Thread 40800331

im tired of trans women who actually, sincerely believe the new bullshit liberal explanations for why they exist.

>stop calling yourself "biologically male"
chromosomes just exist to modulate release of sex hormones. HRT IS in fact LITERALLY changing your physical expression of sex, which is the aspect of sex that actually matters!
(a chair is not table if you use the wood to make a fucking chair, because it's "table wood")
You are not suddenly "biologically female", but you are still moving on a spectrum of physical sex to be significantly less biologically male, so stop calling yourself one!!

>you are not a "real girl"™ because your doctor said so, or because dysphoria "revels" you true innate nature is incompatible with your sex
the medical frame for trans people exists because we were historically pathologized like gays, and it only persists to give us access to medicine by preserving a "medically necessary" justification for why we deserve legal consideration, insurance coverage, and to ethically justify medical intervention. IT IS, AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN A LEGAL FICTION, and IT IS NOT REAL.

like consider seriously for a moment: you think because you form a strong desire to live as the other sex, and develop a deep dislike for your body (dysphoria), it "reveals" your "true" nature? And that a doctor is meaningfully verifying this for you by meeting with you a few times for 60 mins, instead of just covering their bases before allowing you to transition???

The entire history of this medicine has trended away from its bullshit explanations towards the reality: wanting to live as the other sex is just something some humans want to do. its just a human phenomena.

Internal gender natures are not "real" things. They are relations to a social thing. and that is FINE!

ITS OKAY TO HAVE DEVELOPED A WANT TO LIVE AS A WOMAN FOR SOME ARBITRARY DEVELOPMENTAL REASON. THERE IS NOT AN "ESSENTIAL" MALE NATURE THAT UNDERMINES THIS DESIRE, JUST A SOCIETY THAT HATES YOU

yeah, and? i'm not explaining all that shit go a normie and a mainstream political party can't push ideas that complex. you can't meme it either. it's just radical feminism / gender is a social construct, which, while technically correct, is memetically unfit/unappealing to the target audiences of social media, parents, doctors, and coworkers

>>40800331 (OP)

>what about brain sex
brain sex is just variations, but there is no substantial proof that it links directly to and proves an "internal gender" rather than relating to other sex processes. or just being meaningless difference. statistical mosaics relating pre-hrt trans women to cis women is cool, but also proves very little in regards to some "essential neurological basis of social sex".

>B-b-b-blanchard!! AGP AGP!!
you are even more retarded, and are just doing the same shit, but also trying to maintain your internalized self-hatred for being trans, and conservative and misogynistic perspective on women. either that, or you have someone close to you who thinks about gender this way, and are anxious to be justified to them, and away from those "other trans people"

AGAIN!!! If you SINCERELY believe any of this stuff "objectively" makes you trans, its because you are a stupid anxious child desperate to justify yourself to a society that hates you, because the only other option is being construed as a degenerate.

its rational. but also wrong!

>gender abolition is ______
gender abolition is a feminist thing you do not understand, because you a child who does not read books, and you are 2 days old to being a woman. it'll become relevant to you the first time you get raped, or lose on a promotion, or realize a majority of men in your life no longer respect what you have to say nearly as confidently as before. until then, stfu when other women talk about it

>>40800331 (OP)
trvke but also yeah its not easy to explain to people

>>40800331 (OP)

Somehow your explanation for transgenderism is even worse than the liberal ones.

Sex is about reproduction. If you have the ability to sire a child, you are undeniably 100% male.
If you want to talk about changing your sex, go ahead and get rid of that capability of yours, and then we'll talk.

> IT IS, AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN A LEGAL FICTION, and IT IS NOT REAL.

So is your status as a women if you get a legal gender change


> wanting to live as the other sex is just something some humans want to do

Because they have a fetish e.g. AGP

>>40800364
i dont care if you dont want to explain this to cis normies. i dont either. just dont be a fucking retard that sincerely believes in it.

that said, on the legal and academic side rn, shit is DIRE because this sort of stuff has proliferated. and a substantial number of trans people DO sincerely believe it.

>>40800386
yes, you are a TERF and therefore a retarded bigot desperately invested in the insurmountable difference between the sexs. thank you for your contribution.

>>40800331 (OP)
biological sex is the most retarded thing ever because, first, when you talk about sex in this context, it is obviously biological (it is just used the remove the absurdity of calling trannies males). second, it is a trash definition that does not encompass every individual, even when considering biology in general (including non-humans). so, it is a definition that must be improved on
also every day that goes by, science supports more and more gender as "brain sex". without it, you cannot justify sexual and social transition as a treatment for transgenders

>>40800386
>If you want to talk about changing your sex, go ahead and get rid of that capability of yours, and then we'll talk.

what are anti-androgens?
what is sex-reassignment surgery?

do you think that this is some spiritual reproductive capacity permanently fixed to me?? how tf do you think reproduction works?

>So is your status as a women if you get a legal gender change
what do you think legal gender status is for? and what do you think legal fiction means? i'm really curious

>Because they have a fetish e.g. AGP
>>40800398

>>40800386
reddit spacing

>>40800413
>when you talk about sex in this context, it is obviously biological (it is just used the remove the absurdity of calling trannies males). second, it is a trash definition that does not encompass every individual, even when considering biology in general

yeah no shit its redundant and reductive. but its the term popularly used in this discourse. im not going to start my post with those semantics.

>science supports more and more gender as "brain sex".
not it doesnt. it supports very little of the sort.

>without it, you cannot justify sexual and social transition as a treatment for transgender
>>40800376
yes, that is why many of the medical researchers invested in it. and sure, go ahead. the "critical" science is literally just as cynical and hackish and politically motivated at this point.

the fact is that there is no "scientific" reason for you that "justifies" you to be considered as a woman in some fundamental sense. ACCEPT THAT FACT AND UNDERSTAND THE POSITION YOU ARE IN. You are still a human person and part of an empirically observable phenomena of humans who want to live as the other sex. That IS enough to justify you to yourself. Its not enough for society, but you have to face it, and make it enough for you.

>>40800430
>illiterate newfag who only browses fast boards

>>40800447
>yeah no shit its redundant and reductive. but its the term popularly used in this discourse. im not going to start my post with those semantics.
I explained why it is still used despite being redundant and reductive...

>not it doesnt. it supports very little of the sort.

>FACT
>I do not believe in it
just to be clear, I support full body autonomy, but yes, gender is brain sex

>>40800386
got it, so by castrating myself and becoming infertile i have in fact changed my sex
thank u terf sama :3

>>40800386
sex is about sexed traits. infertile women are not meaningfully less female

>>40800331 (OP)
Arent there niche but real differences in bio sex beyond just hormones? Like transwomen respond to certain medications differently from cis women.
Strongly disagree on the second point tho, i am innately feminine and that made living as the male gender difficult and painful to the point of being suicidal. I didnt choose to be a woman, being trans is not fun. I think this is just a self report that jeeps dont actually understand dysphoria and are appropriating it to justify their fetish. Which is the real problem imo, there are trans people who have a psychological need and there are other people who should still be able to do what they want with their bodies but could comfortably live as a man if given no other choice.

>>40800471
>I explained why it is still used despite being redundant and reductive...
genuinely are you ESL??? my post is agreeing with that part of your point.

>just to be clear, I support full body autonomy, but yes, gender is brain sex
>NO IT ISNT
>YES IT IS
>NO IT ISNT

look im not interested in the slog of engaging brain sex studies on 4chan with nerds who dont do science.

There is an arbitrary scope for what brain sex would encompass. Behaviorists think its a whole spectrum of behavior traits and preferences that are more common in men than women, but this research is always being redone and better studies undermining previous ones (infant toy preference for example being disproved).
Neurologists have differing opinions, some have the idea that brain sex is a very narrow thing relating to some sort of body map, and there is some evidence to support that, but it is very weak still. The mosaic studies are the worst and essentially treat brain structure as a black box we can statistically analysis for similarities and differences, and then draw those things to.... ????. Its an arbitrary scope of gender, that usually is proposed to "potentially" satisfy whatever that particular team's perspective on essential behavior differences is: is it behavioral preferences? the "fundamental" ones?

Fact is, it might just be some brain structures (in differentiation to cis men) are just related to exposure to estrogen and progesterone, and MAYBE are weakly related to some behavior differences promoted by difference in hormones. And for the statistical mosaics that overlap with pre-hrt trans women, it could just be related to certain types of preference women and trans women are repeatedly socialized into. This could even be true of structures we relate to body maps!! for all we know, ruminating heavily on having a female body "literally" changes the brain.

Still, none of this shit is tested when you go into the doctor. You wonder why that is?!?

>>40800331 (OP)
i never call myself biologically male (literally in what context would i do this?)
i call myself a real girl because i am a real girl according to the definition of girl which is a social thing.

calling social constructs fake is an extremely reductive way of viewing it

>>40800559
>look im not interested in the slog of engaging brain sex studies on 4chan with nerds who dont do science.
holy redditor

>>40800511
>Arent there niche but real differences in bio sex beyond just hormones? Like transwomen respond to certain medications differently from cis women.
yes, because some medications interact with sex hormones

>i am innately feminine
>I think this is just a self report that jeeps dont actually understand dysphoria
>there are trans people who have a psychological need
>>>>(and therefore there must be some special innate physical thing that proves my essential nature)

you are literally the person i am talking to. it actually doesnt prove shit.
and that is FINE

ive likely been trans for longer than you. I was ALSO suicidally depressed for years because of dysphoria. I even attempted suicide. You are not more "real innately feminine natured trans woman" than me by your measure. People like you who are so heavily fetishistic towards your "femininity" as proving yourself to yourself, you refuse to acknowledge how disgusting of a standard that is to even start with. Are cis-women who dont express or feel that same type of femininity mentally "non-women"?
Yes, dysphoria is also a real psychological phenomena and can be severe, granted it is also encouraged on by having to exist under a framework that uses it to prove your "objective feminine spirit" so you can change your body. Im specificlly disputing that it proves something physical, which it doesnt!

>What do you replace it with?
>What makes you a woman then?

well you dont have a choice with the rest of society.
dysphoria and innate identity are the pervasive narratives. but you can start by building more of a spine towards accepting your own identity and desires.
>you are a woman because you live as one.

>you live as one because you deeply prefer to live as one.
>you are female because you changed your body to be more female than male, and it collapses to that within a forced binary frame.
thats it

>>40800572
not my point. i never called social constructs fake.

>>40800610
ive been here far longer than you faggot

>>40800682
>not my point. i never called social constructs fake.
im agreeing with you anon

>>40800682
>ive been here far longer than you faggot
did I call you a newfag or a redditor?

>>40800331 (OP)
>(a chair is not table if you use the wood to make a fucking chair, because it's "table wood")
but you wouldnt say the wood is not wood or would you? after all it is the table and chair that are human constructs not the wood itself. chairs and tables are artificial and wood is natural. in the same way sex is natural and gender is artificial. the biological aspect is natural and quasi random and the social aspect is made up to serve a function for humans.
Another analogy would be plant grafting. It occurs naturally in nature where two plants fuse together. Just as intersex and transgenders do occur naturally. But by human intervention humans have seized upon this ultimately beneficial technique to boost disease resistance, improve fruit quality, and modify the fruit size. Here now we have human intervention again at work with facilitating further gender affirmation.

>>40800331 (OP)
I don't want to argue over whether trannies change sex or not. Seems like a waste of time and just makes you look ridiculous. Don't you know what most trannies look like?

>>40800759
im not interested in engaging brain studies on here because its a tedious fucking slog to do seriously when the only person that will seriously engage me is going to be a retarded stemlord faggot that's going to appeal to p-values, regurgitate a conclusion, and cant understand meta-critiques anyway, and then just calls me AGPs. i know this because ive done it plenty of times before and its exhausting.

and its a fast board so any real researched effort just fucking disappears in 12hrs. not "because it's 4chan"

fuck off

>>40800802
i dont care what you want to argue. i care what you sincerely believe about yourself.

>>40800772
women and men are not "different materials" or in a philosophical sense different "natural kinds" because they are not categorically distinct: meaning there cannot be a smooth transition from one kind to another. we are different forms of the same materials. HRT works because hormones work to sex differentiate the same way on all human cells and any given point of development, regardless of chromosomal sex.

transition is an artificial intervention of a natural process, but is more similar to using a good compost to allow a plant to grow better (artificial hormones are after all bioidentical to human hormones). you are not grafting two "kinds" of things together.

>>40800665
No you just project your experiences onto me because youd rather deny my existence than allow me to be accepted by cis people while you still have to justify yours. Cis people get wanting to be normal, transition makes me more normal while for you it makes you less so. They dont understand how you could want to be the other gender more than you could want to be accepted. Unfortunately thats the vast majority of visible mtfs since those of us who want to be normal just stealth at this point

>>40800331 (OP)
uh, based department?

>>40800331 (OP)
Amazing that a thread presumably about lifting transwomen up spends the majority of it's effort beating transwomen down for hypothetically believing in any concept of gender essence that suits them.

>>40800917
cope. youve drawn a strawman out of your own prejudice against queer trans people. what makes you think anything about my post is advocating against assimilation? your want to be normal doesnt *justify* anything objectively either and that is my point. that "want" is why we were all so invested historically in every iteration of trying to explain ourselves a "real women" in some way that will gain us acceptance.

also i am stealth in most of my life, but keep telling yourself you're natural and different and a special real woman hon <3

Trans women are not real women. Stealth means keeping your true identity secret because it's not a real woman's identity. Breaking stealth means being honest. Real people don't have to lie about being real.

>>40800963
>beating transwomen down for hypothetically believing in any concept of gender essence that suits them
yeah because im tired of mixing arbitrary spirit gender phenomenologies and pseudoscience into how we teach new trans people to understand themselves.
this isnt a live and let live. its incoherent, its mostly just confusing to individuals, and it's actively harmful to advocacy.

>>40801018
Is it really, though?

>>40800995
youre on some "a trans/black/tall woman is not a real woman because then why would you need the qualifier" type shit

>real people dont have to lie about being real
uuuuuh baaaased huhuh frfr

>>40801032
I think you missed the point. If telling people about your real origins is going to change their perception of you, then their perceptions of you are not aligned with who you really are. There is a misperception. Tall and black women don't hide being tall and black, so it's a dumb comparison.

>>40801018
>arbitrary spirit gender phenomenologies and pseudoscience
what is the argument in favor of gender being a social construct?

>>40801026
yes. for one, it's emotionally and epistemically harmful to individuals to have to desperately cling to and internalize bad and regressive explanations for themselves when they are vulnerable and need anything to accept themselves and explain themselves to others.

and politically the liberal explanation for trans people has become increasingly incoherent to cis people. and us trans people cant even agree on basic questions: "what is being trans", "what is a woman", "what makes someone not trans", etc.

we are then as a result entirely subservient to our "objective explaination" by the medical community consensus and articulation of trans experience, which is REALLY FUCKING FRAGILE, and contingent in large part on their financial interest in trans medicine. and that is basically the entire basis of the dominant narrative that feeds the liberal political argument for considering trans people, so once it collapses, and it will very gradually as liability is introduced, and more researchers start to "objectively" verify the efficacy of trans medicine, there is nothing to replace it.

liberals in the UK couldnt resolve trans people with feminist narratives, interested parties shook the medical consensus narratives, and look what happened.

>>40800982
Youre not getting it you just keep projecting and mansplaining the same shit over and over again with reddit formatting
You could have been accepted as a man if you never transitioned. You wouldve been sadder and worse off for it, but people would treat you like a man. I never had that option. That doesnt make me more valid, its just easier for cis people to accept. Idk how i can make it any clearer. If you were like me i wouldnt have to explain this, but youre not. Im over the denial. Taking estrogen doesnt make you a woman btw, being treated like one does

>>40801105
What do you propose instead?

>>40801105
>us trans people cant even agree on basic questions: "what is being trans", "what is a woman", "what makes someone not trans", etc.
That's because even trans people can sense something is wrong with their argument when faced with a particularly ridicolous hon. All of trans justifications rest on passoid shoulders, which are slender and weak, while all of transphobia rests on the strong and manly shoulders of hons. If you had to bet on which one will break first, which will you choose?

>>40800331 (OP)
Based.

>>40800477
>sex is about sexed traits. infertile women are not meaningfully less female
yeah they are that doesn't mean that they are less women, this is the fucking point, a trans woman is less female than a cis woman and she's still a woman, a PCOS woman is less female but still a woman
Bimodal sex is a thing you know

>>40801205
based and truthpilled

>>40801112
>says im mansplaining and then explains my experience to me
>im special and different! youre a man and im not!
also
>taking estrogen doesnt make you a woman btw, being treated like one does

i never said this either. physical transition makes you more female. being a woman socially makes you a woman. not that different, except again, your line compels your own anxieties
>im only real when others say im real
therefore
>anything that justifies me most essentially and is most widely acceptable is and MUST be true

also, you do not know what reddit spacing is

>>40801114
at least convincing trans people to be on the same fucking page here. and weeding the "special girls" who bitch and cry about being told their "feminine essence" isnt something they can objectively prove, from speaking authoritatively on trans experience.

>>40801119
kek

>>40801055
bump

>>40800331 (OP)
BASED.
death to predeterminism, be it fascist, conservative, liberal, or marxist!

>>40801223
>being a woman socially makes you a woman.
I've been taking hrt for 9 years and wanted to be a girl every day since I was 12, 16 years ago, and I have an internal sense of identity/self that feels bad at the idea of not being a woman and I'm crushed by dysphoria constantly but nobody in my life respects me enough to treat me like a woman so I'm a man.

Thanks for making me feel better with your uplifting thread.

>>40800331 (OP)
in reality purely biological, purely genetic, but also purely social explanations have been abandoned by anyone serious and active in the last 3-4 decades
just rehashing stuff that is like trying to bring back alchemy, cos that's how the internet is
just saying everything is all made up is also just a descent into nihilism and solipsism, lacking any explanatory power or justification for the world
way smarter ppl than me have already rejected such conclusions pertaining to sex and gender (that it is either meaningless or a social construct) decades ago
I guess the best way to resolve the problem would be to develop a new scientific stance...
like some kind of first-person relational science that accounts for intersubjective verification and seeking to understand the natural world in terms of self-reproducing systems and collectively organizing systems that collaboratively bring forth a meaningful world from the microscopic to the social where it just becomes some kind of collaborative sense-making...
you might be onto something... wait a second... gosh darn it!! they beat us to it decades ago!! why does this always happen?

good talk, good thread, lets do it all over again tomorrow

>>40800477
and that's where the whole thing becomes really obvious
we're supposed to be "less female" for not having a uterus but nobody would hold cis women with no uterus to that standard.
you can't even meaningfully put male-female on a single dimensional line.
and there's a lot of screeching about reproductive capacity here but there's a ton of different variables. it doesn't meaningfully make sense to consider a trans woman who has been on estrogen for half a decade male if you want to understand her blood count results. hell her balls probably don't even work although maybe they could again with the right stimulus. it doesn't make sense if you want to evaluate her hormone levels either (and in fact returning her to male levels is actively harmful to her). trans women, like cis women with testosterone-producing tumors, should just have the testicles removed. this is generally considered self-evident in cis women but subject to so much hair-wringing in trans women.

it's all about enforcing our position as second-class citizens. no matter what we do they do not want us to cross that line and meaningfully be female. when presented with evidence that we've done it at least in context, they go crazy. even our so-called allies. which explains why post-transition people can experience so much trouble receiving medical care.

>>40800963
>you're telling me theres a singular explanation that suits all of us
>wait, so I can't force my old coping mechanism on other people?

>>40801294
>>theres a singular explanation that suits all of us
>>40801277
I'd love to hear it.

I thought we agreed upon "If you identify as a woman you are one" but that's apparently not good enough for the big brains in this thread.

>>40801277
what do you want me to tell you??
im not responsible for making you feel better about yourself here. your relation to gender is still a real thing, it certainly proves you are trans, its just not some essential feminine/woman essence that all 'real women'™ have.

>nobody in my life respects me enough to treat me like a woman so I'm a man.
i pretty explicitly say otherwise in the comment you are replying to. and contrast my position with someone apparently does think that.
youre not "not being a woman" for facing transmisogny.

>>40801282
schizo

>>40801303
>If you identify as a woman you are one
this is, and always was a terrible ideal. renders woman/man meaningless for the sake of maximizing inclusivity. conservative were right about it.

its atomized, non-material, and not a SINGLE cis person believes this definition. they just smile and nod.

>>40801401
read a book and maybe balance your 4 humors next time before posting an incoherent rambling thread like this

>>40800376
Ive been raped before and still talk about gender abolition. But I think its more men need to come the fuck back down to earth and I hate them :3

>>40801440
I hope God gives me an explanation for what all this trans stuff is in actuality before he sends me to hell.

>>40801586
>you strongly desire to live as the other sex
>therefore you live as the other sex.

thats all there is to it. and its enough

>>40801459
lol
>in reality purely biological, purely genetic, but also purely social explanations have been abandoned by anyone serious and active in the last 3-4 decades
sorry this line is just so deeply serious and unserious

>>40801282
>complains about other explanations being rejected dead-ends of science
>my totally original non-dead end idea? intersubjectivism!

lol

>>40801656
tell that to the ppl doing serious research that moved on from it decades ago when social media and 4chan hasn't
>>40801666
>when someone picks out one word and doesn't parse it correctly, making it obvious they don't understand the commonly used jargon

>>40800331 (OP)
whatever you believe about gender (personally i agree with you here) these liberal b ideas are best served to win us medical rights and social respect. >>40800364 is exactly right, we can talk all this talk in private but pathologisation and transmedicalism is probably the front we should present to genpop

>>40801775
t. delusional 4chan tripfag

my explanation of transness is too serious and scientific for you anon

>>40801908
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp3b-RXtz4w

>>40801868
iunno, you will get you's on 4chan, upvotes on reddit, and rt's on x, it's exactly like taking agp as a serious discussion

>>40800331 (OP)
>Internal gender natures are not "real" things.
Yes they are.
>THERE IS NOT AN "ESSENTIAL" MALE NATURE THAT UNDERMINES THIS DESIRE
Wrong.

>>40800884
you can always point to the spectrum fallacy to dismiss any type of separation for purposes of classification. if you look at the complete evolutionary record we could posit humans and bonobos are not in fact their own species but a single species with a small DNA variance and noticeable difference are just based off of gene expression. if the common ancestor were still alive this gap would shrink even more so. but the basis for the classification of the species as with the sexes lies with reproductive compatibility. for the purposes of classification of different species reproductive isolation is used. for the sexes it is gonadal differentiation where the undifferentiated embryonic gonad develops into testis or ovaries.

>>40801864
i really dont care about arguing transmedicalism here. this is about setting straight understandings between and for trans people.

frankly, that route failed in the UK and we were directly undermined BY the legal and medical reliance on pathologization. there is also no seperatist movement that would be treated any different now politically, so id recommend getting that idea out of your head if its still there.
see >>40801105

>>40802026
yeah idk what to say dude. women arent a different species? like at least use neanderthal and homo sapien. some people argue they are a different kind in some sense, but its a rare opinion and only had on a much looser definition of a natural kind.

pretty recently there were some rat studies that turned their ovaries into non-functional testies. one day we'll have bioidentical uteri grown from organ scaffolds.

chairs and tables dude, not hawks and cheetahs.

>>40800331 (OP)
>STOP EATING THEIR SHIT!!!
I'd eat a transgirl's shit...

>>40802105
That's the trouble with taking one semester in philosophy, you exhaust your arguments too quickly and now you have to scramble which will just make it sound sloppy. Speciation had a natural kinds problem too fyi. Had, past tense.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/natural-kinds/
>Since kinds are revealed by science, a science can revise which kinds it holds exist: phlogisticated air was regarded as a kind until after Lavoisier’s chemical revolution. A science can even question a whole category of kinds, or sort and classify kinds differently as the science changes and new knowlege is gained. Before being superseded in this regard by the chemical elements, biological species were taken to be the best exemplars of kindhood. Yet now it is somewhat controversial to state that species are natural kinds.

>>40800331 (OP)
All transphobia is misandry. They hate that men might get to live as women and gain their social perks.

>>40802186
lmao! took me a second to realize you were talking about him.
i actually did have a philosophy of language professor that thought species were rigid designators AND natural kinds, so im charitable to entertaining it.

>>40802105
its just a classification and definitions. if you get it for one it sounds like you are being willfully ignorant because you cant grasp the other. its the same concept.
im not saying post humanism cant be a thing and that transhumanism wont get us there or cant be a thing too. im looking at it from an amoral perspective. and you from an immoral perspective. cherrywoods and maples not chairs or tables. humans and puppies not teslabots or dog AI robots.

>>40800331 (OP)
I don't believe in Blanchard bullshit but like, doesn't the existence of dysphoria kinda dismantle this whole argument? (besides the blachardism brainrot) Like being male makes me wanna kill myself, I feel pain from having masculine traits, so don't I have an inner brain sex bc I'd otherwise not feel anything? Or if not that then what is the explanation behind dysphoria?

>>40802320
dude youre saying that repoductive capability (ability to produce offspring) is a basis for classifing species as naturally distinct in some special distinct way (something heavily contested), and then applying it to sex (defined specifically as role in reproduction which IS a different thing from reproductive compatibility) to classify a natural seperation as if its meaningful in the same exact way (which its not), so that you can construe woman and men to be unbridgeably and fundamentally distinct "natural" categories (wood into "not wood"). (again supposedly amoral, but alot of this "natural" stuff poping up. smells normative... hmmm)

like idk. this is uninteresting. sex is more similar than you think, and is bridgable! youre obsessed with some idealized natural seperation, prob, if i assume you are an average person, because you fetishize the categories and what they represent.

>>40802319
I'm talking about the person I replied to. chairs vs table, hawks vs cheetahs. All concepts are constitutively fuzzy, you're not making a point here. A lot of the thread has poked enough holes in OP's argument to go back to the drawing board for another year. Don't drop out to argue with internet trannies before you finished learning.

>>40802417
saying that feeling a pain towards masculine traits "proves" brain sex feels nice, right? its a really satisfying explaination: "i know im a girl because being a boy hurts, and this is a unique phenomonology that proves im trans"m and idk maybe if it it was "just" body maps. but it extends to facial hair, body hair (which cave women certainly didnt shave), and gendered preferences far beyond that doesnt it? suddenly you have a lot more to prove, youre proposing a pretty significant theory for an a substantial internal brain sex a preferences associated to it.

my argument is that, this is all nice but kinda bogus. you have a strong deep seated desire, for some variety of reasons. i think likely a very small part of that is attributable to whatever "brain sex" we will eventually find. having that deep desire denied causes distress and pain, this is the case with alot of desires! (e.g. homosexual love.)

The point is that it is fine to understand yourself this way. We are so anxiously and messily obsessed with trying to be "valid" women, when the answer is just there. There is no such thing. Not in an essential sense. And thats okay. You can physically change your sex and know this, and you can socially be a woman, because thats what being a woman is: something you do socially. These ARE coherent and verifiable ways of underatanding your experience.

>>40800331 (OP)
>Internal gender natures are not "real" things. They are relations to a social thing.
why can't it be both? you're dumber than the people you're bitching about

>>40802605
Stop huffing your own farts. You're the biggest retard and least educated person in this thread. Just ignore and dismiss criticisms then motte and bailey your bullshit, because you're saving everyone from themselves.
Guys like you are pure evil mixed with the smallest fragment of truth for plausible deniability.

What one year in college and drop out induced inferiority complex will do to a motherfucker.

>>>40802514
the hawks and cheetahs is referencing a paper in philosophersmag that basically argues the same thing youre arguing. >>40802026

i assume youre the same guy?? maybe you missed it but im not arguing for species being a natural kind. im attributing that to your argument.

>>40802673
>>40802687
waaaaaah

>>40800331 (OP)
>You are not suddenly "biologically female", but you are still moving on a spectrum of physical sex to be significantly less biologically male, so stop calling yourself one!!
Both "biological female" and "biological male" is some unscientific drivel that retards who screech about "basic biology" came up with. It's not a thing, technically speaking, an MtF who's been on HRT for 7+ years consistently has all of her cells developed in the presence of E and absence of T which makes her a "biological female", but we all know no one would agree to that.

>>40802673
please point to any substantive criticism. all i see its "but i have dysphoria and that must mean something", "but i have a profoundly compelling feminine nature and that must mean something", "brain sex could still be real and explainatory!".

where exactly is the motte and bailey? is it that, or are you just uncharitable? im discrediting these explainations as being objective and reliable frameworks for understanding trans experience. im not saying there no single ounce of truth to them. there probably is, but narrow, and not what it claims to be.

>>40802709
>i assume youre the same guy??
Nope. I jumped in to read some amateur hour bullshit.

The point is you can't even stop to read a really accessible encyclopedia entry. If you did you would understand that natural kind did apply to species, as it could have applied to sex, that it is something that is used to serve the purposes of science as it evolves.
>All concepts are constitutively fuzzy, you're not making a point here.
I now reiterate this.

Why is it important you can't stop to read an accessible encyclopedia article? Because you lean too heavily on limited sources and don't understand people with other sources or more sources come to conclusions different to your own. You wouldn't have employed a bunk argument if you understood it, if you knew the literature that was summarized. Otherwise why would you make your argument knowing that it was weaker than what you were trying to refute?

Feel embarrassed, tuck your tail, and focus on your studies. Strong ideas take time to formulate, years even. Don't do that and construct faulty preachy arguments on 4chan when you're high.

>>40800331 (OP)
>born male
>penis
>male brain
>xy chromosome
>no womb
Yes transgenderism is a neurological medical disorder, no you are not 'biologically female' because of said disorder or taking cross-sex hormones.
Transexuals of the 20th century fought to be recognized as having a medical disorder, just because an AUTOGYNEPHILE (op) doesn't experience said disorder doesn't mean it isn't real or experienced by others
TDLR Kys OP!!!!!

>>40802822
It's all bullshit dude. I'm not linking half the thread. You found one hammer now everything is a nail, nobody else is impressed.
>where exactly is the motte and bailey?
>im discrediting these explainations
>im not saying there no single ounce of truth to them
Your confusion is nobody's problem but your own. You deserve bad things and everybody is a hero for putting up with you only to have you spit at them in various ways.
I think people will choose the framework that does not consist of an evil schizo spitting in their face, unless that is their fetish.

>>40800376
>gender abolition is a feminist thing you do not understand, because you a child who does not read books, and you are 2 days old to being a woman. it'll become relevant to you the first time you get raped, or lose on a promotion, or realize a majority of men in your life no longer respect what you have to say nearly as confidently as before. until then, stfu when other women talk about it

But I'm a cis faggot and want gender abolition. I want hrt to be normalized. I want men to stop being dehumanized and disposed of and left to kill themselves. I want afabs to know that they're not special or inherently more or less valuable or threatening than anyone else.

But that can only happen if we find a way to trivialize having a star belly or not.

>>40800331 (OP)
Of course the biggest schizo thread of the week is by a boymoder.

>>40800331 (OP)
>all of the scientific method is actually wrong because people won't tell me that im JUST like that 15yo girl from my japanese anime

pls never change, you make me feel mentally sane and well adjusted

>>40802924
You cannot make this shit up. You CAN NOT. CAN. NOT. EVERY. TIME.
>just let everyone self id, what harm will it do, just let them all in
They said, and now this is our lives.

>>40802824
genuine question: what do you think he is saying, and what do you think im saying?

please indulge my "amateur hour bullshit"

>>40800331 (OP)
trannies are definitely biologically male all the way through the transition process and well after they get the snip, but it is fun to read your cope get progressively more incoherent and extreme over time

>>40802476
>dude youre saying that repoductive capability (ability to produce offspring) is a basis for classifing species as naturally distinct in some special distinct way
I wouldnt attribute to it some specialness but it definitely isnt trivial as a biological marker.

>then applying it to sex (defined specifically as role in reproduction which IS a different thing from reproductive compatibility) to classify a natural seperation as if its meaningful in the same exact way (which its not)
Right now and historically, a sperm and an ovum are sexually compatible as in that is the only way two human gametes can unite to form human life from the fetal stage to the adult stage. I disagree with the scientific community on this one. A rule in science that a term being defined should be distinguished from all other members of its class and the distinguishing characteristics of a defined term should be few as possible. I know the chromosomes kickstart the process of development of the primary sexual traits which then in turn lead to secondary but if you think about it it really is based on sexual compatibility. The hormones sure follow as a tertiary role really. Thus since it really is about sexual compatibility, then it follows that as long as the person possesses at least the semblance of what should be the organ that produces or releases that sex differentiated gamete, the person belongs to that class. The other traits are just properties.

But Im being so silly. Of course I know why it the term has been overworked by so many distinguishing characteristics. When viewed from the lens of the medical field it will have all these intersections from genetics, anatomy, physiology, and cell biology.

Of course this doesnt mean someone who produces sperm can sleep with another who produces sperm, or one who releases ova can sleep with another who releases ova, or those who are sterile cant sleep with either or each other. Its just that conception happens between those two

>>40802605
it doesn't feel nice no, I view this as mainly a curse that I have to deal with desu, if it wasn't for dysphoria I don't think I'd have transitioned, plus I remember as far back as being a little kid wanting to be a girl and preferring to hang out with girls. I guess my confusion with this is if I'm not a woman born in a male body then what am I?

You ungrateful bitches don't understand OP was trying to save you from yourselves. He realized all methods have flaws so it's all meaningless. Why don't you understand his heckin genius? We need to ban all trans science, and trans medical practice and research. That's the only way to be free.
>OP is from the UK
Yup.

>>40802931
You can dumb down any argument and itll sound retarded, crazy how that works

>>40803034
>lets go back to sexual functionalism but with some freedoms

>>40803070
But your argument is especially retarded. Especially in its entirety.

>>40800331 (OP)
> wanting to live as the other sex is just something some humans want to do. its just a human phenomena.
I feel like this is basically as complicated as the explanation gets, but to get ignorant people on board you have to build up all these theories and cook up all these studies to """legitimize""" it. To some degree I feel like focus around gender dysphoria and transmedicalism is largely about generating sympathy. There's a large chunk of society currently that will only accept trans stuff (and even then only tentatively) if there's some sort of nice-sounding scientific/medical theory or clear mental distress to trans people backing it, and trans people recognize that's their only foothold so they play up (often real) stuff like dysphoria and brain scans and we-have-a-mental-illness-we-can't-change-woe-is-us stuff as a basic bid to get their foot in the door. Not all that different from gay people in the 20th century having to pathologize their shit, forced into basically accepting the premise it was some form of disorder but that it couldn't be changed, in order to get even a shred of sympathy. But by this point they've ditched that approach because it's not needed anymore. To me it seems like the obvious trajectory of trans opinion is that it'll eventually just be an accepted variation of how people behave and that the obsession with proofs and studies and exaggerating the mental anguish of it all won't be necessary anymore. If people looked at it purely logically, the concept of a transgender person or being trans is kind of a nothingburger and it will almost certainly be viewed that way eventually. People are just retarded and scared.

>>40801052
Literally nobody spills the beans about everything fucking retard. So tired of morons like you acting like it's this grand deceit because a trans person didn't lay out all their medical history and trauma. I'd tell you to neck yourself but youre probably afab (read: retarded) so maybe swallow a bunch of valium instead.

>>40803034
what is your point?

>>40803127
Nobody is """building theories""" to convince you of anything. They're researching because it's interesting and because they want to know more. All anti-trans stuff in the anglo sphere is related to American conservative think tanks and religious groups, who coincidentally are also only a degree or two at most away from Blanchard and Bailey. Transmedicalism is a slur to attack anyone that supports any amount of medical care for trans people, including attacks on anyone taking HRT at all, or a less extreme version attacking anyone with a prescription instead of DIY.
You are conflating science and medical care with psychiatry and mental illnesses. Both psychiatry and mental illness concepts are under criticism these days for being unscientific and pretending to be medically valid. The science and medical care has very little to do with either. Making this false association just makes you as evil and harmful as the psychiatric association that pathologized homosexuality. The issue is that even depathologizing dysphoria, people will experience it, when you understand that it is a reasonable distress to an unreasonable situation. Change society before you argue in favor of throwing everyone in the deepend before they can swim. Oops some drown, not your fault though. Ignorant asshole.

>>40803049
i have so far been accused of

>being a redditor
>not being a trutrans youngshit with debilitating dysphoria
>dropping out of college/not graduating
>being high
>being schizophernic
>not reading
>committing a common logical fallacy
>being from the UK

yet none of these are true!!!

>>40802476
>like idk. this is uninteresting. sex is more similar than you think, and is bridgable! youre obsessed with some idealized natural seperation, prob, if i assume you are an average person, because you fetishize the categories and what they represent.

im going to sleep after this but in a way I would say I probably do fetishize the categories but you tell me. I have a deep desire for transwomen. I cannot shake that feeling. They are always on my mind. I swear everytime I do anything which requires any courage, I only think about them. I want to be strong for them. I want to be better for them. I dont even understand where the idea originates from. But thats what my mind compels me to do. So if there is nothing wrong with that, and I havent recognized any wrongdoing, then it is an advantage to me to accept that feeling and approve of it and preserve it. It is natural. It arises from my subconscious. That idea is precious to me.

>>40803276
ok

>>40803240
You're misunderstanding "thing as objective truth/scientific inquiry" and "same thing as political argument or persuasive tool." It's not really about whether or not all those theories and all that research is legitimate or not, but how it's used is what I'm interested in. I mean shit, there probably is a gay gene or some traceable scientific explanation that works along with environment that "makes" a person gay. But it doesn't really matter anymore from an activism perspective because people have moved beyond the requirement that it be somehow grounded scientifically - it's well understood now that some people are just gay and that's fine regardless of whatever research has been done or will be done. I'm more interested in how those things are used to build a narrative and how they're weaponized politically. Activists are currently latched on to the studies and the emphasis on dysphoria because they've correctly identified those are the only things keeping them politically afloat for large chunks of the population that eventually will move beyond the need to have those things and just sort of accept that some people are different and move on.

>>40803272
But why would you act like it was? Wouldn't that be worse?

>>40803353
im referring to the uk, and "we" as in the trans community collectively. not implying im from there. be charitable!!

>>40801656
Not that anon, but I'm pretty sure transwomen don't live as women.

Otherwise, they wouldn't even be on 4chan

>>40803350
Only schizos on both sides think research is done as some kind of extension of twitter screeching. The few exceptions that are will invariably come from some literally who guy at a literally where Christian university.
Activists always think that they're the good guys because they're activists, then they stomp on how people make sense of themselves and how they relate to the world and their lived experiences. Then they try to tear down the very socially constructed institutions that the depend upon. This isn't unique to trans issues, but it is always done from a position of privilege and ignorance, thinking you're saving people, which in turn implies you're a good person, and now you can feel righteous of warm inside.
Science must become more value aware, but it must continue, and activist minded people must separate science from psychiatric associations, which are not scientific.

>>40803369
Who have you been charitable to in this thread? Seriously? You dumb motherfucker.

>>40802790
Hormones aren't "sex", lmao
We all have both in our bodies

The best outward tell for a sex is gamete production, that's what we use for every other goddamn species--and behind that gamete production is chromosomal programming, the real wizard behind the curtain.

Creating a different hormone environment won't change gametes
Sex does not change
Make Words Mean Things Again

>>40800331 (OP)
i was born male and that is all that matters in relation to my sex (apart from the natural state of my primary sex organs). Just because im male doesnt mean i cant look like a cute wombin :3

>>40803407
I'm honestly curious what you think I believe, it's hard to make sense of these replies or what you think you're debating

>>40803272
being young doesn't make you sound good though, it means you're too privileged and take your situation for granted
others pointed out your inexperience and lack of awareness in multiple posts which you ignored or dismissed
anon that said previous generations fought for recognition of needing medical categorization was correct

>>40803424
Sex is a bimodal spectrum between male and female where could be dictated by many factors
hormonal levels
gametes produced
chromossomes
primary sexual characteristics
secondary sexual characteristic
almost all of them could be changed through of HRT and be nulified by surgeries except for chromossomes who could be only seen through a microscrope by removing one of the somatic cells of your body
of course a hon would look like a deformed intersex male due to testosterone exposition, while a passoid wouldn't even had the testosterone poisoning to a point of being more like a female intersex person
HRT literally induces intersex and therefore causes the sex to change
a hon will be forever on a male spectrum of the bimodal while a passoid wouldnt

>>40803437
It doesn't matter. I'm responding to your posts and won't respond to some gotcha that only proves I can't read your mind. You can't read other people's mind either, but you still post some really ignorant takes about them. I'm doing you far less of a disservice than you are to them.

>>40803482
>Sex is a bimodal spectrum
Replace bimodal with multi-modal and delete spectrum

>>40803375
lol
>>40803407
>schizos on both sides think research is done as some kind of extension of twitter
no you dont get it. it LITERALLY is. keep telling yourself the scientists are pure and separate buddy.

>>40803417
lol. sorry. normally i make these threads and im really really nice. being mean for once gets alot more engagement. granted havent made one in months.

>>40803424
>i just want words to mean things I swear!!
>i have no political goals!!!

>>40803474
youngshit just means you got on hormones early.

>>40803543
which makes it likely you're taking your privilege for granted and unaware of the alternative

>>40803533
> no you dont get it. it LITERALLY is. keep telling yourself the scientists are pure and separate buddy.
Amazed how anyone couldn't get this by this point. People are mostly OK or unaware of trans people and alllll the studies leaned positive. Right wingers start investing billions into getting the public to adopt trans as the new moral panic? Oh would you look at that, """studies""" particularly in the most trans-skeptical developed countries like the UK are coming out things like that Cass Review saying it's actually unproven and countries are walking it all back. It's all a sham, the studies and their "findings" are a reflection of the culture and what society wants to be true. If things swing back and get pro-trans expect a bunch of reviews and studies "disproving" Cass and the trans-skeptical studies of the 2020s, it's all so tiresome. Expect the studies to cease altogether when trans people aren't a hot issue anymore

>>40803608
> People are
Meant people WERE, in the 2010s. Didn't want some mouthbreather misreading that and missing the point

>>40803533
>no you dont get it. it LITERALLY is. keep telling yourself the scientists are pure and separate buddy.
There it is guys. OP admits to being an actual retarded schizo. Case closed.

>>40803608
So you want them to destroy themselves by destroying science and medicine, or to destroy anglo-American Christianity and conservative think tanks?
No, you don't think that much about it.

The mental gymnastics trans women go through to justify their lie, not only to others, but themselves. I would have more sympathy and understanding if they just admitted they are mentally ill, or that they are extremely feminine men with tits and/or no dick.

>>40803622
lmao. i feel like youre invested in science as this separate thing that is above us and protects us. im friends and acquaintances with like 10ish trans medical researchers. including a famous neurologist med school director. ive read plenty of the literature.

also, im on the side of "more studies that support trans people". that said, theres tons of issues all around trans research broadly. often the premises are very wrong, and they are not this "objective" protective thing beyond reproach

>>40803665
lol

>>40803801
Never post your name or say this in public. Your career would be over after a thread like this.

>>40803949
christ youre really mad. sorry

Sexual classifications, as in all discussion on sexual characteristics but also sex itself, will be looked on in the future as a modern day phrenology.
Judging people in any merit by physical characteristics or really any characteristics at all shows you're just one of the brainlet sheeps of society who need a vague abstract group to hate/admire.

Like, who gives a fuck. None of these absolutely meaningless labels tell anyone anything about a person, it's all social performative larps.

I don't know. Sociology in general and trying to necessitate classifications of people is retarded. People have all these very weird ideas that "men are this way" or "women are this way" or "real/fake trannies are this way", and it's all just like, who the fuck hurt you bud?

Race, gender, generally any physical aspect that belongs to a human mind, is a blatant descriptive feature, not prescriptive. It's an actual skill check whether you view the world prescriptively or descriptively, and if you are actually stupid enough to view gender or sexuality prescriptively, then you're literally on the same intellectual level of racists and the other crayon chewers of society, and stupid people like you who think in group classifications are the reason behind every atrocity ever done in human society.

>>40804664
holy trvke

if you give trannies enough time, you are going to have david reimer again

>>40804773
David Reimer showed u should let people choose their gender or else they'll kill themselves. It's literally evidence of gender dysphoria being scientific truth.

>>40800331 (OP)
Love you op u right

>>40800331 (OP)
Your autism will never convince normal people to consider you a woman nor a female.
You might be able to trick normal people, but once they quickly realize the truth about you, it doesn't matter.
YWNBAW. Simple as.

>>40804664
It's the other way around. Acting as if people are mental creatures controlling bodies like biological robots that have nothing to do with them is going to be treated like believing in souls. In the end people will see you as basically just as bad as dogmatic church and the inquisition, or doing witch trials to attack and harass people. All because you believe in a social dogma that it's all mental and anyone that thinks different has no reasons for that so they're crayon chewers and bad like racists. Just like how your type used to say you're color blind, and it took a while for people to accept that people calling themselves color blind are the biggest racists that deny lived experience and bodies are real.

>>40804664
Based

>>40804786
>It's literally evidence of gender dysphoria being scientific truth
the opposite of what OP is trying to push

>>40804834
In the future everyone will decide who gets to be king based on how many eyelashes they have, this is what god and the universe intended :D

>>40804834
Being a man or a woman tells me absolutely nothing about a person. It's literally worthless fluff. To point out that using these terms prescriptively is retarded isn't the same as saying men or women can't talk about common experiences. I'm just saying you use these terms to describe people, not to prescriptively say how they should or are by nature, lol. They literally, objectively, tell you absolutely nothing about a person, and yes you are indeed as stupid as a racist person who would see a colored person and assume "oh they must be x".

>>40804821
>normal
We all die

>>40804786
Conservicucks always misunderstand David Reimer, and then socialcucks misunderstand it too in response to them. David Reimer showed that it wasn't purely social, and you couldn't force someone to be a gender they aren't if they don't want to be.

>>40804883
>>40804834
See
>>40804871
This anon gets it.

These are pointless descriptive features of our time that we've vaguely ascribed significance to for absolutely no reason, and in doing so, have created social systems of control where we both elevate some, and de-elevate others. All over something that is, frankly, as mundane as the colour of your hair or how many eyelashes you are.

Yes, future people will look on us very oddly, for all our goods and bads. I personally think our views on gender and sex will be as antiquated as phrenology is, eventually.

>>40804883
Doesn't matter. That's not the claim here. You are a textbook example of someone that over-intellectualizes and thinks people are just their pure thoughts. So that inherently means that you think your thoughts are universal in a way that lets you discriminate others. Yes, others think differently and do and say things differently, but that's because they have bad thoughts unlike you. You are exactly like someone that claims to be color blind and then discriminates against minority groups because you a actually believe they just have evil thoughts.

>>40804821
not really. Passing has always been the definitive factor. If an MTF passes, people have to straight up force themselves to see them as a man, and even then subconsciously they don't. It's just so many MTFs don't pass that a lot of people are comfortable making broad statements. As much as people try, they can' force themselves to see someone their brain sees as a female as male, even with the knowledge they're transgender. If you successfully "trick" normal people, those normal people remain tricked even when the beans are spilled. It's too subconscious to be controllable by that point

>>40804943
I'm not colorblind but if it makes you feel better about my argument I can flex my suffering Olympics card and talk about how people who were a different colour than me consistently tried to run me over for my color when I was a small child, if you want.

You're kind of dense for failing to recognize how "these are meaningless differences" is not the same as saying "injustices don't happen over our meaningless differences".

Calling for the abolition of contrived social systems of classifying people is not the same as saying that minorities aren't discriminated, and I genuinely have no clue what the fuck you're talking about buddy.

>>40804943
Is it not better to think people should be judged on their thoughts, rather than the happenstance arrangements of their biological matter?

>>40805007
So based

>>40804998
Also to be frank would it not be insanely racist to see a colored person and just assume "this person has experienced injustice in society" like ????
Maybe vaguely and contextually but yeah, again, these descriptive terms tell you absolutely nothing about a person, and are completely useless outside of describing someone's physical appearance, maybe.

>>40804998
It's the same thing. So it doesn't matter if you recognize it as the same or not. You think you're owning the phrenologists, sounds impressive, but you're just going back to an antiquated and harmful position yourself. That's not what you want to hear, because you want to believe you're thinking to the future and you're talking down to people you equate with crayon chewing racists. It's not new in the slightest, ideas like tabula rasa and the immortal soul all made people argue for things and then do things that were ultimately evil and caused a lot of harm. All because they believed in theoretical purity like you think people are effectively just their thoughts and their body and material reality tells you nothing. You're out of your depth here and it doesn't matter how many people agree with you or how you rephrase it. You call people names, you call me dense, again thinking I have bad thoughts and so I am a bad person. Ignoring reality, bodies that matter, and lived experience doesn't make you superior and you have no actual reason to believe that there is a magic future where material reality doesn't matter to people. Let alone trying to compare it to phrenology, with which it has nothing in common. But I'm dense, and how do you know? Because your thoughts told you, after all you think thoughts are pure, and so if you think it then it must be true and I just have dense or bad thoughts.

>>40805007
No. Thoughts are always in context to material reality, something some of you dipshits ignore since you're perma online.

>>40800331 (OP)
TRVKE

>>40804891
crazy that a boy with mutilated genitals raised in an insanely misogynistic 1960/70s household, with strict gender norms heavily enforced, and forced to do sex acts on his brother didnt want to be a girl. who would?!?

>>40804977
TERFs and conservicucks hate that trannies passes
they love the theyfabs and rapehons because they are easy targets to make fun of to death, they recognize how bad they are
This is why they re so much against youth transition and research about trannies
they need that rapehons and theyfabs are the norm so the narrative is fed up and the normies would feel concerned
if passoids were the norm it would just sound ridiculous to misgender and be transphobic towards them
TLDR: they hate passoids and love rapehons

>>40805124
Do you think you think differently because of your skin colour, or because your skin colour means you’ve been taught to think differently?

>>40805108
You called me religious and racist when I made no comments directed to you in my original post so I must have really struck a nerve holy jeez LOL.

Anyways, you're using strawman arguments. I don't believe in the soul. I'm not religious. But you're arguing using fallacies so desu I'm losing interest and do in general think you're a crayon chewing retard, yeah.

>>40800331 (OP)
mmmm beer

>>40805108
You’re an actual retard lmfao. NTA you’re replying to but it’s laughable how badly you’ve misunderstood them

>>40805163
I'm the anon that one is replying to I would say men and women think differently because of their upbringing and that it's 99% cultural. What do you think?

>>40805244
Yeah, absolutely, I would say that’s true. I think people are socialised dependent on their bodies, but I don’t think that they should be.

>>40805168
I didn't call you religious. I said that the idiotic idea you're espousing is like believing in souls and acting similar to religions that persecuted people for it. I didn't say you're racist, I said you're no different that people that espoused ideas that were later revealed to be racist. You have yet to really explain how science and lived experience is like phrenology.
>>40805183
I'm not retarded. I am very intelligent according to a lot of people who tell me I know what I am talking about. I should really reconsider myself because anon wants to revive some debunked old ideas left on the trash heap already.
No, it doesn't matter how many morons agree with another moron. It never matters except for that one moment you can cheer and sneer.
>>40805163
Everyone reacts to their environment and is different for it. Not holding it against them or thinking their material reality implies destiny does not mean that there is no material reality or that it is meaningless. Many crypto racists would agree with that poster too.

>>40805272
You're kind of innately a bigot then because you'd see a minority and immediately have assumptions about them, I.e. that they're societally discriminated against
Lmao like???
You are absolutely failing to understand the argument.
Descriptive features are not prescriptive ones. Please learn the difference.

>>40805272
>>40805313
Like, applying your logic, it seems like you would immediately see a black person and assume "this person has experienced discrimination", and the flaw is that you literally have no way of knowing that. You are prescriptively describing people when using your logic, when it is a descriptive terminology. It tells you nothing but what they look like. Contextually, you can probably infer some things, but they are all social artificial constructs that you are inferring, I.e. "this is a black person in America so they have likely experienced racism". There is no innate truth to thinking that though, and to assume it, imo, is wrong. I literally cannot infer anything about a person if you tell me physical descriptors of them, aside from vague assumptions based on social institutions that we have entirely constructed, I.e. men and women, race, etc.

>>40805272
I’m still unsure why you think not determining the character of someone based on their race or gender is a bad thing? I don’t think anybody would deny that a person’s body shapes their experiences of the world, and that those experiences shape their character, but I think it’s fairly clear that a person’s biology does not determine who or what kind of a person someone becomes. Women don’t wear makeup because their hormones demand it, they wear it because society has socially conditioned women to do so. There is a causal link between behaviour and the body, but it’s mediated and informed by society.

>>40805397
This but not to mention some women will never wear makeup at all. People are not defined by their social moulds generally, and you will always find people who don't meet your expectations if you do think in group thinking like that. It's really just silly to think anything about a person. It's just gender is some of the most tightly upheld artificial social roles right now, so it tends to have more assumptions than even race or nationality or other labels. Gender is probably the oldest and most concrete label in human society, but it's still really just a descriptive term of a myriad of people who lived throughout history, and not much more. Being a "woman" does not necessitate anything about one's life. It's a fake label.

>>40800331 (OP)
EXPLAIN HONS they will always be more biologically male than female so it's only logical to calls ones self "biologically male"