Thread 41352994

Biological sex is fundamentally tied to the production of gametes. Specifically, it is the size of these gametes that determines sex: the males producing small, motile gametes (sperm) and females producing larger, non-motile gametes (eggs). The type of gamete an organism produces is the basis for its sex classification in the biological definition of sex.

Gender is just another word for sex, or sex identity. Superficial.

You’re just going to summon the biology hating freaks OP

>>41353008
They don’t hate biology they’re just unhappy with the words used to define or describe it

tldr?

>>41353127
There’s no such thing as a third sex/gender (for now - praise be to the science of the future) and trannies are insane mentally ill freaks?

>>41352994 (OP)
i'm a developmental biologist and i study sex determination specifically. my stance on this is who gives a shit? what does gamete size have to do with trans people taking hormones and things like bathrooms or whatever? like seriously...

also don't pretend you understand anything about the actual biology of sex lol

>>41353209
umm ca u make it shorter plzzzzzzz

>>41353271
Some trannies try to justify their position beyond "I just want to" by citing hormones changing fundamental biological function. As though if you just shift to an average female hormone balance they have suddenly become women. And then when people point out the fallacies with this they make bad faith arguments like infertile people being un-gendered or just dismissing anatomical structure as irrelevant or circumstantial. With a more scientifically strict breakdown like OP's you get a more strict description than just "you don't have a womb or ovaries" so they can't dismiss the point as easily unless if they want to engage with the actual literature regarding the topic.
The reason people would care is the language policing had gotten to the point in some countries where biologists like you couldn't accurately teach science without compromising the laws made to protect trans people from ridicule. People give a shit because even if you agree people shouldn't be allowed to be inordinately mean to trannies, it shouldn't come at the cost of truth and passing fascist speech control laws under the guise of helping the trans community. If you can't speak coherently and clearly on the matter, or as with some people I've spoken to, they actively refuse to make trans identity properly definable, we can't make meaningful progress on the issue. You can't help a community you can't accurately define, it just opens the door to more abuse and misuse by malevolent parties.

TL;DR Anyone that cares about trans rights, that is to say human rights, should give a shit. As well as anyone that has any faith in the function of democracy and the sciences, since being careless with said human rights has the potential to hurt both of those as well.

>>41353649
it's kind of retarded to say "male and female is about gamete size" for individuals. gamete size affected the evolution of human sexes, but hormones change which human developmental pathways your body goes down. you can be born male but acquire female traits. and, if you start hrt early, you've basically developed the exact same way as any infertile member of the opposite sex.

the fact you think gamete size matters for whether or not you call a tranny a man or a woman makes me think you're just parroting things you saw on twitter. it's a non-sequitor.

>>41352994 (OP)
You're confusing things like the concept of sex and a system of classification that was chosen because it seems to have good stability. The fact that gametes were chosen over other things should tell you that everything else is far less stable.

>>41353127
trans women are male men
trans men are female women
trans people are lying about their appearance and identity to deceive you on purpose

>>41353718
>if you start hrt early, you've basically developed the exact same way as any infertile member of the opposite sex
How early do you need to start for that to be true? How late before it's no longer a sufficient supplement to still be valid?
If the hormones make them female, why the need for plastic surgery?
How do you account for socialization?
By what metric do you justify the necessity for hormone therapy? People might agree the dysphoric have a medical need for hormone therapy, it'd be less clear cut if you argue it as a generalized medical necessity.

>>41353718
>if you start hrt early, you've basically developed the exact same way as any infertile member of the opposite sex.
bullshit
this is lies or you would PROVE this
chromosomes make you male and female
hormones can only slightly alter things, and not enough to matter

>>41353800
it depends. in trans men you need to start earlier to look the same as a cis guy than trans women. teenagers for both.

you only need facial surgery if you start too late and develop male. and even then the only thing the surgery does is "change bone sizes in face". do you think the size of bones in your face is the difference between being male and female? i assume not.

i think everyone with gender dysphoria needs hormone therapy.

>>41353805
every trans person who starts by around 15 looks literally exactly the same as opposite sex. you can see that yourself you retard.

chromosomes have no direct way of making your body look like anything. everything DNA does it does via signals. hormones ARE the signal.

>>41353974
>looks literally exactly the same as opposite sex
you are lying
>you can see that yourself you retard.
no I think they look like their birth sex more still

>>41353983
who? show me a trans person who started hrt by 15 who doesn't pass.

>>41353991
you make the claim, you prove it
inb4 anglefraud to prove it
you wouldn't have to lie with angles if you actually passed

>>41354001
i don't pass. when i was 15 i started estrogen but got force detransitioned. i'm talking about people who had it better than me.

"no I think they look like their birth sex more still" i have a hunch you've literally never seen a trans person who started as a teenager. you just made this up fully.

>>41354047
no tranny on earth passes

>>41354056
retard alarm

>>41354047
I have literally clocked pre-pubescent "trans girls" on a public bus before. You always look male when you can't distort or hide your true appearance.

— “You can inject hormones of opposite sex, but your body produces and reacts better to your own.”

— “This indeed causes trannies to become a third option - dysgenic sickly freaks that are less emotionally stable than women, because women's bodies can manage estrogen better, same other way around, women on test get completely fucked up too, but we don't call them trannies, we call them athletes and MtF trannies still mog them, because male body with estrogen is still a male body, same for a woman.”

— “Even if you bath your baby boy in estrogen in womb, even if you inject him with estrogen since first minute post birth, even if you tell him that he's a woman, he will still grow up to be a male, very fucked up one, subhuman. There are men, women, and subhumans.”

>>41353764
/thread

Trans women are men who want to be treated as women. Trans men are women who want to be treated as men.

No different from drag queens and cross dressers. They just make it their entire fucking life.

>>41354068
inb4 it was just some cis girl that didnt have huge tits and/or ass

>>41352994 (OP)
>Muh gametes
Literally who cares.
>Gender is just another word for sex.
You tards genuinely cannot fathom that if something looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and behaves like a duck it will be treated like a duck, even if it isn't biologically one. Gender is the appearance (or perception) of a given biological sex.
>>41353209
Most non passing trannies are treated as a third gender.
Claiming trans women are treated like cis men when you look at things like hiring bias etc is profoundly retarded.
>>41354925
Drag queens and crossies dont want to be treated as the opposite sex/gender. You are a retarded cishet tourist and need to go back to twitter/reddit/anywhere else

>>41353127
Women produce eggs and bear children
Men produce sperm and impregnate women
That's what sex is, that's what gender is.

>>41355745
No it was clearly a boy who was gonna be castrated.

>>41356018
>You tards genuinely cannot fathom that if something looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and behaves like a duck it will be treated like a duck
But that's precisely what we can fathom, and that's why you're still treated as the sex you were born with. If a wolf dresses like a duck, I'm gonna know it's a goddamn fucking wolf.

>>41356018
trannies never prove that some trans women are perceived as women

>>41352994 (OP)
my body doesnt produce any gametes what am i

>>41356730
male, transgenderism is an ideology rooted in the belief that castration is a change in belonging to sex class

>>41356742
idk i still believe im a man but i like estrogen so im gonna be a man on estrogen

>>41356754
hopefully the government forced you off estrogen soon so you stop being so smug

>>41356761
i buy it illegally
also why shouldnt i be able to go on estrogen as a male? im not even smug about it imo

nuh uh

Why do chuds pretend they're intellectuals when doing nothing past parroting words they themselves clearly do not understand?

>>41356768
because you are enforcing gender norms

>>41353649
>With a more scientifically strict breakdown like OP's you get a more strict description than just "you don't have a womb or ovaries" so they can't dismiss the point as easily unless if they want to engage with the actual literature regarding the topic.
This is not a "detailed" point though, it's just "anything i feel is female is female and amything i feel is male is male"
You're a falseflaggot and should kill yourself

>>41356790
how. IM A MAN
dont you get tired of having the EXACT SAME conversation with me every week??

let me just outline why estrogen as a male is so useful:
> slows hair growth, makes hair not grow in certain areas so i have to shave less
> curves which are nice to look at
> gives me a more androgynous appearance as opposed to testosterone masculinizing me further
how is that not based? How is it bad that i get to express myself in the way i want. Im not telling YOU to go on estrogen.

>>41352994 (OP)
how about you superficially suckle on my dicky wicky

>>41356806
because you are chemically castrating yourself to cope with being an autistic weirdo because women are terrified you might breed
you literally got psyopped

>>41356831
you are just being mean
im also exclusively attracted to men xdd

>>41353649
this thread is bait but i am going to mention something.
i had to go to the hospital last week and get urology done because i have mullerian ducts. I had ovotestes before but that didn't really matter but this combination, i produce mucus.

As far as I'm aware i've never produced gametes and im xxy chimeric. >>41352994 (OP)
also yeah fucking even militaries (save the USA) seperate gender from sex because passing trannies (say, hirja) behave like women and wont interact with men. gender is a cultural perception of sex, but perception isnt always reality.

>>41356850
>im also exclusively attracted to men xdd
hello alan turing

>>41356863
it's okay anon. One day you will get it
maybe if the evil women let you out of the cage you will one day be able to use your brain

>>41356862
the problem is society cannot conscientiously acknowledge that some men act INTERSEX
in between men and women, but closer to how males act, to admit some males have elements of clearly female behavior, but a preponderance of male elements on top of that - is strictly forbidden by the matriarchy

>>41356871
what the fuck are you talking about here.
'have elements but preponderance of....'
some females have clearly male behaviour but...
a) who decides what behaviour is male or female
b) its 2 ships of theseus heading toward each other and trading parts
c) look into hirja in myanmar. look how they get strategically raped and figure how thats different from the men.
society and perception doesnt actually give a fuck about your theoretical perception.

>>41353271
>who gives a shit?
YOU, nigga. Ur a developmental biologist remember?

>>41356913
the idea that a man can behave in between how a man and a woman typically behave, but closer to how a male behaves, is not accepted

>>41356923
except in a lot places (that arent undergoing genocide) trans people, intersex people, and gender non-conforming people are accepted
just cause you're stubborn and frankly a little retarded, doesnt mean every society is

>>41356934
there is no country on earth where non estrogenized feminine gay men are socially integrated

>>41354068
>>41356598
>transvestigating actual children out in public
>imagining their genitals
>"but if it weren't for trannies i wouldn't have to imagine that child's cock"

>>41353805
i dont want to derail an otherwise interesting thread with a reply like "lol idiot" but i feel like i have to tell you that this comment was the one that outed you as not knowing anything about the topic that you're talking about, newfriend. If you understood what chromosomes do you wouldn't have said
>chromosomes make you male and female
and not started malding about it.
>>41353800
I'm a social anthropologist and a lot of what we do is try to study and quantify abstract things like this. The nuance here is too much to succinctly explain in a single comment and unfortunately that's exactly why topics like these ones end up in skullduggery and shitflinging in the public sphere. The answer is "it's incredibly complicated" to any of these things, and yet people crave a simple answer, so the people like OP who invent crude and immature snappy phrases end up feeling like they're right just because they're too daft to realise what they dont know. And then people who also dont realise the depth of the topic see that and call it "common sense" and start jerking themselves off at how those pesky liberals can't answer a simple question like "what is a woman"

it's an easy way to recognise idiots but unfortunately these idiots genuinely want to make other people suffer because they can't realise how daft they are.

>>41356986
that is such a weird statement i don't even know where to start.
a) why are we now talking about non-estrogenised?
b) go to google. search (your country) WPS NAP. ctrl f, gender diverse, LGBTQ+, SOGEI, transgender or gender. you will find something.

Fuck off cunt

chromosomes make you male or female

Derp

>>41356789
Chuds are intellectuals. Chuds are kings. Chuds are the chosen ones.

>>41352994 (OP)
all words are "superficial". language is a social construct.
besides, are you against EVERY single social construct? or just this one?

gender emerges from sex but is culturally defined in its expression
retard

The question has never been "what is sex/gender" its "should we legally define trans women as women" which really has nothing to do with biology and more to do with is the gov allowed to control their citizens bodies? Trans values are libertarian values

>>41353718
This is factually incorrect. Estrogenizing HRT proves to have many negative side effects on AMAB individuals, likely stemming from estrogen levels higher than pregnancy, and suppression of the body’s natural hormone production
>blood clots
>osteoporosis
>reduced sexual function
>diminished sex drive
>genital pain
>muscular atrophy
Your body isn’t meant to run on this shit. It’s like filling up a diesel with gasoline. It is harmful and destructive to trans-identifying individuals and those around them.

>>41360579
>muscular atrophy
women have less muscle
>osteoporosis
>blood clots
women have higher risk of that due to... guess.
>genital pain
just jerk it regularly dumbass
>reduced sexual function
>diminished sex drive
welcome to being a woman retard

>>41352994 (OP)
> Gender is just another word for sex
False. Thanks for playing tho!

>>41360409
>should we legally define trans women as women
No. They go into “Other”.

>>41360612
You’re kidding yourself if you think that these happen in cis women at the same rate. Taking copious amounts of estrogen magnifies all these issues to 11. News flash, it’s not normal to get blood clots and have groin pain. Not to mention cis women are very horny. Not… whatever it is that happens to trannies.

>>41352994 (OP)
I don't produce sperm. Do I not have biological sex?

>>41360850
>same rate
That being...?

>>41360866
Why do you not consider the lead up to your ability/inability to produce sperm? Do you think this inability of yours didn’t originally set out to eventually be able to develop sperm? Do you really think this?

It’s not whether you produce sperm or not that makes you a male. It’s the production path. Your path ended up a failure. You’re a dysfunctional male. That’s it.

>>41356742
>sex is small gametes/large gametes
>but also it's not gametes it's something else because.... it just is okay

>>41360947
>dysfunctional male
By your standards I am not one.

>>41360973
Yeah. You’re sadly too unintelligent to understand what it is I am saying.

>>41360973
He’s saying your development path was [Male] it just didn’t successfully reach the point of proper sperm production. How is this so hard to understand? You really do just think with your heart and not your brain. This isn’t poetic it’s just fucking sad. You’re a huge part of the problem if you cannot think for yourself.

>>41361005
>going back to "anything i call male is male!"
Hmm

>>41361102
You’re not a very smart individual.

>>41361125
>no argument

>>41361171
I gave you my argument. You’re just unable to parse it. That’s what I mean when I say you’re not intelligent.

>>41360986
>>41361005
We wouldn't call a fetus a living human because it has yet to be born. We shouldn't call someone a male because they have the capacity for being one

>>41361592
>We wouldn't call a fetus a living human because it has yet to be born
…….

>>41361592
Least insane troonoid

>>41361648
Trannies belong in an asylum.

>>41361102
MtF here. His argument >>41361005 is correct. My counter to it is that if someone is born with non-functioning or ambiguous genitals they are considered intersex whereas if one induces this through hormones or surgery they're just considered still completely male. Clearly this is a double standard.

>>41361742
Trans women are completely male.

>>41361753
If you are phenotypically female you aren't completely male

>>41360947
>Do you think this inability of yours didn’t originally set out to eventually be able to develop sperm
no, as I reject the notion of natural teleology as natural processes have no intentionality and therefore can not have finality

>>41352994 (OP)
real biology understanders out here lmao

>>41356790
yes, and?
that is neither a crime nor immoral, gincel. If you have freedom of speech, you necessarily have the freedom to uphold gender norms if you will.

I don’t hate trannies I just wish they’d understand basic fucking biology, fuck.

>>41362844
Impossible

>>41362844
>basic biology
Have you read any biological textbook from the last 30 years? They all clearly define sex and gender as separate things and establish sex as a collection of characteristics comprising a complete model. Not a single one would define sex and gender as purely your chromosomes or gametes. Plenty of animals don't fit into a 1st grade dichotomy of sex, even though that's the initial introduction to the concept. Sorry you never got past that step but it's far more complicated.

I have two testicles and one ovary, what gender am I op?

>>41352994 (OP)
>>41353008
Why did you reply to yourself?

>>41352994 (OP)
>>41353098
>>41353209
>>41353764
Eggs from men, sperm from women: how stem cell science may change how we reproduce
https://theconversation.com/eggs-from-men-sperm-from-women-how-stem-cell-science-may-change-how-we-reproduce-219005

Trans women are women.
Trans men are men.
Sex is mutable.

Your claims were refuted.

>>41356666
Never seen a passoid before apparently. Like it's pointless because you could see the most perfect youngshit passoid and you'd still try and find something to deny the blindingly obvious fact that they pass
>>41356617
You literally cant tell it's not a duck visually that's the entirety hypothetical here cishet iq must be in the dumpster i stg

>>41361192
>seething

>>41365432
>Bitch

>>41353279
ywnbaw

I’m so sorry Richard Dawkins that you have to live to such an age in such an age of stupidity.

>>41365217
passing is a myth

>>41352994 (OP)
the only biological sex is the one i have with your mom

>>41367698
hahaha
whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Why am I asked if I am pregnant, could be pregnant, if I am on or off my period when I go to the doctors?
They should have this on file yet still ask.

They are always surprised.

I had the women at the pharmacy think im on HRT for menopause
"you're too young to be going through this" *tells her im trans* "but your so feminine I would have never have guessed"

Passing isnt a myth, you just literally cannot tell.

Cope and seethe.

>>41352994 (OP)
Yes but non gammate producing people are eunuch thus neither male nor female

>>41368658
Um. No. That’s not how it works. You just failed to produce gametes. That’s all.

>>41353649

The definition of sex is about more than. Just gamete size though. People didn't know about gametes or chromosomes,sex originally was determined by genitalia. If you are born with CAIS you will still be "determined" to be female sexed despite your chromosomes. Sex is also distinct from gender given that entities can be gendered without possessing a biological sex.

>>41353800

>acknowledges gender is a product of socialization only when convenient.

>denies this possibility when it's not convenient.

Sex is a hash function taking in two parameters and outputting a unique value. Unless you have a locally instantialized parameter value in the sex function you are functionally and biologically asexual.

>>41353649
>bad faith arguments like infertile people being un-gendered
this isn't a bad faith argument, it's a straightforward implication of OP's stated definition
his "developmental path" shit is an attempt to smuggle the cluster view of sex back in without having to give an account of why trans people don't cluster with their hormonal sex

>>41356991
iver noticed this trend, im sure many have, and yet cis ppl are completely oblivious to their strange behaviour. although terfs and tranny-haters are in the minority of norm cishet society it must be said. so many arguments of cis ppl about why trannies are le bad, eventually devolve into talking about the sexual prospects of a child. they obsess over the idea that children are having their gentials mutilated or their breats cut off, and this makes them mad because this allegedly groomed child will no longer be able to experience their sexual prime and reproduce. i recall a tweet from elon musk talking about it. the cis obsession with childrens genitals is insane, and mirrored in their argument against us, believing that we are the ones going after kids sexual organs. i can't say ive ever looked at a kid on the street and imagined what it would be like for them to have sex and reproduce, but hey, im the abnormal tranny must be something wrong with me. maybe if i was normal and cis i'd be thinking about a child's penis on a daily basis like i should.

There’s no solution to solving this issue when humans are perfectly fine being stupid if it makes them feel better for it.