Thread 41404024

It's not about being homosexual vs being asexual, meta-bisexual, or heterosexual.

It's about whether you can go through male puberty, transition, and pass. If you can't, then you're not HSTS.

The reason it works that way is that HSTS undervirilize prenatally, and whatever caused that will also cause undervirilization during male puberty. Additionally, skeletal dimorphism begins prenatally. Studies show significant differences in facial and pelvic morphology between males and females. If you undervirilize prenatally, then you'll get female-leaning bone structure.

People like sillyolme are AGPs pretending to be HSTS. She obviously virilized just fine during puberty given the photo on her website which shows her at age 18.

Blanchard himself wrote that it was unclear whether HSTS actually express a desire to be female in early childhood. The claim that early vocalization of a female identity means HSTS is a lie pushed by early-onset AGPs pretending to be HSTS.

Want to prove you're not AGP? Wait until after puberty finishes before transitioning.

can i ask what you are?

>Want to prove you're not AGP? Wait until after puberty finishes before transitioning.
Kek

but yeah early onset agp is much more common than one may think

>>41404033
I'm an undervirilized male who would likely have transitioned had I not managed to find a boyfriend.

>>41404046
HSTS need all the pubertal testosterone they can get for their long-term bone health. Meanwhile AGPs typically don't end up passing even with early transition.

>>41404068
Ah fuck I'm AGP so I want a man to break my bones while fucking me. You're right I'm such a calciumhon!

>>41404068
oh. a repper. good

>>41404115
"Repping" is exclusive to AGPs.

Proto-HSTS hope to masculinize enough at puberty to succeed as men. HSTS are the result when that doesn't happen.

>>41404024 (OP)
this is only half true. there are undermasculinised and overmasculinised homosexual male phenotypes, as apparently you well know >>41404068

theres also, once you actually have transitioned, you will learn that psychologically people retain all the hallmarks of their upbringing post transition. a gay male remains a gay male, as does a straight boy. this is the most reliable indicator of hussy/jeep, can you smell the straight boy on them at all?

i apparently pass on 4chan. really i have the kind of asymmetrical masculinisation that is common in autistic males combined with the signs of high estrogen exposure prenatally. my proportions are upper end of female, but my actual skeletal growth pattern is male. all this shows less in photos than it does in person, creating the illusion of passing.

>>41404147
>Proto-HSTS hope to masculinize enough at puberty to succeed as men. HSTS are the result when that doesn't happen.
it's me

>>41404024 (OP)
Mfw can't prove I'm not agp because blockers at 16 (or 16.5 to be entirely honest)

>>41404147
youre failing to see the hussy side of repping, which does exist. hussies truly believe they can make it and they do it out of genuine love of men, but the process of doing so is exhausting and damaging to their underlying mental health.

>>41404204
but anon being hsts is repping being gay

>>41404222
thats only part true, see >>41404164
you can keep the gay boy alive in your soul if you really try to hold on

>>41404239
no, taking hrt is done to repress being gay because you think you can escape gayness by taking chemicals

>>41404164
Hypermasculine homosexual males have no need to transition unless they're AGP. Gay men are attracted to masculinity, which they have in spades. Hypomasculine homosexual males ones are the ones for whom transition can result in a net improvement.

There are so many AGPs nowadays who identify as trans as children and go on to muddy the water with unacknowledged (or unrecognized) meta-attraction that I just don't think professed sexuality is a useful indicator anymore. Everyone knows about the typology, and everyone knows the lines to use on clinicians. Undervirilization on the other hand can't be faked prior to medical transition.

"Passing" in photos online is meaningless for most people. Unless they're in a neutral pose with no makeup and hair tied back in a plain skintight outfit (e.g. a wetsuit) showing their whole body in natural lighting then they could be using all manner of posing, angling, styling, and lighting tricks.

>>41404203
If you were developing like a normal male prior taking blockers and that made you dysphoric, then you're AGP.

>>41404024 (OP)
just remember that blanchard was a sexologist aka a pedo psychologist, rather than a biologist, doctor, any kind of scientist, neuroscientist, or anything like that

>>41404246
I take HRT to be more gay honestly

>>41404285
Blanchard was hardly the first person to observe that there are two distinct clusters of MTFs. Ovesey and Person described "primary" and "secondary" transsexuals, corresponding to AGP and HSTS, respectively. Hell, Al-Nawawi described two types of mukhannath (effeminate men) in the 13th century.

>>41404246
>no, taking hrt is done to repress being gay because you think you can escape gayness by taking chemicals
this is dogma, not experience. for youngshits maybe this is true, but every adult transitioning hussy knows the brutal truth; effeminate males do not belong.

>>41404275
youre right on the first point mostly, but you cant really fake being a natal androphile. it doesnt wash. every real androphile can tell by gut instinct with just a little exposure to you if you were or were not born one.

>"Passing" in photos online is meaningless for most people. Unless they're in a neutral pose with no makeup and hair tied back in a plain skintight outfit (e.g. a wetsuit) showing their whole body in natural lighting then they could be using all manner of posing, angling, styling, and lighting tricks.
this is a gross oversimplification in unrealistic circumstances and with unrealistic demands. hussies do not have cis womens bodies, they have bodies that are hard to distinguish from cis womens under certain circumstances. the sole exception to this are thai youngshits.

>>41404024 (OP)
just a reminder to all you retards in this thread that hsts literally means gay man. its funny and bizarre that incel trannies compete about who gets to call themselves a true gay man

>>41404285
this too. the medical community has completely abandoned the fanfiction that blanchard wrote as it does not reflect observed reality and has no scientific merit, but for some reason 4chan trannies are still obsessed with it

>>41404368
it remains a useful social dichotomy in spite of its lack of clinical relevance. so long as gay males transition well continue to see a use for it in describing our own experiences of difference.

>>41404351
I'm willing to concede that perhaps I'm just not good at reading other people's sexualities since my body count is exactly one. The "straight trans girls" clique I can at least recognize as a total LARP, though: a bunch of men acting like a stereotype of teenage girls.

I don't think I'm being unrealistic about passing. I'm attracted to male bodies, not female bodies. Very few trans guys are attractive to me, and the ones who are invariably have some sort of condition that caused natural masculinization. Take the same standard, flip it, and apply it to trans women.

>>41404368
HSTS are innately feminine because of prenatal undermasculinization. AGPs are mostly not. The knowledge that AGPs are physically normal males and not "secretly female inside" drives them crazy, because part of AGP is a hatred of being male.

>>41404342
so? they clustered them differently tho, and the project of clustering on traits has mostly been dropped for a very long time
not to mention that it's extremely prone to bias from cultural pre-conceptions
>>41404368
the medical community never really adopted it, they used other types of clinical clusters, and you could argue blanchard's work may have been intended to broaden the scope for which interventions were indicated
it just doesn't hold much for anything beyond that
blanchard is a king of science/medical larpers tho, and 4chan loves larping

>>41404418
>it remains a useful social dichotomy in spite of its lack of clinical relevance
remains? is that why you nevee hear of it outside 4chan? it literally never was useful. god you people are fucking stupid

>>41404535
absolute schizo drivel

>>41404688
Sorry about your masculinized brain and body giving you dysphoria, bro.

>>41404342
blanchard didnt observe his two tyoes though. he literally made them up and discarded any data that didnt agree with his fantasy. anyone who when interviewed gave answers that didnt alignt neatly with one of the two made up categories got simply dismissed as a liar. you people have got to be kidding there is no way you actually believe this shit unironically

>>41404707
i no longer have dysphoria since my succesfull transition. even if i did, wtf is this response? genuine subhuman shit

>>41404745
Congrats. Your autoheterosexuality is satisfied. I just hope you can be honest with anyone you date that you're only using them to further your relationship with yourself.

>>41404440
>The "straight trans girls" clique I can at least recognize as a total LARP, though: a bunch of men acting like a stereotype of teenage girls.
ye the fussy larp is kinda hilarious

this is exactly what i mean though. how many MtFs have that female typical pelvic height?

>>41404688
>remains? is that why you nevee hear of it outside 4chan?
because we gave jeeps a complex about it here early on and theyve not shut up about it since
>it literally never was useful. god you people are fucking stupid
we reinvent it quietly wherever we go in the form of cliques. all the jeeps band together in one place, and all the hussies in another, with a little crossover as tolerance permits. usually hussies dont want a flame war with jeeps because most hussies actually kinda support jeeps being their jeepy selves when theyre not being straight boys about it.

>>41404781
>how many MtFs have that female typical pelvic height?
Is that the one about where the top of the bony pelvis sits relative to the navel?

>>41404147
Wait so you're saying weird fucks like me who transmaxxed after completely failing at achieving masculinity are actually genuine hussies after all? I thought i just liked men now because my levels were so high

>>41404802
If your sexuality changed on HRT, then no it didn't. Anyone claiming that happened to them is AGP.

>>41404801
>Is that the one about where the top of the bony pelvis sits relative to the navel?
kinda? i havent observed it in technical detail i just clock it on me and other MtFs relative to cis girls i see on pinterest for inspo.

theres also width of trochanters vs iliac. in cis women the difference is typically more pronounced than it is in MtFs. in absolute terms my hips are wider than my shoulders. in proportional terms, my trochanters are not much wider than my iliac. its very much male skeletal geometry, female pattern growth with a lot of MtFs pre-hrt.

>>41404279
Yes my voice got fucked up and then I was scared my body shape would become masculine too so I... couldn't help but take the agp pinkpill

>>41404879
Then you're AGP. How sad. You could've been a man and found a hot babe instead of trying to make yourself into a poor simulacrum of one.

>>41404826
But it did?
Women don't do anything for me anymore, I like getting fucked by dudes

>>41404867
I have the damn female pelvic structure that makes me walk uncontrollably like a chick. I've put my various bony measurements into ANSUR and they're all female-typical for my height... but who cares, since I got a guy without transitioning. He thinks I'm cute.

>male skeletal geometry, female pattern growth
I'm not sure what you mean by this.

>>41404907
That's meta-attraction rearing its head. You like getting fucked by dudes because it validates your fantasy of being female.

>>41404965
based. for me its weight dependant. if i get super skinny i walk more with hip rotation, if i gain weight it all goes to my ass and i get this very hip tilt focused walk. if i hadnt gotten fat as a teen id probably have a distinctly pear body shape but getting fat in your teens is basically poverty HRT so ye.

>I'm not sure what you mean by this.
the actual geometry of my skeleton is male. the bones themselves are in a male shape, theyre just kinda visibly estrogenated. my upper body is small relative to my lower half. my bf is a hypermasc gay man and the actual bones of my legs are way wider than his. not to cisf ideal proportions, but within cisf parameters.

>>41405149
I was super skinny as a teen. Just couldn't seem to put weight on. It's gotten better in adulthood, but I still struggle to get my BMI above 22. At least I never had gyno, I guess.

>my bf is a hypermasc gay man
Now I'm confused. I thought you were MTF?

>>41404898
I don't regret anything. I wouldn't have fit as a man

>>41405218
You took blockers at 16. You never even tried to be an adult man.

>>41405230
No reason to, I didn't want to, and never wanted since. Are you angry because you chose differently?

>>41405201
makes sense, some peoples bodies just refuse to let them put on fat at that age. i found it easy to gain weight myself.

>Now I'm confused. I thought you were MTF?
i am. i transitioned like 9 years into a relationship. i say hes a gay man, hes bi with a distinct preference for men because he hates the way womens heads work. its difficult at times but you can get pretty far this way by leaning into the fujo side and combining it with your memories of being a gay male to match his vibe as needed.

>>41404068
>m an undervirilized male who would likely have transitioned had I not managed to find a boyfriend.
god. real. you're more blessed than you may realize.

>>41405291
I just think it's disingenuous to claim you wouldn't have fit as a man when you hadn't even finished growing into one.

In any case, only jeeps "need" blockers.

>>41405307
Why did you transition if you already had a good thing going on? Why risk your relationship?

>>41405315
It kinda sucks desu. Low bone mass is not fun.

>>41405341
>Why did you transition if you already had a good thing going on? Why risk your relationship?
i was never, ever going to really make it as a man. ive not got it in me to convincingly play at being masc without it destroying me inside. in my heart im more flamer than regular guy, but im heavily repressed due to growing up in a shithole. transition was always on and off the cards for me but i shelved it to do the mature thing and look after the people i cared about, but one particular incident left me so exhausted, so thoroughly done with playing into the hands of straight pseudofather men who were convinced they could make a proper man out of me that i just told him i need to do this. out of fairness i gave him the option to veto it, but i also warned him that its destroying me not doing this. unconscious homophobia is not fun to deal with.

>>41405383
>i was never, ever going to really make it as a man
It certainly sounds like you were making it as a man, if you were nine years into a relationship with a guy who's evidently good enough that you're still with him.

>ive not got it in me to convincingly play at being masc without it destroying me inside
This is at odds with many of the descriptions of HSTS that I've read, in which there's no mention of "[playing] at being masc": they simply cannot turn off being feminine. Having to "pretend to be male" and it "destroying [them] inside" is AGP talk.

>>41405456
>It certainly sounds like you were making it as a man, if you were nine years into a relationship with a guy who's evidently good enough that you're still with him.
i was mentally unsound and very much aware that i was not looking my best lol.

>This is at odds with many of the descriptions of HSTS that I've read, in which there's no mention of "[playing] at being masc": they simply cannot turn off being feminine. Having to "pretend to be male" and it "destroying [them] inside" is AGP talk.
most accounts of HSTS are luckshits and dumbasses, you very rarely see the "mask at all costs" types because they very very rarely do anything other than let themselves fall apart and lash out over it. ive been oscilating between trying to be more myself and bitterly remembering its mask or suffer for it since age 6. sorry for not meeting expectations ig.

>simply cannot turn off being feminine
define "feminine". theres a lot of things that will clock the observant to what you are that wont arouse much suspicion from straight people. how else do you think gay men got by in times before medical transition or gay acceptance?

>>41405502
>define "feminine".
I can be doing yardwork, dressed in bulky clothing that hides my frame, and I'll still look like a total fag while I'm doing it because of my unconscious body language coming across to others as feminine, driven in part by my weird skeleton.

I'm not deliberately doing it. I'm not even consciously aware that I'm doing it. I would get mocked in school by other boys for the delicate way in which I moved. At the time I didn't understand why. It wasn't something that I could "mask."

I didn't have girly interests that I felt compelled to hide. I didn't have a secret desire to wear dresses that I kept hidden.

>>41405456
>>41405502
sorry ive just realised why this makes no sense to you. pre-e i would never have described myself this way. in a sense i was actually quite happy, and i was doing just fine. to pre-e me, i really was making it, i really was doing just fine. it was only when i saw through myself in a moment of clarity that i connected a lot of things all at once, and realised i had actually not being doing very well for a long time, that what i was doing was incongruous with my nature and it was causing me problems in places that i was otherwise blind to.

you wont really understand what i mean by this unless you yourself have this experience, but know that i do not see myself as a woman, at least not in the sense that cis women are. if i would accept the label its only by analogy, and acceptance that for most estrogen really does = female. to me, this is kind of some bizarre form of roiding, where im amplifying aspects of myself for a strange kind of gain.

>>41405555
>I can be doing yardwork, dressed in bulky clothing that hides my frame, and I'll still look like a total fag while I'm doing it because of my unconscious body language coming across to others as feminine, driven in part by my weird skeleton.
yeah same, i have fag mannerisms i cant really inhibit at all. straights dont pick up on this unless they want to, though.

>I would get mocked in school by other boys for the delicate way in which I moved. At the time I didn't understand why. It wasn't something that I could "mask."
yeah same, this isnt what i mean by "mask".

>I didn't have girly interests that I felt compelled to hide.
does music not count?

>I didn't have a secret desire to wear dresses that I kept hidden.
urgh ive never gotten that

>>41405569
>sorry ive just realised why this makes no sense to you. pre-e i would never have described myself this way. in a sense i was actually quite happy, and i was doing just fine
Maybe? Until I found my man, I had good times and bad times, and the bad had begun to outweigh the good, because although I had friends I was still single, and desperately lonely because of it.

>does music not count?
I suppose I did like the Spice Girls as a preteen, but then I discovered Robbie Williams and was drawn to him and his music for... reasons.

In any case, during my Spice Girls phase I had no qualms about sharing my passion for their music with my classmates. I remember the bus ride back from a school trip and talking about having memorized the words to many of their songs with a male classmate who was equally enthusiastic about them. I don't think it would have occurred to me to hide it.

>>41404046
AGP
>Sexual fetish
early onset agp
>No

Prepubescent children do not have sexual fetishes.

>>41405628
fucking spice girls
when i was fucking 6 i asked my aunt for a copy of their album
you know what happened then? my entire family made fun of me and told me thats for girls
i got very upset about it and threw the CD back at her when she eventually got me it for christmas
thats our diff right there, twinksis. you got acceptance, i didnt.

>>41405643
AGP is autoheterosexuality.

Sexual orientation can express itself in prepubescent children as "puppy love" crushes.

Autoheterosexuality can similarly express itself as dysphoria.

>>41405649
Autogynephilia is a serious sexual disorder of heterosexual men. It leads to death in many cases, through suicide, drug overdose, and other preventable premature death. It's not something to take lightly. It's a scourge that should be forbidden again.

>>41405662
The solution is identifying it early and arresting its progress, not encouraging transition.

>>41405648
Damn. I'm sorry anon. That just fucking sucks.

>>41405685
im sure you can see how that kinda moment spirals out, anon. you dont forget stuff like that, even if you refuse its message.

>>41405662
Agp isn't even real though

>>41405307
>you can get pretty far this way by leaning into the fujo side and combining it with your memories of being a gay male to match his vibe as needed
yeah right who needs to be authentic anyways? I'm sorry for your bf!

>>41404024 (OP)
But why do some men identify as AGP then? It's a serious issue for them, they often hate themself. It's always the transbians denying AGP. + HSTS is more than real, everyone knows this dude from school:
>Quiet
>Small
>Hangs out with the girls
>Everyone thinks hes gay
>Female interests
And there is also the girl equivalent, the boyish girl, that "is one of the boys", plays rough with you, doesn't mind "boy stuff" and so on.

>>41406970
Being "small" isn't enough. You have to have some seriously fucky development going on before trooning becomes worth it if you're doing it to improve your odds of finding a partner.

A lot of AGPs will lie and claim they were always feminine, and then it's a nothingburger like they have a small Adam's apple relative to the rest of their he-hulk body.

>>41406808
anon, this is authentic. sorry you dont get it.

>>41404024 (OP)
>trans lesbian
>hsts
Neat! I'm onboard.

i read the whole thread
>>41404351
>effeminate males do not belong.
trvke but imagine conforming *after* realizing that. i tried to conform like my life depended on it before realizing it was all in vain, now idc anymore.

>>41407038
I didn't do it to find a partner though. I dramatically shrank my dating pool by trooning.
Maybe. Realistically though I've accepted my childless cat lady fate.
>4'11.5" "male"
>crazy narrow shoulders
>hips respectably proportionate by female standards
>small hands; literal child-sized feet
>zero facial bone/cartilage masculinization
>no voice drop
>exclusively attracted to women
>trooned at 35 (closer to 36 actually)
And unironically the prevailing wisdom from sexology when I was growing up was that if I trooned it's because my parents didn't try hard enough to raise me as a boy. Like their mistake was not injecting me with roids and forcing me to play football.
Sexology is dumb. Ray Blanchard is dumb. They just think everything's about sex because it's their literal jobs to be obsessed with sex.

>>41407833
Nothing except Blanchard's concept of AGP can explain my sexuality.

>>41407842
I'm not saying AGP doesn't exist. But I do think Blanchard's over-generalizing.

>>41407764
im not conforming lol, ive returned to my teenage position of using other peoples perception of me as a means of fucking with them. estrogen is just a tool for that and other things.

>>41407911
you're good then but a lot of effeminate males *do* go from self hating for being gnc to trooning out to escape that only to end up self hating for not passing at the other end of the binary

>>41408079
at the end of the day im not straight enough to be binary. men and women are heterosexual creatures, and were all just the weird shades of inbetween socially speaking that is. unless ofc youre one of the lucky few that gets cast as hypermasc/hyperfem gay.

i should get a catman hoodie.

>>41407833
>exclusively attracted to women
At least trutrans, broski. I wish you were a gay twink, your stats are literal dream husbando.

>>41408436
Yeah see that's my problem. I'm attracted to women, but it's not women who are attracted to me.
Maybe I should give up and find a chaser bf.
I'm way unhealthy off of exogenous hormones though. I'll probably get it anyway eventually but detrooning might literally give me the beetus. I was scary close before I started estrogen.