Thread 41037879

The only reason people are even able to debate whether or not this person is transgender, is because autogynephile trenders were allowed to water down the definition of “transgender” to nothing.

First they started claiming that medical transition isn’t necessary to be trans. That you can be a heckin valid woman without any sort of body modifications.

Then they started claiming even social transition isn’t necessary. Trying to push the idea that so-called “boymoders” can be either women or transgender. That someone who everyone irl knows as Lucas (he/him) can somehow be considered a transitioner because he changed his discord pronouns & secretly uses estrogen.

It’s ridiculous. They watered down the definition of transgender to nothing. And that’s why they can claim anyone they want is trans to push a narrative. Because the definition has been destroyed & there’s no way to push back.

If we let a proper definition of transgender cease to exist, then this is the end result. They can claim anyone is trans to push any narrative. And nobody can push back without being cancelled for not being inclusive enough.

A strict, solid definition of who is trans is necessary. Frankly we should return to the word transsexual. That’s the only way to stop this.

No more tucutes, no more “boymoders”. We don’t have room for unserious people.

>>41037879 (OP)
if transsexual means changing your sex then how are boymoders who take E excluded? we're changing our sex but not our gender

>>41037923
the natural endpoint of hsts brainworms is not going back to transsexual, but harry benjamin syndrome

the lgbtq+ """community""" really needs to sort out what it means to be trans. that's a huge internal problem that will only incur more division otherwise.

>>41037879 (OP)
think you're kinda missing the point sis (cis?). why does it even matter whether they are trans or not? the problem is, every time a minority commits a crime, or is even tangential to a crime in a non-criminal way, cish*tero wh*te people are allowed to frame the debate as "should the bill of rights apply to [these people]?" stop buying it

>>41037963
there's a unique concern around transgender people though because of the likelihood of mental illness with them; it's also still a legitimate question whether transgenderism was properly declassified as one.

>text wall of schizo
kys transmedfag go back to peddit

>>41037990
and you "people" have said the same shit about black people since reconstruction, in different ways. "they're dangerous, they want white women, they can't be trusted with guns bc they're crack-addicted dealers," etc. you're so obviously a c*ssoid astroturfer. get a life

>>41037879 (OP)
>apparently cooperating very well with law enforcement
>had no idea what had happened and was shocked
The rightwingers are totally still going to make this person's life hell

>>41038018
>and you "people" have said the same shit about black people since reconstruction, in different ways
no I haven't. prove it.

>>41037923
you are not a woman or trans if you live every day as a man. and you’re probably an autopedophile misusing feminizing hormones in a vain attempt to look like an underage boy if you’re fighting so hard to be called “boy” instead of man.
>>41037993
everything i said here was correct & if it wasn’t, you’d be able to tell me where i was wrong instead of typing this

>>41037990
nta but if trans people are really more prone to mental illness, then letting us continue to transition and take our medication is the only realistic solution
unless you want genocide (death camps or mass forced detransition via prohibition of HRT, they would amount to more or less the same)

>>41038018
Dont compare ur mental illness and sexual fetish to immutable race.

>>41038052
I don't claim to have "done all the research", but from what I've seen at best it's conflicting and at worst transitioning long(er)-term doesn't improve mental health and letting kids with gender dysphoria go through their normal puberty seems to make it subsist in the majority of cases.

>>41038074
go back to /pol/.

Must submit to therapy, must RLE, only androphilic accepted, must pursue sex reassignment, no legal documents change until sex reassignment, and the problems go away. The people who originally set all this stuff up nailed it the first time.

>>41038082
do you actually have an argument?

>>41038031
you're the same person who was posting yesterday that blacks were happier enslaved and that we should use the national guard to re-segregate trans people from bathrooms
>>41038054
let me guess: you also don't believe in the existence of mixed race people. if something is "immutable" that should give you a clue that it's pretty abstract. like i've said before, people only hate rachel dolezal bc she's a transracial "hon" who doesn't pass for black. if she passed for black no one would care if she called herself black despite having no black parents (like shaun king)

Shootings would go down by a lot if biological males in general were not allowed to have guns. Men are the real danger to society, not any specific subset of them. It's the obvious truth every one of these scapegoaters dance around. Almost every evil from the dawn of time has had its roots in the male power fantasy

>>41038094
do you? stick your stale 2014 talking points up your ass.

>>41038099
>you're the same person who was posting yesterday that blacks were happier enslaved and that we should use the national guard to re-segregate trans people from bathrooms
I'm not religious, but hand to god I genuinely don't know what you're talking about. I'm not a white supremacist, and I'm not even white.

>>41038108
Hey I think you meant to post this in /clg/ (your theory is still retarded btw)

>>41038108
>Men are the real danger to society
men are quite benevolent. if we were so evil, we could easily enslave the rest of society - I mean, it's not like there haven't been modern versions of that in other socieites - but we don't.

>>41038092
i think you should be able to get your documents fixed first, but otherwise yes. transsexuals were completely psyopped with jewish subversion to be turned into a destructive force of unserious fetishists.

>>41037879 (OP)
Trvke
>>41037993
Mad that you don't get credit without putting in the work.

>>41038108
We had a chance for matriarchy but the white men had to throw a cult tantrum....

>>41038179
did the mods all just log off after charlie got clipped or something?

>>41038074
simply factually incorrect, sorry
I went down this rabbit hole pre-transition thinking I could repress the feelings, and it's just not true; many people who choose not to transition or who detransition later regret it and transition or retransition anyway
mental health and other outcomes improve for vastly more than 90% of trans people who take HRT and socially transition. there are very few other forms of medical care on earth as effective at treating their targets
but as a troll you don't argue in good faith so I'm not really interested in doing an in-depth analysis, it would sink into the sea

>>41037879 (OP)
Antiboymoder propaganda shall stop at this very moment, I declare TOTAL TRUSCUM DEATH. You picked the wrong enemy buddy.

>>41038044
>chud: killer is ...killer's roommate is trans
>chud: it's all bc she is trans
>transmedfag: all bc she is trans but if have gatekeeping then
kek like what i said kys or go back to peddit opticsfags and transmedfags like you are the most norime and retarded in the planet
>>41038180
>be me youngshit hrt at 13
>event time argue with pickme retarded boomerhons. they: "Mad that you don't get credit without putting in the work."
yeah maybe but we all know trandmedism is a cope way of being a gigahon
Stop projecting

>>41038240
I don't know why you think I'm a troll and am arguing in bad faith. I explicitly clarified that I'm not claiming to have done all the research. I obviously have my "fee fees" about it, and have read things here and there, but there's a lot I could learn about it. if you don't want to you don't have to, but if you thought someone *was* arguing in good faith, what would be the single most important resource you would show them to try to convince them that allowing kids the ability to transition is on the whole a source for good? yes, I could "do my own research," but I'm asking you specifically what you'd point to.

>>41038240
confirming facts. detransers are between 1% and 15% of trans people (data aren't great), most detrans due to the social stigma around being trans, and, of those who detrans, something like 90% (again, not much data) retransition. these statistics are readily available after one (1) google search
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1697260024000322
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8213007/

>>41038267
>>41038249

>>41038283
the higher rates (>8%) come from very low population studies, rates usually lower down to 2-3% with increased size looking through studies
there was some fag on medium that compiled like 20-30 most popular detranny studies

>>41038273
you know what? you're right. I can't always jump to that conclusion. I'll give it a chance.
this is an extremely recent piece of literature, a wide-ranging research review of studies on outcomes for trans teens taking puberty blockers and hormone therapy (blockers prevent the "wrong" puberty until parents and kids are sure it's the right choice, then they start hormone therapy which starts their transition proper)
there's no "best" in academic research but I chose this one since it's the most recent (academic impulse)
>https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12294553/
>"Overall, researchers suggest that puberty blockers and hormone therapy have positive implications for the mental health of TGD [trans and gender-diverse] youth, including decreased depression, anxiety, suicidality, self-harm, gender dysphoria, and body dissatisfaction, as well as increased quality of life and life satisfaction. On the other hand, like most (if not all) medical interventions, GAMC [gender-affirming medical care] also has some risks. These risks can include decreased bone density, changes in body density, reduced cardiometabolic health, and, perhaps most notably, fertility issues. However, these risks do not necessarily suggest a need to prohibit TGD youth from accessing GAMC, but rather underscore the need for close monitoring by doctors . . . particularly in relation to fertility, and increased research on the topic. Indeed, we noticed throughout our review researchers stressing the importance of collaborative care between TGD persons and an interdisciplinary team as well as supportive family and friends."

TL;DR: gender-affirming care just works for improving the mental health of teens. there are relatively minor negative outcomes compared to what's gained, namely minor to moderate bone density loss and infertility. like with any medical condition, the kids and their parents weight the pros and cons, and many (for good reason) choose to go forward with hormone therapy

>>41038349
braindead of you to not even link the study

>>41037879 (OP)
>We don’t have room for unserious people.
Are you black?

>>41037879 (OP)
what about manmoders

>>41038349
>"One of the most important contributions made by Dreger’s article is her description of the extraordinary lengths to which some of Bailey’s male-to-female (MtF) transsexual opponents went in their attempts to discredit him, his book, and his ideas. By Dreger’s account, their campaign against Bailey continued for at least two years after the publication of The Man Who Would Be Queen (TMWWBQ; Bailey, 2003). Examination of the Internet sites maintained by some of Bailey’s principal transsexual opponents"
>because someone didnt like my ramblings I specifically wrote an article saying they’re narcissistic
kek you're really retarded fuck

>>41037961
This. There needs to be gatekeeping or else you get idiots like this fucking it up for everyone

>>41038363
thank you, I genuinely appreciate it.
>there are relatively minor negative outcomes compared to what's gained, namely minor to moderate bone density loss and infertility
I hope you can still trust that I'm asking this in good faith, but how do you determine that a certain outcome is "minor"? if you want to eventually have kids, or at least have the capacity should you become more sure of your considerations as an adult, wouldn't infertility be actually rather major? that seems like a subjective/philosophical thing, not scientific/objective.
also, while I am not disputing the findings in this review, but do you think it's a valid concern to want long(er)-term studies? this is true of anything, but it seems fair to wonder whether these more immediate improvements will persist throughout adulthood. I know that there are difficulties with doing research on such things, but that seems to be a valid thing to bring up in these discussions; it can't only be about a child's immediate circumstances; that they in some sense could be experiments for something they will very much regret down the line and have serious complications from (like fertility).

>>41038404
This is what happened with the stockholm syndrome thing lol

>>41038481
1/2
>but how do you determine that a certain outcome is "minor"?
because we're comparing any negative outcomes of transitioning with the chief negative outcomes of *not* transitioning, which are lifelong depression, severe social dysfunction, and for many (including me had I not transitioned), suicide
so in the first place, fertility is minor negative outcome because of what we're forced to weigh it against
I'm not sure if you knew this, but the conventional approach to MTF transition in childhood is:
>puberty blockers ~12 or whenever Tanner Stage 2 sets in
>estrogen therapy ~16, or sooner if the family decides they're certain
there is an approximate four year period during which a trans teen can decide whether they put more value on fertility or life as the gender they're transitioning to
what I really don't like is the implications of your question. let's say fertility is a really serious issue we need to weigh in trans care; what does that practically mean? are you suggesting that we outlaw trans youth care for everyone because some might make rash decisions that don't consider their fertility?
or are the implications of your viewpoint simply that we require trans teens who want hormone therapy to undergo mental healthcare to be sure they've properly considered fertility?
because if what you want is the second, that's what we already do. so I don't know what exactly your question is
I don't determine what a minor outcome is for anyone else; but I can see how many trans teens and their parents, including me in the same situation, would judge fertility as minor compared to other negative outcomes
>but do you think it's a valid concern to want long(er)-term studies?
absolutely. and in order to do those studies, we need to allow brave trans teens and their parents make the choice to get GAMC as youths, or else the data that enables an informed decision will never exist

>>41038481
>it can't only be about a child's immediate circumstances
it's not. there is usually at least a two year delay between beginning puberty blockers and beginning estrogen therapy. there are zero rash decisions in trans youth care for exactly the reasons you feel: that we need to protect kids against the capriciousness that defines youth
to suggest that after 2-4 years of undergoing puberty blockers a teen is unable to make an informed decision for their own life, especially at age 15-16, is a dysfunctional attitude toward teen autonomy; by that age, teens NEED to have increasing control over their lives because they're within two Christmases of being full adults capable of signing legal documents
>that they in some sense could be experiments for something they will very much regret down the line and have serious complications from (like fertility).
and they could just as easily regret not be allowed to transition, only in that case, they will have felt like the world tied their hands when they most needed freedom
which sounds worse for mental health for you, assuming we don't know the outcome in advance: being allowed to make a bold and free choice that honestly seemed correct at the time only to realize it was a mistake, or to be forbidden by the legal structure of your country from doing something that seemed like the correct choice?
forcing a trans teen to undergo a natal ("wrong") puberty when they have spent years expressing a desire not to do so is exactly the same as forcibly transitioning a cis child. there is no meaningful difference, unless we begin with the assumption that being trans is wrong, aberrative, or undesirable

>>41038784
>>41038835
I appreciate your posts. I'm posting this now to say that I'll reply to them later today, just busy rn; I'm not ignoring you.

>>41038481
you don't actually care about infertility. gamete cryopreservation is a solved problem. if you (mistakenly) believed that HRT permanently sterilized people and thought that was the major reason to oppose giving it to minors, you would be instead advocating for insurance companies and other healthcare providers to cover gamete preservation alongside hormone treatments.

what's with the boymoder hate lately

>>41037879 (OP)
Just look at SEA ladyboys, even without surgeries or HRT (due to living in a poor country, that's why a lot of them become prostitutes) they try their hardest to look like the ideal woman (the divine feminine)
I'm as far right as it gets but i can respect a trans person who works hard to look and act the part to the best of their ability, just how i am doing everything in my power to be like Thor (the divine masculine)

>>41038108
trvke

>>41039525
Disingenuous. You know very well none of these people will have biological children regardless of freezing sperm. And good luck conceiving IVF with 15 year old ice sperm anyway.
Young people won't understand why reproduction is important until way later, which is part of why you're so hellbent on selling them the fantasy when they're young in the first place.

>>41038349
god what a beautiful screencap. i'll be using that in the future

>>41037879 (OP)
this is very obviously a boymoding tranny though

>>41038074
You're right.
>>41038240
You're mentally ill. Stay away from kids.

>>41038404
>someone uses the scientific method to investigate trannies
>trannies go batshit about it and threaten him with violence in a mask off moment
>this leads to even more focus on how insane and violent they all are
Just like with the assassination of Charlie Kirk. You twisted fags just can't help yourselves.

>>41040196
It’s from his tiktok he took 2 years ago and it’s a filter.

>>41040294
yes it's lain pajamas cosplay and this person is a tranny

>>41040294
>>41040320
He's a trannie.

>>41040354
>>41037879 (OP)
cute
wouldn't murder people for them though

>>41040252
>Just like with the assassination of Charlie Kirk
saar thats a cis man kill a cis man

>>41040385
41%

I feel sorry for this person since she got her face plastered all over the news, just because her boyfriend decided it would be a good idea to murder Trump's favorite podcaster. I hope she's okay.

>medical transition isn’t necessary to be trans
>you can be a heckin valid woman without any sort of body modifications
>even social transition isn’t necessary
>“boymoders” can be either women or transgender
>someone who everyone irl knows as Lucas (he/him) can somehow be considered a transitioner because he changed his discord pronouns & secretly uses estrogen
these things are all true, chvd. you can be trans even if your sex matches your gender, same as you can be a male lesbian or an ace who enjoys sex

>>41040419
t.

I've been on hormones for 5 years. I live with my cis boyfriend who I've been dating for 3 years. I've had countless laser sessions, get my eyebrows threaded regularly, wear light makeup when going out, dress androgynously to balance my own comfort and plausible deniability etc. but I still "boy mode" because I don't pass. I need ffs and a lot of luck and likely I never will pass. Does that mean I'm "fake trans"? Would I be more trve trans to you if I committed the ritual humiliation of "IT'S MAAM-ing" innocent strangers and dressing like a freak and forcing people to kneel to my le pronouns?

>>41040461
>trannie has "SeeGore.com" images saved
Not surprised.

>>41040208
>Stay away from kids.
every accusation is a confession, as they say
I've never felt or been saner in my life, all thanks to my transition
the tragedy of your ignorance and hatred is that the kids I work with at school and church constantly make clear I'm a beloved caregiver
every community I enter is better for my being a woman than it would be if I were a man
I had a student rush up to me to try to hug me the other day--which I of course stepped back from and offered a fist bump instead, explaining as kindly as I could that it's important for teachers not to hug students
I was blessed the other day to have no fewer than five different students approach me and beg me to come back to a particular classroom I had to leave (I substitute teach) because they didn't like their new teacher. you can't imagine the joy I felt, literally, clearly, you can't imagine the joy I felt, soot-covered as your heart is
I'm sorry your soul has been broken into believing that no one can ever seek radical change for beautiful reasons
I hope the sickness in your heart leaves you
you don't deserve it. no one does
and if like I suspect, you're the same pained, deluded fool who spends hours on here per week telling trans girls they're mentally ill and a threat to children, whatever misery you're feeling or whatever dreams of your others have killed?
you can live that dream, too. everyone here would fall over themselves to support your pursuit of that dream
take what you want. god is a god of love and mercy and she wants her creations to feel joy because joy creates love
I know you know this deep down
and I do love you in full view of the cruel thing you've said here

>>41041398
>gets told to simply "stay away from kids"
>writes an entire essay
You fags just can't help yourselves.

>>41041786
>no response

>>41037879 (OP)
Is it even autogynephilia?
Where's the "gyn"?
I don't understand a segment of trans. Primarily I don't understand the ones who do all the trans memes but don't transition. Why not transition if trans?
I also don't get the pluralism/multi personality stuff

>>41041912
gyn is from the ancient Greek γυνή meaning woman/female (same thing, basically). auto is self, so it's basically being attracted at seeing yourself as a woman.

>>41041889
You expected me to read the delusional ramblings of a troon attempting to rationalize some special relationship he has with children? LOL!

Stay away from kids, fag. Simple as.

>>41038119
>Theory
>All statistics ever

>>41037879 (OP)
my first e bf has a pic where i look similar, years later and i'm a passoid now

>>41041939
Yes but these people neither want to be nor are they attracted to women. They do not transition. Seems more like theymabs?

>>41040044
it's survivorship bias, there's more to life than appealing to predatory men who take different forms of feminine expression and turn it into a prey tier list

>>41037879 (OP)
bump, i approve of this message

>>41037879 (OP)
>We don’t have room for unserious people
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

>>41037879 (OP)
>water down the definition of transgender
Now you know how we feel about the words "man, woman, they, and them."

>>41037990
>there's a unique concern around transgender people though because of the likelihood of mental illness with them
yup, too many of these kids are dosed up on a dozen drugs and none of them being hormones, they just want trans title.

>>41040354
No... Just someone who wants the title

>>41041947
no, I didn't expect you to read it, not in the slightest
I don't expect you to read this either
I expected you to insult me, possibly call me a slur, and definitely double-down on what you said while informing me you refuse to read it
and I had you pegged to a T! no pun intended
I wrote it anyway because in that 0.1% of universes where you do read it, maybe your perspective shifts to be more loving. maybe you even realize something you keep denying yourself is what you've needed all along. like embracing your sexuality or gender? I don't know
maybe you realize you deserve the joy you see us all living, wherever it will come from for you
that chance is more than worth it, in my opinion, would be worth a hundred essays. don't get the wrong idea: you're not special, as in the fact that I'm writing an essay has nothing to do with you. I do this for a lot of people. but I do care deeply about you, as much as anyone else as obviously hurting
that's the difference between you and me
in the self-hating state of mind you occupy now, you will never stop trying to create misery for other people, no matter how much love they show you--until you're bumped out of your sick state of mind by someone who really cares. me, or someone else
meanwhile, I'll never stop trying to love you and people like you, until something I've said has reminded you that you deserve love
you remind me so much of the tough-acting 13-year-olds at the schools I substitute for, fronting strength to the whole world until a bit of gentleness and compassion reminds you that not everyone is out to harm you
you deserve love
I'll sing it over your vilest hatred until you believe it

>>41042514
>another schizo ramble essay
Stay. Away. From. Kids.

this trangender woman probably has a massive dick, tyler probably got fucked in his bussy by this "woman"

>>41042880
good luck healing your soul, my dear
you can do it

>>41042946
>schizo with blown out anus tries to be condescending
Lol

>>41037879 (OP)
You can definitely blame men with low-Kinsey bisexual tendencies towards sex target issues.
However, you can also blame the theyfabs. And the transmascs, especially, for making "gender" a transtrender bullshit diagnosis.

>>41037923
I would argue "trans" really just means, "between".
Artificial intersex.
Some female traits plastered on top of male (gonadal) sex / functional sex.

>>41037879 (OP)
yup

>valid
Dumbshit term for losers.

> That you can be a heckin valid woman without any sort of body modifications
Trans people lived for thousands upon thousands of years with zero body modifications, not even HRT, available to them. Many trannies living in impoverished nations still don't have access to said body modifications. Are they "invalid"? And if so, what does that even entail and why should anyone care? You want to throw them in prison now?

>Then they started claiming even social transition isn’t necessary. Trying to push the idea that so-called “boymoders” can be either women or transgender.
A boymoder, by definition, is someone who wants to transition. I do think that is an important distinction. Just like there can be a gay virgin who wants to have sex with men but is still gay, there is a boymode transgender person who wants to live as a woman but still is working on passing or gathering a social safety net or courage or whatever. Call them whatever you want, but everyone has been there at one point. They are in the proverbial transgender community

And who cares if they are? Because a specific culture war talking point that rightoids will forget about by this point next week? Do you really think they'll care if you call yourself a transsexual? If anything rightoids are MORE disgusted by neovaginas than they are by HRT boymoders.

>>41038835
>because we're comparing any negative outcomes of transitioning with the chief negative outcomes of *not* transitioning, which are lifelong depression, severe social dysfunction, and for many (including me had I not transitioned), suicide
so in the first place, fertility is minor negative outcome because of what we're forced to weigh it against
not to be too particular, but going back to what the 'minor' discussion was brought about by, the article you linked, it didn't mention 'lifelong' depression as it was focusing on teenagers. that said, I do agree with you to an extent. if you are dead, you can't have kids; if you are depressed, it's very unlikely you will want to or, if you do have them while depressed, you will likely struggle to enjoy that fact. but still I wouldn't say it's minor in comparison, as depending on the person and for many people your children are the most important and joyous part of your life. maybe I'm being pedantic, though.
>are you suggesting that we outlaw trans youth care for everyone because some might make rash decisions that don't consider their fertility? or are the implications of your viewpoint simply that we require trans teens who want hormone therapy to undergo mental healthcare to be sure they've properly considered fertility? because if what you want is the second, that's what we already do. so I don't know what exactly your question is
I'm not generally in the business of making moral prescriptions - and I don't believe I have up to this point - but I wouldn't necessarily oppose it, just depends on the particulars of "trans youth care". not to say you're wrong, exactly, but I currently don't know the exact extent to which mental healthcare is provided to trans minors and what it looks like practically, so I want to minimize making statements on it. (1/?)

>>41043076
but as it stands, while there are going to be some number of people who hold the same view regarding child rearing in adolescence as in later adulthood, it is one of those things that I don't think they're going to properly consider while an adolescent.
>to suggest that after 2-4 years of undergoing puberty blockers a teen is unable to make an informed decision for their own life, especially at age 15-16, is a dysfunctional attitude toward teen autonomy; by that age, teens NEED to have increasing control over their lives because they're within two Christmases of being full adults capable of signing legal documents
loosely I can agree about practical benefits to parents and adults facilitating control of more personal autonomy and responsibility in a teens life, but whether that "NEEDS" to include the ability to make their own decisions about taking puberty blockers and eventually hormones I'm not so sure about; that there aren't other ways to deal with their (assumed) gender dysphoria that would work just as well if not better. but this is where it gets tricky and you start getting into loaded language like "better", "work", "good", etc.
>and they could just as easily regret not be allowed to transition, only in that case, they will have felt like the world tied their hands when they most needed freedom
it is *possible*, but I'm not sure if it's just as likely. maybe it is, who knows?
>which sounds worse for mental health for you, assuming we don't know the outcome in advance: being allowed to make a bold and free choice that honestly seemed correct at the time only to realize it was a mistake, or to be forbidden by the legal structure of your country from doing something that seemed like the correct choice?
in isolation, the latter. but that hypothetical includes nothing of the potential additional things someone or a family might additionally do in the latter case to minimize or even change the child's negative mental state. (2/?)

>>41043099
>forcing a trans teen to undergo a natal ("wrong") puberty when they have spent years expressing a desire not to do so is exactly the same as forcibly transitioning a cis child. there is no meaningful difference, unless we begin with the assumption that being trans is wrong, aberrative, or undesirable
I personally don't feel that it's wrong in a moral sense, and certainly if an adult wants to do it - to their betterment or detriment - I'm generally not opposed, but, and I really hope this doesn't come off as me being rude, I think it's a legitimate question of whether it is fundamentally an aberration (in the sense of a mental illness or disorder). this doesn't mean I think we should ostracize trans people, make fun of them, etc., but I'm very skeptical of the notion that there is such a thing as a "wrong" puberty and that letting a child go through their natural biological course in spite of their desire not to should be considered "force"; certainly that that would be bad (as I assume you aren't an anarchist, so to speak, when it comes to the freedoms of children). (3/3)

>>41039525
respectfully, you're making a false dichotomy which leaves no room for simple ignorance. surely you don't think everyone who disagrees with you always comes to their conclusions with all of the relevant information, right? couldn't I earnestly care but, because of my lack of knowledge of the subject or some bias I'm not aware of, come to the wrong conclusions? perhaps I won't be able to convince you of my good faith, but maybe you'll have consideration for other potential anons reading this thread or its archive in the future: could you provide me of any sources *you specifically* know of supporting that this preservation is a "solved problem"? to be frank I hadn't heard about cryopreservation until you mentioned it, but from the little I've read so far it's generally regarded positively but not exactly a "solved problem" - not for adults, let alone teenagers.

>>41043076
>so in the first place, fertility is minor negative outcome because of what we're forced to weigh it against
yes
you are correct that lifelong studies on trans youth are still ongoing, because society has not entertained the idea kids can be trans until now
we're entertaining it and lo: there are tons of trans kids whose lives improve via treatment
>I currently don't know the exact extent to which mental healthcare is provided to trans minors and what it looks like practically
for exactly the reasons you (and me, and everyone) is concerned about, mental healthcare is an integral part of all trans care
there is no explicit legal requirement, but virtually all gender affirming care providers (and I imagine most parents) require that a child asking for hormonal intervention demonstrate more than momentary interest in transition
>I'm not generally in the business of making moral prescriptions
I appreciate that; however, I can't help but feel a universal restriction on trans youth care is what's implied by your points here, and I wish you would be more direct about what you're suggesting
because to me, the only system that makes sense is a system in which parents and trans kids, together with their doctors, have the right to choose
in which case this is all academic and whether the kids choose right or wrong is an personal matter
even if we take the the worst detransition stat, about 15%, that means that for every five kids that believe they're trans, four actually are, and only one will realize it was a mistake
holding the four trans kids hostage and condemning them to the wrong puberty and the wrong body for life, when they pleaded for the opposite, to save one cis kid who might have made a mistake, is far worse than enabling one cis kid to make a wrong decision they truly believed was good while enforcing misery on four trans kids who would have made the right decision
to suggest otherwise is to believe cis kids are inherently more valuable than trans kids

>>41037879 (OP)
I transitioned so I could feel and look sexier when I get fucked from behind.

>>41043099
>whether that "NEEDS" to include the ability to make their own decisions about taking puberty blockers and eventually hormones I'm not so sure about
you are installing yourself as an arbiter for what is required for these kids--that's not your concern. they are not you, you are not in their head, and do not understand their experience.
you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, trying to suggest you don't want to restrict trans youth care while questioning whether it's really necessary
it's difficult to escape a strong educated guess of how you would vote if, say, there were a binding national referendum on a trans youth care ban
if I have you wrong please tell me
>that there aren't other ways to deal with their (assumed) gender dysphoria that would work just as well if not better
research is more or less absolute on this point: gender affirming care works, and it is the only thing that truly works
"what if they don't actually have to be this way" is the same mentality behind conversation camps
>it is *possible*, but I'm not sure if it's just as likely. maybe it is, who knows?
we know. detransition statistics are not ambiguous: even in the most unflattering studies, for every one person who detransitions realizing they made a mistake, four others make the correct choice
of those who detransition, the vast majority retransition later because transition was in fact the right choice, and it was social pressure/hatred that led to their detransition
this is the same finding that myself and others pointed you to in multiple pieces of peer-reviewed research form the U.S. National Library of Medicine, and it has been replicated again and again and again
>who knows?
we do?
and if I sound a teensy bit exasperated?
forgive me, but I am
I can happily discuss with someone unaware of the evidence; I struggle to continue engaging when someone dismisses evidence because it is troublesome to a conception they entered the discussion with

>>41043110
>I think it's a legitimate question of whether it is fundamentally an aberration
and there we have the end of this conversation
if you allow yourself to believe that in any capacity, we are not arguing on equal footing
you've been disingenuous from the start, viewing me and everyone like me (and the kids like us) as some violation of nature--this third post of yours has endless examples of such language
tell me:
why, in the face of enormous scientific evidence supporting the idea that transition is "natural" in the sense that it promotes a child's or adult's best life when managed carefully and thoughtfully considered, do you continue to insinuate that a ban on trans youth care would be better?
how is it that your feelings overturn
>1) a (relatively) wide and well-substantiated, well-replicated body of scientific literature in support of youth transition;
>2) unequivocal statistics on adult transition showing that the vast majority, approaching 99%, live happier, fuller lives and are substantially less likely to commit suicide;
>3) A parent's, child's, and physician's trifecta of personal responsibility and autonomy
in short, why should you be able to decide for that family what is acceptable for them?
why should you be able to have any say in youth trans care that has no personal effect on you?
unless you are in fact, as you insisted you were not, making moral prescriptions?
if you can't start from the assumption that being trans is just as normal and valid as being cis, we can't really talk about anything; you're asking me to discuss on the basis of my presumed inferiority and attendantly inferior ethical/moral status as a human
or again--if I have it wrong, tell me
I'm just following your ideas to their natural conclusions as I see them because you don't chase them to their ends yourself

>>41037879 (OP)
Dysphoria is the bodily dismorphic disorder that often leads to transsexuality, transsexuality is the action of mimicking the opposite sex through clothing, surgery and the use of hormones.
"Transgenderism" obeys the same postmodern school of thought that teaches that gender is a social construct and not actually linked to biology, which is false, gendered behaviors are inextricably tied to out biology and have been observed in animals and infants too young to be socialized at all, the first proponents of this insane idea were literally a bunch of old pedophiles, most famously John Money, who falsified the results of his experiments for decades to claim that gender is a social construct by insisting that a boy with a botched circumcision (David Reimer, born Brandon Reimer, later renamed "Brenda"), who was later fully castrated and put on hormones, had been successfully socialized as a girl, when in reality "Brenda" grew up extremely butch, feeling a total disinterest for anything girly, deveoped "lesbian" feelings in his teens and immediately retransitioned to live as a man once finding out the truth.
The very use of the term "transgender" and not the proper term transsexual gives lip service to the deranged idea that gender is an identity that people can put on and take off at will, and enables the mockery of those who suffer genuine dysphoric disorders that we now know as "non-binary", the autogynephiles and autoandrophiles who present their fetishes as legitimate sexual identities, and random perverts who use the concept of gender self-determination to invade women's private spaces.

>>41044087
Not the person you’re responding to. But if you said this even 10 years I would have agreed.

But now? It’s truly become a social contagion. In the same way it used to be in the 2010s that the entirety of every LGBTQ club in high school was made up of “bi” girls who only ever dated men.

Except instead of something harmless like taking a label—now with this we’re giving them medicine that affects their bodies.

Numerous European countries are actually reconsidering their policies in regards to youth transitioning because the new research coming out is saying that most people end up “growing out of it”.

I don’t doubt that transgender people exist, I don’t doubt their struggle. What I do doubt, is the idea that children should be encouraged and be able to transition and do possibly life altering medications.

There’s such a push for this, and saying that “they know”, well if they’re so knowledgeable why do we have laws that restrict them doing anything adults can do? Why is it that psychologists always say that the brain isn’t mature and is impulsive until the age of 25?

Trans people have been transitioning for a long time. As adults. And they live long healthy lives even though they go through puberty.

I don’t understand this logic of pushing drugs on kids who are just dealing with the confusion of being young. Like I really don’t. Especially when the numbers have been increasing so much that it’s even making medical professionals question what’s going on.

>>41044510
>Numerous European countries are actually reconsidering their policies in regards to youth transitioning because the new research coming out is saying that most people end up “growing out of it”.
It's not even new. Zucker was thrown out on zero evidence, and the people who pushed him out never actually proved under exactly what piaget age and developmental stages you should intervene in the years after.

Even today I would slap my staff endo rubberstamper in the face with a balldo to get a clean, high quality study on exactly when transition is NOT advised and complete fucking protocols on what to try instead. Hell, some detransition/retransition protocols would be fucking great.

>>41042973
tonight at 11: local man spends evenings imagining about the anuses of transgender women on the internet, accuses others of mental health deficiencies
did you honestly think that was some sort of dunk you living breathing lmfao?

I think she's heckin valid, you transphobic bigot.

>>41044510
imagine with me. you are 16 years old. you have spent four years working with a therapist and having daily conversations with your parents about where you're at with your transition--are you happy? do you want to stop? do you want to continue? is this right for you?
you know this is a life-altering decision and you know it may be a mistake--but that applies to everything, and after four years it's never seemed wrong. if it was the wrong choice, there's always "going back," which would be no different than being trans in the first place
your therapist agrees you're making a conscientious, thoughtful decision; your parents are impressed with how thoroughly you've researched the implications; your doctor agrees with your therapist that you're making an informed decision. you're all set to start your medication
and then a hundred million adults you've never met or even heard of decide that your medical decision is not acceptable, is actually guaranteed to harm you because someone else must have put the idea in your head, you can't possibly want it for yourself--even though you've just spent four years carefully confirming that's not the case
how does that feel?
it is entirely possible that some people end up wanting to transition out of social contagion;
and it's absurd to think very many people start there and then spend years socially transitioning or taking blockers in or later hormone medications that aren't right for them
I'm sure it happens
to hold the tens of thousands of trans youth requesting care hostage due to that undoubtedly much smaller proportion responding to social contagion is a horrible seizure of someone else's autonomy--a whole family's ability to make medical decisions in response to their lives
in any other context we'd find it unthinkable and it's a deep-cutting sign of anti-trans prejudice that no one seems to acknowledge it

>>41037961
You just need to get better at self delusions.
For example: If a nutcase on the street corner believed he was the King of France, and some teens came up and mocked him and convinced him he wasn’t and then the guy roped, 9/10 would be cross with the teens.

If trannyism is reframed as a mental illness you have to go along with because the person is sick, then all these issues would disappear over night.

The problem trannys cause is that they force massive cognitive dissonance on the population at large.
I don’t have to restrain myself to not call my black coworkers violent, or my female coworkers dumb whores, or my Mexican coworkers lazy, because on the whole they just aren’. It’s not something which requires effort or which I have to actively think about.
But to remember to call a 5’11” left tackle looking mfer with a voice deeper than mine miss or I’ll be sentenced to 3 weeks of training, that’s an imposition.

retards not knowing shes one of us

>>41037923
You are not changing your sex unless you get srs

>>41045871
crazy.

male presenting troons tend to be MORE dysphoric and LESS autistic than she/hef hons, passers excluded

>>41037879 (OP)
Ok I fucking hate trenders but you don’t know what you’re talking about

If a sex-dysphoric trutrans who hormonally transitions to cure her body of the poison of testosterone and also happens to pass, why the fuck does it matter to you if she’s socially transitioned or not?

>>41038074
>>41040208
samefag