Thread 41490595

penis in female locker room:
>predator!
>disgusting!
>pervert!
>I feel raped!

vagina in male locker room:
>no way bro
>ahah nice
>looking good, dude
>do you need a spot?

Why are women so pathetic and fragile-minded?

>>41490595 (OP)
Gock is pretty powerful.

>>41490595 (OP)
A pooner cant overpower a man and penetrate him. A troon can overpower women and penetrate them.

>>41490826
my ftm bf can easily overpower me..just last night he pinned me down and fucked me

>>41490826
So much for the TERF stance that E makes troons sick and weak and kills their sexual function, and that T turns poons into roided up rage monsters.

if a bro got his vag out in the changing room, i would be very polite and not bring it up.

>>41490973
That's because men are capable of self-control.

>>41490826
women enjoy being overpowered and penetrated
it's part of their nature
lesbians still get wet when they get raped

Men and women are different omg you figured it out anon

>>41491018
>trannies will make posts like this and then wonder why women hate and fear them

>>41491037
>it's okay to characterize all troons by the statements of one troon
>but it's not okay to characterize all terfs by the actions of nicola murray

>>41491037
women hate men no matter what they do

>>41491347
trvke. trying to appease a woman is a fool's errand

>>41490973
That's the kind of solidarity the world needs

>>41491433
Incredible that women can't manage basic shit like that

>>41491364
trans women do nothing but try to appease women with their actions

>>41490611
why dont i look this way

>>41490595 (OP)
I never understood the whole bathroom thing. I've almost always used male toilets after trooning, and being in a female toilet sounds awfully uncomfortable and judgmental, whereas moids have a larger imperative to not be in there to begin with, and aren't going to care. Maybe its survivorship bias, and obviously that kind of violence does happen, but it seems wholly disproportional.

>>41491642
its a way to humiliate men and get them to be ashamed of their bodies, it was never anything to do with safety

>>41491677
hmm interesting

>>41491727
racial segregation existed to humiliate and shame blacks
sex segregation does the same thing to men - shows them they are unwanted, and paints them as disgusting predators who need to be kept away from the "good kind" of human
its all subtle programming

>>41491002
Yes, that's why men are vastly overrepresented in violent crime, especially sexual ones.

>>41490973
I would not bring it up, but if I’m being honest I would dislike it a lot and be wishing that the FTM weren’t there.

>>41493499
because (You) want to plap plap plap that hairy poon?

vagina in male locker room
>LMAO WHERE THE FUCK IS YOUR DICK???
>AHAHAH THIS NIGGA GOT A PUSSY
>NO DICK NO DICK NO DICK LOLOLOL

>>41490611
brainmelting girl bulge

>use male locker room
>nobody cares
>use female locker room
>nobody cares
Gender is a spook

>>41491738
cismale here, I've never once felt this way pissing in the mensroom, this really seems like a "you" problem

>>41493532
implying ftms don't want this lol

>>41491738
How are these things inherently dehumanising on their own? Obviously you can frame specific things and they could exist because of specific factors, but inherently I would argue against that notion

>>41493576
Exactly, I do in fact want this

>>41493857
because it sends the message that males are predators and cannot behave sexually

>>41494093
the message I take from sex segragated restrooms/showers is that people just want to have a space where they won't be oggled or hit on

if it was because men were frothing at the mouth rapists then it wouldn't make much sense to put them in close proximity with each other either

>>41494361
>where they won't be oggled or hit on
how are you this vapid
the idea is that men cannot control their sexual impulses and cannot help but make women unsafe
the problem is all this sexual repression just makes the problem worse

>>41494369
>how are you this vapid
this just isn't a big deal to me, it's not important for me to shit next to someone of the opposite sex and it's really hard to see why it would be to anyone else

>>41494391
its a huge deal to casually accuse all men of being rapists who can't control their sexual urges and just expect everyone to tolerate your absurd misandry

>>41494426
A significant portion of certain types of women (TERFs and second wave feminists) certainly seem unable to conceal their hebephilia. It's rather disgusting.

>>41494426
idk bro i definitely don't interpret sex segregated bathrooms as an accusation that i am a rapist and it seems kind of weird to

>>41494650
it literally is, the entire point is "men would put their penises in women!" if they got to see women naked
you are an enforcer of our puritan morality

>>41490611
my srs is due in one month :D

>>41491037
>ah, someone pissed and shitted in the holy water reserve and killed 29 orphans? wow... how could trannies do this??
classic /lgbt/

>>41495280
SOME men would do that, I am not one of them therefore sex segregated bathrooms are not an attack on me

>>41495962
zero men would do that
women are far more likely to rape than men are
the purpose of sex segregation is getting men to be ashamed of themselves and repress their sex drives, knowing women hate them and only value them for labor, not sex

>>41495982
Now that is a hilariously delusional post

>>41496005
no, it's true

>>41490595 (OP)
Idk. Ask crystal cafe/b

>>41496403
I fucking love Crystal Cafe. They are an oracle of trenchant wisdom.

>>41491037
How do you know who made that post?

>>41490867
I'm jelly

We should go full puritan. No one should be naked in front of another person outside their immediate family. Women should be equally ashamed of being naked around other women.
The solution is lockers in an open, common area with wide sightlines to make sure no teenagers are fucking around and stealing shit, with doored stalls around the perimeter walls where each family unit can change and shower in seclusion.
As a bonus, there will be no awkward situations where a 13 year-old boy with a single mother is forced to use the changing room alone.

>>41497702
why should women be embarrassed by being around other women? we all have the same body parts.
i understand men being concerned since one of them could decide to have sex with the butt of another, but women don't have that problem.

>>41490611
I swear I know this one but the name escapes me

>>41498048
Because shame of nudity has nothing to do with whether you've seen those body parts before. Anyone can go online and look at porn of any body type on their phones, anywhere and anytime.
The shame comes from the fact that we are clothed for the vast majority of our interactions with others in the world. The contexts in which nudity is socially acceptable are far, far outnumbered by the contexts in which nudity is socially unacceptable. And, thus, the feeling of the need to mask nudity is more present and tangible than the feeling of the freedom to be nude, leading to a shrinking of the domain of socially acceptable nudity.
It would be clearly and unambiguously inappropriate to be nude in front of your coworkers in the context of the workplace. Why would it then be appropriate to be nude in front of your coworkers in the context of a spa after working hours? Why would it be appropriate to be nude in front of your coworkers in any context?
This collapse of the domain of socially acceptable nudity eventually reaches the limit. One cannot avoid nudity around one's spouse (due to sexual norms), one cannot avoid nudity of small children around their parents. So the immediate family remain the last domain of acceptable nudity.

>>41491642
depends on where you live. as i got deeper into transition i got harassed by the men and even physically assaulted (homophobe's gay panic). when they say gender dysphoria has to negatively impact your life, it's things like people making fun of you for your name, people degrading you saying you're not man enough to use the men's room, people harassing you for complying with work's dresscode (like girl, they really make you wear that? because you're compliant with the men's dresscode), people ostracizing you from the herd (people will want to interact with you less and less because they see you as a weirdo).

homophobia is still very alive and well today. transphobia is an extension of homophobia. transphobia is when they're like, why can't you just be a fem gay man, and the answer is because it voids their safety. homophobes can't mind their own business because if you were just a fem gay man, the goal post shifts to: i don't care if you're gay, just don't be a fag about it. when literally you're just being and expressing yourself. misogyny has no room for what they deem as weak men.

the crux of the bathroom argument is they see mtf's as men (nobody cares about ftm's, sorry, not sorry). it doesn't matter how far along or through transition you are. look at how nancy mace treats sarah mcbride. to someone it's not a matter of passing or any of it. it's about control. it's about demonizing and humiliating you because they're allowed to punch down at you. it's because they feel their life is out of control. nancy mace is a whore that slept around and got sexually abused because of her own naivety (no sweety he's not really going to give you a substantial campaign contribution for fucking him) so she takes it out on people like sarah mcbride to placate her ego, as if she's still in control after everything that happened to her.

look at the government shutdown in the states. they're just now saying it out loud.

>>41498167
>(nobody cares about ftm's, sorry, not sorry)
aaaaaand that's why people view you as a dangerous monster. reexamine you entire life seriously you can do better

to follow-up:
the right is finally starting to say it out loud. why are we in a government shutdown? because the republicans want to use the budget as an opportunity to discriminate against trannies. they tell their base it's the dems fault that we're in shutdown because the dems want to give illegal aliens healthcare. that's not what it is. part of it is that republicans are trying to shoe horn in banning healthcare coverage for transgender people. they'll lie right through their teeth like oh well you'll just have to go to a hospital that only accepts private insurance to receive treatment. that's why they risk their lives flying to thailand you imbeciles. no hospital solely accepts private insurance as they're pretty much all subsidized by the government to some extend. meaning, if you without funds from facilities for offering transgender healthcare providers will stop offering the service all together for fear of being shutdown by the government. i can understand not wanting health insurance to cover the tranny's boob job because you feel like regular women have to pay for their own out of pocket, but tranny's aren't regular. the reason we pay for the tranny's ba is the same reason we'd pay for a cancer patient's ba post double masectomy.

so the right is going to use trannies as a scape goat and point the finger at them like oh there's no money for tranny healthcare. there is. they would just rather spend it on argentina than the trannies because for all the rhetoric they tout it means nothing. if they were really america first, we wouldn't be spending 40billion dollars on argentina. that's not even talking about the ballroom or trump's frivalous lawsuits to try to pay himself more money as if his crypto scheme didn't reel 'em in.

trump is awful president, but obviously he must be a genius that so many of base worship him. he's a lousy president and pretty terrible human being, but you can't say the man isn't brilliant.

>>41498210
>you're a bad person because my struggles aren't the same
oh i'm sorry. did you not want to compete with the men? because they let ftm's compete with the men. you're societal problems are not the same as an mtf. you're societal problems are learning to deal with male loneliness, solemnity, and stoicism. instead you act like a little bitch because you can't man the fuck up.

>>41490595 (OP)
I get that you’re a fucking idiot, op.

But imagine for a moment that sex for women and sex for men being different and this leads in a different opinion and feeling about the act. Also not all women and men are the same so people will have different ways of seeing things.

Maybe asking you to imagine another person’s experience is a little too much to expect of an internet troll.

I know this thread sucks and op will just make another one but I’m saying it anyway. Fuck you.

>>41498311
>why can't you consider how /i/ feel.
>you're such a narcissist
takes one to know one.

>>41490595 (OP)
it's harder to rape with a vagina duh
a stick is a weapon, a hole is a target
men even rape each other

>>41498332
You got hands, don't you?

>>41498167
>look at how nancy mace treats sarah mcbride.
Illuminating.

>>41498344
it's not like men don't have hands...
i'm not saying it's impossible to rape without a penis
it's just harder

>>41498393
Unlike shit like firearms that can accidentally/negligently discharge, sexual assault takes deliberate action.
Anyone and everyone can commit sexual assault against anyone else.
The factor we should be concerned about is who is actually committing sexual assault, not "who might commit sexual assault" (which is everyone, potentially).

>>41490595 (OP)

penis in female locker room
>"ew gross! you shouldnt be in here"

vagina in male locker room
>immediately raped.

What incredible privlage!

>>41491738

Being called male is not degrading you're just a tranny.

>>41498868
"I'll be raped if I go in the men's restroom/locker room!" is an AGP fantasy weaponized to demand access to female spaces.

>>41498874

Difference between being in a room full of 20 naked men all looking at you, and one guy walking into a bathroom full of 3-7 women

>>41498895
>one guy walking into a bathroom full of 3-7 women
which was not the hill to die upon it turns out

>>41498137
why is nudity so bad? we are all humans.
and i've literally changed in front of my female coworkers. like i said it's not a problem since we have the same type of body.
of course you should be nude around your spuose! that's how you have sex. and there's no need to be embarrassed when you're in an intimate relationship even if you're just changing or whatever.

>>41498941
so you think i should legally be harassed by men because you believe my right to safety was voided by my own behaviors.

>>41498961
>it's not a problem since we have the same type of body.
What makes you say that? The answer is (probably) culture-specific norms.
Not every culture is going to consider it okay be naked in front of others just because you are the same sex.

>>41498989
you can be safe while being naked around both men and women

>>41490611
looks more like Sock

>>41498276
If you're able to move out of the states but youre staying you are a fool.

>>41490595 (OP)
cuz all foids do is foid out lol

Not reading this thread. Locker rooms are a dumb idea a weird from conception. Parents just...let their kids get naked around half of the entire school? Fucking weird. Only freaks want to protect these spaces

>>41490595 (OP)
>looking good, dude
>do you need a spot?

>>41490826
technically misogyny

>>41490973
I would raise my eyebrows but be otherwise unconcerned

>>41503077
I mean, it's not like I shove it in people's faces, but I gotta change too, you know? I usually try to angle it away from any other guys who in there with me.

>>41502713
Nah. Most dudes are chill, at least at my gym.

>>41502310
its nice to have a place to change and store clothing
the sex segregation and the freaking out about nudity is the weird part

>>41498276
>why are we in a government shutdown?
Because Dems keep voting against a CR.

>>41503654
maybe for good reason?

>>41503957
Yes.
Because healthcare for illegal immigration is more important than being able to provide EBT cards.
Either way, I don't care.

>>41504092
I have a feeling the actual budgetary reasons are not anything to do with healthcare for illegal immigrants

>>41504106
That is literally the sticking point for Democrats.

>>41504475
I really doubt they want to provide healthcare for ILLEGAL immigrants.

>>41490595 (OP)
>Why are women so pathetic and fragile-minded
One theory that explains why women are naturally more prone to what you're describing is because women are weaker and have child-baring equipment. So they need to be more aware of their surroundings and more fearful because they might injure themselves and their potential offspring. While women aren't pregnant all the time, nature is typically blunt and unforgiving. Which explains racism (though, intellectually, racism is useful for avoiding risks.)

>>41497702
Nah, sex segregated bathrooms seem to be working fine for roughly 99.999% of humanity including MOST trannies.

>>41498276
>because the republicans want to use the budget as an opportunity to discriminate against trannies
Trannies aren't even in the top 50 issues democrats have with the budget, how do you dweebs constantly imagine you are the center of attention in EVERY issue?

>>41505165
You're lying. You're fucking lying like a typical Republicunt would do. I fucking hate you. I hope you get raped in the changing rooms and cum on the floor and are forced to clean it up by the staff working there and it's super embarrassing and awkward.

>>41498344
One does not get sexual gratification for themselves by sticking their hands in someone else.

One does get sexual gratification from sticking their penis in someone else.

The greatest lie feminism ever invented out of nothing was that rape is primarily about power and not sexual gratification. That's fucking retarded, 99.99% of rapists are low value men who can't get pussy unless they slip a mickey in a girls drink or grab her from behind at 3AM and knock her out.

>>41505223
most "rape" is women trying to get revenge on men who they are mad at for unrelated reasons by claiming he had sex with her and she didn't approve of it

>>41505206
>You're fucking lying like a typical Republicunt would do
I'm not a republican bro. Sex segregated bathrooms/changing rooms are literally fine. No one fucking cares, just get changed and move on with your day.

>>41505223
I think the greatest con feminism has pulled is the ongoing demand for gender quotas. Women have been outperforming men academically for a long time, yet all of the attention is still on grad schemes, scholarships, and special programs for women, not men. Given that men outperform women in industry despite all of the advantages given to women suggests that perhaps men and women aren't equal after all, and systemic sexism is not the reason for women's lesser success in industry than men.

>>41505244
>the person who demands to be around nude women unconsensually also thinks rape victims are all lying
woooah I can't believe that!

>>41505257
If you've got a pussy and you look like a woman then use the female one, otherwise use the male one. It's really quite simple.

>>41505257
>Sex segregated bathrooms/changing rooms are literally fine
clearly not if they cause "trans" people enough distress that it makes them suicidal to not be able to use the other room they aren't supposed to

>>41505281
society would be better off if we ignored the hysterical whims of females entirely

>>41505298
Hypomasculine males make the best females

>>41504092
migger spotted
like all federal-sponsored welfare programs you cannot get medicaid without an ssn (itin doesnt count, they do verify with ssa)
and you cant get an ssn without being a citizen
qed illegals are not getting free healthcare

>>41505309
males never come to look female due to hormones or surgery

>>41505298
Yeah…
I used to be a feminist, but after being exposed to their ways, I've become a misogynist. They're just so full of hypocrisy, double standards, pettiness, and backstabbing. There's a reason most philosophers had something negative to say about women. Also, they ruined video games.

>>41505311
Hell, not even green card holders can get full Medicaid right away.

>>41505324
terf cope

>>41493532
>HOLY SHIT
>WE GOT OURSELVES A FEMALE
IT'S PAYNE
PLAP 'IM

>>41505328
misogyny makes it sound irrational
hating women is just a response to them hating men and trying to impose cruel poor social conditions on men

>>41505288
I just don't buy at all that pissing in the mens room is a major factor pushing trannies to attempt suicide.

Even if this WAS a major factor, the only argument from the "eliminate sex segregated bathrooms" side of the argument has been to hallucinate that rape never happens.

They are working fine and I've heard nothing convincing to change my mind on that.

>>41505378
its not just that, its being made a second class citizen as a male and constantly told you are a rapist and a predator and that if you question that you are an "incel" that makes men go insane
being subjugated while being told women are the real victims AS you get victimized

>>41505388
I've never once felt like a "second class citizen" because I showered around a bunch of dudes rather than a bunch of chicks. You are alienated for "questioning" this because it's strange to feel that way at all.

>>41505399
you are showering with other dudes because men are seen as rapists
sex segregation is JUST AS DEGRADING as racial segregation ever was

>>41505344
I just hate double standards in general. Men got the vote because they get drafted to fight and die in wars. While women get the vote without have to be drafted.

>>41505378
You can tell it's not a real fear because cis women piss in the men's room all the time when the line for the women's room is too long.

Really it's two things, which only occur in AGPs:

1. They have a desperate need to be validated as a woman in every area of life. Using the male *anything* makes them feel invalidated. Male razors? Male body wash? They won't use it.

2. They have a fantasy of being sexually assaulted by a man because they think it would make them feel like women. Them talking about their fear of it is them fantasizing about it.

>>41505378
The other side has never proven that sex segregation actually reduces rape/sexual assault/sexual harassment.
Go ahead, look into it. There's no strong evidence. It's entirely vibes based.
The best way to reduce conflict in private spaces like this is to ensure they are either used very frequently (always a bystander to intervene or get help) or constantly monitored by staff/security.

>>41505406
women lead nothing but privileged lives while claiming to be the victims and treating men as rapists without a shred of humanity or individuality

>>41505418
most rape doesn't happen in bathrooms or locker rooms, it was never about that, it was about demonizing males and treating them as predators so they learn to accept the matriarchy treating them like garbage

>>41505405
>men are seen as rapists
Some men, and again, it's very easy to understand that I am not one of them because I am not the type of male to rape someone in the first place.

>sex segregation is JUST AS DEGRADING as racial segregation ever was
Actually it's not even close to the separate facilities for whites and blacks.

>>41505428
Believe it or not, sex-segregated facilities are a blessing, because men get to avoid women engaging in asinine yapping and blocking the sinks.

>>41505467
the purpose is to devalue the social worth of men and paint them as harmful monsters who need to be contained artificially

>Some men
all men are subject to sex segregation

>>41505418
>The other side has never proven that sex segregation actually reduces rape/sexual assault/sexual harassment.
You want to change the norm that has worked for thousands of years, you have to provide a compelling argument to change things. It is sufficient for people to say they don't want to change it for literally any reason at all.

I do think it's primarily about rape but it's also about much smaller sexual harassment that would become a daily occurrence for women like dudes staring at their tits in the locker room. Perhaps it wouldn't escalate to rape, perhaps it would, it definitely would happen all the time though and you haven't provide a good reason they should deal with it.

You all keep reminding me I'll never have a harem of cis men to gang bang my ass. Why even live

>>41505482
>all men are subject to sex segregation
So what you expect society to vet people before allowing them in locker rooms? Figure out who is a creep regardless of sex and ban them from the unisex locker rooms?

No that's fuckin retarded. It's easy enough to accept that some men are going to be retarded and then just set up separate showers.

>>41505487
that's the thing
if we normalized mixed sex nudity it would be a lot less weird to be naked and see opposite sex bodies and it would REDUCE the rape rate by taking away forced sexual repression

>>41505487
We have provided a compelling argument: trans and gender-nonconforming people.
It's so compelling even grade schools in my country are switching to gender-neutral washrooms, together with safer designs (get this, we don't have to build structures the same way we did 200 years ago!)
You are welcome to not find such arguments personally compelling. But things are changing gradually.

>>41505505
>if we normalized mixed sex nudity it would be a lot less weird to be naked and see opposite sex bodies and it would REDUCE the rape rate by taking away forced sexual repression
Maybe like three generations down the line after the "normalization" happened. However it is a retarded assertion to suggest that tits can be meaningfully desexualized for anyone over the age of 13.

So what you are suggesting is that (at least) 2-3 generations of women just put up with being harassed, for what reason exactly? Why is this a preferred world we should fight for (if it is even possible to develop, which I doubt)?

>>41505532
if people are being harassed then you can make a criminal complaint
i think you would be surprised how most people don't care about nudity as much as the hysteria would have you believe

>>41505532
>>41505538
If an MTF can use the male locker room with tits and a vagina, then cis women can too, therefore sex-segregated facilities are unnecessary.

>>41505517
>We have provided a compelling argument: trans and gender-nonconforming people.
That's not really compelling at all. Worst case scenario a third unisex shower can be added but that doesn't require eliminating sex segregated showers for everyone else.

>>41505553
Also, I'm NTA advocating for mixed sex nudity.
I've clearly state my preference >>41497702 for NO shared nudity whatsoever.
Instead of sex segregation, go completely segregation. We aren't some third world country, we can afford that shit over the span of a few decades of building retrofits.

>>41505547
well thats the other point
if trans people can use the opposite sex room, and the world doesn't explode, maybe the whole system was unnecessary

and sex segregation has all these harmful baked in heteronormative assumptions that men are only attracted to women and vice versa and that people would somehow never sexually harass or molest the same sex, only men do that to women...

>>41505553
naked
communal
mixed sex
showers

>>41505538
>if people are being harassed then you can make a criminal complaint
What criminal complaint could be filed from staring at someone's tits for 30 minutes against their will? How would it even be prosecuted? What evidence could be provided? Why do we want to create this additional problem when the current system is working fine to prevent it?

>>41505575
>for 30 minutes
start filming them
call 911
leave the room
criminal actions can happen anywhere and why would your tits be out for 30 min unless you are giving a show and are enjoying the attention
>staring against your will
illegal eye movements
we are SO close to 1984

>>41505581
>call 911
So what you are suggesting is that a situation which is currently handled with no law enforcement involvement whatsoever should now be handled with dozens of police, lawyers, and a judge?

It seems like just sticking people in different showers is a lot easier and has no cost on society.

>>41505598
>we just handle it by demonizing men as a class and increasing the construction costs of buildings to accommodate mass misandry

>>41505598
>It seems like just sticking people in different showers is a lot easier and has no cost on society.
Yes, a single shower for each and every person, with no sharing or public nudity.

>>41505626
that would be nutrageously expensive and silly for facilities used by dozens of people at a time

>>41505650
Okay. Feminists and women in general can pay for it, since they're the ones who aren't okay with communal mixed-sex facilities.

>>41505654
everyone should be buck ass naked in one big room with nary a stall wall or divider in sight
sex segregation is 100x weirder than mixed sex nudity ever could be
and normalizes this belief that women's bodies are exotic and holy

>>41505621
>increasing the construction costs of buildings
Yes this is an investment society is clearly extremely willing to make because the alternative is significantly more costly. A single case working through the courts would cost millions of dollars across every human involved. There would be substantially more than a single case as a result of eliminating sex segregated bathrooms.

Trannies don't want to shower with dudes? That's fine. Add a gender neutral option for people who don't give a fuck about how they shower with. That doesn't require eliminating male and female only spaces.

>>41505650
>fairness is expensive!
>much cheaper to be sexist
Remember, nothing can ever become better. You will pay your taxes to support more corporate welfare and shut up.

>>41505663
im against sexist sex segregation
it would be cheaper to have unisex communal facilities

But like for real. How would men react to seeing a bro with a vag in the changing room?

>>41495508
kill yourself enuch

>>41506609
mad as hell

>>41490595 (OP)
because of history of discrimination n shits. Doesn't matter how much better men get, at least boomers who saw that shit when it was worse.

end all sex segregation now

>>41507305
disgusted, more than mad

>>41510533
mad as helllllll

end all sexual dimorphism now

>>41509023
Yes!
Let me watch the women shower whilst I stand there with a hard on

>>41512826
Its not like women can't scream and cry and use pepper spray if you are creepy, but like erections are natural and we should be freaking out about them less. This weird women worship culture where male sexuality is treated as a constant impending threat to female goddesses is so fucking old fashioned.