Thread 41601193

How could one make the case for trans (or any other cause under the LGBT umbrella) from within a right-wing intellectual framework? Let's ignore the trad Christians/etc, since that's a bit thornier due to dogma. But from within the sort of post-manosphere aesthetics and virtue ethics right, how do we make the case for trans?

I have no personal stake in this, but I like a good challenge, and I enjoy practicing argument and making propaganda. How do you make a brand new argument in favor of transgenderism, one that works within a framework that currently totally rejects it? How do we start from that set of principles and work our way to "Trans is good actually", without ever passing through liberalism (to which they have strong antibodies)? I know we have a lot of chuds on /lgbt/ that are familiar enough with the framework, I'd like to see what they come up with.

>>41601193 (OP)
List all the bonuses we get from transitioning? But this might scare them even more because it can easily make us sound over powered.

trannies preserve traditional gender roles as conservatives want, they believe men should be masculine, women should be feminine, and homosexuals should be castrated
seems a match made in heaven
I mean look at Iran, they are conservative, and they love transsexuals

Humiliating "women's sports" has been a huge win. Remember when people used to say top women players could compete in the men's leagues?

But the more serious answer... I think some sort of transhumanist alchemy is the obvious way to go. That the spirit of man is too noble to be bound forever within the prison of the body, that to become masters over our body and demonstrate total mastery over it with drugs/etc. is to become more fully human, transcending the single aspect and discovering the bi-gendered soul. To this end we would need more ruthlessly aesthetically-minded troons, troons that never post a single Dark Souls meme, troons that are completely devoted to becoming The Androgyne. A troon that can be both Adam and Eve, wouldn't that be sublime?

(Alchemically ofc this is a bit rubbish, a bit of a sleight of hand; for we are equivocating between different things when we pretend material manipulation of the body is anything like the soul truly ruling the body)

>>41601193 (OP)
>right-wing
>intellectual
ha, this whole premise is retarded

where the left runs on empathy, rightoids like their mandate of heaven - trump/shapiro/peterson/tate/whoever is right because they're cool or successful, and they're cool or successful because they're right. guys want trannies and at least some trannies want guys. if you just frame it as a state of success you can be smug about you're going to upset and confuse a lot of people who've been coasting on vibes politics

>>41601284
To this end the technology needs to get better. Everything that is gross and second-rate and smelly about being trans needs to disappear. It needs to be clean and effortless and as good as the real thing.

We need to stop coping about the state of things presently. Hunter Shafer is a step in the right direction but not nearly good enough. Unfortunately the practical perfection of the tech needs to precede the intellectual defense. The current state of trooning is not defensible, but we could get to a point where it is. It has to produce beauty.

Perfecting the art and literally seducing right-wing 'thought leaders' is how we eventually win.

jesus fucking christ you guys are retarded

We look ugly and feel depressed on testosterone. If youth transitions were mainstream, we would assimilate perfectly, even better than gays.
>>41601340
>It has to produce beauty.
literally just youth transitioning. Too bad rightoids are wallowing in determenism for everything: class, gender, race etc. They are retarded and actively want to make the world worse to uphold ephemeral norms because their retarded, shriveled and ignorant brains do not know any better
>t.landianpilled moldbugtroon

If I could take this beautiful and new and exciting thing and come up with some way to convince right-wingers that it's their own idea, I wouldn't do it. I don't want them appropriating this for themselves, and I don't even think it's that far-fetched to imagine that they would. Sure this would bring about society-wide trans acceptance, but although that's a very good thing it comes at an unacceptable price.

Because ultimately the pernicious and evil thing about Fascism is not any PARTICULAR bigotry that it may happen to indulge today; it is the way in which it marshalls our sentiments and our aesthetics into a purely aesthetic and non-material politics so that it may conserve unjust structures of exploitation.

>>41601394
Maybe we need to present to them some kind of rigorous and scientific (and the more it looks like eugenics the better) system for determining the most promising candidates for youth transition, so children who will flourish more as the other gender are identified as early as possible. Even funnier if we do this with AI prediction somehow. Sadly I doubt there's any way to get data for that.

But if such a thing could be developed, it could be presented to the right in such a way as to create as much infighting as possible between the 'realists' and the tradcon moralfags.

>>41601428
we should screen all children for gender dysphoria, then euthanize those who have it, and sterilize both of their parents

>>41601436
Don't worry anon, we'll make sure gender dysphoria does not exist. There will only be gender euphoria. We'll have trans girls so Hyperborean you can eat off their neopussies

>>41601428
Maybe we need to fucking kill them. Rightoids are vermin mutilating our vessels and poisoning our souls, and we have no choice but to eradicate these stubborn malevolent creatures. Even though I do not think it works, I will fully and earnestly support socialism, communism and any other far-left ideology if it would make these ghouls bleed.

>>41601470
Calm down Alice

>>41601475
You will never produce offspring LOL

>>41601478
Make sure you're getting enough progesterone to balance out that estrogen, ok? Estrogen excitation and hyperlocution is no joke. I don't like seeing anyone this stressed.

>>41601496
Calm down, future mass grave occupant

>>41601514
Everybody gotta die of something.

>>41601517
We're going to fucking kill you

>>41601518
No you're not lol
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQke8btgdoh/

>>41601522
he's so pretty :3

>>41601311
Let's just say you're more than a little bit out-of-touch on the topic of the right wing.

"Let us exist or we will kill all of us."

>>41601193 (OP)
you can't, because the right has no intellectual framework. rightoids would only defend transness if it were traditional in our society for trans people to exist

>>41601193 (OP)
The left is rejecting trannies too btw

>>41601193 (OP)
Im tired of fucking tourists like you invading our board. If you’re not lgbt then leave

>>41601311
>the left runs on empathy
They didn't seem to have much empathy for Charlie Kirk

>>41603699
And the right made fun of suicidal trans people. I personally don't agree with people celebrating Kirk's death because at the end of the day he was still a person with a family. There's shitty people on both sides regardless of ideology and a lot of people turn the culture war into a moral competition where both sides dehumanise each other. Regardless of political stance, a lot of them are grifters or people with weak morals, only "empathising" when someone from their side of the turf is affected. Sucks that we can't put aside our differences over stupid cultural shit when we should be demanding our economies and the poor standard of living situation to be fixed.

>>41601193 (OP)
being right-wing is a matter of faith: opposing reality, evidence, and critical thought in favor of whatever you believe because it is what you are told, imagine, fear, or desire

stop tolerating faith

>>41603860
NTA, and I'm not trying to defend ropeposting etc (in which I do not personally participate because I think it's ghoulish!), but I hope you can understand that someone who is murdered is more of a victim than someone who murders himself, that these are really not equivalent

>>41603699
>>41601311
>the left runs on empathy
lol, leftists casually dismiss rapes and murders just because the author happens to be from a marginalized group but esplode in rage when you say certain words. they also support murdering babies in cold blood. you have to be somewhat psychopathic to be a leftist

>>41603699
I find it intriguing how acting like the right does (totally unrepentant, accusing it of being a false flag, he deserved it, etc.) just once gets them rabidly accusing the left of psychopathy.
Yeah, constant right wing psychopathy did kill my sense of empathy and I'm pretty jaded about the future now.

>>41601193 (OP)
You can't really argue with facts when the right runs on emotions like fear.

>>41604350
The closer analog would be right-wingers joking about and celebrating the murder of Dr. King—which some did. Politics gets nasty, always has.

>>41602811
>The left is rejecting trannies too btw

Arguing with people about trans people won't win elections. What I am seeing on the left (Zorham Mamdani, Zach Polanski and that movement on the left) is that they've decided that arguing with people about whether trans people can go in what bathroom won't win elections since people are struggling to afford food.

>>41604434
Zohran Mamdani embraced trans people and started talking about them positively as opposed to acting cagey and just saying stuff like "I will follow the law," which seems like the opposite approach

>>41601533
No, he's right. Modern conservatives have nothing in common with the likes of Jünger. There's all the pretense to care for traditional values; in actuality you are all machiavellian modernizers. Your value system is power. The true greats of the right recognized a necessity in culture and sacrificing for a higher power; you guys will worship anyone who will beat minorities, even if their economic policies undermine social cohesion. Pure slave morality, politics of ressentiment.

>>41601193 (OP)
>a right-wing intellectual framework
a whatnow

>>41604484
I'm not saying those politicians aren't very strong in their pro trans belief. What I am saying is that they are willing to shift the focus to cost of living.

>>41604610
The fact that you use "conservative" as a synonym for right-wing gives away immediately how ignorant you are about what's happening on the right in 2025. It would be like if I said "liberals" when we were talking about the left.

>>41601193 (OP)
>right wing intellectual
no such thing.

>>41604993
This is such a funny cope. It's absolutely fine to say that right-wing thinkers are wrong, you don't have to pretend they don't exist. Nor is it particularly flattering to your side when you guys treat the word "intellectual" with such seriousness. What's so impressive about "intellectuals" that you need to insist they're all on your side? It kind of makes you sound retarded

>>41605152
>it’s cringe that you think your political opponents are stupid
shut up stupid retard. there is no right wing intellectual framework. who do you faggots even have in mind? Yarvin is retarded. Land is mid. Evola was a cringey schizo. right wing thinking doesn’t have an intellectual foundation, just rhetoric and mythology. it is based on vibes and dogma retroactively “justified” with sophistry. there is nothing intellectually grounded to being an antisocial narcissist which is why there is no point in debating right wingers. the rules of logic and evidence to not apply to the lizard brained ideologies of the right. right wingers misunderstand everything at every conceivable level, from natural science to history to economics. nothing interesting or novel or profound there. Right wing fags have been saying the same shit for thousands of years. BORING!

the tate doctrine clearly states that a sufficiently masculine male will naturally determine the real sex of a woman based on his level of attraction to her

>>41604883
But the left will never win again unless they stop supporting the gender grift. Trannies are a mining canary for illogical thought, you can't support them and be taken seriously. Like flat earth.

>>41604012
>being right-wing is a matter of faith: opposing reality, evidence, and critical thought in favor of whatever you believe because it is what you are told, imagine, fear, or desire
strong overlap with gender ideology

>>41605350
>muh gender ideology
already filled out 6 out of 7 adjectives with these 3 words geg

>>41601193 (OP)
Really it depends on how far right we're talking here. The typical conservative, religious or otherwise, can probably be convinced on some "live and let live" ideas and comparative arguments to other lifestyles. Further right would be harder for the "tradcath" larpers but you could probably borrow the Iranian forced transition for gays. For the odinist/pagan larpers, do research into gender among the pre Christian germanics, as I understand it they had some pretty libertine views on sex and gender.
>>41601311
>where the left runs on empathy, rightoids like their mandate of heaven
You are retarded lol. Fat left ideology is just as inhumane and cruel as far right ideology and the nazbols will throw us in the camps when it's convenient for the party

>>41605366
67

>>41605240
>there is no right wing intellectual framework
Admittedly there isn't "one" framework, but there are frameworks, and I explicitly referred to one: Aristotelian virtue ethics... This is why there seems to be no possible agreement between left and some factions on the right on transgenderism: they are not operating from any harm principle, they are beginning from ideas about "what a person ought to be", "nature", teleology, etc. You're free to think "that's dumb" if you want. But insisting that your movement be judged by its thinkers and mine be judged by its loudmouth pundits is not really apples to apples. (Also Moldbug is not retarded, even if he leans too much on Carlyle. Can't comment on Evola since I've only read his intro to hermeticism, which was brilliant but also ofc possibly horseshit lol)

I know you're not trying to convince me, you're just trying to make a performance of 'humiliating' me for a propaganda victory (I say this neutrally, it's not necessarily the wrong thing to do), but there has to be some kind of high-level internal discourse within the LGBT faction—gatekept from the masses, sure—where it can be privately admitted that the right wing has intellectual movements within it. (That's not to say that the current wave of FYP right retardation is an intellectual phenomenon, obviously.) Not to know this would be a dangerous ignorance; not to be able to admit it even internally would be almost as dangerous. Know thy enemy, etc. Maybe my mistake is thinking a discussion on 4chan could be reasonably 'internal' rather than being, you know, public theater.

As I said, I really want to think through whether this argument CAN be made. I think that's a fun exercise; more fun than just restaging the same fruitless skirmishes on the frontlines of the culture war over and over again

>>41601193 (OP)
A 'right wing intellectual framework' isn't the issue. We're in a hard left-wing intellectual framework, LGBT and Socialism are being pushed on every college campus and in every media institution excepting some very few. The issue is that you're in a heterosexual-majority framework. LGBT is the outlier minority and it always sucks to be the outlier minority.

Since the alternative is that the majority becomes gay and the human race dies off completely thoughever, I don't think you're ever going to see a homosexual majority society excepting perhaps a society in its last death throes. The absolute best case scenario is that it happens, people grow old without replacements and everybody dies - the more likely outcome would be that everybody else identifies LGBT as the threat killing humanity and goes to drag everyone out in the streets and stone them to death.

Acceptance is born of being easy to ignore, not out of dominance. People still bitch about France and England hundreds of years after they've passed out of relevance and power, people will still bitch about the US a thousand years from now. Becoming the dominant force just makes people hate you 'cause they ain't you, it doesn't get you the peaceful acceptant future that you're looking for.

>>41601193 (OP)
>How could one make the case for trans (or any other cause under the LGBT umbrella) from within a right-wing intellectual framework?
Why are you asking questions that you don't care about the answers for?

Not one single tranny actually CARES about anyone right of Stalin or their opinions.

>>41605622
I think most the routes you're pointing out are what I had in mind when I said "without ever passing through liberalism". Maybe it's stupid to avoid liberalism in an American context, since American normies are so predisposed to reverting to liberalism no matter what their stated beliefs, and liberalism always seems to win in the end.

BUT I do think presently the right is really trying to become "post-liberal" and they are numbed to liberal arguments. "Ackshually your bronze age heroes were libertines who didn't always conform to our ideas of gender" is an argument they already expect to hear regularly, like clockwork, being churned out in PhD thesis after PhD thesis from various woman academic mediocrities. It does not land, it confirms their view about the left when the left tries to make this argument, and they don't really worship any particular ancient tribe like this such than an argument like that could make any difference to them. If they do ancestor-worship in a true "pagan LARP" sense then they are an invincibly ignorant sort of person and you can't reach them anyway lol

I think trad Christians are really maybe impossible on this, I do think it's interesting that the soul is genderless and there's some room to explore what is meant by it being united to a sexed body, and to what extent it is permissible to think of gender and sex as distinct; but there is absolutely no wiggle room to introduce any ideas that denigrate the dignity of the sexed body or to transcend its 'telos' as evidenced in its design. There IS room to make the Father James Martin, SJ line about outreach/compassion/etc better-understood by right-wing Christians, and to soften their judgment, but that's the current front in an ongoing inter-Catholic struggle and everyone knows it, it'll hardly take them by surprise.

>>41605837
I think they would enjoy being able to make their enemies squirm, which a really good, penetrating argument could do. Sadly I can't think of one.

The interesting thing that the LGB + T coalition was hugely successful in legitimizing transgenderism in a liberal context, but absolutely torpedoed its chances in the Christian context, where LGB thoroughly lost the argument because there was far too much explicit precedent forbidding it. Transgenderism presented as "a new and deeper descent into what is already forbidden" was setting it up to fail.

If transgenderism had been considered on its own without that baggage, who knows?

>>41601193 (OP)
by saying we must return to ancient greek and roman sexuality

>>41603699
>celebrate the murder of martin luther king
>celebrate when children are driven to suicide
>celebrate the rape and subjugation of foreign children
>celebrate the mistreatment of citizens by police
>you have to have empathy for us or you're literally satan
Why should i feel empathy for degenerate sadists who reject their own humanity for personal gain?

>>41605904
>I think they would enjoy being able to make their enemies squirm, which a really good, penetrating argument could do.
There wouldn't be an argument that could make them squirm.
They already think so little of you.

The only thing discussion could do is raise you up out of the mud pit you are currently lying in.
But nobody wants that.

>>41605904
>I think most the routes you're pointing out are what I had in mind when I said "without ever passing through liberalism
Ah, so what you want is a train of thought that justifies trans existence from within that "framework?" That is indeed a tough nut to crack
>BUT I do think presently the right is really trying to become "post-liberal" and they are numbed to liberal arguments
The left is definitely going "post-liberal" in that they have a whole generation of leftists who are proudly "anti-liberal" and very much act like your typical ignorant old conservative which puts the right in a tight bind they can quite figure out. We're in for very interesting times as social contracts begin to fail and the socialist nature of American political power structures and our aristocratic class becomes harder to ignore.
>I think trad Christians are really maybe impossible
The best religious argument within non-crazy/anti-medicine christianity would be that gender dysphoria is an mental illness and the most humane treatment is transition, more or less. That God would not want you to suffer and be inhibited by gender dysphoria any more than He would want you to lose an arm to Gangrene when you could've prevented it

>>41606011
BAP et al are already laying the groundwork to both normalize a certain kind of ancient homoeroticism while also maintaining that it is different in spirit from and unconnected with modern-day gay ideology and culture. Partly this is being done only to gatekeep emotional reactive tradcons though, hard to tell how sincere it is

>>41606052
Yeah it's funny that the ascendant factions in both parties really are swinging post-liberal (since that seems to be fashionable right now, maybe it's a millennial thing) while the American public are still mostly liberals, so capturing the lib swing vote by pandering to their lib sensibilities is the only way either of these parties can pursue their post-liberal goals.

One reason I'm bearish on J.D. Vance is that I think the postlib right underestimates how important it was to the American public that Trump was so obviously personally a 90s liberal, whereas Vance doesn't give that impression at all. I think they're greatly overestimating how much pandering to the Twitterati actually raises a candidate's likability with voters.

>>41606163
>Yeah it's funny that the ascendant factions in both parties really are swinging post-liberal (since that seems to be fashionable right now, maybe it's a millennial thing)
I think it's a mixture of a lot of things. Our aristocracy isn't new by any means, I think it's just a mixture of both sides fostering blatantly anti-democratic ideals and realizing that there isn't any more of the pie to go around. They can't continue to engorge themselves in ways that allow them to trickle down bread crumbs to the plebs. It's why nobody takes border security seriously; why bother trying to find a solution when you can import legions or second class citizens who will thank you for spitting in their mouths?
> how important it was to the American public that Trump was so obviously personally a 90s liberal
So-called political analysts will refuse to address this but you're absolutely right. 2016 trump didn't gaf about LGBT stuff and he focused on economic issues people cared about. The left has been shooting themselves in the foot for years by emphasizing social issue politics over economics and now Trump gets back in office and he's burning crazy amounts of politic capital on seething about troons at the behest of Elon and the other freaks he's surrounded himself with, while he ran on economic goals he's failing to maintain. Those who are paying attention to the last election might notice that a lot of the Dems that came out on top this cycle have ran on their own twist of 'why are you talking about trans people so much when people can't eat?" The average voter doesn't give a shit about us, they care about financial security that the government will have a harder time providing over the next few decades

>>41606306
>while he ran on economic goals he's failing to maintain
Well short-term pain is guaranteed with tariffs, and any country that can't impose short-term pain for long-term benefit is doomed. Even if the tariffs were to become wildly successful beyond anyone's expectations they still couldn't possibly have improved standards of living in one year lol. The thing I think Trump's doing very wrong is touting his short term success, which feels... extremely out of touch

>>41605705
hang yourself nigger

what right wing intellectual framework is there?
the problem is that the modern right is split into christians and non-christians. The christians cannot be reached because they are religiously opposed to all lgbt, but especially trannies who are seen as the epitome of the lgbt problem. And unlike islam (which I despise), there is no historical or cultural basis for acceptance of trannies in christianity as there is in iran or pakistan. lgbt has been the enemy of christianity for pretty much forever, and no amount of "neither jew nor greek, male nor female" is going to change that.
The non-christians don't have an intellectual framework beyond getting power and punishing the enemy. The voters might convince themselves that they do, but they don't and because of this it's really obvious that they have no consistent beliefs. The position of the rightoid changes every time trump tells a different lie, and even the most obvious stupid lie will be doublethink believed. Is it possible to argue that transitioning (including youth) is objectively beneficial for the individual and the society? Are there scientific studies showing this? Yes, but the right hates science so what's the point? They don't care about improving things, they care about punishing the enemy. Are there intellectual frameworks appealing to the right where trannies can be accepted, like classical european, evola, dark enlightenment, etc.? Yes, but the right doesn't actually care about this stuff, they just want to punish the enemy.
The last time the non-christian right had any real identity was like ron paul's campaign. Everything post-trump is running on "own the libs", where you just oppose the thing the other side does and punish them when you get in power. It's not to say I agree with the left wing intellectual frameworks, I certainly don't agree with mass immigration. But the difference is that the left supports it on the basis of real beliefs, and the right opposes it because the left supports it.

>>41601193 (OP)
The entire right-wing “intellectual”framework is based on religion, so you cannot make any real intellectual argument for anything, including LGBT shit. If you really want to try for some reason, just act as bad faith as possible while hiding the actual reason for your views, because that is the only language they understand.

>>41606361
>The thing I think Trump's doing very wrong is touting his short term success, which feels... extremely out of touch
Exactly, when his team can't seem to explain how the tariffs are gonna convert into epic Ws for the people and his getting massive pushback on tranny hate it's not exactly painting the picture of a put together leader he wants to paint.

>>41601193 (OP)
My mom doesn’t like that I’m a lesbian, but we were all born into sinful nature and i’m not hurting anyone. She prefers this to me bring in an abusive situation like she was. Most christians get divorced which isn’t biblical either or eat bacon (also, against the Bible). Jesus said, "Let him who is without sin among you cast the first stone" so no human can pass judgement. Only God can do that.

>>41606402
Wrong. >>41606635

>>41601193 (OP)
Rightwingers are inherently anti intellectual so it's not really possible

>>41606635
calling lesbians sinful is passing judgement
christians are such fucking hypocrites
I could never respect someone who thinks that someone deserves eternal torment just because they love someone of the same sex.

Right wing politics are one thing only: protect the rich, give everything to the rich. It's "intellectual framework" is whatever deception works well for the times to advance that agenda.

>>41606686
Do you actually honestly believe that or are you just saying that because that's what you've heard others say?

>>41606775
You know the answer already.

>>41606789
I know your initial reaction is to say you actually believe that, I'm asking you to introspect a little bit to recognize how retarded your opinion actually is

>>41606453
>Exactly, when his team can't seem to explain how the tariffs are gonna convert into epic Ws for the people

Just imagine, if you will, that you want to bring manufacturing back to the US and have the opportunity to provide the people jobs and also not be reliant on foreign countries for essential goods and services.

The people ordering the parts from the manufacturer would much prefer high quality over cost, but there is a point in which quality isn't worth the cost.

Your local unionised manufacturer, whilst high quality, runs at an extremely high cost in comparison to the foreign manufacturer. Even taking quality and shipping into account.

There is also the risk that the local manufacturer can go out of action for weeks every year due to industrial action over the company buying 2-ply toilet roll, and not 3-ply.

One thing you can do as the State, is push to make the overall costs equal.

>>41606388
>The non-christians don't have an intellectual framework beyond getting power and punishing the enemy
A few right-wingers misusing a SparkNotes version of Schmitt is not really representstive of how they actually see the world. Even if you accept that they'll do or say anything for the sake of the race/etc, you'd have to explain why they care about the race that way.

A muslim using taqiyya in public debate might not seem amenable to reason or to have a basis for his opportunistic ad-hoc 'positions' on the issues, but behind the mask he still has a real muslim point of view and there is such a thing as an intellectual framework for this. "Intellectual" does not mean "smart and correct and rational" by the way, it just means "relating to the understanding, belonging to the mind" etc... to call something an intellectual framework is to say these are the 'structural' elements in this person's understanding that all their particular notions depend on to make sense to them, it can be a rotten and worthless and stupid and still be an intellectual framework.

In the same way, Republicans can be frustratingly phony and misrepresent themselves in public politics, but there is a real set of views which they are pursuing through insincere propaganda etc., and these views which may to varying degrees be secret/private are held because they are or seem to be consistent with their preferred framework for interpreting the world.

But I know you prefer the absurd fantasy where every right-winger is a subhuman animal enslaved to his knee-jerk animal impulses and prerational brute unconscious biases, that there is no intellectual element to talk about because his simian politics were formed outside of the mind and are unresponsive to all input from the mind

>>41606080
At most some rw fags are willing to tolerate passing trannies while putting every obstacle possible to prevent them from achieving that. There is no reconciliation with people who target us for monetary reasons when the billionaire-astroturfed trans hate campaign is in full swing

Easily. Being trans is dysgenic. The appropriate response to this is sterilization. That just so happens to be halfway to HRT. At that point you will never be traditionally male so enforce the reverse gender role.
t. Didn't read anyones posts in this thread because nu-/lgbt/ is just a bunch of breadtube and twitter rotted zoomers and I will just close this tab after posting anyway

>>41606775
The other anon wasn't me. I know for a fact that rightwingers are anti intellectual due to the fact that y'all literally dismantle education wherever you can

>>41608144
>due to the fact that y'all literally dismantle indoctrination wherever you can
NTA but the education system is fucked beyond repair.

>>41608157
It is but destroying it wasn't the answer. Unless the question was how to we get more idiots to fall for rightoid propaganda

>>41601193 (OP)
>Conservative people believe that men are men and women are women.
>Most transwomen dont look passable at all. Transmen, in pictures, they actually look like men but in real life they are shorter than 1,71 metres guys, and both have funny voices. saying by experience.
>Trans people tends to hate conservative guys and are not open to debate with people who disagree with them.
How can you convince a guy that a trans guy that is shorter than him (and in most cases hates him) is a guy, too? Or that a trans girl that is taller than him (and also hates him, too) is a woman?

>>41607841
one of their leading lights already made basically this point

>>41607249
the rules that govern modern rightoids are only the rules that the system has forced on them
internally, they have no interest in rules and just worship power. When right wing politicians cut services and give tax breaks to rich companies, it's not because they're operating under particular rules that tell them this is a good thing, but because this is the method by which they can enrich themselves and their friends.
There is not much greater depth to it than this. The right wing desire for free speech is not a principle, it is begging for the power not to be silenced for hate or dishonesty. Right wing racism is overwhelmingly not about any actual belief system, but is something they were taught when young, and the justification as an adult is made post-fact, with no basis in rational thought. The right will not "do or say anything for the sake of the race", they certainly don't do that when they get in power. They just enrich themselves at the expense of the race, and the vast majority of rightoids would do the same. When american rightoids vote it is not because they believe in voting, but because voting is the only available method to get people who think like them in power, and they don't even care if their leaders are good for them or not.
there is no realistic pro-trans case to make to the right, because the trans hate is not based on anything real. It is a wedge issue forced by the people in power to maintain support from the portion of their support who just want a target to hate and were taught as children to hate lgbt, and the "cause" will be supported and amplified by the more intelligent supporters who see the propaganda value and also were taught too hate lgbt. But so long as their side values hating lgbt, there is no leverage anyone else has to change their minds.

>>41601193 (OP)
Julius Evola literally endorsed HRT for trannies in one of his books

>>41601394
>youth trooning out is the way.
Literally it is one of the main reasons conservatives are against to transgenderism, they say trans are after their children and you are proving them right. It will only radicalise them into hating trans even more

what is a right-wing intellectual?

>>41608936
"...which you have not even heard about"

>>41609059
people who are more concerned with the material of the world in a spiritual sense, it's not all wrong in a similar way the left's equality above all is.
- a trans girl who spent a decade in right wing space.

>>41609272
Spirituality=low as fuck intelligence

>>41601193 (OP)
abandon any mention of social constructs, it's a facile argument that only gained popularity in the modern day because of a study in China finding that it resulted in the least amount of violent outburst from those who read it
prepare to argue medical causes. If the transgender condition is a neurological condition (for which there is a lot of evidence), they would have a much more difficult time arguing against it.

>>41610236
Spirituality is incredibly important, we don't have life without it, be good.
I'm not interested in whataboutisms

>>41610316
Lmao fucking shizo. I bet you think you can't be a good person without God too.

>>41601311
Retards like you aren't even worth talking with, what you deserve is a hit to the head so you're knocked out unconscious and finally stop pestering everyone around you for once in your life.

>>41610325
rude, this is why progressive trans rights doesn't work.

>>41610340
Sure rightoid religofag. Crawl back into your cave

>>41604982
Anyone who openly identifies with the left does not exceed liberalism. Anyone who openly identifies with the right (in America) wants to return to an older form of liberalism, and is thus conservative. The woke right is basically just bringing back 19th century liberal national politics (as is the woke left.)

The real divide is between partisan retards and the nihilists. You are a partisan retard that thinks your right wing politics is really revolutionary, really new stuff this time.

>>41606052
>is an mental illness and the most humane treatment
I would phrase it more like palliative care. Its a terminal illness with no cure and transition is the best way to ease suffering

>>41610670
I'm not trying to do anything revolutionary. I just want good government that prioritizes my own people

>>41601193 (OP)
The medical argument is the best. My entire Orthodox religious conservative family accepts me because I successfully made the case that this is simply an unfortunate medical condition I was born with, which is genuinely how I view it. My doctor is an Iranian immigrant (trained in Iran) who also views and frames my situation the same way. I work hard to pass, do so, and am well-integrated. I think this would work on more right-wingers than a lot of more radical trans people would like to believe.

>>41610908
Back in the old days we all argued that it was a medical condition and were pretty accepted for it. Sort of like in a ew they are freaks but they can't help it kind of way
Most of you are millennials and younger but this was pretty much the way it was for the longest time. People saw it as a weird freaky deformity, but also thought it was a natural way of the world that couldn't be changed

>>41610989
Outside of "intersex" cases I've never heard of this being accepted as a medical condition, maybe a mental condition

>>41610989
Also just wanted to add that I'm not white or American so perhaps your cultural history is unsimilar. But for the rest of the world, it was this way

>>41610858
The problem is ultimately the existence of the global economy, which cannot be undone. All of humanity is linked together at the metabolic level. As such, the world needs a form of organization that is post-government and post any idea of "my people," because whether you like it or not, at the most objective level - the level of material production and material need - we are already a one people.

You are a conservative because you are cucked. You look at what is demanded by your stomach and by your dwelling and ignore it all in favor of national fantasies that were overcome 100 years ago. You refuse to go through the grieving process, and instead remain politically impotent. You deliver your support to politics, where neoliberals continue to deepen the globalizing forces that made the world you wished for impossible.

That is why your kind are so much worse, so much more despicable, than rightists of the 20th century. They had a real revolutionary commitment to the (aristocratic-feudal) past. They jumped into the abyss of modernity in spite of themselves. But they won, and in their victory ironically destroyed the last vestiges of that aristocratic heritage. Now we are left with the LARPers, the phillistines, the populists, the snivelling retards like yourself who refuse to open their eyes to reality. Motivated exclusively by ressentiment and Machiavellianism, you are the very degeneracy you whine about. A fragment of a world lone gone to hospice but which refuses to die.

>>41611002
Maybe medical condition is the wrong word because back in the day most people were uneducated and only perceived disease through symptoms. I don't really know how to explain. Its sort of like when a child is born with down syndrome, and another child has bipolar. Everyone could tell there is something off with both children, but they don't have the education to distinguish that one is a genetic disorder and one is a metal disorder. They just know that these children are abnormal and they accept it as a natural state of the world that children are born like that sometimes

>>41611080
So when someone born as a man started living their life as a woman, people would just accept it as though it was another weird condition that happened to people sometimes. They didn't necessary see it as a choice but an affliction of the mind that tormented that man making him that way

Reality is, homosexualism is inherently anti-natural and contrarian to biology. A glitch in the code. We can only exist within a state of embraced individuality.

There is no left or right wing endgame which LGBT can co-exist with. It's why I laugh at underaged trantifa retards on here, you really think you're not getting a bullet in the end? systems of power which seek stability to rule will always favor conditions for that. That means prioritizing breeders to support their economys after upheaval. Every communist regime has gone the route of genociding gays within their walls but promoting it elsewhere ( ie China )
. Gays are an expendable outlier political intellectual agendas.

Once you understand that as a gay/dyke/tranny, schizoid schools of thought really make a lot more sense for our survival. Stop being a tool for other ideologies and hermitmaxx.

>>41611140
Also my country has developed a lot and we have become so influenced by american politics that now we argue the same liberal vs conservative talking points as the rest of you, but I suspect a lot of thirdies still think this way and I long for it to return back

>>41611173
trvke

>>41610568
no

>>41601193 (OP)
lesbian or gay marriage is easy.
unless you have a state religion and only accept marriages from within your country done by a priest of the state religion, you already have gay marriage. if you ever recognise marriages done by other religions and or in other countries but haven't made gay marriage legal, all you've done is outsource gay marriage.
which means the only thing you've done, is make it so that gay marriage is legal for those that can go to another country and all the wedding expenses goes to another country.
it also means you can't argue that the law isn't discriminatory and use that for literally any other legal issue.

for being trans, it's a similar thing. if you don't recognise someone in your countries right to be trans but a foreigner comes in, they're trans but nowhere on their passport says so, you're actively discriminating against your own people.
it literally just means that you're giving foreigners more rights than trans people of your country.
and again with the money, which is made worse if you have socialised health care.
if i go to another country to get surgery, that country gets my money for my hotel, food for staying, the surgery and then i come home. any medical problems from a foreign surgeon are going to be paid for by my country, boosting foreign economies at the expense of our own.

>>41611350
Literally all you have to say is "we don't recognize gay marriages" and then gay "married" couples have a piece of paper which entitles them to absolutely nothing, legally

>>41611376
that is all you need to do, the problem is that you then have to justify why in a historically christian country, where most people are christian or atheist, that you recognise the marriage of muslims but not gay couples from your own country that got married in another christian country.

>>41611394
It's actually not complicated because Christians have always recognized 'natural' (non-sacramental) marriages as a lesser but valid union, simply forbidden to Christians

>>41611432
That is to say, a muslim marriage is a valid union according to *natural law*, while a "gay marriage" is not.

>>41611432
>>41611442
it isn't complicated, it's just very bad for optics, the economy and potentially a security risk if people with state secrets move abroad to live married.

you could very easily argue why marriages from different religions are acknowledged, but good luck convincing the average person when i can simply mention the muslim prophets marriage and ask why the state would recognise the marriage of a late 40s and a 6 year old but not gay adults.

again it's all about optics, it's why you never see anyone right wing even mentioning this. it makes them look bad when they inevitably try to use the government to push their social order.

>>41611471
>it's just very bad for optics,
...according to whom lol

You forget that this made sense to everyone not even 20 years ago. Obama said he wouldn't legalize gay marriage.

Gays don't even really have normal marriages. You can look at what "gay marriages" are like and it's an farce. It requires a constant inundation of Hollywood propaganda showing "gay families" etc to make people believe in it, and that slew of propaganda could only exist in a particular historical context where the liberation of desire took on a quasi-religious significance. This is a historical aberration and we should expect a regression to the mean.

>>41601193 (OP)
libertarianism (Christian, monarchist MtF here)

i had a libertarian friend who owned 30 or 40 guns and said stuff to me like "i believe gay trans married couples should be allowed to defend their private marijuana plantations with tanks and AR-15s"

>>41611571
...ok but libertarianism IS liberalism

>>41601518
You will pretend you never supported Zohran when it turns out he is just another libtard, like you did with AOC.

>>41611571
With liberals and libertarians is easy, but what about a person that believes a man will always be a man and a woman always be a woman? That is completely and utterly against transitioning from a young age? Who will you convince him that a trans are as valid as a cis when he can tell who're the trans one in 8 out of 10 cases? How will you convince him that trans people don't hate him and are not a threat for him and his children?