Thread 41588152

Alexis Black is a nightmare for the trans politics
There needs to be mandatory minimum 2 years HRT before you can be even considered to use the women's restroom or change legal identification. Then there needs to be a panel of 5-10 passing trannies who quiz you on womanhood. You will be expected to have a good voice and you will be evaluated on your capability of conforming to the female role. If you score high enough, you gain a special card. Only then can you socially and legally transition.

nice angle
i wonder if she tops

>>41588152 (OP)
mogs most cis men

>>41588152 (OP)
>There needs to be mandatory minimum
that's the moment the trans ideology can't work, if you decide to put some criterias to evaluate who's the "real woman", you lose the battle because there will always be someone telling you that the ultimate criteria is to be an actual biological female

>>41588152 (OP)
na, I think I'll just do whatever I want.

>>41588152 (OP)
>had a full beard and a hairy chest pre transition
>does not even attempt to pass
>girlmodes with facial hair
>does not voice train
>picks a pornstar name
this is an optics nuke

non-dysphoric AGP transbians strike again

>>41588279
>convicted for domestic assault
Certified optics nuke

>>41588152 (OP)
being a woman is supposedly a social construct thing it has supposedly has nothing to do with biology and biological females, it means that even lebron james can say he's a woman while keeping his beard, it has nothing to do with looking like a female, that's the bed you made, now lie on it

>>41588226
trans women who've been on estrogen for 2+ years and have their testosterone suppressed, as well as being post op, are biolgically female

>>41588318
lmao
you're a retard

>>41588310
i thought she'd look like she'd kick my ass. maybe she should just kick everyone's ass who opposes her

>>41588310
yeah these people need to be completely cut off from the rest of us

for fucks sake

>>41588333
>biolgically female
being a female or a male is only about your chromosomes, nothing else, don't change the biological definition to suit your delusion, you have the "gender" nonsense for that, don't touch the objective reality that is the biology

>>41588344
am I wrong though? gender is a social construct and sex is your biological trait

>>41588390
chromosome definition is just stupid. there are intersex people who otherwise are completely male/female but have opposing chromosomes. also that would mean there are more than 2 sexes since people can have like xxy chromosomes or whatever

but we've had this conversation like a million times no reason to believe it would be any different this time around

>>41588400
social construct doesn't mean you can just declare it. being a president is a freaking social construct but i'm not going to become a president if i just say so

>>41588424
>chromosome definition is just stupid.
and "I claim I'm this therefore I'm this" is smart? please
>intersex people
which you are not, don't lump those tiny defects and exceptions to make up the rules, if you are proven to be a male or a female (not intersex), the debate is over for you

>>41588444
that's literally what gender is though, it's literally "a woman is someone who identifies as a woman", if you claim you are a woman, everyone will be forced to pretend you are a woman or else they're transphobic, that's the rules, I'm not making those rules

>>41588446
I claim womenhood because I would feel dishonest if I said I was a man. I'm the kind of person that shows my opponent what civilization I play before the game starts.

>>41588492
>I claim womenhood
a claim without proof is void, that's why biology exist, listen, I know you didn't want to be born a male, and guess what? a lot of people aren't happy with the body they're born with, some short people can't be tall, some browns wished they were white, etc... but you can't change reality, and you can't force people to pretend reality isn't important, it is, you have the right to play pretend if that makes you feel better, but don't force others to believe in santa claus, it's not happening

>>41588152 (OP)
>Then there needs to be a panel of 5-10 passing trannies who quiz you on womanhood.
It's funny that I'm a passoid and I'd probably fail this test.
Like what's the quiz about? What besides being female or at least reasonably female adjacent defines womanhood?

>>41588513
i mean yu kinda can change ur sex/gender. idk if u heard

>>41588446
If you try to create a universal rule (i.e. All men have XY chromosomes, all women have XX chromosomes) yet there is an exception to your rule, then the rule is not true. If you said "All carrots are orange" and one carrot is not orange, then your description is not true. You cannot arbitrarily disqualify intersex people.
If you do so, your theory is no longer scientific, because it is unfalsifiable. I cannot say "All carrots are orange" and then disqualify carrots which are not orange. But this argument for you is not about science or reality, when people argue about XX or XY, they really talk about XX or XY in metaphysical essence of male or female that is absolute and true in every case. Yet this is not how it works in reality, as we know there is chromosomal variation in humans.

>>41588152 (OP)
>"transwomen are women bigot! they're as much of a woman as cis women!!"
>"btw, only transwomen will have this quiz to prove they're real women"
that's dumb

>>41588513
I'm sorry you feel that way, but you have no control over what I feel or think. I really don't feel like I'm forcing anything, it all feels very natural to me and if I acted differently to how I am now I know that I would not be on my best game to deal with life.
If it means anything I did struggle to make this decision because I wanted to be extra sure.

>>41588542
>All men have XY chromosomes, all women have XX chromosome
I never said that, I said for the vast majority of cases, XY makes you an actual male, and XX makes you an actual female
>You cannot arbitrarily disqualify intersex people.
I never said that, I said you can debate on whether someone can feel as a woman or a male if they're intersex, but that's the only exception, for the rest (which is the 98% of the whole population that aren't intersex), the rule are simple enough, you are a male or a female
>Yet this is not how it works in reality
don't talk about reality when your logic is "if I claim I'm this then I'm magically this", biology isn't perfect but is way more accurate than "just trust me broooo I shaved my beard and I put long hair therefore I'm a real woman!"

>>41588567
>you have no control over what I feel or think.
and you have no control over what I feel or think, if people feel the reality is the most important thing in the world, you can't force them to play pretend with you, that's my point, the trans community has this tendancy to force people into their delusion or else they're "nazis", "transphobic" or are doing some emotional blackmail by saying "you're doing a genocide by acknowleding reality", if you were a reasonable group and just said "look, I feel better if I play pretend, and I won't force you to go along with it", people would stop hating you and we wouldn't have fucking Trump as president again

>>41588446
>>41588542
Hi! I'm a tiny defect/exception and I can speak to this a little.
The first problem is the law rarely bothers to recognize DSDs at all. This means the rule actually does need to be complete or it leads to absurd conclusions at least sometimes, and those absurd conclusions put real people in danger.
The other problem is while you can sometimes conclusively prove that someone is intersex, you can't really conclusively prove the opposite. People have way too much faith in genetic tests.
>>41588572
The reality is nobody cares. If you look and sound female or at least acceptably female adjacent people will treat you like a woman for nearly all purposes. Just don't try lo donate eggs or something stupid like that.

Idk how some people do it…I’m 30 months into HRT, have had FFS, consistently gendered female in public
but am still visibly trans. I always opt for gender neutral restroom if available, and only use women’s if there isn’t one.

I haven’t had an issue (yet) but the fact you can easily tell I’m trans makes me anxious to use women’s restrooms. This girl is like 3 months on HRT and already using a women’s locker room.

>>41588623
>The reality is nobody cares.
saying that nobody care about reality is a really dangerous rhetoric, you really need to read 1984, people who forces you to accept lies are dangerous people
>"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - 1984, George Orwell
>If you look and sound female or at least acceptably female adjacent people will treat you like a woman for nearly all purposes.
So Michael Jackson has officially become a white person because his skin got white and he did some surgeries to have those european traits? are you fucking serious?

>>41588572
>for the vast majority of cases, XY makes you an actual male, and XX makes you an actual female
so you're saying that the chromosomes do not define sex but for the most case determine it. So then, what is the thing chromosomes are usually determining? What is sex?
>biology isn't perfect
i have an actual degree in biology, you're talking out of your ass. Sex is a mosaic determined by a variety of factors. it is not binary in the way you're describing in any organism

>>41588623
>it leads to absurd conclusions
and the "I claim I'm a woman therefore I'm a real woman" isn't what you would call "absurd conclusions"?

>>41588653
>i have an actual degree in biology
and my father works are microsoft
>What is sex?
What is a woman?
>so you're saying that the chromosomes do not define sex but for the most case determine it.
yes? at 98% of the cases it can tell you if you're a male or a female, that's pretty accurate if you ask me
>Sex is a mosaic determined by a variety of factors. it is not binary in the way you're describing in any organism
like I said, if you're not a defect and you're part of those 98% of people who are either male or female, the debate is over, biology has determined your sex and you can't pretend it didn't exist, that's ridiculous

>>41588660
nobody is claiming that's how it works, most of us were shitting on the bitch this thread is about. The argument is whether or not people who display almost entirely female secondary sex characteristics are more female than male, and in my opinion the answer is yes, especially post-operative

>>41588692
>female secondary sex characteristics
those aren't objective characteristics, there's some females that have beard, short hair, small breasts... what you're describing is the stereotypical woman, with your definition, every tomboy would be a "man", that's why I'm not dealing with this, I only base my criteria on objective facts, like your primary sex characteristics, if you are born with a functional penis you know who you are

>>41588594
I understand what you mean, but you need to understand that the crap that comes out of the trans community is due to repression. I'm optimistic in that things will change on this front someday. Why would any self respecting trans person not advocate for them self in a openly hostile world, same as anyone else.

>>41588688
Are you a fucking retard? I got a bachelors degree in biology and it was easy, you could do it too and it would probably make you smarter.
>What is a woman?
Someone perceived as female by others
>yes? at 98% of the cases it can tell you if you're a male or a female, that's pretty accurate if you ask me
so what is it telling you? it tells you, the structure of their genitals, their secondary sex characteristics? both things transsexuals alter?
>if you're not a defect and you're part of those 98% of people who are either male or female
yes, the argument is about whether or not you can alter the things that determine sex.

>>41588624
We had something like that near me too and I'm half convinced it's a psyop. Restrooms are harder to avoid but changing and showering in the locker rooms is an entirely avoidable part of the gym experience, and it's, ahem, ballsy as hell to try that 3 months in.
>t. not a fan of getting naked in front of strangers
>>41588649
Do you think it's the lack of a uterus people are objecting to here? You think they can smell the Y chromosome? Or do you think it's the male morphotype / if she's displayed it the presence of a penis?

>>41588710
>perceived
that's not reality, people can be fooled, they don't represent what's right or wrong, some people feel the earth is flat, do we have to believe them?
> the argument is about whether or not you can alter the things that determine sex.
it doesn't though, if you are not an intersex, and you are a XY male, you can't change your chromosomes to become a female, you can't change that objective reality, it is what it is, you can yell at the clouds that you were born a male, I can understand your frustration, but I will never accept someone ignoring reality and forcing people to ignore reality as well

>>41588715
>You think they can smell the Y chromosome?
that's not the point, people being fooled doesn't change reality, it's like saying magic really exist because there's some talented magiciens fooling people into seeing things that are supposedly bending the laws of physics

>>41588728
>that's not reality
if their material experience does not differ from that of a woman, what differentiates them materially from women?
You are mixing up "female" and "woman"
You're about to say "guh guh they're the same thing" but I'm talking about the real world.
This is under a post about someone using a lockerroom.
Do you think that a post-operative transsexual should be required to get naked in the men's lockerroom? do you think men would be comfortable with this?
>inb4 "Passing isn't real"

>>41588708
10 years ago no one gave a fuck about trans people because they weren't as loud and obnoxious as nowdays, people see trans people as "autoritarians fucks that force you to lie to appease their fragile feelings", you guys need to get your shit together and realize that you won't get love from someone if you force that someone to play pretend, it will never work

>>41588424
>chromosome definition is just stupid
It's the only consistent way to define male and female

>there are intersex people who otherwise are completely male/female but have opposing chromosomes
Then they are not male or female. They are intersex people playing dress up.

>that would mean there are more than 2 sexes
Of course, anyone who pretends intersex conditions don't exist are brainlets.

Sex is a bimodal distribution. Two large clusters around male and female with intersex conditions in the middle.

>>41588796
can there be male women, and female men?

>>41588760
>the real world.
the real world is reality, not what people "percieve", facts don't care about your feelings, human feelings aren't reality, that's why science exist, back then we felt the earth was on the center of the universe, back then we felt the earth was flat, then science showed us that what we "percieved" was wrong and we should listen to objective realities instead of our flawed feelings, what you're describing is religion, people who doesn't want to listen to facts but rather impossible shit are religious people, which is ironic because you hate religious fucks, but you act exactly like them, those people believe jesus transformed water into wine, and you believe you can change your sex
>You are mixing up "female" and "woman"
you are doing everything in your power to look like a female, if there was a machine that transform all your chromosomes into XX and changes you into a female, you would run into that remote to get that shit, you don't want to be a woman, you want to be a female, and you fool people by wearing a costume, but a costume will never be the reality, like blackface, a white guy doesn't become black because he put some paint into his face, that's dumb, you are dumb

>>41588802
no, because a woman is an adult human female

>>41588802
Eh I would say "yes sex and gender are different" but I think that was always just a linguistic game. These days trannies are arguing they are literally female so that distinction was always bullshit.

So yeah in other words: no

There can be a male that dresses up like women or a female that dresses up like men. They can even take it further past clothing and modify some of their secondary sexual characteristics with exogenous hormones and cosmetic surgery, but these are ultimately just more complex forms of dress up.

Definitely would she/her a nigga if they ask though.

>>41588805
>that's why science exist
Idek why i'm talking to this fucking layman. Please try community college

>>41588769
>"autoritarians fucks that force you to lie to appease their fragile feelings"
idk if most people actually think that, I think when most people see a trans person having a rough time they what to do something to stop that person from feeling pain by what ever means that person knows, it usually misguided because they never tried to understand in the first place. So people resort to transphobia because they think that person need tough love when in reality that person needs something individualistic.

>>41588832
I accept your concession.

>>41588834
you don't care about people's feelings, what about the guy being sad he's being forced to ignore reality to appease trans people? what about that guy? you're all like "you need to kneel to appease our feelings" but at no point you're telling to yourself "this guy made me happy by kneeling, but did I make him sad?", you never ask yourself that question because you don't care about the mental labor of others, then why should we care about your own mental labor then?

>>41588830
>these are ultimately just more complex forms of dress up.
>Definitely would she/her a nigga if they ask though.
why? you know it's a lie but you still want to participate with it? I don't get it

>>41588835
yes anonymous 4chan dot org chud.. yes! i'm a man! you've convinced me! I will now inject testosterone every week and get a phalloplasty, thank you for showing me the way!

>>41588834
>tough love
>transphobia
I think lying to you to make you happy is infantilizing, if I do that I will see you as a 4 years old who cries if I don't tell them santa claus doesn't exist, I mean you're an adult no? why can't you eat those truth nuke? you aren't special, everyone eat reality, you and me, if we have to lie to you to appease you, then we'll have to lie to everyone because everyone is insecure about something, I don't want to live in this world of lies

>>41588853
>you know it's a lie but you still want to participate with it?
I am not blind to the truth, I just don't care all that much about it. I think we all run on complex lies to get through the day.

>>41588890
>I think we all run on complex lies to get through the day.
you have a point, I also read the myth of sisyphus :(

>>41588890
>I think we all run on complex lies to get through the day.
Especially those who somehow become obsessed with the concept of "truth", they are running on the fundamental lie that truth is even wholly knowable in the first place.

>>41588890
>>41588908
So we should reject facts and truth and be like those antivaxxers who doesn't want to listen to those vaccine studies because "I know my body better than those silly papers I tell'ya!"

>>41588890
>I just don't care all that much about it.
I care, misinformation, manipulation and propaganda is dangerous to society, that's how we got nazis in power in the first place

>>41588424
No for fucks sake, it's not stupid because le intersex people exist... it's stupid because chromosomes are things that noone will ever see, they're completely irrelevant besides the effects they >might< have on other things. Chromosomes are just one step away from metaphysical arguments. By classical definition, if you have the hormones and the surgery, you are now the other sex because you look like, or more or less like it, and partially function like it. There's nothing more to it

>>41588152 (OP)
Stop writing sissy fantasies this is a blue board

>>41588931
>if you have the hormones and the surgery, you are now the other sex because you look like, or more or less like it, and partially function like it. There's nothing more to it
that's bullshit, a plane isn't a real bird because it can fly, being a woman is more than what's in the exterior, what you're describing is just a costume, nothing else

>>41588845
>>41588873
I care about the people in my life, thank you. I once had a friend say something similar, I had cared for him and tried to help him but he would always push me away, I know what your dude feels like. I think you're describing a very normal human experience.

>>41588950
>I think you're describing a very normal human experience.
yet you still want to force people to lie, there's something deeply inhuman with the woke mafia

>>41588931
>chromosomes are things that noone will ever see
> if you have the hormones
oh now we can see testosterone with our own eyes? that's a news

>>41588955
shit tier shit post, do better

>>41588333
>lose job
>cant afford hrt for a month
>now all your ID sex markers are invalid and go to prison for fraud

>>41588950
>I had cared for him and tried to help him
what do you mean by "help him"? what did you want him to change?

>>41588963
I can see beards, which are a notable effect of testosterone in most people given enough exposure.

>>41588979
what you don't understand is that "people being fooled" is not equal to reality, it's even immoral to lie to someone and fool that person, it's a fraud, it's like me wearing a doctor's coat and wanders in the hospital, I'm not a real doctor, but people can be fooled by that, please everyone, can we stop normalizing fooling people? or if you really want to look like the stereotypical female, just say to those people you aren't a real one

>>41588979
It would be like saying that gold-plated jewelry is exactly the same as real gold just because they look similar on the outside. That's dumb. A costume will never be the real thing.

>>41588990
Cope and seethe.
I don't owe you a full medical history so you can figure out which pronouns to use.

>>41588572
There are actual, really existing, phenotypically otherwise undifferentiated females who are not XX. You cannot base a biological definition off of a "vast majority" of cases, it must be true ALWAYS, otherwise the definition is useless. Why do intersex people get to decide and break the rules? What do you define as intersex? This is a strange double standard.
The reality is, there is no metaphysical male or female. Sex is bimodal, represented by a series of primary and secondary sexual characteristics with two appearances. Here is a definition that works all of the time. A male is not *just* XY, but XY, penis, male pattern body hair, spermatogenesis, prostate, and so on. It is all these traits in combination that makes a male. A trans female under HRT is neither male nor female under this bimodal definition: XY, breasts, neovagina, female pattern body hair, prostate, so on.
You are using XY and XX in the same way a Christian says "female soul" or "male soul". It's completely ludicrous.

>>41589013
if you want to disrespect people by lying to them it's your problem, but don't expect to not be hated for that

>>41589014
>"female soul" or "male soul"
that's literally your thing lol, "I feel like I'm a woman" or "I feel like I'm a man", that's literally the motto of the trans "I feel like this, therefore i'm this", you can't be more metaphysical than that, your ideology is exactly the same as religion, the christians believe Jesus can transform water into wine, you believe you can transform from male to female because you fooled some people's flawed perceptions, it's the antithesis of science and reality

>>41588653
>determine it
OP is making a telelogical argument along the lines of "God made you male". The argument is telelogical because OP thinks there is an objective male and female, and intersex people are not complete individuals, but rather failures to reach the "perfect form" of either male or female. As in, he would say, "oh if you didn't have so-and-so condition, you would be male". It's not based in reality, it's gender metaphysics.

>>41589014
>You cannot base a biological definition off of a "vast majority" of cases, it must be true ALWAYS, otherwise the definition is useless.
there's males, females (those represent 97.3% of the population), and intersex people (those represent 2.7% of the population)

my point is this, biology has solved the problem for 97.3% of those people, for the remaining 2.7% we can have a debate on whether they can indentify themselves as whatever they want, but for the vast majority of the case, trans people aren't intersex, they are on those normal cases of male/female, the ones that are already solved by biology, and those people pretend that it's not solved and they can do whatever they want because a group of intersex people they aren't part of exist, that's bullshit

>>41589027
This is an argument boomerhons made 40 years ago as a way to convince cis people to let them live. It's a flawed model that is not relevant to todays concerns, there is no male or female soul. Engage with the argument instead of going on an irrelevant tangent.

>>41589014
In my experience in real life what they mean is some combination is "it's OK if you're passing" and "yes you should conform one way or another so we can keep pretending intersex people don't exist."
Their actual male and female categories are morphotypes. Which is objectively more reasonable than stamping their feet and demanding everyone's karyotype but still kind of messed up.

>>41589050
>there is no male or female soul.
I never said there is, a female can be a tomboy, play football, have short hair, she's still a female, your ideology is actually one we used to have in the 50's "there's no way my daughter will wear pants, women are supposed to wear dresses and like pink!", the day you'll understand that you can like makeup and still consider yourself as a male (because guess what, men can like everything that's the beauty and the freedom that comes with it), you'll get in a better place, don't define man and woman as a set of sterotypical traits fucking please

>>41589042
Tell me why intersex people get to determine which group they belong to, but endosex people don't without going into a telelogical explanation about biology "solving" the problem.
Then, you can also answer the charge of the fact that medical transition causes the appearance of opposite sex traits on your body, thus removing you from the phenotypical male or female, making you closer to intersex people.

>>41589071
>the appearance
that's the thing, your exterior doesn't mean anything, perception is not and will never be reality (if you believe perception is the solver of everything then you're having a telelogical explaination about reality), or if you believe it is, then we have to normalize blackface and pretend we can change race because we put a black paint into our skin, do you really want to go that path?

>>41589071
>removing you from the phenotypical male or female
You can't change your chromosomes, so you haven't removed anything. It's like saying that if you cut off a man's two arms, he becomes more like a dolphin. Really?

>>41589066
No one is saying that stereotypes determine your gender, all it requires is self-identification with either gender. A tomboy still identifies as a girl, she is on the masculine end of the spectrum of woman.
From a functional perspective, calling a fully transitioned trans woman a male is not going to be useful. She has a vagina, breasts, female body fat distribution, female body hair distribution, and so on. What is the point of calling her a male if she does not match the definition of male that we have? There is no outward phenotypical expression of her maleness, you can only vaguely gesture at some underlying male essence that has not been removed "XY" chromosomes, something invisible and unknowable without genetic tests.

>>41589095
>all it requires is self-identification with either gender.
that's the fucking problem, it's a void claim, you need proofs, and your "proofs" are based on stereotypes of what a man or a woman is supposed to be or act like, it's not objective and it's insulting to females that don't conform to those sterotypes (like tomboys)

>>41589092
There are XY females born with a uterus, vagina, and so on. Are you saying they are not female? They were born as such.

>>41589095
>something invisible and unknowable without genetic tests.
you have a functional dick, fucking please, your dick is not "invisible", that alone is enough to know if you're a functional male or female

>>41589105
>the intersex argument again
you aren't one, stop talking on their behalf please, you are a functional male so it's solved for you

>>41589106
OT-DSD would like a word with you

>>41589095
>a vagina
a wound will never be a vagina though

>>41589095
>She has a vagina, breasts, female body fat distribution, female body hair distribution, and so on
Trannies will say this as if a nigga ain't never seen them before. They get TWO of these things max.

>>41589084
Perception is reality. There is no underlying essence of anything, there is only what we see and can observe.
>blackface
There are genetic Africans who pass as white, irregardless of this they self-ID as black and participate in the black community because race is a shared social experience centered on the family. Allowing people to become black would be bad and therefore we shouldn't allow it. Sex is not like this.

>>41589117
why do you keep talking about rarities, you're speaking as if all trans people have OT-DSD and therefore it would be impossible to differentiate them with actual females, you know it's not true, that vast majority of trans women are born with a normal penis, and they tend to keep it, they even say that "women can have penis, that doesn't make them less as a woman", looooool, I will never accept a woman with a penis that's ridiculous

>>41589106
Then post-SRS trans women are women

>>41589110
>NOOOO YOU JUST MADE A VALID POINT AND I HAVE NO RESPONSE!!!
You cannot define sex purely by chromosomes.

>>41589141
>You cannot define sex purely by chromosomes.
You literally can, and it is defined by chromosomes.

>>41589105
>Are you saying they are not female?
Yes, they are intersex, not female.

>>41589128
>Perception is reality.
It's not, that's a religious statement. For example, Galileo observed that Earth rotates around the Sun and supported this with telescope discoveries, which challenged the established beliefs of his time. He was tried by the Church and forced to recant. Because the Church decided that "Perception is reality"

reality doesn't care about any of this, it's a set of objective facts that are not linked to what we feel about it, Einstein felt that "god doesn't play dice" that's why he dismissed the "quantum physics", then objective observations showed how much he was a retard and admitted he was wrong, that's how it should be, you can feel things, but if facts contradicts your feelings you have no choice but to listen to the reality

>>41589146
So Swyer syndrome females are males then.

>>41589135
a wound will never be a vagina, you're delusional

>>41588152 (OP)
>There needs to be mandatory

Gate keeping I see? How is this different from GOP implementing these draconian government laws?

>>41589131
I should've added an NTA or something I guess. I don't mean that. I'm just saying intersex comes in lots of forms.
OT-DSD has been known to present with normal or nearly normal male genitalia and a female morphotype. That's not remotely the only possible outcome and I'm not saying it's common and I'm DEFINITELY not saying it accounts for all trans women. It obviously does not.
But like read a case report or 20.

>>41589169
like I said, I'm ok to debate on rare exceptions like those, but for those people who were born with the default male/female body (like 98% of the people) it's already solved you can't really argue against your own biological reality, it is what it is

>>41589162
Are you blind or just retarded? They are intersex, not female or male.

>>41589128
>Allowing people to become black would be bad and therefore we shouldn't allow it.
why? if we can allow men to become women, why can't white people identify as black and say the n-word?

>>41589157
Our theories of the universe changed when we got new tools to observe it. The principle that ended the era of geocentrism was mathematics, but those mathematics were not in-and-of themself, but a way to solve the problem of our observations. Planets were not moving according to our prediction, so we changed our theory. The impetus was observation. The reality we observed was inconsistent, so we changed our model for reality. If those observations were never made and we could not disprove geocentrism otherwise, then it would be our real functional reality.
>Set of objective facts
We can never definitively prove anything.

>>41588390
You can be male and have XX chromosomes. You can be XY and not be able to allow testosterone to affect you if you tried. 1 in 500 males even has XXY with a male body and their bodies cancel out the Y chromosome because of X inactivation which is only present in the female sex. If they found a way to change chromomal dna you would just move the goalposts to bone structure and forcing all to wait until 18 to transition.

>>41589188
>We can never definitively prove anything.
excuse me? what kind of nonsense is this shit

>>41589193
>1 in 500 males even has XXY
yes, defects exists, and they are rare, as that ratio suggests, that doesn't change the fact that for the remaining vast majority of people that are born normal male and female, it's settled and solved

I don't really care what gender Alexis Black, I'm glad we have Americans who are working out and taking care of their physical fitness in this country with massive obesity epidemic

>>41589195
There is a reason gravity is a still formally a theory. We can't prove it, we just test it over and over again. It only takes one incident where it doesnt work to our model for it to be disproven. But we can never prove it.

>>41589203
All mice are white. EXCEPT for these mice, which are brown.
Self-defeating statement. Either all mice are white or they aren't. No exceptions for intersex.

>>41589208
and what's your point? the theory can explain absolutely everything in the reality we live in, therefore it's a solid theory and is more reliable than just "well, I will claim I'm a woman, and I won't provide any evidence for that, just trust me bro", I'd rather take a theory that is like 98% accurate rather than the 0% accurate theory of "trust me bro I'm this thing!"

>>41588152 (OP)
White trans girls are more beautiful and feminine than actual black girls

>>41589220
>White trans girls are more beautiful and feminine than actual black girls

black trans girls are more beautiful than black girls.

>>41588310
>drug trafficking and domestic abuse
Motherfucker I am friend with a felon who went to jail for armed robbery.

>>41589217
that's ignoring the very thing that made us humans in the first place, defects exist because our biology can't stop evolving, that's the theory of evolution, to evolve you need to change our DNA and have some failures with it, if you say "biology is void because there are exceptions to the rule" you're ignoring the very reality of living being evolution

biology will never say "let's pretend exceptions don't exist" they will say "exceptions exist and it's normal it's mendatory for evolution but they can be considered defects because they represent a tiny minority"

humans are supposed to have 2 arms, sure there's some people who are born with 1, they are defects and don't change the definition of what a human is supposed to look like

>>41589167
It's a compromise compared to the GOP plan desu
Under the right circumstances offering some show of commitment before changing ID markers could be a useful compromise to offer a wary public. I just don't think it'll help in our current moment.
>>41589175
This is kind of why I brought up testing though >>41588623
I believe OT-DSD can be definitively diagnosed (medical imaging to find all gonads; biopsy to confirm ovary/testis/ovotestis nature of all of them) but other conditions can't necessarily. It isn't really possible to formalize an exception for intersex people, ESPECIALLY those born when it was more common to fix it and pretend it never happened.
That's my practical concern.

>>41589219
>Whats your point? The theory can explain absolutely everything therefore its a solid theory
If you look at a woman, she looks like a woman, she sounds like a woman, she says shes a woman, then she's a woman. That's functional and it's reality. Trying to grasp at some underlying essence is pointless. Say shes XY, whether that's Swyer or because she's trans, it's irrelevant. It's like having an adoptive parent and saying "WELL TECHNICALLY FROM A BIOLOGICAL STANDPOINT, YOU'RE NOT HIS MOTHER!" and then the little boy cries and his mother cries, and no one benefits. We socially use terms that are functional, rather than "objectively" true. She's his mother because shes acts like his mother. A trans woman is a woman when she fits our criteria for what a woman is. That's it. These work in everyday life

>>41589234
>supposed to look like
There is no "supposed". That's telelogical and ascribing a design to a bunch of cells and organs. Again, no exceptions, either your rule works always or it's irrelevant.

>>41589247
>If you look at a woman, she looks like a woman, she sounds like a woman, she says shes a woman, then she's a woman.
by "like a woman" you mean "like a female"? like I said, wearing a costume doesn't make you that costume, it's just fooling people, people being fooled doesn't change reality, we are supposed to live in a society that is built on facts and evidence, not feelings

>>41589238
>It's a compromise compared to the GOP plan desu

GOP takes any weakness, even minor, and expands it to the 11th degree. They are literally banning all gender marker changes thought the country atm.

>Under the right circumstances offering some show of commitment before changing ID markers could be a useful compromise to offer a wary public. I just don't think it'll help in our current moment.

I am watching the video right now, she literally said in order to get the surgery she would need to remove every hair from her body and that would take a year.

I would treat her as a women if I saw her. I think most cis women would as well.

I don't like this whole "demonize x because y" shit. It's gate keeping and controlling. I'm cis bisexual dude myself, I had someone who transitioned only 3 years ago because they grew up in a transphobic environment. Again people grew up in environments where they could not transition as kids and now it's illegal in some states.

>>41589247
>That's functional and it's reality.
Eh it's not really functional, it's just convenient for most social situations. It avoids confrontation, that's really about it.

If a nigga that got they dick chopped off looks me in the eye and tells me they a female then tries to date me they finna catch these hands because I want a female

>>41589258
>Again, no exceptions, either your rule works always or it's irrelevant.
it's impossible, everything has exceptions, that's the very nature of biology, living beings always evolve and their DNA always change, there's defects everywhere, you are asking biology to represent a reality that is 100% perfect, yet the exact reality we live in is far from being 100% perfect, again, you are denying reality by asking something that is impossible, the exceptions can't change the rule

and again, it's ironic to ask for biology to be 100% accurate when your whole idea of gender is "who cares about evidence bro just say you're a woman and you are officialy one!"

>>41589260
Like it or not we live in a society based on feelings, not facts. We're people, not machines computing data.
>wearing a costume doesn't make you that costume
Gender is a social performance. Again, there is no underlying gender essence. Participating in the performance makes you a member of the group

>>41589271
>Like it or not we live in a society based on feelings, not facts.
absolutely not, what are you smoking? everything that is on society is based on science, you eat that pill that'll cure your flu because they made extensive studies about its effectiveness, we define everything based on a set of objective criterias, we define light thanks to some advanced theories, and you want me to define a man and a woman based on feelings? why would that exact definition would have the privilege to not be defined with something objective? if your motto is to ignore facts because it stops hurting your feelings, you are not much different that the religious fuck that says homosexuality is a sin because "my 2000 year old book says so!"

>>41589270
Biology doesn't have exceptions man. It's not this overarching system you think it is.
>biology represent reality that is 100% perfect
This is what you are asking of biology. You want there to be discrete male and female, with nothing in between, so you can be prescriptive about gender presentation and identity. The reality is there is nothing like that, biology isn't a perfect binary and there isn't a way to cleanly make a definition for female that excludes all cis women and excludes all trans women.

>>41589263
>They are literally banning all gender marker changes thought the country atm
Oh yeah I know. I was born in one hostile state and I live in another. I never could fully pass as male, definitely couldn't have in 2025, and REALLY can't now. Having mismatched ID caused weird problems for me. I'm kind of terrified.
>I am watching the video right now, she literally said in order to get the surgery she would need to remove every hair from her body and that would take a year.
Yeah not only that but good surgeons' wait lists are years long. That or they don't take insurance, or at least definitely don't take your insurance. And even if you can get past that they don't operate where you live, so you gotta be able to live in a hotel/airbnb in some expensive city for like a month to prepare/recover. And you need someone/someones to take care of you that whole time, and will realistically be unable to work for 2-3 months. That's a lot for nearly everyone.
I think requiring SRS is too far.

>>41589286
>This is what you are asking of biology.
I'm not, I'm acknowleding that exceptions and defects exist, my point is that you're always using that exception to put yourself in there, no man, you aren't intersex, you are a normal biological male because you have a 98% likelihood to be like that, so stop debating about your own condition, you aren't intersex so for your case it's already settled

>>41589281
We're talking about definining man and woman in social terms, so in the realm of feelings. When I go out and makes friends, I don't make a rational calculation about the value they bring in my life based on scientific principle. No, I determine that based on how I feel about them. That's the underlying structure for society, not cold rationalism. No one gives a fuck about biology irl when making a determination on whether someone is male or female
>you are not much different that the religious fuck that says homosexuality is a sin because "my 2000 year old book says so!"
The difference is allowing people to self-ID how they want is good and homophobia is bad.

>>41589247
Also, if "it looks like a duck" was truly uncontroversially "functional" at societal scale, things like "transwomen in sports" or "transwomen in bathrooms" would be a complete non-starter politically, but they are extremely heated topics at the moment.

>>41589234
Imagine being pro evolution but anti trans lol. You know, males soon won't even have a Y chromosome. There's a reason it's mostly "junk" code, but yeah keep telling yourself it's the only right way to exist like multitudes of other species don't change their gender at their own will.

>>41589304
>No one gives a fuck about biology irl
more than 95% of people are superstraight, that means they only want to fuck the opposite sex, you're vastly overestimating the people that are bisexuals and men who would have no problem sucking your dick, you're delusional son
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Percentage-of-each-group-sexuality-gender-indicating-a-willingness-to-consider-dating_fig1_325490626

>>41589294
>I'm kind of terrified.

Organize and vote. I've done door knocking for candidates, organized Verizon pickets, been to Palestine solitary protests.

>I think requiring SRS is too far.

used to be the standard requirement and still is in some states and countries. some us states are undoing even that so SRS won't even matter, not even allowing them the option or not. I want self-id, just apply for change whenever. I feel like this is an ongoing issue and Congress should step in and make it federal.

>>41589298
>I'm acknowleding that exceptions and defects exist
No you aren't. You are dismissing them and ignoring them. You say special rules for intersex people because they don't fit your gender metaphysics.
>defects
Telelogical Bible-thumping Christian going off on God's plan for each body. Intersex people are not defective.
>you are a normal biological male
Do normal biological males have breasts?

>>41589312
>trans is a thing because in 300 millions years everything will have changed
how about talking about the reality of our own present time? thank you

>>41589319
>more than 95% of people are superstraight,

in theory, we know these "polls" don't tell the entire truth sometimes.

>>41589304
>No one gives a fuck about biology irl when making a determination on whether someone is male or female
Biology is kind of the only thing people think about when making that determination.

At least when it really matters.

I definitely don't look to biology when I'm having a 30 second interaction with the barista on my way to work. This much is true.

Your vibes based social theory certainly works for meaningless shallow interaction.

>>41589319
Reading comprehension. I said no one gives a fuck about biology when making a determination of whether someone is male or female. No one looks at your penis or vagina, and certainly not your chromosomes to make that distinction.

>>41589335
>Telelogical Bible-thumping Christian going off on God's plan for each body. Intersex people are not defective.
the fuck you talk about, that's literally your motto "I was born in the wrong body, my body is a defect because it doesn't look like I wished it was", you reject your own body and say it's the wrong one but you are getting emotional when we talk about defects, THE NERVE

>>41589319
My real world experience is men answering surveys are full of shit.
I get hit on an uncomfortable amount and explaining what I am doesn't really make it stop.

>>41589354
>anecdotes
level 0 of evidence

>>41589354
There is this trans women who is a powerlifter / bodybuilder / former marine, who transitioned and after she did she got a flood of dick picks on her inbox from men begging to have sex with her. and to assume they are all gay, bisexual queer whatever is ridicious.

In prisons, a trans women is a women and they are property in the patriarchal system.

>>41589351
>I said no one gives a fuck about biology when making a determination of whether someone is male or female.
and they are wrong, basically you're telling me "well the majority of people are wrong, therefore they are right", reality isn't based on democracy, if one guy tells the truth and the rest were spewing nonsense, turns out the one who got the reality right was the guy who didn't listen to others like a sheep

>>41589352
The difference is this is you, an endosex person, calling other people defective because they don't match your Platonic models of Adam and Eve.
That's quite different from gender dysphoria.

>>41589364
>to assume they are all gay, bisexual queer whatever is ridicious.
why not? maybe there's more LGB than what we initially thought, would be a good thing desu, the more the merrier

>>41589379
>That's quite different from gender dysphoria.
that's literally gender dysphoria, you consider your own body to be a defect and that's why you want to "fix" it with hormones and surgeries

>>41589369
>Hehe, stupid fucking kid. That's not your mother, YOURE ADOPTED!
Genuinely no one gaf, we live in a social reality based on perception, not your world of ideal forms

>>41589331
>some us states
My birth state did (and does not recognize intersex as any kind of exception) and my state of residence has threatened it.
>Organize and vote.
I'm trying and I've also approached the politicians both individually and in public testimony. I'm fucking exhausted.
>>41589335
>Intersex people are not defective.
Thank you. I've been going with their language because it's easier than fighting it but thank you.

>>41589394
>Genuinely no one gaf
who are you to speak on the behalf of everyone retard? that's literally why there's a fight between trans people and the rest of the population, because you assume people are as delusional as you and live their live based on feelings, it can't be further from the truth, if you can't handle the truth that's your fucking problem, but don't force everyone else to ignore the truth

>>41589400
my hometown elected both an openly gay mayor and now trans mayor. progress

>I'm trying and I've also approached the politicians both individually and in public testimony. I'm fucking exhausted.

One thing that really helped me was when I meet a Palestinian young man who was from the West Bank, went to university in the west bank, was a victim of a hate crime shooting in Vermont, and it felt so amazing to take a photo with him.

>>41589385
You have no clue on what gender dysphoria is, because you've never experienced it. Don't cissplain GD to me.
No one tells me my body is defective, I've felt this way since I was 6 years old, institutionalized at 12 because puberty exacerbated symptoms of GD and made life unbearable and I tried to kill myself. Only when I started transitioning when I was 20 did my symptoms start to alleviate. That's GD, not a failure to reach a Platonic form, a lifelong medical condition that brings nothing but pain and suffering. I hate you people so much, just let me live my life.

>>41589418
>No one tells me my body is defective
your brain tells you your body is defective, you hate the fact you were born as a male, you consider this as a defect, if it wasn't a defect to you, you wouldn't be sad about your original body and you wouldn't do anything to fix that, are you retarded or something?

>>41589428
Reading comprehension!!! I said no one tells me that, as in it's not something like someone else told me my body was defective.

>>41589418
>I hate you people so much, just let me live my life.
who the fuck is not letting you to live your life? how about you let us live our life without having to pretend you are something you are not

is this the new rapehon freak I'm supposed to care about
what did it even do this time?

>>41589435
>I said no one tells me that
I never said someone told you that, you're strawmaning, my point was that you seemed quite emotional to the "defect" word even though you spend your whole life considering your own body to be a defect, you know better than anyone else what a defect body is

>>41589436
I don't gaf what you or anyone else calls me. All I want is to maintain the right to medically transition to alleviate GD. That right is currently under attack and its strengthened by ppl like you with your gender prescriptivism

>>41589455
>All I want is to maintain the right to medically transition to alleviate GD.
you won't get shit if you don't fight against the crazy troons on twitter saying that people should be shot for saying that they are 2 genders (rip Charlie Kirk), you guys need to remove those people and make it seem your group is reasonable enough, because guess what, if your group is seen as an autoritarian one, no one will defend you if something bad happen to you

>>41589436
NTA but I can't pass as male and on top of it I'm tiny even by female standards yet they want to switch my ID back and force me into men's spaces.
>>41589460
Not actually possible sadly. I can speak for myself but I get shouted down by the Internet horde of crazy assholes.

>>41589417
>a Palestinian young man
those guys are ismalists and want to behead the LGBT people (every islamic countries give the death penalty to people that are suspected to be LGBT) because the quran said so, why are you so stupid? chicken for KFC am I right?

>>41589472
>I get shouted down by the Internet horde of crazy assholes.
now try to ask yourself why those crazies represent the majority of your group
>>41589472
>I can't pass as male and on top of it I'm tiny even by female standards yet they want to switch my ID back and force me into men's spaces.
that's the problem, women don't want males lurking in their changing rooms, that's disgusting

>>41589460
I'm trying to be sensible, which is why I oppose hons like Alexis Black. No trans woman should think of going into the women's restroom without SRS and 4yr+ HRT at minimum. There are just so many transbians and AGPs who distort and co-opt transsexualism. It should have never have moved beyond treating GD

>>41589473
>those guys are ismalists and want to behead the LGBT people

Really I was taking a photo with him, he spoke perfect English, was American, seemed secular very well educated. Did he behead me for being bisexual? There is a huge secular population of Palestinians you know. I'm sick of the stereotypes.

There was a jewish women with her kids there as well with a shirt on saying "not in my name, I am jewish"

>>41588226
>the ultimate criteria is to be an actual biological female
all you have to do is ask them what their retarded autistic definition is useful for past reproduction anon

>>41589484
>I'm trying to be sensible, which is why I oppose hons like Alexis Black.
being sensible on 4chan is like being sensible on a KKK meeting, it's not the place to be sensible, the normies only see troons through reddit and twitter, and everyone I go to those place I'm scared of them, they always want the worst for people who just want to question them, they are unhinged

>>41589479
I don't actually use shared changing rooms but also I'd extremely turn heads if I ever entered a men's locker room.
I am, for reasons opaque to you, pretty unambiguously morphologically female.
Nobody represents my group really.
>>41589484
>restroom
>SRS
Anyone looking in the stall to check is the creep. Just saying.
Waving ones girldick around in the women's locker room is of course another matter.

>>41588390
So you have an even easier to bypass definition that isn't useful for anything. Great thinking, autist

>>41589511
nothing is more easier than the "I claim I a woman therefore I a woman" circular definition, which is the gender definition according to the woke mob

>>41589507
>I don't actually use shared changing rooms
the problem with having no criteria in terms of being trans is that every male can just say "I'm a woman!" and go to the woman's changing rooms, just like that, ez mode

>>41588446
>t-the DEBATE is OVER OVER OVER YOU LOST I WON I WON I WON

>>41588513
Why are you comparing an easy to spot concept to nanometre-sized particles in our cells that have practically no impact post-beginning of infant development (sometimes not even that). Don't complain about others being stupid when your whole argument is christfagging with the fact that you learned a quasi-intellectualist language style, then sperging out at people when they actuallly try to argue properly with you

>>41589546
>that have practically no impact post-beginning of infant development
me when I lie, it's those chromosomes that makes the male or female body, if you can't see the differences between a male and a female body you need to put some glasses or something, the fuck?

>>41589546
>it's small therefore it's irrelevant
like atoms? those are way smaller than chromosomes

>>41588704
>females that have beard, short hair, small breasts
>small breasts=no breasts
mhm, nice strawman once again
Yes, it works both ways, if you're a jacked nigga who's 5'9 with a beard and a bass voice, you lose the priviledges of calling yourself "a woman" regardless of whether you have a pussy or a dick.
>>41588688
>the debate is over
why are you still arguing like a 3 year old sperg refusing to admit he's wrong?
>98% of the cases it can tell you if you're a male or a female, that's pretty accurate if you ask me
>98%
so trannies are an exception to it?

>>41589565
>so trannies are an exception to it?
trannies aren't all intersex, the fuck are you talking about?

>>41589525
I'm OK with compromise actually. The problem is nobody's offering it >>41589400
In an ideal world we wouldn't need laws for this. Someone 3 months on hormones would realize maybe they should avoid changing and showering at the gym if at all possible. I don't say that to be mean or to invalidate their gender identity but you gotta know people are uncomfortable. Read the room is all reasonable people are asking.
>>41589554
My body is non-normative (my chromosomes did not have the expected effect on my development)
Chromosomes beget hormones which poke receptors which cause changes.

>>41589554
>le MALE and le FEMALE are LE DIFFERENT SPECIES ACTUALLY WAAA
autism
>>41589564
If there was a small atom sized singular thing that existed inbetween of millions if not billions of atoms every once in a while and didn't do shit, it would be stupid to define anything by it, true?

>>41589565
>if you're a jacked nigga who's 5'9 with a beard and a bass voice, you lose the priviledges of calling yourself "a woman" regardless of whether you have a pussy or a dick.
Says who? being a woman is a social construct, so if she says she's a woman you have the oblgation to go along with it, if you decide to set some criterias to gatekeep what is an actual trans woman then what's next? someone else will gatekeep harder than you and you will be stuck

>>41589574
>Someone 3 months on hormones would realize maybe they should avoid changing and showering at the gym if at all possible.
that's not how life works, we have laws because a lot of people would do crazy shit if there weren't some restrictions to prevent them to do crazy shit

>>41589577
>didn't do shit,
the sex chromosomes literally makes you a male or a female, the fuck do you mean it doesn't do shit, the whole motto of being trans is literally "I'm depressed because I'm not the other sex and it's the fault of my chromosomes", you can't pretend they don't matter and at the same time not being a female makes you sad as fuck, bait or retardation, choose one

>>41589570
You're talking about "le defects" which trannies, via definition of a tranny are, just like a homosexual is an exception to love being feelings between a man and a woman. Your "chromosomes" definition is autistic and retarded, and nobody would actually find it useful in real life contexts when push comes to shove. Crying about "waa trannies not intersex waa" doesn't change the retardation of your words

>>41589584
Ok so how do we avoid ruining my life to stop a handful of socially clueless hons from making the news? Or do we not care about that?

>>41589600
I never said exceptions are all defects, have some reading comprehension or something? Ginger people aren't defects, being a ginger doesn't negativally impact their life, being a trans is because those people are depressed and need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on surgeries to feel a bit better

>>41589578
Are you fucking retarded? No one in this thread advocates or even asks for this definition? Do you want to have a debate or did you want to just piss me off
>>41589591
> literally makes you a male or a female
no they literally dont
also>le MALE and le FEMALE are LE DIFFERENT SPECIES ACTUALLY WAAA
> "I'm depressed because I'm not the other sex and it's the fault of my chromosomes"
who says that anon, you made it up to fit your retarded argument

>>41589611
>No one in this thread advocates or even asks for this definition?
then define what is a woman

>>41589608
>hundreds of thousands of dollars on surgeries
srs costs 30k max, or do you mean the surgeries trannies are forced to get to pass after being pushed on a 10year waitlist to wait until 30?

>>41589611
>who says that anon
it's literally the definition of gender dysphoria, you are depressed because you are born with "the wrong body" meaning that you wished you were born as a female but you are not, all your despair comes from the fact your chromosomes were XY (male body) and not XX (female body)

>>41589615
>srs costs 30k max
that's a lot of money, and you think that's enough to pass as a real female? some trans are really dysphoric about their penis and want something that look like a vagina, that's why they do surgeries

>>41589614
Having external features of a reproductionary female, which make you be perceived as a role inhabited by them in the society you're currently inhabiting
aka "secondary sexual characteristics + passing" but you'd get butthurt over this so I'm writing this out for you

>>41589640
>a role
what role? what can men can do that women cannot?

>>41589640
>perceived
first of all, what people percieve and feel doesn't always align with facts and reality, and saying "I pass so I'm good", but some people will be fooled by your costume, and some people are not, now what? you want to make a % threshold on how many people got fooled to be officially a woman? come on bro that's ridiculous

>>41589630
srs is penis to vagina surgery anon
>all your despair comes from the fact your chromosomes were XY (male body) and not XX (female body)
actually passoids dgaf (past not being able to get pregnant, which can be solvable once the cis care-tranny care lag solves in case of womb transplants), it's largely people with a heavy degree of unwanted secondary sexual characteristics that are deeply dysphoric, thats why early detection and treatment would solve like 90% of tranny problems

>>41589652
>passoids dgaf
a lot of people don't want to date trans people, they actually want the actual opposite sex and have biological children with them, saying this as it's not a big deal is kinda delusional >>41589319

>>41589652
>thats why early detection and treatment would solve like 90% of tranny problems
This

>>41589649
>facts and reality
le facts and reality wah wah
>fooled
autism
>but some people will be fooled by your costume, and some people are not
That's called "semipassing" and usually means you either look like an extremely dysgenic woman, or a very pretty sissy. You can easily check that by looking in the mirror, which you should've done before going outside.
>you want to make a % threshold on how many people got fooled to be officially a woman?
At some point they get "not fooled" the same amount that a cis woman would get accidently called "he", which is dishonest to frame as "not getting fooled"
>costume
features of your body are a costume now?

>>41589652
>secondary sexual characteristics
of a female if you start as a male right? then being a woman (gender) has something to do with biology right? since secondary sexual characteristics is a biological term

>>41589665
>features of your body are a costume now?
well yeah, if you put black paint to your skin you can easily pass as a black person, yet people will take offence to that and call it blackface, dunno why it isn't the same as a male that puts the female costume

>>41589652
>early detection and treatment would solve like 90% of tranny problems
kids can't have tatoos but you're ok for them to eat some pills with side effect so that their body change for the rest of their life? what if the kid was wrong about that decision and regret that choice because you know... a kid is usually a little retard that doesn't know what they know, because they're kids?

>>41589662
>they actually want the actual opposite sex
1. Why do you have the vocabulary of an esl
>have biological children with them
can you not read? I wrote about it
>>41589319
This is from 2019, where for most normies an "FTM" was a tomboy with short hair and an "MTF" was a sissy. This study didn't show any reference pictures or descriptions to the survey taker, which defeats the purpose of you bringing it up here.

>>41588915
You already have, Anon. You're sitting here arguing that literal men are literal women. You're so far down that particular rabbit hole that you no longer know which way is 'up'. Is one step further really so difficult since you're already delusional and trying to pass your mental illness off as normal? You can't get much more gone than that.

>>41589689
>You're sitting here arguing that literal men are literal women.
I think you're talking to the wrong person, I don't believe trans women are women lol

>>41589668
>woman (gender) has something to do with biology right?
Yes anon, just not chromosomes, you're finally getting it. Everything in your body is biological.
>>41589674
>black paint
that is something more akin to "clothing" than to a "feature of your body". A feature, to most people that aren't autistic, would be something you can't take off without at least somewhat invasive treatments

>>41589686
>can you not read? I wrote about it
about your retarded hypothetical?
>"You'll see in 1000 years, we'll be able to put males pregnant"
you have no idea if that's possible and you won't be there to see it retard

>>41589071
You don't feed delusional people by buying into their fantasies and allowing them to expect you to respond. The proper response to delusional people is to smack them upside the head and tell them to grow up. Life isn't fair, it doesn't go the way you want it to and its not going to change just because you want something.

If you were born a man, you are a man, and you're going to stay a man. If you were born a woman, you are a woman, and you're going to stay a woman. You can crossdress, get HRT and lie to people if you want - lying is not a crime, being a gigantic delusional asshole is not a crime. But it should be.

>>41589686
>This is from 2019, where for most normies an "FTM" was a tomboy with short hair and an "MTF" was a sissy.
people knew what trans meant, 2019 was peak wokism, the fuck are you talking about?

>>41589700
>Yes anon
I thought gender was a social construct and had nothing to do with biology, hard to follow anon, your definition always changes when it suits you, that's the problem with having definition based on subjective feelings btw
>>41589700
>A feature, to most people that aren't autistic, would be something you can't take off without at least somewhat invasive treatments
Michael Jackson bleached his skin to be fully white, good luck to revert that to black lol

>>41589706
>Life isn't fair, it doesn't go the way you want it to and its not going to change just because you want something.
this

>>41589701
>>"You'll see in 1000 years, we'll be able to put males pregnant"
can you make one argument without retarded sperging or strawmanning? Womb transplants are already a thing for cis women, with not much complications and healthy babies. Practically all (past piv srs) transition-related surgeries had their beginning in intersex men/women or reconstruction surgeries for accidents. It is not a heavy leap to say, that similar can (and most likely will) happen with womb transplants 5-10 years in the future.
>people knew what trans meant, 2019 was peak wokism
If you consider the entire society to be on Tumblr, possibly? That wasn't the case though.
Even to this day, when you say "MTF" people will expect some burly sissy, not a random woman or anorexic twink (several times more likely to encounter than the sissy in both cases)

>>41589728
>to be a real woman I have to be pregnant!
what about females that are infertile, does that make them less of a woman?

>>41589718
>and had nothing to do with biology
where have i said that you retard
>hard to follow anon, your definition always changes when it suits you, that's the problem with having definition based on subjective feelings btw
well if you're a nigger that not only is unable to read, but also ignores what he reads, it's easy to arrive at that conclusion
>Michael Jackson
Michael Jackson had albinism and his skin was "bleaching" itself anyway, bad argument

>>41589728
>when you say "MTF" people will expect some burly sissy
what's the difference? there's some sissies that look a lot like women and some MTF that look like those hons

>>41589733
They are upset about not getting pregnant, and are the recipient of procedures that can make them such (in vitro, womb transplants etc) so there must be something about it, doesn't it anon?

>>41589737
>Michael Jackson had albinism and his skin was "bleaching" itself anyway, bad argument
if you weren't a retard, you would've understood that I was using the MJ example to show that you can bleach your skin to have your skin white and you can't revert back, so it falls into the category of irreversible changes the trans people are doing, so again, what's the difference between blackface and womanface?

>>41589747
>They are upset about not getting pregnant
but they don't say that it makes them less of a woman, doesn't it anon?

>>41589742
>sissies that look a lot like women
they take estrogen (making them not sissies) or are intersex (then they are some weird third thing)
>MTF that look like those hons
Okay? My original definition still doesn't call them women anon. Also
>(several times more likely to encounter than the sissy in both cases)

>>41589754
>they don't say that it makes them less of a woman
They do say that, it's more popular in "less woke" countries, but they do absolutely say that. Not being able to get pregnant did make you not a "real woman" back then as well.

>>41589756
>they take estrogen (making them not sissies)
oh now being a woman is being someone who takes estrogen? but the sissy still wants himself to call a man, and you don't want to grant him his identity? that's a bit transphobic if you ask me

>>41588152 (OP)
Give an inch theyll take a mile.
Psyop post.
Ignore.
Blue wave 26 and 28
Woke is back retard

>>41589763
>in "less woke" countries, but they do absolutely say that.
you mean the goat fucker countries? that'll be your example to use to define a woman?

>>41589749
>you can bleach your skin to have your skin white and you can't revert back
And what you don't get about my comment, is that it wouldn't be "irreversible" if he didn't have vitiligo* (switched up the words, vitiligo its the word) that bleaches your skin naturally. Also
>irreversible
I hadn't claimed that. You really seem to be struggling with your ability to read but alas i think you're trying to get me angry. No point arguing with a retard.

>>41589756
>My original definition still doesn't call them women anon.
that's transphobic, who are you to delegitimize someone's own identity? you sound like a TERF

>>41589781
>>irreversible
>I hadn't claimed that.
>>41589700
>that is something more akin to "clothing" than to a "feature of your body". A feature, to most people that aren't autistic, would be something you can't take off without at least somewhat invasive treatments
you said that to be legit it has to be something you can't take it off easily, bleaching your skin makes your skin white without any chance to turn it black again, you won't call that "something you can't take off without at least somewhat invasive treatments"? are you retarded or something?

>>41589771
> goat fucker countries?
eastern europe, Asia, from what i know some parts of south america, you want more?
>>41589765
>now being a woman is being someone who takes estrogen?
My original definition said that retard - you need estrogen in the first place to get the secondary sexual characteristics that would allow you to be perceived as a woman
>but the sissy still wants himself to call a man, and you don't want to grant him his identity? that's a bit transphobic if you ask me

You're baiting. I am done.

>>41589790
irreversible =/= needs invasive treatments to be reversible
Also the change in here wasn't even started by MJ, which makes categorizing it like that pointless, which makes me question why are you even so hung up on this one specific case. If you're sperging out about race, most people that hadn't seen MJ pre-vitiligo would tell you he's white anyway, which also makes your point deeply retarded

>>41589807
>most people that hadn't seen MJ pre-vitiligo would tell you he's white anyway
really nigga?

>>41589807
you can succesfully black your skin without having vitiligo (like Beyoncé), yet we still find this offensive, my point is that if people find blackface or whiteface offensive, then womanface should also be offensive

>>41589827
this is just lightning + no tan (yes, black people can tan anon)

>>41589928
>this is just lightning
kek

>>41588464
nah, that's obviously bullshit. fake trans get criticized all the time from left and right

>>41588152 (OP)
no idea who this bitch is or what she did

it's not like i'm not a nightmare for trans politics lmao
i'm a massive fucking degenerate gooner with no friends and strained working relationships
i'm a hon with a passing voice
i changed my documents as soon as i could and started using the women's restroom once i started getting hugboxed bc i thought it meant i passed
everything i learned about womanhood, i learned from my ex gf
i almost never leave the house now though so idk

>>41591636
There was a time where I would've agreed with >>41588464
Like I had a friend defend woodshophon's actions. So maybe a PSA that you don't have to treat obvious bad actors the same as everyone else.

>>41588538
By changing clothes? Normal people do that everyday. I am not my khaki trousers.

>>41588692
> especially post-operative
That’s fine they have done all the good faith measures but you still don’t magically gain entree into women’s spaces or sports.

>>41591738
>i changed my documents
Ok but this doesn’t magically make you pass
> and started using the women's restroom
Either you are lying about this as bait or you will literally end up as a thread like this very one we are posting in now.

>>41592229
Sports is the one thing I'll half concede on. I'm just not prepared to die on that hill.
But spaces? If you can't tell someone "used to be a man"--like if they're literally morphologically female--what justification do you still have for excluding them from women's spaces? Pissing contests in the restroom are kind of a man thing anyway.

>>41591738
> no idea who this bitch is or what she did
she went into the women’s locker room and was harassed and video
taped for being trans. didn’t do anything

>>41592321
> If you can't tell someone "used to be a man"--like if they're literally morphologically female--what justification do you still have for excluding them from women's spaces?
the OP is specifically about the opposite and they are being harassed. i will ask again, why is “passing” the criteria now for what locker room you use?

>>41592248
i was misgendered once in a barnes and nobles somewhere in montana like a year ago, but aside from that i haven't been misgendered since 6 months on hrt
i don't trust any of it though, everyone is hugboxing

>>41592386
okay that's kind of fucked up, but tbf if i were her i wouldn't use the women's locker room

>>41592649
> okay that's kind of fucked up, but tbf if i were her i wouldn't use the women's locker room
so as a male, i don’t get a say of having a women in my locker room?

>>41592649
> i was misgendered once in a barnes and nobles
unless the person is a ideological right winger, they usually apologize and ask what pronouns

>>41588152 (OP)
the four honsmen of the opticalypse

>>41592713
i am male too
>>41592735
idk i just apologized and he didn't respond

>>41592410
Functionally it kind of always was in that if you pass and you don't wave any theoretical or actual girldicks around then no one will know to object to your presence and TMZ won't run a story about you.

Personally I think people should be nicer than that and the only thing I might want to gatekeep on is shit like this >>41588310
I'm generally unconvinced by "but women's safety" arguments especially in the US where just about any idiot or crazy asshole can legally carry a gun. Like in every other aspect of life we accept that some compromise of safety is the cost of freedom. But then someone troons out and suddenly it's the honpocalypse.

>>41593405
my mom is a victim of a brutal rape by gang of ken and is perfectly ok with trans women in women’s spaces. this is a non issue. when i see alexia black and see red lip stick i think women. sticking her in men’s bathroom leaves her open to sa. cis women need to speak up and say we are not victims. we are not weak.

>>41593638
Oh yeah this is 1000% like 10 people making an international story about nothing.
The problem is it only takes one person objecting loudly enough to make "news" like this.

Sorry about what your mom went through :(

I was SA'd too. Ironically after leaving a place that only had shared gender neutral restrooms. By a man who identified as a man and presented as one.

>>41593784
> The problem is it only takes one person objecting loudly enough to make "news" like this.
lunatics should not be running the asylum. one person yelling and acting crazy doesn’t mean society should cater to them. its illegal in ca to deny public access to bathrooms to a trans women

>>41589493
real women are just incubators, huh, Lilith?

>>41594088
Agreed. The real problem is the lunatics are also running the media. Sorry but "trans woman goes to gym" just isn't news in any sane society.
Make telling Karens to pound sand great again!

>>41594232
i thought TMZ coverage was good for Alexia Black. hosts were respectful. bit yea media is a huge issue. golds is reviewing suspending her membership, which is bs

>>41593638
This isn’t in the least believable but ok post it on an anonymous board ig