Thread 40496978

Why is transmedicalism supposed to be wrong?

>>40496978 (OP)
i dont like the anti-diy part, but i kinda agree that you should only take hrt if you have gender dsyphoria

I think it's harmful to the individual. Transmed spaces are full of sad insecure people.

The total medicalisation of transness will most likely be used to minimise the amount of people allowed to transition, no hormones unless you're 5 suicide attempts deep type shit. Who am I to say no if some idiot with no idea of who they are wants to dope themselves up? Your body your choice.

>>40496990
>i kinda agree that you should only take hrt if you have gender dsyphoria
Why though?

Most transmedicalists seems to be young AFAB who are convinced that they are valid and others trenders. They usually mature out of this.

>>40496978 (OP)
it isn't, but transmeds are still retarded because they want to gatekeep hrt based on dysphoria when it should be based on passability

>>40496978 (OP)
its just logical that if you're trans you need to have gender dysphoria, and its just adventurist bullshit to take HRT if you aren't dysphoric

>>40496978 (OP)
its not supposed to be but it happens to be wrong

>>40496978 (OP)
i dont have a problem with it.
and i dont have a problem with people diy.
i like transmedicalism for all the free shit. (lives in a pro tranny state and they give me the world lol)
the only thing i dont like about transmedicalism is them policing estradiol levels and telling me its bad to go above 200.
which is why i support diy people.

>>40496978 (OP)
I just don't care enough about what other people are doing to their bodies

Hrt needs to be over the counter. Anything else is abuse.

Its proven to work perfectly fine

>>40497065
nta cause otherwise ur just a fucking man trying to invade our spaces. fucking ick

>>40496978 (OP)
fetishists need access to womens spaces too!

>>40496990
im transmed and im pro DIY. ive seen some be against it but i dont understand why someone would be transmed and against DIY cuz they acknowledge hrt is medically necessary.

>>40497391
Yeah how dare a trans women seek support after being violently raped, you're a good person, and not a piece of shit

>>40496978 (OP)
transmeds are dysphoric agps

hussies stay chill as always

>>40497131
If your estrogen gets too high it could turn into testosterone which would be the exact opposite of what you want

>>40496978 (OP)
because non "transmed" "trans" people are actually cis, and cis people are transphobic and outnumber real trans people a million fold so of course the people they oppress are evil and wrong, and the majority is never wrong or evil as history has shown.

>>40497431
Complete lie, wtf are you talking about

>>40497431
no it stays around 15-25 most the time in me anyways. i get labs done every 3 months.
which is on the lower end of female range and pretty good.

>>40497486
>because non "transmed" "trans" people are actually cis
lol this is actually why transmed is wrong
you can be completely transitioned and considered cis, just because you don't have the correct opinions
that's called ideology

>>40497513
if your opinion is that the condition you were born with isn't real then you are either retarded or, yes, cis.

>>40497559
lmao

>>40497513
i think that basing it entirely off of whether or not people transition ignores the different needs relating to the reasons people transition. i find that the lack of a transgender/transsexual distinction or something like that is just hurting all of us because we're having different conversations.

>>40497083
truth nuke

>>40497602
Transmeds strike me as people who can't handle difference of opinion, they need to be part of a group that agrees on everything

>>40497628
i mean i am a soft or ex transmed (idk i just think that most people don't understand how little of a choice some of us had in this) but i agree that many are dogmatic. especially the ones dumb enough to attack diy

>>40497628
unfortunately you're part of a group that thinks facts can be wrong and are a matter of opinion. the sky isn't blue, you don't need oxygen to breathe, I'm alive but I identify as a dead person. Dead people can be alive you bigot!

>>40496990
In principle this is me.
But gatekeeping was meant to traumatize you into giving up. The medical system should not be built to inflict unnecessary pain.
Your deep and visible suffering was needed to convince the religious conservatives who run hospitals that any of this should be allowed at all. I think Harry Benjamin even wrote as much in his book.
Do the religious conservatives of today look like they can be appeased, or do they look like they're about to kill us all?
This is why I can't be a real transmedicalist.
>>40497019
Transmeds are self-hating trans people who need a doctor to tell them that they're special and it's ok for THEM but not for all the other freaks that they in no way resemble at all.

>>40497704
you guys are really confused about what transmed means. it has nothing to do with diy or doctors

Basically this >>40497056. Medical gatekeeping ultimately just makes it harder for all trans people to transition, regardless of how trutrans they are. I'd rather have 100 faketrans get access to HRT than have 1 dysphoric person kill themselves because they weren't trutrans enough. The informed consent model is the best.
Also, all transmeds are future gaydens/transbians who try to larp as husstuss with the "logical normal tranny" meme so it's based off insecurity

>>40497721
>you guys are really confused about what transmed means. it has nothing to do with diy or doctors
I know there are some redditors who say that "transmedicalism is just the belief that you need dysphoria to be trans", but that's a retarded ideological belief that literally means nothing in reality. No one cares about what your definition of trutrans is. The real world consequences of transmedicalism are medical gatekeeping, which harms all trans people.

>>40497721
Can you help me out? What is a transmedicalist?

>>40497775
someone who believes you need to have dysphoria to be trans, like how you need to have cancer to have cancer. it's pretty simple stuff and comes naturally to most people.

>>40497737
preach

>>40497486
Transmeds unironically believe that a trans person who goes through years of HRT, goes through risky surgery, potentially damages their relationship with their family and puts their life and livelihood at risk to live a better life as the opposite sex is cis if they don't have dysphoria in the right way. Meanwhile a pre-HRT Redditor on r/transmed is totally freaking trans if they have dysphoria. It's like you retards totally reject lived experiences of trans people on the basis of some arbitrary religious idea of what mentality makes someone trans

>>40496978 (OP)
It's not.
>>40497056
This is true though, doctors don't have our best interest in mind. They'll keep out any number of trudysphorics just as long as only fuckable nymphets get to transition. Cissoids don't want to help real trannies, ironically, only faketroon nonhrt AFABS and husstuss homosexuals.

imagine you walk into your doctors office in programmer socks, uWu striped skirt, hugging a blahaj and wearing cat ears... only to see two framed pictures on his desk: pepe the frog and ray blanchard.
> what do?

>>40497822
Well yeah if that's actually all it meant I'd agree. Though it's hard to enforce. How am I supposed to know you're not just larping?
Your suffering means nothing to society. They only accept you if you're "convincing." Either passing or at other people can convince themselves you have a "male/female soul."
But the transmedicalists I've encountered end up hating informed consent and DIY and can barely contain their disdain for the majority of trans people, even and especially in trans spaces.
I've seen transmeds argue you should be gatekept unless it looks like you can pass. I've seen them argue you should have to be medically intersex. Even they don't care about your suffering.

>>40496978 (OP)
because there isn't any defacto test that tells you weather or not you have gender dysphoria/are trans so it's ultimately at the discretion of your doctor and that can be influenced heavily depending on who or where your doctor is.

>>40497431
>>40497508
that pathway doesn't exist. what can happen with excessive estrogen levels are prolactinomas, which are mostly benign brain tumors.

>>40497908
And I've seen non-transmeds who committed rape and murder! Scary, but irrelevant!

>>40497621
the purpose of transition is to reduce suffering, not getting your dick hard gooner

>>40497933
I feel like that's still better than self-ID

>>40497946
You can't just say "my belief is this" and then set up a bunch of clubs that kick you out for not believing the other secret axioms and expect us to go along with it.
You can't just identify as reasonable and ask us to pretend we don't see the batshit.

it's all pointless anyways... ppl that wanna get on HRT will get on HRT no matter what it takes. just like ppl who wanna do meth will get meth.

You're all just arguing about your own definition of transmedicalism, is it:
>you need HRT to be trans
>you need dysphoria to be trans
>you must go through the medical system to be trans
because without clearly defining it all of these statements have very different meanings

>>40498009
Having a belief does not make you part of a club. What clubs do is irrelevant. What people who hold a certain belief do is irrelevant. There are people who can believe in obvious facts but also hold hateful beliefs. To answer OP's question, there is nothing wrong with believing in a simple fact.

>>40497822
oh.
i have 2 or more diagnosis of that..
i still wouldnt mind if someone wanted to try estradiol or test without gd.
as long as theyre educated and understand what theyre getting into.

>>40498033
OP here. To clarify I had the "you need dysphoria to be trans" definition of transmedicalism when I made this thread

>>40498063
I see, In that case I don't see how transmed can be wrong. A cis male/female on estrogen/testosterone isn't transgender.

>>40498108
if they don't claim to be what's the problem?

>>40498136
no problem at all
now, are enbies trans?

>>40498155
i wouldn't say so, no

>>40497065
for me it's just like. life would be easier for you if you just stayed cis in that case and there's no real net gain to transitioning so it would just be a dumb idea

>>40498050
It's all irrelevant because none of us have any power. When beliefs enact change then they matter. Until then they're just unbaked schizoposts.

>>40497974
and I think you're stupid.

>>40498033
Trvke

>>40496978 (OP)
retarded tumblr import, /lgbt/ is a libertarian pro-DIY board

>>40500829
it's the other way around kek

/tttt/ has always been transmed, this was the original transmed community

>>40498063
can everyone self-diagnosis that they have gender dysphoria?

>>40496978 (OP)
Creates a shitload of hons, first by delaying access to care and second by typically selecting for one personality type.

>>40500839
Literally outing yourself as a newfag by saying this. The whole tucute/truscum thing with all the associated terminology started on tumblr, search all the keywords on the archives and you will find people were barely using any of this terminology until the last few years.
This board originally had a very stong libertarian streak, in keeping with what 4chan in general used to be like. It's always been pro-DIY and eager to find ways to circumvent retarded gatekeeping.

>>40497131
>i like transmedicalism for all the free shit. (lives in a pro tranny state and they give me the world lol)
Transmedicalism is not synonymous with socialized care.
>>40497431
This is quite literally impossible.

>>40500878
the terminology might have STARTED on tumblr but /tttt/ has always been transmed, anti-AGP, anti-transbian

>>40500878
trutrans has always been a thing on this board and transmed is not opposed to DIY, read the thread newchild

>>40498108
A non-dysphoric AMAB who goes through years of estrogen, life threatening surgeries, social transition and total legal change has more lived experience as a transgender person than a pre-everything closeted 16-year-old on r/truscum. Being trans isn't about what you simply "identify" as - there are actual experiences that trans people deal with that can't just be defined with identity. No one cares about your personal definition on transness when it clashes with everything that happens in reality.
Also, what does the "you need dysphoria to be trans" definition even accomplish in the real world? The only thing that "you need dysphoria to be trans" can lead to is "you need a medical diagnosis to get gender affirming care", which hurts everyone.
The truscum shit always seems like it's more preoccupied with arguing about definitions than what actually happens IRL. Reddit ideology

>>40500998
>years of estrogen
You say that like estrogen causes you pain or something. You get soft skin and man tits, how grueling.
>life threatening surgeries
Talk about exaggeration
>pre-everything closeted 16-year-old on r/truscum
Yup they're still more trans than you since they actually got dysphoria, bud! Hope this helps.

>>40500885
>This is quite literally impossible.
no but it is possible

>>40500930
>o-okay it's a tumblr import BUT MUCH BLANCHARD MEMES
confirmed newfag
>>40500950
transmed is all about how you're only a trutranssexual if you go through the gatekeeping process and get a diagnosis
in other words, RLE hons are trutrans, /lgbt/ diyers are faketrans

>>40500998
Stop gatekeeping! Didn't you guys say you didn't need to take hormones or have surgeries to be trans????

>>40501047
Do you think that trans people get killed for having dysphoria? No, retard, no one gets killed for simply identifying as trans or being personally dysphoric, because how you feel in your own head translates to nothing in real life. Being transgender means transitioning from one gender to the other, which can have nothing to do with how you personally feel.
And, again, what does this accomplish? If you keep saying that "you need dysphoria to be trans", the only logical conclusion is to gatekeep medical transitioning on arbitrary dysphoria, which hurts everyone.
>You say that like estrogen causes you pain or something. You get soft skin and man tits, how grueling.
>Talk about exaggeration
Are you even on HRT yourself? Medically transitioning changes everything about your body works. You are literally changing your sex.
Desu, this transmed shit oftentimes just feels like cope for not being able to transition. "I'm a woman because I want to be one, regardless of whether or not I live as one".

>>40501047
>Hope this helps.
You have to be 18 or older to use this site.

>>40501115
>Stop gatekeeping! Didn't you guys say you didn't need to take hormones or have surgeries to be trans????
The Tumblr transmed/tucute dichotomy isn't the only way to view things

>>40501134
no one is stopping you from "transitioning", just don't call yourself trans when you don't have dysphoria. by doing so YOU are denying the lived experiences of real trans people.

>>40501100
you need to go back.

>>40497065
>gender dsyphoria
is there a clear way to identify this? i'm sceptical of people in general and how they can make things up or just chat shit for any reason

>>40501216
>post-2020s touristwave newfag from reddit/twitter using tumblr terminology telling others to go back
this would be funny if you guys weren't the average user now

>>40501249
ikr, so sick of these faketrannies from reddit crying about le gatekeeping. YWNBT

>>40501240
No. That's why pretty much the entire medical community now agrees that informed consent is more efficient and leads to better patient outcomes.

>>40501265
trying too hard to fit in, newfren

>>40501276
said the man who trooned out to fit in with his fellow zoomers lol. every post of yours is projection

>>40501297
>seething this hard over being correctly identified as a newfag
holy kek

>>40501313
more projection, you were identified as a newfag when you made this post >>40500829

>>40496978 (OP)
People who don't think dysphoria is a medical issue don't want transition to be linked to dysphoria. These are also the "nooo you don't have to transition to be trans, love your bodyyy" types. In the real world, however...
"Stop conversion therapying gay children you pedophile"
>b-but
"It's just a fetish! Actually, we need to ban it for little kids under the age of 70! And no medicare if you're taking poisonous hormone drugs!"
>wait-
"I identify as an attack helicopter hahahahaha"
Now what? If it's a medical condition, not only can't they ban it, not only will insurance HAVE TO cover it, parents will be forced to provide their children with hrt and discrimination will be illegal because it's a medical issue that doesn't affect your ability to work. I support diy but I don't think you should be able to fault anyone but yourself if something goes wrong

>>40500998
Define gender dysphoria

>>40501100
Liar
How many trans youth have you helped to medically transition?

>>40501405
All the things you describe are exactly what has happened/happens under a transmedicalist model thoughbeit.

>>40501172
Someone who goes from one gender to the other is objectively transgender though. They transitioned their gender.

>>40501426
Yeah this, those people continue to exist regardless of the need for a medical diagnosis. Except now you need 10 years of therapy to be given HRT because it's a medical treatment

the problem is that "transmedicalism" comes from a time when you were strictly gatekept and forced to do RLE to get hrt, but once you got hrt and got srs you were considered a woman because you had a "sex change".
Nowadays if someone (particularly on /tttt/) calls themselves a transmedicalist, what they mean is that they believe that being trans is when you have dysporia and medically transition, and it's the reality of the medical transition and brain differences and stuff that means you changed sex. Its meant to be exclusionary of people who call themselves trans, but are actually cissex and don't medically transition. I think most people who call themselves transmedicalists are probably pro-diy, because medical systems are so bad for trans people and medically transitioning is so important.
But there are also people like brianna wu, people who are mostly conservative boomers or outright concern trolls on twitter, who call themselves transmedicalist and mean that being trans is when you have a diagnosis and a doctor's permission to transition. For these people it's the rule that makes you trans, not the transition.
this happened because a couple decades there wasn't any difference between these two positions, it was very very difficult to transition without a diagnosis and a doctor's permission, so the medical transmedicalist and the legal transmedicalist positions were basically the same thing. But now that gatekeeping is dead in many places and diy is easy, it's totally possible to be a medical transmedicalist without actually getting a diagnosis or permission from doctors. So lots of people say they're transmedicalist meaning you need to have dysphoria and medically transition, but anti-transmeds will read transmedicalist meaning you need a diagnosis and doctor permission.
the real problem is that we're using one word for two different general ideas because those ideas were the same thing decades ago, and it makes communication hard and strawmanning easy.

>>40496978 (OP)
Every transmed is a trender who inevitably detransitions. It's one big cope for people who are insecure about their own authenticity. They could simply laugh at hons and tunapoons without interjecting "b-b-but I'm a REAL troon!1 unlike THOSE people!" every opportunity.

No one cares. At the end of the day, we are all creepy glorified crossdressers who will never be taken seriously by normal people, no matter how bad the "dysphoria" is, or how well we "pass". Get over it.

>>40501434
real trans people do not change genders

>>40501529
>At the end of the day, we are all creepy glorified crossdressers
>no matter how bad the "dysphoria" is, or how well we "pass".
no, you are a creepy crossdresser trying to drag actual trans people down to your level
people like you are why transmedicalism is a thing

>>40497065
why would someone transition if they do not have gender dysphoria? not criticizing i just dont understand why would someone do something that radical if they do not feel they have something wrong with their body? i only transitioned because i had a repulse/aversion feeling over my male primary and secondary sexual characteristics and social dysphoria
>>40501240
i dont think that makes me trutrans (LMAO) or whatever bullshit but i do have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria with the code calling it a disorder and etc by a psychiatrist lol

>>40496978 (OP)
putting bodily autonomy behind medical professionals that operate as a for-profit entity is never good, it's bad in socialist systems too

>>40501426
>we can't do blood transfusions because mormons think it's satanic
>autism isn't real because my facebook group says it's just vaccine overload syndrome
>allergies aren't real, you just need to toughen up
Despite those lunatics existing, parents can be disciplined for medically neglecting their children. If it isn't medical, why not ban hrt possession just like marijuana? Why not make hrt possession a felony? Why not just let it be casually banned by insurance as not medically necessary? Glad you're not dysphoric so you don't need to worry about srs unlike us real trans people!

>>40501655
Yes with some caveats, harm reduction should always be considered. For example antibiotics is something that should probably be even more tightly controlled than it is considering the negative effects of antibiotic resistance.

In the case of transgender people though, the evidence shows that transitioning is overwhelmingly beneficial and there is minimal risk of harm to the individual and society.

>>40501615
>why would someone transition if they do not have gender dysphoria?
It's hot

>>40501584
>ACKSHUALL TRANS PPL

LOL good luck on your detransition in 5 years, just don't blame your failures on us

>>40501767
Transmedicalism has existed in the past and exists now, all it lead to was making care less accessible and worse for trans people. You also brought up "conversion therapy" which was and is legally sanctioned as part of a medicalised model of care.

people seriously can't tell the difference between "you need gender dysphoria to be trans" and "you need an official diagnosis of gender dysphoria to be trans"

>>40501863
There is no distinction. How can you have "gender dysphoria" without a diagnosis? "Medicalism" means to treat something as a medical disorder, meaning that arbitration must be relegated to a medical authority.

>>40501847
Not as bad as faketrannism, which has lead to... making care less accessible and worse for trans people! Funny that.

>>40501584
If you have to state you're better than others, it's a confirmation you are not.

>>40501883
You're right. You also can't have cancer without a diagnosis, it's a great life hack for beating cancer!

>>40501529
Also transmedicalism breeds detransitioners because transmeds don't feel comfortable exploring their gender in any way that makes them seem faketrans. They push themselves into identifying as 100% binary husstuss because they're scared of being faketrans, making it so they inevitably feel like larpers and detrans

>>40501883
>How can you have "gender dysphoria" without a diagnosis?
well if you get a diagnosis does that mean you didn't have dysphoria before the diagnosis?
do you think you can be trans without gender dysphoria at all?

>>40501903
This is a bad comparison. Mental disorders aren't the same thing as physical disorders. The criteria for mental disorders are oftentimes arbitrary. Psychiatry is evil

>>40501896
Since when does being trans make you better than cis people

>>40501790
antibiotics deserve to be more controlled than any drug yeah

>>40501952
>The criteria for mental disorders are oftentimes arbitrary
do you think you can be trans without fitting this criteria?

>>40501886
It's so much more accessible now when informed consent was not even a consideration. You're just being reactionary.
>>40501903
Correct, you can have the symptoms of cancer but as far as the medical system is concerned you do not have cancer before diagnosis. Though to compare it with trans care, if you suspect you have cancer, you are taken seriously and are able to receive appropriate care without first having to spend years proving that you're not a hypochondriac, you also don't lose access to care in the presence of comorbidities unlike trans people.

>>40501978
You're proving my point. All of those bullet points are the most arbitrary, vibes based traits possible that put the diagnosis at the discretion of the doctor. It doesn't even define what strong desire means. None of this is objective

>>40501999
the definition of "strong desire" isn't hard, look it up
do you think you can be trans without having a "strong desire" to be the opposite sex?

>>40501934
this isn't true. I'm transmed and a transbian lmao. I've been transitioning for 10 years this was just seen as the normal take to have when I came out. you need dysphoria to be trans because it would be retarded to do it otherwise. this isn't linked to anti-DIY beliefs

>>40496978 (OP)
I think the base assumption of promoting gender dysphoria as a mental health problem to be treated with medical intervention is fine and more workable than the vague identity-based focus other activists have ran with, but the rest of transmedicalism is based on a very naive assumption that medical gatekeeping will filter out the more embarrassing trans people or dumbasses who will detrans later.

>>40501959
exactly, the only people who get offended when they're called cis are cis people. it's so easy to spot a faketranny

>>40502024
What counts as strong? This is vibes based. You can very easily prevent someone from getting the care they need by saying their desire strong enough. Physicians should not be allowed to decide what I do with my body

>>40502057
don't jordan peterson me on the definition of "strong"
yes or no answer, do you need to want to be the opposite sex to be trans?

>>40501959
>backpedaling

Try this one:

If you have to state you're more legit than others, it's confirmation you are not.

>>40496978 (OP)
for a couple reasons
>reliant on the gender binary having an actual material basis and not a social concept
>reinforces gender/biological essentialism in order to justify trans existence
> in order to be trans you must experience gender dysphoria and gender dysphoria is a symptom of your brain not aligning with your body, therefore being trans is no more than suffering from a condition where something went wrong during fetus development akin to birth defects
>being trans means you should meet an arbitrary requirement of wanting to do girly things/guyish things.
>trans acceptance relies on conforming to the expectations of a cisgender society, despite cisgender society not being designed around the existence of transgender individuals.
>In order to be trans you must be medically diagnosed with gender dysphoria and this is a requirement before you can be allowed to take things like HRT. But as said in the previous point, this definition is one decided by a society that does not recognize transgender life, in order to be trans your trans feelings must be legally, medically, and psychologically confirmed by cisgender society and cisgender people. Only when you meet their requirements (that can change depending on the attitude towards trans people) to be categorized as a trans individual can you say your personal trans feelings or thoughts make you trans
Transmedicalism is an increasingly outdated view of what being trans is, it relies of the idea of transness being some kind of abnormality that you suffer from which we know is just not true. A major problem with the theory is that understanding the medical side of a trans person to figure out "why" they're trans has always resulted in conflicting evidence (we'd know more if the nazis didn't set back the study of gender and sexuality back possibly centuries). It's trying to add pieces to a puzzle from an entirely different puzzle box.

>>40502068
>do you need to want to be the opposite sex to be trans?
This is a different question. "Do you want to be the opposite sex" leads to giving people HRT based on whether or not the want it, that is, it leads to informed consent. Letting a doctor decide whether or not your desire is strong enough to be considered a medical condition is vibes based diagnosis

>>40502034
Happy 12th birthday

>>40502096
the fact that you can't answer is telling
>>40502101
"do you want to be the opposite sex" is basically what this >>40501978 is asking
you're a transmed who thinks that the medical system isn't reliable, which is fine. Thinking the NHS is bad isn't the same as being against medicine.

>>40502097
>tangible reality exists and this offends me to my core
>please call me valid before I have a mental breakdown!!!!

>>40502141
Who here is advocating against medicine? Transmedicalism is bad because it leads to medical gatekeeping. If you're a transmed who is against medical gatekeeping, you just have a personal belief on what "gender" means

>>40502097
>>reliant on the gender binary having an actual material basis and not a social concept
"dysphoria isn't real for me so it's not real for anyone"
wow it's just like I'm talking to a cis person, huh...

>>40496978 (OP)
>Why is transmedicalism supposed to be wrong?
because it goes agains the "power of the mind" model and would exclude a lot of nowadays trannies

>>40502147
>>tangible reality exists and this offends me to my core
They literally explained why transmedicalism is not based on material reality.

>>40502164
>Transmedicalism is bad because it leads to medical gatekeeping. If you're a transmed who is against medical gatekeeping, you just have a personal belief on what "gender" means
so you're a transmedicalist with a personal belief on gender?

>>40502177
You can be extremely dysphoric while acknowledging that gender is a social institution.

>>40502097
>in order to be trans you must experience gender dysphoria and gender dysphoria is a symptom of your brain not aligning with your body, therefore being trans is no more than suffering from a condition where something went wrong during fetus development akin to birth defects
I mean, that's the justification for offering hrt as part of medical treatment for trannies. if it isn't a problem, you can't justify it anymore.

90% of this thread will be dead or detransed in 5 years

>>40502203
what are you dysphoric about, your haircut?
some people are actually dysphoric about their body

>>40502190
woke gender abolitionist faketrannism is the ideology that isn't based on material reality. trans people exist, bigot.

I am more skeptical of surgeries since those are expensive and involve frankensteining my tissues around, so they should be reserved for people actually terrorized by certain parts of their body. But honestly hormones sound like a hell of a deal.

>Here is a thing that tells your body to express its feminine characteristics
>Less likely to kill you than drinking
>This miracle is like 10 bucks a month

I just think at that point, why wouldn't a tranny want it?

depends on your definition i think. i'm transmed in the sense that i view transsexuality as a medical condition, but am a strong advocate for diy and self-id at the same time. putting out fates in the hands of a kafkaesque medical system is a moronic thing to wish for imo.

>>40501863
idk i think autistic people tend to have everything dysphoria

>>40502097
>> in order to be trans you must experience gender dysphoria and gender dysphoria is a symptom of your brain not aligning with your body, therefore being trans is no more than suffering from a condition where something went wrong during fetus development akin to birth defects
yes because that's the whole reason I'm doing it, otherwise it's just an exercise in bodymodding and I might as well be one of those people that get plastic surgery to look like lizard people. Which in the very least is something that will never get supported by medical insurance.

>>40497395
Here in the USA we have a thing where you can ask the doctor for HRT and you just get it, no bullshit beyond that besides blood test and a liability waver.

>>40502362
i think in theory its the best of both worlds because there isn't much bullshit to put up with, but dumb trannies still get medical guidance and you have someone to sue if medication is defective.

>>40502097
To continue
The question of "is there a medical or biological component to being trans" isn't the issue nor is advocating for going thru professionals to figure out if your problems are due to gender dysphoria or something else. It's fair to say there should be at least some kind of baseline expectation for someone to be considered trans like having gender dysphoria but the major issue with this (and why transmedicalism is a faulty belief that falls apart once scrutinized beyond the surface) is that this baseline is by it's nature an arbitrary prerequisite that can be expanded on shrunken at will. No matter how much people cope about transtrenders drinking all the testosterone as a genuine problem somehow, the reality is that being trans is something that you just know, it's not something you decide to just dabble in for a summer just to make 100% sure you aren't. Social conditioning plays a major role in our development and that conditioning is done by a patriarchal society that operates on a gender binary that puts men above women, queer people, particularly gender queer people, do not have a place in this society. Both being gay and being trans were once seen as mental illness akin to paraphilias like pedophilia. Yet trans and gay people continue to exist despite societies effort to file it away as some outlier abnormality because it did not fit into the mold of society that humans made for themselves and ignorantly tried to explain nature and biology as operating within our perception of the world. We then used this perception of nature and biology we forced to meet our expectations to reinforce why the way society exists as it does as being natural. Men are above women and those are the only two genders with only one expression of sexuality and both are expected to operate in a specific way. Biological and gender essentialism, transmedicalism attempts to make queerness conform to these pseudosciences.

>>40501268
Ironically it's also the argument to ban HRT for transition

>>40502700
Why would you ban it though, we let people drink and that's even more dangerous. Maybe trannies don't NEED hrt (after all we have had thousands of years without synthesizing 17b-estradiol) but like, why would you deny it now that its an option and some people are so fond of it?

>>40501053
What enzyme is responsible for converting estrogen back to testosterone?

>>40496978 (OP)
I have my opinions on the various reasons one might take cross sex hormones, but I believe it should be accessible to all. I don't think you need to see a therapist to transition. I don't think you need permission to live your life.

>>40502097
>reliant on the gender binary having an actual material basis and not a social concept
Stopped reading there. Nontrivial segments of gender have material basis, and the only way to pretend otherwise is to play word games.

>>40502721
>we let people drink and that's even more dangerous.
1-800-COME-ON-NOW

Besides, the why of the ban is irrelevant, if it isn't a lifesaving procedure it's a cosmetic that can be banned by capricious whim alone.

>>40502791
I mean, maybe some people would kill themselves without HRT, maybe for others they are just doing it because its something they can do. Why question it, just go with it it obviously makes them happy.

>>40502824
>Why question it
Murphy's Law. I advise you to stare long and hard at HOAs and the personalities that bring them about, and then ask whether transition access should have the same cosmetic argument as "what length should your front lawn be?"

>>40502844
Some people genuinely need to transition or they will rope, for others maybe they sorta would have been ok without it but now that its an option its all they ever wanted. By barring the second group, you need lengthy medical diagnosis which tortures the first group unnecessarily. It is most efficient and maximizes happiness to simply allow both to transition.

>>40502885
>Some people genuinely need to transition or they will rope
Then make that your argument, aka medicalization.
>By barring the second group, you need lengthy medical diagnosis
Not a requirement. Simply medical diagnosis with a sufficiently low miss rate.

All of which is irrelevant to the point, which 8s that id you make your argument nonmedical, you make it trivially bannable by people who like to ban things.
>but they'd never
>gestures around

>>40501525
Reddit transmedicalists vs. 4chan transmedicalists
>>40501886
Back in the glory days of gatekeeping weren't youngshits de-facto banned by nobody being willing to help them?
Paper after paper quoted the nonsense figure that there were around 10x fewer transsexuals than intersex people, by the strict definition of intersex.
>>40502101
>doctor decide whether or not your desire is strong enough
I don't think it should be mandatory for adults but it's probably not a bad idea to have your head examined before chemically castrating yourself to improve your mental health. Not to validate your trutrans nature but to exclude some other condition as the cause of your struggles.
>>40502721
The argument to ban HRT is that we're demons and imps that must be destroyed. They've said as much out loud. Everything else is obvious pretense
.
Political transmedicalism is a waste of time because conservatives will simply ignore your science and substitute their own hallucinated by chatgpt.

>>40502921
>conservatives will simply ignore your science and substitute their own hallucinated by chatgpt.
Conservatives don't decide policy. The 5-10% of swing voters who at least nominally believe that empiricism exists regardless of their IQ are who decide policy.

>>40502919
If you wanna play up the transmedicalism stuff to get retarded normies on board that's fine, this is just how I see it in a more accurate manner.

>>40502934
Tell that to Texas, which is working on a bathroom ban in a special session just for fun.
Everything's gerrymandered to hell. Voters don't decide shit.

>>40502921
No one can control what those bastards think, in fact if we were still doing the public crossdressing humiliation rituals they would still be finding ways to fuck us over. You gotta convince these people that trannies aren't anything to be afraid of, I don't know how thats gonna happen but it sorta happened with the gays.

>>40502953
>Tell that to Texas
Which has enough conservatives to make a >10% margin.
State bathroom bans are preemptively by acts of congress and title VII rulings, for which even conservative judges (Gorsuch) can produce surprising outcomes. And both of which are federal, which brings us back to the 5-10% of national swing voters who decide policy who do actually believe in the scientific method.

Which brings us at last to, "it's actually retarded to say don't bother with a medical argument because CHUDS will just ignore it." Because chuds don't decide elections.

>>40502611
Last thing I wanna mention is that most truscum are just terfs who are forced to accept the reality that they're trans because it's just become too obvious to explain away. Since they have a deep sense of self hatred for this reason they go out of their way to justify why they're actually the "true" trans people and in order to also be one you have to meet an ever changing list of criteria and above all else you need to hate being a mentally ill sufferer from gender dysphoria. If you don't do these things then your identity is invalid. The majority of terfs are reppers who funnel constantly having trans people on their minds into some weird for of feminism that they consider radical. It's just an excuse to explain their entire time is spent fixating on trans people despite not being one and constantly reassuring themselves that transmen are just young women that were groomed into thinking they were men and trans women are men who put on a dress so that they can go rape women in girl's bathrooms. This delusional spiral that is not proven by reality will continue in a weird psycho-sexual obsession until they finally move on to being one of the good troons. Coincidentally the overwhelming majority of truscum are FTM and a good number of them will tell you that the only thing they don't agree with terfs on is trans people not being real since they're one of the special transmed approved tranners.

>>40502993
I hope you're right but I don't have a whole lot of faith in the courts to block these things.
Youngshits are already banned by state law in more than half of states and by federal interpretation of federal law, and clinics in blue states are backing down and abandoning their patients.
>>40502971
RLE is so catastrophically worse for optics I can't believe anyone supports it, even if they think we can win over conservatives.

>>40503075
>I hope you're right but I don't have a whole lot of faith in the courts to block these things.
To be clear, I don't either, but I think it's a much better gambit to try and persuade that 10% max of normies that there's real need and a real medical condition.
Notably,
>Youngshits are already banned by state law in more than half of states
This happened almost as a direct line result of WPATH and the AMA lying about evidence for years, which significantly eroded trust and made conservatives sound sane in comparison on trans issues.

>>40503075
I think the way to win over conservatives is to "concede" the sports thing (not that anyone cared), and figure out how to make a clear distinction between clearly faggy trannies and the pronoun police.

Your center right American guy just thinks we are toothpaste haired idiots who don't know what a chromosome is. I think the idea of a bunch of autists who like an alternative endochrin system is more palatable once you can get used to it, and is very sympathetic.

This was my experience with tranny stuff, I repped for a long time since I diden't even know what the actual tranny experience was supposed to look like and I thought it was all the pronoun crap.

>>40503118
>This happened almost as a direct line result of WPATH and the AMA lying about evidence for years
NTA but can you explain this a little further? I thought the WPATH was always recommending people get hondosed.

>>40503128
you wouldn't sway the genuinly hateful people, but I think it works on people like my dad who aren't really very political and just think the far left are annoying

>>40503139
They normalized telling parents "dead kid or trans kid" to get approvals, since 2013. Lots of public articles and statements on it. There was and is no documented correlation between youth transition and suicide rates. They knew it was unsupported by evidence and said it anyway.

>>40496978 (OP)
who said that? reddit trannies? twitter trannies? lmao

>>40503128
this founds very stupid reading it, but theyfabs are genuinely the only exposure to trannies a lot of us get for most of our lives and it really makes it hard to take anything tranny related seriously

>>40503171
there's a decrease in suicidal ideation. i experienced this, i was having nearly constant suicidal thoughts when i trooned out (i was 16) and now ive gone years without having them.

>>40503323
>there's a decrease in suicidal ideation
Which has yet to be replicable, and it doesn't matter anyway because that's not what was claimed. Gender clinicians weren't saying "your kid might think about killing themselves more." They were told "they will kill themselves, statistically."

>>40502766
Feel free to disprove that statement without falling on reactionary sentiment. The only material reality of binary gender is the exploitation of women as child bearers for men's benefit. Except this is sex which no one will argue the definitions on. What aspect of the class based social hierarchy of a binary gendered society is justified in it's reinforcement and continuation of? Are all men naturally superior to all women? That's obviously not true, humans vary greatly based on genetics. As in nontrivial I assume you mean things other than men liking sports and women liking makeup, so please explain how the nontrivial segments are predicated on a gender binary and not that the gender binary is a social construct humans developed based around the obvious existing differences between the two sexes. I'm sure shrugging off my entire statement as word games means you've got a firm reason to think otherwise despite practicing even a little bit of dialectical materialism on the subject will always bring you to that answer being the material reality we exist under. So feel free to educate me on this material basis for a concept we fucking made up to better organize society thousands of years ago. I'm sure whatever it you'll say wont just be 40 iq gender essentialist non sense about men and woman just being biologically driven to fill the roles of their gender cos...well they just are. Very convenient for men how these arguments always seem to end up putting women in a position that is always subservient to men and that's just how society is meant to be.

>>40501903
but if you don't have a cancer diagnosis you can't get any anti-cancer med even if you really have cancer
the same way transmedicalism lead to trans people not having access to hrt and geting treated like fakers because they don't have an official gender dysphoria diagnosis

>>40503128
...yeah.
Earlier in my transition I came out to people because I thought they already knew but I wanted to give them permission to acknowledge it for some reason. The reactions I got were mind blowing.
My favorite was "But you have boobs!" Yeah what'd you think the point was?
It's amazing how far we haven't come from Jerry Springer depicting us as men tricking other men into sex.

>>40503384
>Feel free to disprove that statement
Rates of assertion and aggression in males, with behavioral consequence which we lump in with gender.
Rates of neuroticism and social cohesion with females, with behavioral consequences which we lump in with gender.
Not reading the rest of your gigantopost, so if your response is just to excise problem behavior from gender, lol, and have fun with that.

>>40503384
That may be the theory but the reality is because I am female shaped, I will be treated as if I'm of the child bearing class even if I'm completely incapable of bearing children.
Doesn't matter if I'm intersex, trans, or just infertile.
They don't do a DNA test before passing you up for a man because they think you might take maternity leave.
I didn't transition to do the submissive and breedable shtick, or because it felt like destiny because I played with dolls as a child or whatever. That's dumb. I needed to, to the extent that such things are medically possible, become a member of the female sex.

>>40497431
Not how it works. You might be thinking of how testosterone converts to estrogen when its levels are too high, which can fuck over trans men and is how cis roiders can get gynecomastia.

>>40503340
yeah i admit i don't know anything about that part of the process because my parents were smart enough to support me

>>40503457
>because my parents were smart enough to support me
Might want to ask them if their support was extorted using a medical lie at the endocrinologist office

>>40503390
its kinda sad, the tranny experience can be a beautiful thing I kinda pity them for being unable to comprehend it

>>40503470
they took me to the endocrinologist because i came out to them and told them i had gender dysphoria, and they wanted to help me transition.

>>40502281
fuuuuuck I think I have everything dysphoria. I really identify w trans ppl but..

>>40503031
>Coincidentally the overwhelming majority of truscum are FTM
My two cents, FtM transition is less likely to be viewed as deviancy. Where MtFs have their feelings acknowledged and shit on (Who cares, be a man), while also being insinuated they are predators-- FtMs are more likely to seek validation and awareness of their feelings at all (What girl hasn't said they wished they were a boy). Especially when most truscum are under 18s without hrt, while being surrounded by shallow activism in the media- they seek rigidity and basedence to justify their pain when they are, ultimately, a young girl with short hair. Being crass to prove their masculinity only makes it worse.
I legitimately do not understand where the idea that a large chunk FtMs are closet terfs came from. Truscum-ism is just "I'm not like other girls" ideology, trying to prove to their parents and peers that they are trans.

>>40503945
>I legitimately do not understand where the idea that a large chunk FtMs are closet terfs came from
it comes from ftm repeating terf talking points with man/woman replaced with amab/afab before detransing and becoming terf

>>40503997
Tbhon I could see it being misogyny, but I never see any FtM babbling directed at MtFs, it's all so superficial.
I only see pseudo terfism among theyfabs. Not to further not-like-other-girlism, but that's just what I've observed, women who want to label men as predators, girl power becomes afab power. That is largely absent in die hard trucummies, who are more likely to view (or profess they view) women as stupid.

>>40496978 (OP)
i dont like authorities telling people how to live their lives

>>40496978 (OP)
Because no theyfabs getting extra victimhood points for free. I'm transmed and I'm not even anti enby, there's just nothing trans about anyone who isn't on HRT.

>>40500930
surely not... have you had a look around?

>>40500866
transmed who is pro-DIY but expects you to get a real prescription firsy

>srs and ffs cost about the price of a studio apartment in my country
>poor
>insurance pays for surgeries because it's considered a medical solution to a medical issue

do people not understand that demedicalizing transness is a shot in the foot for poor trannies?
like really what do you people think is harder, lying to a doctor to get a diagnosis or getting rich enough to afford srs+ffs?

>but... but gatekeeping...

yes let's avoid gatekeeping surgery on dysphoria so we can now gatekeep it on money. very clever so valid waow

>>40506778
Have you considered that you don't need either forms of gatekeeping? That is in fact an option.

>>40506836
True, just make FFS and SRS an HRT free for everyone, including cis people without a diagnosis. That seems like a realistic goal that'll take less than 50 years to achieve.

>>40506836
yeah sure let's just dismantle capitalism, what your plan for that?

cause other than that how do you plan to convince insurances to pay for something that isn't a medical necessity

>>40506865
>FFS + SRS
Triaging.
>HRT
This can easily be over the counter and would cost peanuts.

>>40506879
>triaging
i thought we were against gatekeeping

>>40506892
You can do this with an informed consent model.

>>40507103
and once again what is your plan for making insurance pay for srs+ffs

because trenders are transphobic

>>40496978 (OP)
because they were told social constructivism is the answer to everything and now treat it as dogma
anything that goes against the dogma is obviously evil
defending the dogma is much more important to them than the harm they cause others

listen:
if you're non-op, then you're cis. it's just that shrimple.
this enrages the trenders and so they made up some name to call the people condescending them. transmedicalist.

you have these people that don't understand that demedicalizing the condition actively makes access to treatment worse as consevatives can withhold services. so when you wonder why one group hates the trenders it's because the trenders are trying to take away their healthcare under false-pretenses.

>>40496978 (OP)
What is transmedicalism?
It seems like the LGBT and especially the transgender community in particular has created a whole new language around words and vocabulary that already existed for a long time.
Why relabel everything?
Does it make life more palatable if things have different names?
As an example:
If transgerism has been with us throughout history why is there a push to relabel everything?
Intellectual curiosity nothing more.

>>40502114
I'm 27

>>40507491
it just means you need dysphoria to be trans and nonbinary isn't real but people are trying to attach a bunch of beliefs not attached to it to it on here like anti-DIY or HSTS only, when it's never included that in any community

>>40507355
altho i dont consider myself a transmed, i actually agree w u here... like, until I have srs, calling myself a woman is just biologically wrong. I have a pp and theres no way around the fact that makes me male.

>>40507516
Are you saying that people are trying to create or establish psychological conditions that would warrant HRT treatments?

>>40496978 (OP)
because I'm a nonbinary person with dysphoria and according to transmedicalism I shouldn't exist. There's also transmedicallism inevitably resulting in more bureaucracy involved in transition and making transition take longer, and the desire to find a scientific explanation for being transgender in order to counter transphobes misses the fact that transphobes wouldn't care about that explanation, but those aren't as clear cut of a proof against it.
>>40496990
>but i kinda agree that you should only take hrt if you have gender dsyphoria
I disagree; anyone should be allowed to do whatever they want with their own body
>>40497056
also this

>>40507580
I did a ; instead of a : fuck

>>40507544
>I have a pp and theres no way around the fact that makes me male.
that isn't a "fact" though, the category of biological sex is a thing created by biologists and non-biologists for the sake of conveniently explaining reality and is not a thing that exists

>>40507580
>anyone should be allowed to do whatever they want with their own body
As you probably know the issue with pursuing any type of medical treatment a doctor looks at every single thing through a lens of liability.
A doctor's primary concern is giving something to someone or doing something to someone that may cause harm or incure liability.

>>40507608
>dicks and vaginas aren't real!
you know how retarded you sound?
a penis is a social construct and not a biological reality?

>>40507621
>As you probably know the issue with pursuing any type of medical treatment a doctor looks at every single thing through a lens of liability.
that's why we make hrt available over the counter, it's like how the individual is responsible if they overdose on vitamin gummies

>>40507580
>>anyone should be allowed to do whatever they want with their own body
so steroids should be legal and body builders should be allowed to be juicy af. it's not dangerous or anything...

>>40507580
nobody does science to counter bigots
and you clearly do exist, but whether or not your self-identification as nb has anything to do with anything else is what ppl question
a binary trans woman can self-id as nb because these two things are not on the same continuum

>>40507623
>you know how retarded you sound?
strawman aside dicks and vagainas are real, but there's no universal body that says "dick falls under the category of male and vagina falls under the category of female" us humans decided to make those categories and we decide what falls under them. The things contained within those categories might exist but the categories themselves are fabricated.
>a penis is a social construct
your words not mine

>>40507656
>so steroids should be legal and body builders should be allowed to be juicy af.
yes
>>40507657
>and you clearly do exist, but whether or not your self-identification as nb has anything to do with anything else is what ppl question
and I'd rather not have that questioning. I just want to go to the store and get some hrt without having to go through several layers of bureaucrats to "confirm" I actually "need" it.

>>40507580
what's between your legs?
oh you have no plans of surgically altering them?
you're a cis bad faith actor undermining the healthcare of others

>>40507608
yeah dogshit actually

>>40507690
>oh you have no plans of surgically altering them?
>t. baseless assumption

>you're a cis bad faith actor undermining the healthcare of others
and your resort to name-calling shows you don't want to engage in good faith

>>40507685
should cocaine be legal?
what about heroin?
there's reasons drugs aren't legalized for public consumption without medical oversight.

>>40507638
>Over the counter
So you are comfortable with children buying or shoplifting HRT treatments from stores?
Do you feel children have the development to self treat?
And also who becomes responsible for a child who may be traumatized and possibly suicidal if things go wrong?
The parents, the store, the government?
You have to consider the results of any medical experimentation and yes transitioning is certainly not an ironclad science.

>>40507708
yes they should be... this is just excusing away insufficient education

>>40507706
your identity is founded in bad faith and you act like you're morally superior for it.
if identity is immutable then why did you cone out as non-binary after 2015?
you weren't always nonbinary in the same way a gay man was always a fag. that implies it's a learned behavior. it's not a gender expression.

>>40507708
>should cocaine be legal?
>what about heroin?
yes and yes, but at the same time usage of those drugs should be discouraged as much as possible and the conditions that result in people resorting to those drugs should be fixed to minimize their usage as much as possible.
>>40507713
>So you are comfortable with children buying or shoplifting HRT treatments from stores?
if children are allowed autonomy over their bodies
>And also who becomes responsible for a child who may be traumatized and possibly suicidal if things go wrong?
presumably the child if they have said autonomy
>The parents, the store, the government?
or those people if the child lacks autonomy, but if the child lacks autonomy then they wouldn't be fine to buy those goods to begin with.

>>40507685
if you use terms that refer to something else to refer to another thing ppl will question it
there isn't much you can do about that except change the entire society
you also don't need to tell ppl that you are nb, because feeling non-feminine, non-masculine, or androgynous existed long before the newer label of nb
in that sense declaring an nb identity is a political statement that comes from a political movement, and that will always draw attention, similar to neurodiversity

>>40507737
>your identity is founded in bad faith
lmao
>if identity is immutable then why did you cone out as non-binary after 2015?
why are you just making stuff up about me and then pretending it's real. can I do the same to you?
>you weren't always nonbinary in the same way a gay man was always a fag
you are nonbinary yourself and are being cringe on boards dot four chan dot org because you are an evil anon. See I can also make up random stuff about you

>>40507750
Children don't have autonomy for a reason.
Children are not capable of providing for themselves or making informed reasonable decisions.
Children most often live in a state of unreality where they are protected by others.
How old are you cause you sound a bit immature in your reasoning and I think that is why many people who believe they have gender/sexual identity issues don't receive treatment.

>>40507580
please describe your nonbinary dysphoria, I'd like to understand

>lmao
this is them laughing uncomfortably because they've been called out and have no rational defense for their position. if the trend started in 2015 and you came out post-2015, then you're a trender.

nonbinary people don't understand how a transsexual feels, but they want special victim points so they can cry bully others arbitrarily. every nonbinary person acts as such to assume social control.

what bathroom do you use when out in public?

>>40507818
> rofl
FULL. BODILY. AUTONOMY.
if they wanna fuck themselves up let them fuck themselves up. no need to play white knight and the anti-trans lobby doesnt care either way.

>>40507818
Honest question
What's the difference between a bisexual and a non binary person?

>>40507751
>there isn't much you can do about that except change the entire society
okay and?
>you also don't need to tell ppl that you are nb, because feeling non-feminine, non-masculine, or androgynous existed long before the newer label of nb
yes but it's more convenient to just say nonbinary, and none of the words you said completely describe my gender.
>in that sense declaring an nb identity is a political statement that comes from a political movement
being nonbinary or trans in general is a non-political thing that people (who aren't themselves trans) have decided to politicize.
>>40507788
>Children don't have autonomy for a reason.
if they don't have autonomy over their body then it stands to reason that they wouldn't have access to things that would give them control over their body.
>you sound a bit immature in your reasoning
how so?
>>40507798
it's pretty similar to binary trans people I think, my body doesn't line up with how my mind inherently thinks it should and that causes me distress.

>>40507788
oh also
>Children are not capable of providing for themselves or making informed reasonable decisions.
depends on how we define "children" because plenty of minors in plenty of countries are able to provide for themselves

>>40507872
>my body doesn't line up with how my mind inherently thinks it should and that causes me distress
what does it think it should be?

>>40507872
>being nonbinary or trans in general is a non-political thing that people (who aren't themselves trans) have decided to politicize.
this is simply incorrect, but trans is non-political, however nb is part of a social political movement, in the same way that neurodiversity is an advocacy political movement
you even state yourself political goals such as what amounts to dismantling the trans care apparatus, and that has nothing to do with anyone being trans or not, it is inherently political
it is a tension you actively choose to engage with and then cry foul

to be perfectly clear on this, I am all for some medical anarchism, but I just don't think it's in good faith when it has to start and then end with dismantling the trans care apparatus
which would do untold harm and leave a lot of ppl that desperately need particular care in limbo

>>40507900
having more of either the effects of testosterone or estrogen, I won't say which one because then people will say "you're just an indecisive they(m/f)ab" or something like that

>>40507872
You are calling for over the counter HRT therapy essentially in drug stores where children and minors could steal the obviously available medicine.
Autonomy literally has nothing to do with it.
If someone wants something bad enough and they can swipe it off the shelf or order it online then age or autonomy has nothing to do with it.
I'm asking your age because of your reckless uncaring attitude towards society and individuals by saying
>I don't give a fuck about the impact on anyone else I want my HRT available without prescription or approval.

>>40507910
>this is simply incorrect, but trans is non-political
nonbinary is a subset of trans and thus trans is non-political
>you even state yourself political goals
yes and such goals are separate from my status as nonbinary. Other nonbinary people can and do have separate or opposite political views.
>such as what amounts to dismantling the trans care apparatus
not a dismantlement but a restructuring to allow for easier access to trans medical aid.
>and that has nothing to do with anyone being trans or not
so does it or does it not? make up your mind.
>but I just don't think it's in good faith when it has to start and then end with dismantling the trans care apparatus
>which would do untold harm and leave a lot of ppl that desperately need particular care in limbo
okay but I never said anything about "dismantling" anything. My one and only statement on that matter has been that "I think hrt should be available over the counter".

>>40507889
Do you mean like a homeless child with no parents in a war zone or living on the street in pure survival mode. Do you seriously consider that autonomy.
Can you name one autonomous child who can rent an apartment or a hotel room?
Stop being a douchebag.

I'm not trans. I want to be a feminine man but testosterone is ruining my body. Why does it matter if I'm trans if I'm suffering?

>>40507859
oath says do no harm. if you wanna cut your own legs off, go for it. if you need someone else to cut your legs off for you, then you have to play by their rules.

if you wanna go dive down a flight of stairs so your fetus dies, go for it.

you're right to liberty ends when it involves the liberties of others. meaning, you can't force some doctor to do something they don't agree with.

you wanna cut your own tits off? go for it. you want someone else to do it for you? you play by their rules. that's how cooperation works in social situations.

>>40507866
rule of D
bisexual man? closet gay
bisexual woman? spicy straight woman

nonbinary afab? spicy cis woman
nonbinary amab? coping cis man

Transmedicalism is just right. There are two versions: that you're trans if you have dysphoria, or that you are trans if you are medically transitioning. You can believe one or both. Although many transmeds are anti-DIY, it's not part of transmedicalism.
The real truth nuke that comes secondary to transmedicalism is that if transition is a medical procedure, then you should assess transition as a tool and consider its effectiveness before using it - basically, if you don't want to be a giant honbeast but fail ANSUR badly, you shouldn't transition.
Many a suicidal hon has been created by the promise that all it takes to transition is a special female sense of self and a crossed pair of fingers.

>>40507949
if you don't identify as either gender you can't have a valid transition as there is no end goal grounded in reality. that means they're not transgender. if your transition doesn't go anywhere, then you didn't transition. that makes you cis (congruent in sex).

>>40507923
>You are calling for over the counter HRT therapy essentially in drug stores where children and minors could steal the obviously available medicine
this issue is not specific to HRT and applies to all pharmacies. Stores can be robbed that's a different problem anon.
>If someone wants something bad enough and they can swipe it off the shelf or order it online then age or autonomy has nothing to do with it.
okay but the same thing applies to any other product, this still isn't an issue specific to HRT anon.
>I'm asking your age because of your reckless uncaring attitude towards society and individuals by saying
ignoring your strawman I think you're just using this as a shield to hide behind because of your unsound arguments.
>>40507952
well once you can actually answer the question of what you count as a child I can answer that question.

>>40507984
>if you don't identify as either gender you can't have a valid transition as there is no end goal grounded in reality.
the end goal for medical transition is having the full effects of my desired HRT. I think I've made that clear already dumbass anon.

>>40507986
should we go back to using asbesto? by your logic they totally should be allowed to

>>40507994
you're cis.

what genitals do you have? oh you don't feel a compulsion to have them surgically altered?
congruent
in
sex
cis

>>40507997
>by your logic they totally should be allowed to
my logic is that people who have autonomy with their body should be able to do whatever they want to said body. If a person wants to use asbestos on their private property then they should have that freedom but as soon as those asbestos are non-consensually consumed by other individuals with autonomy that falls out of the bounds of what I'm arguing.

>>40508027
>as soon as those asbestos are non-consensually consumed by other individuals with autonomy that falls out of the bounds of what I'm arguing
so which bathroom should nonbinary people use? by using either the mens or womens room you are deliberately subverting their consent.
if you use either the men's or women's, guess what you identify as? binary~

>>40508057
>so which bathroom should nonbinary people use?
gender neutral washrooms
>by using either the mens or womens room you are deliberately subverting their consent.
so anon just breaks up my argument, re-arranges it, adds some stuff I didn't talk about, and I'm supposed to just ignore that?
>if you use either the men's or women's, guess what you identify as? binary~
this by extension means that all closeted binary trans people that have used the washroom are in fact cis, and that any trans person can be converted to cis if they are placed into the right washroom.

Autonomy guy is derailing the convo anyway because transmedicalism doesn't necessitate a particular access model.
You could have transmedicalism and believe that a strong, centralised national health service should evaluate people before granting access to treatment with strict criteria.
Or you could have transmedicalism and have over the counter HRT for anyone who self-assesses as dysphoric.
Most transmeds want more gatekeeping because they're sick of Norwood 5 weirdos claiming to be trans while they're on trial for double rape and being able to get away with it because social constructivism says you're trans if you say you are.

>>40508083
you're arguing in bad faith. gender neutral restrooms are not universally available. that sounds like you're talking as someone in a position of privelege

>>40508121
>Autonomy guy is derailing the convo anyway
and definitely not all the people that decided to focus on that part of my argument rather than the stuff that actually applies to transmedicalism.

>>40508121
sorry samefagging but if the rights movement hadn't promoted social constructivism and had instead stuck to medicalism, the when these rapist-goes-trans people appear the world would know they aren't trans because they would have never had a documented history of symptoms of dysphoria of any kind.
Sudden declarations of trans identity out of fucking nowhere don't really fly as easily under transmedicalism as they do under social constructivism.

>>40496978 (OP)
After seeing noah's public GC meltdown I'm a convert to truscumism.
Some people should be gatekept. Sorry to say.

>>40508166
That softly spoken boy on YouTube?

>>40508151
>sorry samefagging but if the rights movement hadn't promoted social constructivism and had instead stuck to medicalism, the when these rapist-goes-trans people appear the world would know they aren't trans because they would have never had a documented history of symptoms of dysphoria of any kind.
and why does that matter anon? Transphobes will still call us rapists regardless of if any trans rapists actually exist so it can't be that.

>>40508188
you mean pedophiles would call other people pedophiles to distract you? like the numerous number of pastors arrested for cheese pizza or trump claiming he didn't write jeffrey a happy birthday letter?

>>40508188
It matters more than what people will call us. Under social constructivism we are rolling out the red carpet for freaks to transition if they say so. As a result, they are doing so. Look up Clive Bundy - add "Galvin" to clarify the search. Goes by Claire Fox now after a life of child raping.
If people are allowed to do that because "they'd call us rapists anyway", then it becomes rational to restrict the public lives of all trans women.
Why would you let trans women into any women's spaces if there is nothing to stop Clive Bundy from becoming a trans woman and nothing to reassure you that the next trans woman walking in is not just like him?
There are more freakish, violent men than there are dysphoric trans women. We're creating a situation where the majority of trans women are just sex freaks.

>>40496978 (OP)
because as a trans person you can NOT trust the fucking retarded crown eating 1 day of endocrinology doctors who will overdose you on spiro and give you .2mg of e. how tf would they know about gender and shit??

also fundamentally I think people should be allowed to take hrt whenever they want as a form of body alteration. the only reason theres troons who are bad for optics is because repping broke their brains and they coped too close to the sun.

>>40508215
>the only reason theres troons who are bad for optics is because repping broke their brains and they coped too close to the sun.
In my opinion, this is the cope. The reason there's sex pest trannies is that they weren't treated soon enough? Most of them never even considered transition until they hit 50 and have a midlife crisis.

>>40508210
>It matters more than what people will call us
okay then answer the question
>If people are allowed to do that because "they'd call us rapists anyway", then it becomes rational to restrict the public lives of all trans women.
no it doesn't? "one person that wears glasses in england was a rapist so we're restricting the public lives of all people that wear glasses" what kind of dumbass logic is that.

>>40508151
>he when these rapist-goes-trans people appear the world would know they aren't trans because they would have never had a documented history of symptoms of dysphoria of any kind.
how would you know since almost all symptoms of gender dysphoria are self-reported?
unless you think someone should only be seen as a valid trans woman if they have a medical diagnosis from a doctor, which lead to gatekeeping and a worst care for trans people

>>40508177
He seemed more animated? I dunno there's a lot of people on youtube.

This human: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT6hHmhGL/

>>40508340
omg why does he shill now? WHY DOES HE SHILL? also what's up with his armpit hair?

>>40508340
That's who I meant yeah! Hmmm, he does seem more ticcy, frustrated and autistic than I had given him credit for in the imagination of my memories.

>>40496978 (OP)
For me at least it's not that transmedicalism is wrong, but the communities that coalesce around it are pure cancer and I'd rather spend time in some self-ID wokefest that, while annoying, is still bearable by comparison. Bunch of uptight neurotic weirdos that take it upon themselves to be the gender KGB obsessing over what the "right way" to be this or that is. As an ideology there aren't any major flaws, but I'm a big believer in the communities that result from the ideologies telling you a thing or two about how useful or meaningful it actually is, and transmed communities are filled with joyless narcissists. And I don't want to be a joyless narcissist, so in general I oppose transmedicalism as a "movement," even if the basic idea is probably correct.

>>40508246
That's not the logic, the logic is that if we allow men to transition then because men outnumber us, it will become true that most trans women are in fact men. And thus it will become necessary to treat us as men. Where is the part that is hard to follow?

>>40496978 (OP)
i know transmedicalism is all about gatekeeping or whatever but what should we call the subset of people who dont consider you trans if you dont at least diy?

like the ones that dont believe in self id and all that shit, because that too used to fall under the same label of transmedicalist as they were the ones that started the whole "you need dysphoria to be trans" (vs the infamous "tucute" "you dont need dysphoria to be trans"), like what would someone who supports diy but doesnt like nontransitioning nondysphoric trans people be called

>>40507949
It isn't a subset of trans. It's a subset of the trans umbrella which is an entirely different idea.

>>40508340
what makes faketrannies think they can mansplain what it's like to be trans top kek

>>40508472
>It isn't a subset of trans
it is

>>40508448
Tucute wasn't just about not needing dysphoria. It was about saying that being trans was a lifestyle choice and nothing more.

>>40508482
No it isn't. It isn't found in the brain and doesn't have anything to do with gendered natal development.

>>40508482
Look up the history of non-binary before you post.

>>40508507
>No it isn't.
yes it is
>It isn't found in the brain
it's found in my brain bc I'm also in there
>and doesn't have anything to do with gendered natal development.
who cares

>>40508518
>Look up the history of non-binary before you post.
I did and the "trans umbrella" in the context that it is brought up is functionally no different to the term "transgender"

>>40508448
They are transmedicalists! That is transmedicalism.

>>40508256
In the rapist case you'd know through retrospective analysis: now that you are claiming to be trans in the middle of your trial, let's examine to see if there is ANY evidence that this is true? Social constructivism tells us there cannot be evidence, that evidence is irrelevant and we MUST believe or we are transphobic, since claiming to be trans is being trans. Trans medicalism tells us that there could be evidence and we don't have to believe if we don't want to because being trans is a medical condition that people can either have or not have. It enables the moral possibility of saying "while you COULD have been repressing I suppose, I find the lack of evidence and the suddenness of the claim, in this context, NOT compelling".
If claiming to bet trans is being trans, no such option exists.

>>40508498
yes thats what transmedicalists got from it, not needing dysphoria already sorta implies that, but that point of view just sounds more twisted by an actual transphobes understanding of it

>>40508579
transsexual transfeminists on xitter keep saying its not because they insist transmedicalism is only about gatekeeping muh diy hrt while considering the groups i mentioned to be "cissexual" as in they havent changed their sex

>>40508520
Trans is found in the brain and non-binary is found on your Twitter profile. It's very simple.

>>40508616
It's not transphobic, it's what they actually claimed.

>>40508670
I don't use twitter anon

>>40508682
Then you're just a pretend non-binary too. Very delusional.

>>40508655
Yea I'm seeing the twitter/reddit transsex people too. But they're just like normal transmeds: the core of their philosophy is that GD is a health condition and the think trans people are the ones who treat it with transition, and then sugar on top they want to gatekeep somehow so smelly people can't be associated with them as easily.
Since they don't want to gatemen HRT, their method of gatekeeping is the same as the other woke movements of the modern era: shaming on social media. They spend a lot of time screenshotting hefab and theyfab Munchausen/factitious disorder trans fakers from TikTok and sneering at them as a way to gatekeep their community.

>>40508737
(samefag:) the irony of this is that shaming Muchausen people leads them to induce symptoms as a way of finding proof, so this practice creates a lot of FTMTF detransitioners who start out claiming trans for attention, do the "I don't need to be in any way masculine to be a trans man" attempt, get bullied for it, take T not because they want the changes but because they want the proof they're really trans so people will stop saying they aren't, and then get dysphoria because of the inevitable unwanted virilisation

>>40508737
It's better than selling HRT next to the cheetos and beer at the store, but then you would get carded and cry about that too.

>>40508758
carded for E? what about huh youngshit creation program?

>>40508616
Everybody that was around for the early tumblr era knows how absurd the rhetoric got. There is no sugar coating it or claiming they had real genuine concerns. Most truscum were FtM too which you either forgot or didn't know.

>>40508792
They're not going to sell it like candy anon. Don't be a retard. I am taking your arguments seriously, you should do the same and follow it to its logical conclusion.

>>40508798
What kind of rhetoric? I only became degenerate and social media brained late on. I held out for a while.

>>40508812
I don't mind I want gatekeeping anyway I'm sick of freaks. I've been on 4T4 lately and they're crashing out from getting "gyno" after 1 month E and crying that they have no hope of passing (true) because what they really want is to be pretty. Trutrans hons just honmode imho, but these kids are literally taking E for bullshit reasons and they trying to kill themselves. Annoying bunch of retarded faggots.

>>40508818
Just dumb shit that 11 to 13 year olds cook up. Unironically spouting off like they figured out the world.

>>40508835
Fuck! HRT works? Why did nobody tell them? Who is going to take responsibility for this abuse?
Everything about this timeline is so utterly fucked.

>>40508359
OMG it's not just me! I've never grown that much. Is that normal or does he have 3000ng/dL T or something?
>>40508480
What he describes is pretty bleak but it's hard for me to say whether it's accurate or not. I am an extremely improbable human so I transitioned on tutorial mode, and I don't really care about getting laid.
I've seen friends and acquaintances get weird stares though, and I've heard about worse.

>>40508835
Do you have any examples of kids like that or are you just talking out of your neovagina

>>40502362
isn't that way more expensive?

>>40512139
No difference in the eyes of your insurance. Only depends if the doctor's organization and your pharmacy accepts your insurance, and if your insurance covers HRT (Usually it does, unless it specifically excludes trannies)

>>40503031
Damn Im truscum just don't realised this

>>40511400
just have a look at the sub... all youngshit transbians

>>40507580
>anyone should be allowed to do whatever they want with their own body

It's always luck

>>40511400
Straight from puss homeslice