wood creatures, which with all the consumption of other products you are contributing to making their lives worse, I feel worse when I see all the polluted rivers, all the sick birds, when I can't see the night sky, when I see all the grey clouds, farm animals are such a tiny portion of the problem that even seems like a joke that everyone focuses on them.

You might be too young, you sound too young, so you never experienced the correct seasons or animal migrations even on cities, when I was a kid I'd go outside and see plenty of insects, birds, flowers and trees, now it's all barren, in a span of less than 30 years almost everything has disappeared, but muh farm animals.

>>40358993
Well, like I said, I don't support these industries primarily for moral reasons. I just also care about my individual carbon footprint.
>they can either go vegan and spend money they don't have on way more edible mass or buy a pound of meat and feed an entire family.
If you're really short on cash, rice and beans isn't that expensive. Adding other legumes and vegetables and spices makes the dinner taste better.
>And that would solve only a very thin slice of the problem, so do we really care about the environment or do we just want to feel superior?
I don't get why you keep telling me I just want to feel superior. Did slave owners tell abolitionists everyone relied on slavery so anyone against it just wanted to feel superior?
The real solution is to get into politics. That requires there being enough people who either care about the environment or about animal welfare. The vast majority don't yet. It's all about owning the libs by subsidizing fossil fuels and cutting investments into green energy and stuff, because Americans are conservative individualists.

>>40359053
>you
I am not the problem anon, now go and tell everyone to live off rice then go to a 9 to 5.

>>40359053
Your individual carbon footprint is incalculable horseshit. The atmosphere does not care what you do, it only knows what we put into it in sum.

If you are worried about carbon footprint, go work in the energy industry.

>>40356565 (OP)
If eating meat is "evil" does that mean it's humanities moral obligation to eradicate all carnivorous life from the planet?

If not, why not?
If so :
>Is killing the carnivore not still "murder" in your eyes?
>does the fact that this would cause ecological collapse matter?

>>40359005
I like how this conversation went like this:
>Veganism is good for moral reasons
>You hypocrite, I bet you don't care about climate change or the environment
>I do, here are the ways I reduce my carbon footprint
>You idiot, you'll never change the environment, it's doomed, best give up now

>>40359068
it is kinda true tho, I picked my career based on climate change and yeah we are pretty screwed unless people far above us decide to see it like an engineering problem.

>>40359066
>>40359081
Alright, just know that the industrialized abuse and slaughter of animals is wrong no matter my individual carbon footprint, you.
This is a stupid thing to sidetrack on.

>>40359083
vegetarianism can be based and the cruelty is largely a separate issue. When it comes to carbon footprint though, just enjoy your life and don't worry about it. Ultimately what they are doing to keep you alive is not your fault.

>>40359083
just make sure you get enough iron and protien, my mom was a vegetarian for a while and it fucked with her. Maybe try eating seafood, its healthier than land meat anyways and fish don't have the same brain mammals do.

>>40359149
I do get enough of those I'm pretty sure, but I do take B12 supplements too

>>40359219
alright, just don't be annoying about your vegetarianism. You may think it is wrong to eat animals, but ultimately the world is far beyond any of our control, you can only ensure moral purity within yourself. Sorry about the fossilfuel posting its something on my mind.

>>40356753
iktf iktf so much
my gods are going to fix everything eventually though, and we don't have to do anything to make that happen.

>>40358779
i would sooner be carnivore only. plants are more my friends than any filthy animal.

>>40360227
>animals are filthy
>eats filthy things

>>40360246
yes because filthy rapist/killer things deserve to die more than kind, life-loving things

>>40360269
>>40360227
More plants are killed by eating meat. You have to grow the feed to feed them in the first place, which is more inefficient than eating it directly.
Also, fewer such filthy animals would be bred in the first place if it weren't for the meat industry.

>WAHHHHHHHHHHH WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH LIFE IS EVIL
babby's first sentient thought

Is tasty and they were put here for me to consume so I'll keep doing that

>>40356565 (OP)
Based vegan transbian. Carnists can't cope.

>>40356825
BASED BASED BASED

>>40356924
>what about all the human suffering that goes into the produce you eat, and the picking of it?
Like 80% of all plants we grow go to feeding animals that are then slaughtered by even more overworked and underpaid people than the farmers. Veganism directly reduces every aspect of the inhumanity of industrial farming by a large margin.

>>40357041
>if your brain works significantly better when fed meat, as it appears to for most people
At least half of all genius level thinkers and inventors have been vegan or vegetarian (it was easier to justify consuming eggs or dairy when it was just from a healthy animal your friend kept in his yard).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetarians
>inb4 wikipedia as source

>>40362544
My problem with your source isn't that it's wikipedia, it's that it doesn't back your claim at fuckin' all.

>>40357389
Always point out to carnists that the vast majority of s( )y and corn and whatever shit kills rats is used as animal feed.
Always point out that the death toll for rats and birds in fields is still lower than the meat industry.

>>40362563
Oh right you probably think "great thinker" is some nepobaby like musk or bezos and have never read a book.

>>40362544
>>40362611
>At least half of all genius level thinkers and inventors have been vegan or vegetari
you literally just pulled this out of your stinky crusty asshole

The only way to stop meat consumption is to create a steady supply of vegan products, open as many vegan stores as butcheries, make them cheap and give plenty of information, and most important of all, stop demonizing others, it seems that vegans can't communicate their concerns withour calling others evil or advocating for murder

>>40356565 (OP)
at first I thought you are talking about giving head.

t. HSTS

>>40362914
>vegan products
Find me a store that doesn't sell grains, legumes, and vegetables in any combination. Every grocery store in the world has everything you need to be vegan as is.
>make them cheap
I spend maybe 250$ a month on food, and I only spend so much because I'm adventurous with cooking and like making new dishes. Being vegan is dirt cheap compared to eating meat.
>plenty of information
Whole food plant based diets have been proven over and over to be better for health and longevity for a couple decades now, and there's multiple well made documentaries about this.

This whole "people would be vegan if it was possible/cheap/not cringe" is a myth. People are carnists because they don't care that the few minutes of mouth pleasure they get from eating meat is worth more to them than the life and suffering of any animal. The world will not be vegan until meat is illegal, just like the world would not stop slavery until it was illegal, and even then spent centuries finding loopholes to still allow it.

vegans don't be insufferable for 0.1 seconds challenge
difficulty level: impossible

>>40363094
You have no idea how often I've heard that I'm privileged for eating rice and lentils and that poor people have to eat MickeyD's every day...
Same kind of person that argued I was privileged for renting an apartment and poor people owned houses outside of big cities.

So far it seems to me the debats boils down to:

Vegetarian: i dont like unnecessary animal suffering.. ;_;

Meat eaters: FUCK YOU I CAN KILL WHAT I WANT MIGHT MAKES RIGHT
>:(

Hmmm i wonder which of these sides are the bad guys..

>>40363228
>says she an orc city defender but can't stomach meat
ngmi

>>40363245
I still eat meat but i recognize its evil. At least i can confess to my crimes. Can you?

>>40356565 (OP)
animals are property stupid. they have no rights.

>>40356565 (OP)
Its morally correct to kill 10,000 cows if it makes 1 person happy

if you are vegan you should also be antinatalist

>>40356565 (OP)
TRVKE

>>40356565 (OP)
I'm vegetarian, but dogs deserve to be slaughtered

>>40363318
Nope! I'm actually pro-life.

>>40363318
everyone, who isn't retarded should be

>>40363228
As if vegetarians aren't carnists stfu.

>>40356565 (OP)
eating meat is evil but im an evil girl

name ONE thing that's morally wrong about eating honey

>>40363094
Everything is cheaper when you make it, that's not what most people do, they don't want to buy raw materials and spend some time preparing, what they mean by expensive is that a salad doesn't cover their perceived needs, so they'd need to buy a salad and something else to feel full.
>but they don't need to
Well, convince them, that's what needs to be done anyway and it's impossible.
And again with the demonizing, you'll never get anywhere with that, what is with people that believe being aggressive will get them anywhere, they don't think about the suffering of the animals because they are not eating the animal, they bought some processed red slab that came in a package, they don't even care what it contains, only that it turns into something "tasty" when you cook it.
So, again, if you want to turn the world vegan, make everything vegan easily available, stop telling them they are wrong, the moment you call them evil or make up names for them they won't take you seriously, help them get better by showing them how to live a better life, not by exposing how wrong they are, it never works.