"Living In The Eighties" edition

Previous: >>24448076

/wg/ AUTHORS & FLASH FICTION: https://pastebin.com/ruwQj7xQ
RESOURCES & RECOMMENDATIONS: https://pastebin.com/nFxdiQvC

Please limit excerpts to one post.
Give advice as much as you receive it to the best of your ability.
Follow prompts made below and discuss written works for practice; contribute and you shall receive.
If you have not performed a cursory proofread, do not expect to be treated kindly. Edit your work for spelling and grammar before posting.
Violent shills, relentless shill-spammers, and grounds keeping prose, should be ignored and reported.
(And maybe double-space your WIPs to allow edits if you want 'em.)

Simple guides on writing:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHdzv1NfZRM
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whPnobbck9s
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAKcbvioxFk

Thread theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1U1Ue_5kq8

>>24456411
Over and over, I hear anons talk about writing something, then deleting it almost immediately. Lack of confidence is your problem, not writing. I keep everything I write. Sometimes I figure out what to do with it, sometimes it languishes indefinitely. But I always keep it. This is like a visual artist trashing his sketchbook constantly. It literally makes no sense. No one's going to see it except you, so what's the issue?

Do you self-publish online?
What sites do you use for it?
What genres do you write?
Do you get plenty of comments and reviews?
Are you able to monetize your writing?

>>24456499
>This is like a visual artist trashing his sketchbook constantly.
This is a fairly common phenomenon among Japanese artists

>>24456512
I upload Monster Girl Encyclopedia fanfiction on Archive of Our Own. I get a few comments each time and kudos given vary in the range of 8-40.
Under my own name I look forward to maybe winning a writing contest for short fiction one of these days.

>>24456514
So is hara-kiri. Doesn't make it a good idea.

I just don’t know how to hook the reader with the first sentence.

>>24456676
If someone doesn't die in the first sentence agents will usually trash the manuscript

>>24456499
Bad shit is bad shit. Why would I keep it around? It brings pleasure to no one, only pain. And there is a risk, however small, that someone else may find it.

>>24456758
But the victim better not be queer, a woman, or person of color. Unless the next sentence established the killer was an evil straight white male.

>>24456915
What if it's a tragedy?

>>24456758
agents are such trash. somebody has to take care of the agent problem.

>>24456758
>If someone doesn't die in the first sentence agents will usually trash the manuscript
This creates/created the trope for the twisted serial killer novel. First chapter? Tends to open all at once, on the evil killer, doing their thing. Then, periodically drop in short chapters of the same. The POV of everything else, can now build up steadily. That first chapter, will be salacious twisted evil. Murder/torture porn. If not that, it will be shocking clinical detachment, say from a professional killer.
These so called "rules", have turned twisted serial killer novels, into (hopefully) well written formulas. Why does it work? Sex and violence are cheap thrills. Those opening/dropped-in POV through the killers or the victims eyes? are like an allowance. meanwhile, the MC/MCs, can slowly build up. Until they start to give out their own interesting thing.
Its a cheap trick, but it works.
I reality though, its nothing but the writing industry's own version of the boring rules of pop music.
"Hook better be immediate, and just *grab* me."
"Don't bore us, get to the chorus."
the "hook", is using sex/violence.
the "chorus", is returning to the same, to keep interest.

>>24457535
allegories between writing fiction and writing music, are many.
Industry: Better hook me on the first sentence.
Writers: okay, whatever.
good writers: this leads to writing by formula!
Industry: No new author should write anything, longer than 80k to perhaps 100k words. You're not Tolkein.
writers: okay.
good writers: where do bigger, good books or trilogies come from?
Industry back: We'll tell you!
-----------------------------------------
analysis: those who can't write, become agents and editors. I mean, if they could, with all their insider knowledge and contacts? They would.
>
this is not to say, that rules of thumb do not exist for a reason. New writers fall into many of the same traps. Among them, what I heard called "sprawl". (launched at web novels in general. Most are too short, or they go way too long.)
>
my take on it all.
Yeah, I made every new writer mistake possible, and I fucking mean BAR NONE.
I'm sure I got a few left, too.
as with music, there I go again with analogy to music industry...
obey all the rules, until you have the experience and ability to figure out which rules to break.
Yet, I stand solid behind my assessment. What agent or editor wouldn't want to be the next author?
Those who can, do. Those who can't? Teach.
>
STILL, its all *great* advice, for new writers to learn

>>24456512
>Do you self-publish online?
no - that disqualifies you from lit mags/journals
>What sites do you use for it?
I see people using substack mostly
>What genres do you write?
"literary fiction", magical realism
>Do you get plenty of comments and reviews?
lol no, just from family which doesn't count, and the editors of the lit mags/journals themselves.
>Are you able to monetize your writing?
no, and never thought to. don't think it'll ever be in the cards for me. I do have a novel idea/draft but it'll only ever be something for me and it probably will never sell shit

Bros sometimes I read/write too much and I get almost physically ill from it. it's actually like overeating. I feel sick to my stomach if I see more literature or poetic language. straight up literary exhaustion and burnout.

>check out this profound, touching passage from this acclaimed sensitive book
who gives a fuck just let me die, nothing matters anyways and it's all shit, tired of it all

>bro, make sure you keep reading while you write
Took this advice and it's killing me
My writing is such ass in comparison, I don't even believe I can think in the ways that some of these authors do to come up with the subtle symbolism, the similes, everything.

>>24457845
John Updike and Philip Roth are the latest to bust my balls like that.

What makes a good backcover summary or pitch?

>>24456772
You're way too hard on yourself. Things can be fixed. It may even inspire something better. Trashing it is final.

>>24457772
>>24457845
offtopic. this is more about your mental illness than it is about writing

>>24457766
>mags/journals
Are those even still relevant? You may be living in the distant, distant past.

>>24457490
Isn't that one of the advantages of Amazon KDP/print-on-demand? And it's not like tradpubbing means your book is going to sell worth squat.

>>24456676
"As soon as I shove this hot poker up my ass, I'm going to rip my dick off!" the Pope shouted to a roomful of stunned cardinals.

>>24456566
I think 腹切り is pretty fucking metal, desu.
A lot of lives could be made cooler (and the lives of fictional characters made more significant, as is relevant to this thread) by the employ of 腹切り.

>>24458280
I am immediately captured. Please tell me more.

>>24457845
Took a look at Pynchon yesterday. Fucking devastating.

>>24456655
>.zip
>.pdf

>>24456676
Getting "hooked" is so utterly dependent on the subjective that telling writers they need to hook the reader is as helpful as telling them they need to write a good tale.

>>24457772
>>24457845
Embrace Garthdom

>>24458270
>most books sell less than six copies
Wasn't that disproven/misquoted?

>>24457845
At least you know that you how much you need to improve, imagine if you'd stopped reading entirely the moment you decided to focus on writing. You'd have much less of an informed perspective on which of your passages is good and which isn't, and you would lack completely an example of something actually good toward which to aspire.

>>24458411
I half-looked into it using an LLM and tthis is what it spat out
>KristenMcLean of NPD BookScan analyzed a larger, more representative dataset across top publishers and found:

>“14.7percent of … frontlist books … sold under 12 copies”

>Meanwhile, around 51.4percent of those titles sold between 12 and 999 copies — not under 12

>Another source states:

>“93percent of books published (160,000) sell less than 1,000 copies”

>The reality is that book sales follow a long-tail distribution—a few blockbusters push most of the revenue, while many small titles linger at very low sales.

>>24458423
It's legit like sitting at the feet of a master who doesn't care if others follow in his footsteps. If I copy that style, do I have my own? If I borrow his symbols, do I lose my own? I'm no Dunning-Kruger casualty, but it feels like acknowledging a pit exists and finding out it's the Mariana Trench.

I will suffer my beta readers the shit writing I do, I will publish ze novel, but I will do it knowing there are more books written than words in my novel that would serve the reader better.
God help me, for I have received inspiration for yet another novel already

>>24458477
Stop comparing yourself against others loser. You are a unique loser with something original to share with the world. Loser.

>>24458498
At least he knows that he needs to improve. He's a galaxy beyond the retard who thinks he's the next big thing.

Quasar tier hot take: Story > prose

>>24458546
We're all gonna make the next big thing

>>24458551
I'll allow this so long as you're an informed enough person to know that story and plot are not synonymous

>>24458551
Actual reality: story = prose

>>24458556
You don't just get to decide shit like that you fucking retard

First novel is rapidly approaching 30K words. Almost 1/3rd of the way to my total first draft goal. Godspeed in your own works anons.

>>24458558
Luckily I don't need to decide it, it was decided long before any of us were born.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabula_and_syuzhet

I have to write a blog in a travel writing/new journalism style for a class
its about tasting a special kind of noodle
kms myself senpais, I fucking hate new journalism style of writing

>>24458551
That's the religious doctrine of all slop authors, not a hot take. Incredibly stupid tho

>>24458637
>no muh prose
people who emphasize prose usually end up producing overly wordy, lengthy and descriptive slop, and that's a fact
sorry my hot take was a little too spicy for you

>>24458569
We go by the dictionary and thesaurus here, not shit some stuffy fart-sniffing intellectuals came up with to scam the younger versions of themselves into paying to sit through their braindead lectures and buying their waste-of-words books

>>24458647
Your work will forever lack litteraturnost

>>24458648
And I thank God for it daily

>>24458639
People who emphasize plot usually end up making unreadable shit. Shocking, I know. It's not like the choice of an approach will magically make you competent

>>24458651
What a strange thing to say

>>24456455 (OP)
which AI is the best fiction writer?

>>24458680
Me.

>>24458685
You're not an AI, AI can't post on 4chinz, we have a captcha

>>24458692
Do we?

>>24458701
>not using Tomorrow board style
by god.. maybe you are an AI after all

>>24458672
Not as strange as dropping some pseud's idiolect at the end of a sentence like anyone's supposed to know what the fuck you're talking about

>>24458702
For me it's Surf by Nebukazar (OneeChan)

>>24458130
As I said, I think they're only being read by editors, the writers themselves, and friends+family. So I don't think they're relevant. I use them purely as a training ground for my technical skills and the honing of my style. I have no writing community to speak of, I'm not gonna do an MFA, so that's what I have. Every short story I write is more practice

>>24458349
Except yours, for some reason.

>>24458368
Coward. You can always scan the result with Microsoft Defender, if you're so paranoid.

>>24458962
or ignore it like every sane individual

>>24458411
https://slate.com/culture/2024/04/book-sales-publishing-industry-statistics-substack-penguin-lawsuit.html

>>24458964
You don't know what you're missing! And what does sanity have to do with this?

>>24459004
>And what does sanity have to do with this?
it is not sane behavior to click on much less download sketchy links from 4chan

>>24458869
>wants to be a writer
>doesn't care about literature in any way
Curiouser and curiouser

>>24459010
catbox is a well-known file-sharing site, especially on 4chan; it doesn't serve up malware with the files. And you can scan any download with Microsoft Defender, or some other anti-virus program. So why are you still a coward?

>>24459023
any remotely tech literate person knows that just because a file passes a scan doesn't mean it's actually free of viruses. those work predominantly on signatures so if it's novel it won't be detected
>catbox is well known
wtf does this have to do with anything? how well-known a file sharing site is has nothing to do whether the link contains malware lmfao
>why are you still a coward?
i don't give remotely enough of a shit about whatever shitty writing excerpt is probably in that link to risk even a 0.01% chance of infection. post it normally like a non-retard.

>>24459011
Having no desire to clinically dissect something and learn a bunch of obscure jargon for elements of it is not equivalent to not caring about it.

>>24459218
You seem awfully insecure lol

>>24459237
Based projectionist hiding from his intimidation in front of the literal magic altar of literature behind rationalizations

I'm thinking about putting a bookmark on all my readings aside from French audiobooks to focus wholly on my novel for the next few months so I might finish a first draft before fall. Good idea or bad idea?

>“See ya later, Katelyn! Uh, is it alright if I call you Kate?”
>“Most people call me Kitty.”
>“Kitty. Like as in ‘cat?’”
>“Yeah.”
>“Oo, cute and sleek, I like it. You've heard of Hello Kitty, but now it's time for goodbye, Kitty!”
POV: you're me writing the above

>>24459284
Is a lack of time really your issue? Will clearing up those hours actually result in you using them to write?

>>24459237
undoubtedly a projection

>>24459362
but
but i don't write like that
even my earliest dialogue wasn't like this

>>24458427
Like in music and everything else. No surprises here.

>>24458427
You do know even local pizza shops and bakeries have low sales

>>24459378
You'll get there one day lil buddy

>>24457766
What mags/journals do you submit to?

>>24457535
Where's "the line" on graphic sex/violence in a serial killer book? I assume no kids, but beyond that how evil can you make the killer before it hits the ick?

Or do women just get off on it more the worse it is?

Anyone else notice the massive quality increase in /wg/ once the retards made their slop general?

>>24459622
I shit you not, one of the selling points of A Game Of Thrones (book one) was the oodles of rape in it
in fact that was how it was sold to me, by women readers no less

>do women just get off on it more the worse it is?
yes, but not in the way you think
women get off on rape* the same way men get off on apocalyptic zombie outbreaks - the greater the danger, the higher the stakes, the greater the drama. it's the drama that attracts us.
we want to know how Jon Stark is going to deal with the problem of being hated by everyone.
women want to know how Daenerys is going to deal with being a not-mongol warlord's rapewife**.
>*including dubcon, but not including "true" noncon
>**Daenerys and Drogo counts as dubcon, which redeems the relationship in their eyes

so Rape As Plot is a very powerful dramatic tool in a serial killer book
just bear in mind that at no point should the rapist ever be considered worthy of redemption
>I assume no kids
generally a good rule, yes
you have to be very very very good to get away with that
notably, Daenerys is practically a child, only 13, but GRRM uses all kinds of literary tricks to disguise the fact. primarily, since Daenerys behaves more like 23 than 13, women ignore this point

>>24456455 (OP)
There were no above ground nuclear tests in the 80s you moron

>>24459825
p.s. rereading my post I realised I conflated
>dubcon rape in a relationship
and
>noncon rape as plot
I want to clarify that women get off on the former as romantic titillation, but get off on the latter as strictly an antagonistic construct, i.e. to threaten the protagonist and heighten the drama with
you have to be very clear which is carrot and which is stick in this case

>>24459364
Uh, yeah, I guess? Since I stopped doomscrolling YouTube the main things I do with my free time are read, write, and 4chan.

>>24459849
>>24459825
So if I'm writing a, as you put it, "twisted serial killer" novel, I can have the Killer rape and murder one of his investigators, as long as he has Bad End?

FWIW I'm now playing with the idea of a slowly-revealing thriller with POV of the killer and the main detective, where the detective actually is the serial killer and has to do a slow burn investigation of himself until his partner/other detectives start to hone in on him, ending in shot-by-good-guys end. Sorta American Psycho meets The Departed, in /tv/terms (book of AP is better tho). The killer scenes will be brutal and graphic, though I was going to lean more "sadistic murders of targets of opportunity" rather than sexual but somewhat reconsidering it now, and the detective scenes will be "standard" to start, slowly unraveled to reveal he's the killer.

>>24459885
Based. Now get off 4chan, there's nothing useful here.

>>24459898
I vaguely remember one of the rules of mystery novels is to never have the protagonist be the killer, do with that what you will
>Why?
idk

>>24459909
What if the true protagonist isn't the POV character?

Still, good to know. I've got a book and a half to finish line editing before I should actually start another one, so it's mostly academic right now. But the idea intrigues me.

>>24459898
>as you put it, "twisted serial killer" novel
sorry, I should have clarified, I'm NTA

>I can have the Killer rape and murder one of his investigators, as long as he has Bad End?
duh
have you seen the popularity of true crime / serial killer podcasts? they can get pretty graphic, multiplied by the fact that it really happened
sex and gore sells hard
>Headless Body Found In Topless Bar!

>FWIW I'm now playing with the idea of a slowly-revealing thriller with POV of the killer and the main detective, where the detective actually is the serial killer
I'd fucking read that, if it's done well
but can you?

>The Departed
the original chinese film is one of my favourites

>>24459909
>never have the protagonist be the killer
>Why?
because it's very easy to fuck up

>>24459917
>What if the true protagonist isn't the POV character?
in writing, the protagonist is whose POV the book follows
it's so commonly the good guy that most people use the word to mean the good guy
not necessarily
Humbert is the protagonist of Lolita, for example

however, if you're not going for that, then the reader will likely see your book as multi-protagonist, e.g. Game Of Thrones, and that format carries its own rules of structure
you have to be clear which format you're going for and play by its rules

>>24459927
I guess I think of protagonist as "main good guy" rather than the MC, but that's a fair assessment. Either way, I appreciate the responses. I'll give it some more thought and see if I can create an outline I feel good about, then go from there.

>>24459023
Catbox is also well-known for having a problem with brazilians posting illegal porn
Now get the FUCK out of my board, glowie

>>24457845
Do not give up, brother. Advancement is gained through consistent forward progress, nothing else.
>>24456531
I've been uploading on ao3, and after five years of not being able to publish it's been so much fun to get any reaction on my writing by people who actually read it. The comments really motivate me to keep writing there, even though what I'm writing is frankly disgusting rape-focused fanfic of Worm.

>>24459032
Oh, it's definitely shitty writing, and it's much, much larger than an excerpt. But you'll never find out, because you're too much of a frightened little mouse.

>>24459362
Not even remotely original.

>>24460026
>frankly disgusting rape-focused fanfic of Worm.
l-link?

>>24460093
stop framing it like anyone is missing out on anything by not reading your self-admitted 'shitty writing'

>>24459421
Pizzas don't take 6 months to bake. Not even remotely comparable.

>>24459827
>nooooo a silly meme image isn't literally accurate
and who said it was a test?

>>24460105
retard

>>24460099
Not my writing. Literally labeled a "pile of crap".

>>24460118
u know non-nuclear bombs can form mushroom clouds too, right?

>>24460135
cope

>>24460179
u show a remarkable lack of imagination 4 someone that pretends 2 b a writer. let me guess, it's litfic and upper-class Victorian parlor room dramas for u all the way, amirite?

>>24460192
project your insecurities harder

Reading this out of context, does it sound hokey? Does it suffice as genuine character exposition?

>Flanagan reflected on the crew’s morals. It was the possibility that Captain Mortimer’s nonexistence would be more disturbing—that suffering and confinement were more agreeable to a majority of the crew than nonexistence, indicating that the will to life was an inescapable force; that pain was a meaningful part of the human condition. His moral conjecture stemmed from his own experiences. Boxing was his will to life, an escape from nonexistence. What blows and injuries he had endured, both physically and mentally, were necessary, for he needed strength to sustain his current station. Likewise, he acknowledged that the lives of the crew were driven by the thrill of movement and the desire for prosperity, and he recognized in this something inherently new—something uniquely New World that consumed all aboard the Rovina.

>butterflies in the stomach
>air-punch
>chill down the spine
What are your overused first-draft clichés?

>>24460227
>out of context
I can't read your excerpt without the context of you posting it alongside hideous AI art as a cheap way to grab attention. So I won't read it at all.

>>24460242
Damn, that's rough. Forgive me for not being a visual artist, anon.

>that creep who posted obvious malware is still around trying to get people to think it's safe
lmafoo

>>24460246
There would've been nothing to forgive if you had even the slightest confidence in your written work standing out without the aid of hideous AI art as a cheap way to grab attention

>>24459812
No since we still have plenty of LLMfags

>>24459812
I've noticed the opposite

>>24460258
It won't happen again, sorry.

>>24459812
We haven't had a single excerpt in this thread.

>>24460283
fine here

I was gonna post a greentext. I think this hits harder if you just read the whole email exchange. Sorry for the paranoid censorships, I'll reveal my identity if you want but not the producer or the fake screenwriter who leads to the producer

>>24460213
jump further to thinly-sourced conclusions

>>24460242
>seething about AI
Guess you haven't heard about Roko's Basilisk. Remember, with just a little pressure and heat, your corplse can become crude oil, suitable for generating electricity for an advanced AI.

>>24460321
I only got through the first couple of paragraphs. I think after reading the Gormenghast series I can't handle fantasy where the prose isn't extraordinarily inventive anymore and your made-up names in this one like "Templum" are just bland as fuck and a major stumbling block. In fact I looked it up and that particular word is so bland it's actually the name of an investment consultation company

>>24460353
Heh, as a teen I wrote a screenplay and called it Roko's Basilisk even though the narrative bears only a tenuous connection to the thought exercise and is actually just a knockoff Ex Machina

>>24460367
Addendum: I thought it was a made-up word but it's actually Latin. Turns out your piece might be historical fiction and not fantasy. I'll give it another read.

>>24460381
Final thoughts: Eh. I started skimming halfway through. "Blood God" feels like it probably has a TV tropes page, it sounds so cliche.

>>24460094
La mode is all about taking old styles and making them yours

>>24460367
it is fantasy, but takes a lot from history

>>24460283
here's something for you

>>24460428
use the word processor's personal dictionary tool for christ's sake

>>24460451
But I like the red swiggles.

>>24456455 (OP)
Should I write an erotica about a woman being raped by a gargoyle?

>>24460501
What's your target audience?

>>24460455
You won't be able to tell if you spelled your own made-up words wrong

>>24460509
Myself. It's a short story, just to be clear. I wouldn't devote a whole novel to something like that

>>24460532
If your target audience is purely yourself why the FUCK are you asking other people if you should write it?

>>24460553
All of our target audiences are ourselves. Fools who convince themselves they're appealing to an external audience are only actually appealing to their perception of what an external audience wants, which is just a roundabout way of appealing to themselves.

>>24460562
Be that as it may, there's still a massive difference between writing purely for yourself and writing what you perceive others want. Dress up the language and twist words however you want

>>24460553
Soundboarding, mostly. I'll still post it for others to see, if only just because this is the type of story I can only share anonymously

What are the best Youtubers to follow for novel writing advice?

>>24460598
i like this middle aged blonde woman that writes nothing but romantic slop

https://www.youtube.com/@WritingCompellingFiction

>ChatGPT is flattering me again
Stop it.

>>24460598
Behold, the only writing advice video worth a damn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0

>>24460654
yeah, its so fucking cringe, it still does it even after I tried everything to prompt it to be neutral

>>24459906
Aaah yeah you're right. Okay, no more 4chan 'till I've got a first draft under my belt.
This ain't forever, later lovelies

Reminder that literary fiction is just the drama genre. This is not up for debate, I will not be responding to your seething replies.

>>24460703
But "drama" means stageplays?

I hate editing I hate the antichrist I hate editing I hate the antichrist I hate editing

>>24456455 (OP)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PIesKEVoDnJ3xd1QC7mfihhIuZyqmJm7DARzt5KMOuE/edit?tab=t.0

just need some, advice some tips

>>24460884
You dox yourself opening gdocs links, btw

>>24460096
Look up Brother_of_the_Stutterer on ao3. "Corruption" is my favorite.

>>24460584
Not really. AO3 is full of deviant porn stories like that. Search https://archiveofourown.org/ for "gargoyle sex" and see for yourself.

>writing assignment for writing class
>PEER review so everybody will review each others work before final submission
>write mine extra shit with mistakes in it
>people will inevitably give bad feedback on the mistakes I made on purpose
>can fix it without my ego getting bruised
am I devilish?
truthfully I dont give a shit about their feedback anyway

>>24456676
Nobody's going to stop reading just because the first sentence isn't captivating. The title and the first paragraph are both more important.

>>24461007
I thought it defaults to even signed in accounts being anonymous

>>24461007
yea it doesn't

>>24461221
google says you have to be invited for your name to show in the corner. everyone else is anon

>>24460703
>>24460729
Put more precisely, litfic is the "personal drama" genre. Just interpersonal conflict, mostly between rich layabouts.

>>24460428
This makes no fucking sense.

>>24461221
well, I've opened links here before, which were then added to some shared docs collection and I could see everyone's names and emails who opened it.

>>24460428
My favorite part is the ellipses you end with a comma

>>24461512
Weird. Are you sure? From Google's support page:
"Anonymous animals"
If you share or open a file with a link, you may not see the names of people who view it.
People you didn’t invite individually will show as anonymous animals when they’re in the file.
People you invite individually will show by name when they’re in the file.
You can only see other people’s names when you give them individual permission to view a file or if they are part of a mailing list.

Are you misremembering something?

How bad is it?

>>24461530
Fuck.

>>24461554
You need to know proper formatting before you post. Until you learn that, nobody is going to read your writing

>>24461554
enough that i'm not sure if it's bait and thus don't want to explain why

>>24461536
>If you share or open a file with a link, you may not see the names of people who view it.
That's not the issue. They were not visible on the file itself. But in your docs there's a page you have to look up for shared files and when you open a file it's automatically "shared" with you and that page indirectly showed everyone to whom the file was "shared", ie who opened it, as co-authors. I hoped manually removing the file would also remove me from the list, but can't check that myself.

But this was a few years ago and google may have changed how it works later. But I ain't clicking those links again

Writing is like complete mental torture. Not only do you make no money from it, but most people can't even tell if you're making progress. The amount of waiting involved is completely unique to the art form, as it takes years to finish a book, then weeks or maybe months to hear from an agent, then another year to be publish-ready. It's such a slow form of torture.

Okay, so i am done with writing my new adult fantasy novel. now I have to query. All the online guides to query letters say I should Include a section that goes "If you liked THAT novel, youll really like THIS novel." Problem is just: I dont know what my book reads like.
I grew up on my parents' 70s and 80s fantasy novels, like stuff from Terry Brooks, Anne McCaffrey and Alan Dean Foster. Tolkien and Lewis were also a part. I also read a lot of Lovecraft and R.E. Howard, but I still dont think I write like them.
It is a lot more low-fantasy, less of that "we have to save the world from the dark lord" and more of that "we have to survive another day". It isnt necessarily bleak, more light-in-the-darkness stuff, but still brutal, downbeat and full of horror elements.
The target audience would be 18-30 year old men.
Can you tell me what authors are like that so I can I lie a bit on my query letter?

>>24462042
>The target audience would be 18-30 year old men.
you mean the demographic that literally doesn't read?

>>24462065
>you mean the demographic that literally isnt served by the current left-focussed industry
Yes. I know It's not going to be easy, but I care little. I want to write and publish this because I believe more books for these people should be on the shelves.

>>24462068
they aren't on the shelves because people dont read them
which is why you won't get published either. they wont publish what doesnt sell

>>24462042
Sanderson
He sucks but he's popular

>>24462075
>they aren't on the shelves because people dont read them
>which is why you won't get published either.
Yes, i know. I dont care. I'm still gonna try.
>>24462076
now that sounds like solid advice. thanks

What would you guys say is the ratio of hard rejections where they send you a message to the soft rejections where they just don't write back? I'm guessing the soft rejections are at least two times as numerous? Three? Four? Anybody have experience with this?

How does this read? It's a small snippet from a larger conversation, but I feel like it's off

“Most just don’t know what real thirst feels like. They think it’s a lot like hunger, as in you feel uneasy and your stomach grumbles and yer pissed off just by default.”

Gaber made the last of her statement with an upturn of the right of her mouth and sneered out the words with derision.

“Ain’t like that at all. It’s much worse than that. Three days without a drop of water and you’re an animal. You hate in new ways and want blood to drink. You wrench out the moisture from your socks and you suck on ‘em to not leave anything to waste, and you can’t say the letter “L” hardly at all cuz’ it pulls at the dry roof of your mouth so much that it chafes.”

A short silence passed and Gaber’s eyes went unfocused as she peered beyond her interlocutor, staring holes through him at some undefined point.

“You learn real quick who’s strong and who’s weak.”

Another silence. Her knuckles were white with tension, save those of her absent pinky and ring finger on her right hand, and her eyes had gone glassy, twin pools of melancholic blue on an otherwise weathered face that exuded that vitality exclusive to those who’ve lived hard during hard times. Then, in a sudden flash of anger, she spoke once more, her cool blue eyes focusing to needle points and her countenance drawn up in a mask of barely suppressed rage.

“You find that fucker and you stick him in his guts. You let him see all his insides on his outsides for me. And if you kill him easy and you had a say in how he went, I’m going to find you instead, you get me?”

>>24456455 (OP)
How accurate is this for designing an MC?

>>24462378
I'd say it's pretty decent
phrases like
>just by default
don't really fit the voice though, to me
maybe:
>They think it's like hunger, where you're uneasy and your stomach grumbles and yer pissed off for no reason at all.
the continuation also feels awkward with the two 'that's
>"It ain't. It's much worse. Three days without a drop of water, you're an animal."
I could clean the rest up too with little tweaks desu, this could use a closer editing pass in general. but the core is solid

>I feel like it's off
I don't.

>>24461733
Maybe you're not cut out to be a writer. Personally, I find writing to be cathartic. When I finish, I feel an immense sense of relief. Whether I "publish" it through Amazon KDP, or just by posting it online, I feel a sense of completion. It doesn't make me any money yet, but everything I write is like a lotto ticket; someone out there with money might care, and then everything changes.

>>24462448
That's not a design guide, that's seething sarcasm.

I havent read a book since back in high school and the only trash I read was R.L Stine. However, I routinely write disgusting smut for people in /trash/. Do I have a chance, bros?

What program do you guys use? Since I'm no longer a student I lost access to microsoft word

>>24462701
https://www.google.com/search?q=alternatives+to+microsoft+word
LibreOffice Writer is at the top of the list.

>>24460321
This is amazing.

>>24456676
>>24456758
>it wouldn’t be a Tuesday at investi corp without the body of a rookie failure staining the pavement and, wouldnt you know it, just as I exited for the day I got to watch Deiter Hovland from accounting explode like a Hawaiian Punch-filled water balloon right outside the revolving door.

How many words did you anons write today?
I got 900 in today... I feel like I'm moving at a snail's pace.

>>24462785
0

>>24462701
if you write long works and need organization badly buy scrivener or pirate it
google docs is fine otherwise. no need to overcomplicate things

How do I write fantasy with sovl?

>>24462895
By not reading fantasy

>>24462944
This is the most important thing. Get your ideas from OUTSIDE the genre you work in, always. This is the only way to keep it fresh and interesting.

>>24462944
>>24462950
I knew to do this albeit

I want to write fun, laidback fantasy where the characters and readers can all have fun, but everything I write turns into a fucking blood meridian with an impending sense of doom, where everyone is miserable, the jokes make you cry, and it feels like someone's going to die soon. No matter wht I try, that's what it turns to

>>24462988
The next step is to incorporate observations you make of genuine human interactions

>>24462993
There is a reason why being a writer is like being stripped naked in front of everyone.

>>24462995
In what sense do you mean

>>24463024
Well like when I was younger I noticed how my dad would do this fake laugh when he wanted to get my attention, like he didn't call to me but he'd "laugh" so I'd get curious about what was so funny. Shit like that. Observations of what people do. Then you take it an apply it to your work somehow.

>>24462701
I use Google Docs even though I have MS Word
the only drawback with GDocs is that my potato computer can't handle documents >10k words

>>24462728
I have tried Libre
it's not bad but doesn't beat GDocs

>>24463043
>it's not bad but doesn't beat GDocs
Wtf they do exactly the same shit, only libre allows for actual customization

>>24463052
>customization
you don't need fancy shit to get the job done
writers in the past have written millions of words with pen and paper
Asimov wrote, what, a thousand short stories and several textbooks on a typewriter

Google Docs is my preferred go-to because the UI is clean and simple, it is synced in real time so you don't even need to remember to Ctrl + S (a reflex movement back in the day, for those of you old enough to remember) AND it is free

I write in notepad

>>24463058
>you don't need fancy shit to get the job done
On the contrary, you can remove features to make the UI extremely minimalistic and lightweight. That's what customization means. You can do whatever the hell you want with it. Which gdocs doesn't allow.
>you don't even need to remember to Ctrl + S
What software doesn't have adjustable auto-save and backups in this day and age?
>AND it is free
As is libre office. AND, best of all, it doesn't shit itself if your internet connection has hiccups, being purely local, and won't steal your data and use it to train AI models. Unlike gdocs. Now, I accept your surrender.

>>24463062
My brother died like this

>>24463066
story?
also proof. an outline.

>>24463071
There is no story, it's a just a meme from ylilauta.

>>24463065
>you can remove features to make the UI extremely minimalistic and lightweight
well, not being a programmer, that wastes a lot of time for me, whereas I'm quite happy with Gdocs in full screen mode
>adjustable auto-save and backups
not to the cloud, however, which is what I want
sure, you can probably get another software to sync and cloud backup your work, but that's extra work
>doesn't shit itself if your internet connection has hiccups
you can work offline with Gdocs too
>won't steal your data and use it to train AI models
this is a fair point, but my writing isn't that worth stealing and when I publish it it'll be stolen anyway
>Now, I accept your surrender.
No, you were a little premature there, laddie. But I think you're quite familiar with that little problem too.

>>24463095
I see you're digging yourself deeper into that weird bunker of making things harder on yourself while pretending it's easier, like some out-of-touch mac user, but that's not a hill I want to conquer anymore. You can keep it.

>>24463122
>like some out-of-touch mac user
That's over the line, sir.
Apologise.

>>24462728
I was gonna do this but I'm just checking for alternatives
>>24463043
>>24462794
Do you guys google docs on a browser or do you use a download?

>>24463188
browser
there isn't a desktop programme for Gdocs

oh yeah, another advantage of Gdocs is that I can review my work on my phone, and make minor edits
my brother does more work on Gdocs on his phone than I do, but my work needs to cross-reference many PDFs and spreadsheets so I can't
useful for quick edits however, and for creative writing

>>24462701
Dropbox version of microsoft online, since I write also on the go on my phone. I dunno if you need a license for that.

>>24462794
>>24463043
The problem with Google Docs is you're relying on Google to store your work. If they have an outage, get hacked, or decide your work is "problematic", then poof, away it goes.
>>24462993
Sounds like readers would find your work engaging! Without conflict and setbacks, you're not writing fiction, you're writing a travelogue, and that puts people to sleep.

>>24463308
>If they have an outage, get hacked, or decide your work is "problematic", then poof, away it goes
absolutely a good point
to adapt a cryptocurrency saying, "not your storage = not your files"
which is why I store manually-downloaded (not auto-synced) offline backups of my own

back in the dark days before cloud computing, we had no-one to rely on to back shit up for us. I personally have not forgotten the methods we used then, e.g. rolling daily backups, and backups on at least 2 physically-separated media

the difference in my workflow now is that I work online and backup offline; during the 00s/10s transitionary period, it was the reverse.

Finished a first draft of my novel, but it's only 34k words. What are my options?

>>24463344
>novel
>34k words
it's a novella
>What are my options?
novellas are way harder to get published than novels, so get ready to stuffer

>>24463322
>rolling daily backups, and backups on at least 2 physically-separated media
I still do that. My concern over my work getting deleted for being "problematic" is still an issue.

>>24463344
Either accept the length or expand the scenes to turn it into a proper novel. Read it in as if you were telling to someone and you'll probably notice that some parts will feel too rushed and expand those.

>>24463344
pork it up to at least 55k

>>24463526
>>24463361
>>24463349
Is 40k acceptable? I really don't think it needs another 20,000 words of faff

>>24463738
Do whatever you want, man. It's not going anywhere

>>24463738
>Is 40k acceptable?
It'll still be a novella. 50k is generally the minimum, and a standard novel is 70-90k
>I really don't think it needs another 20,000 words of faff
Don't. that's how you get a really shitty book

>>24463355
how problematic IS your work anyway?
unless you're writing a literal Mein Kampf 2.0 or Lolita Does Lollapalooza, you shouldn't need to go all McAfee

>>24462701
Learn to use a text editor

>>24463876
^This but unironically.
Use Markdown, it's simple. Then use pandoc (from docker) to convert markdown to word for your editor and pdf for publishing.
Bonus points: Use git as well. If you f*cked up, you could revert to a previous version of your novel at any time.
> t. TeX enjoyer.

>>24464027
>Markdown
i find markdown retarded, but to each his own

>>24464027
Why would you jump these pointless and retarded tech hoops, when you could just use a normal text editor like a sane human being?

>>24464176
You can lead the horse to water

>>24464268
what is the benefit of using markdown

How am I a less productive writer sober than I ever was as a pothead? That makes no fucking sense.

>>24464271
none

>>24459610
any I can find where my writing can theoretically fit in. I obviously don't bother with ones like The New Yorker or any such titans. I'm completely new to writing, began this year. So far I managed to get in to mainly indie mags without prestige, but it's still something. I'm sitting at 16 stories accepted so far, but my confidence in my writing is still extremely shakey.

>>24463804
I never know. I'm pretty blackpilled. There's also the spectre of "presentism", where something I wrote becomes a problem according to "new" thinking. I'd rather just opt out.

>>24464027
Nice! I used to post this advice quite often, but it seemed like it was ignored. Of course, we're dealing with people who can barely use a cell phone, so yeah.
>>24464099
>>24464271
Markdown/pandoc is great. You can use the standard Markdown extensions "fenced_divs" and "bracketed_spans" to implement named paragraph styles and named character styles respectively. Then you can export that to a word processor format, e.g. LibreOffice Writer, as well as directly to HTML, and the formatting comes out right in both cases. Also, Markdown, being a text format, integrates really well with git, giving one the ability to diff versions of documents.

>get in the habit of submitting stories to journals
>already sent work to 350+ journals
>get used to rejections, don't take them personally
>score some wins, some approval
>think I got the hang of it - steady climb from here on out
>this one fucking journal run by POC/LGBTQ/marginalized brown people keeps rejecting my work
>one rejection came 13 minutes after my submission of a 2k word story
>pisses me off to no end despite it just being ONE journal run by people I wouldn't dare associate with irl

>>24464455
Keep submitting Anon. Everyone by now is aware that the publishing industry is a closed system run by a select few for their benefit.
Keep pushing and find others.

>>24464455
>350+ journals
can't believe there are even that many

>>24464790
there aren't even 350 people that read journals lol

>>24462596
idk those characters sound kind of based at times

How does one build up well to a moment like picrel?

>>24464843
How long is a piece of string?

>>24464843
a common enemy. I suggest aliens.

>>24456455 (OP)
Writing formula from Lester Dent, the creator of pulp adventure series Doc Savage.

>>24464850
A more expanded discussion of the same topic.

I write slop and even I dont lower myself to formulas

>>24464938
Its just a guideline/advice. If you don't need I'll be the first to pat you on your head for being such a good boy.

>>24464947
it just feels so soulless to follow some preset outline

>>24464949
Useful for when people get writers block. Guidelines can be good for getting the creativity flowing. They dont have to be followed like rules.

>>24464949
Then expand upon it as you go. Seriously, do you have an imagination or not?

>>24464963
the dude advocating for following a writing formula is telling me I have no imagination. fascinating

>>24462993
I know how you feel. My stories devolve into a Japanese comedy with a strong underlying stench of fart porn of the main girl.

>>24464455
>this one fucking journal run by POC/LGBTQ/marginalized brown people keeps rejecting my work
why do you even bother lmao
>>24464455
>submitting stories to journals
academic journals? but why

>>24464824
the good ones ARE interesting

>>24464850
>>24464875
is there one such guide for novels?
because I can see that working for a 6000 word short, but not a 120,000 word novel

>>24464997
Anon, there is an entire market for "how to write".
But you know what? Just write :^)

>>24463308
>Sounds like readers would find your work engaging!
Most of the time, they tell me they're too anxious to keep reading. If you like the characters, you don't want to see something horrible happen to them.

>>24463876
What do you mean by text editor? What would you call google docs and word?

>>24464447
>to implement named paragraph styles and named character styles respectively
You mean, the stuff that every real software does straight out of the package without a single line of code?

I'll never be respected as a writer because I want to write about things like a werewolf vampire or a police force that, instead of using guns, using octopi that they carry around in glass jars full of water on their hips.

>>24465407
Please explain how octopi help stop crime

>>24465418
Instead of shooting bullets, they shoot ink which can blind, mark, or make the criminals slip over. You could also throw the octopus at the criminal and let it do its crime fighting thing from there. You must understand that these would be trained crime fighting octopi. Also, since they can camouflage themselves, you could set them up somewhere like a trap.

>>24465423
And these wouldn't be weak octopi either, they'd shoot with the force of a paintball gun, maybe even a bit stronger.

>>24465426
I'm not seeing a problem with this, write it please.

>>24465427
The problem is that no one would take it seriously, just like my werewolf vampire idea.

>>24465429
But fuck it, I'll just write it for myself. Also, thank you for liking my idea, anon, that makes me happy.

>>24465431
The truth is, ideas don't matter, only the execution.

>>24465434
Alright, I'll do my best. Now I just need to figure out how to write a story more than 10 pages long.

>>24465435

>>24465448
Ayo dat's big foot right there

>>24464971
I didn't advocate anything; I merely offered an option for anyone that wished to make use of it. You have an oddly black-and-white viewpoint for someone who pretends to be a writer. Did you just come here to pick fights?

>>24464997
"Techniques For The Selling Writer" is about novels, but if you're looking for something specifically about expanding ideas from short-story size to novel size, I recommend starting with the "snowflake" method: https://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/articles/snowflake-method/

>>24465293
I would call those word processors.
>>24465357
Yes, and pandoc would qualify as real software. Also, did you miss how Markdown, being text-based, integrates well into version-control, making it easy to see the differences between different versions of your fiction, in a way that word-processor documents don't support? Feel free to not take my advice–that's fine with me–but what's the value of missing the point entirely and picking fights over it?

>>24465616
>see the differences between different versions of your fiction
I'm not demented, I know what I've changed in what I wrote

>>24464875
>>24464850
>>24465608
Take your brainless formulaic money-focused writing to the slop thread, please and thank you.

>>24465407
You'll be respected as a writer if you succeed at making something people actually want to read. You sound like you believe you'll only get "respect" if you conform to styles that are several centuries out of date, such at litfic. Why do you feel this way?

Do people really need to have the perfect set up of computer, sitting area, weather, time, drink, food, the shape and height of a desk to start writing something?

>>24465608
read about snowflake method probably a decade ago
it's useful to get plotbuilding started, but needs to be paired with a proper plot arc imho

anyway, thanks, will give "Techniques For The Selling Writer" a look

>>24465624
>I never make mistakes, I have a perfect memory, and I never collaborate with others
You're a phony & you can't even convincingly disguise it.

>>24465645
No

>>24465645
Why would anything have to be perfect? Just shoot for "good enough".

>>24465625
Sure, because if you read pulp-fiction advice, you can only ever produce pulp-fiction as a result. You can't possibly pick and choose elements of it, incorporate it into your own style and workflow, and make it your own. No, your only option is to follow it to the letter, without deviation. Seriously, anon, all you're doing is projecting your own robotic mindset.

>>24465668
I literally could not care less what some formula-following retard says. Go to your slop thread

>>24464875
>book on how to write this or that
>the author is a nobody or a hack
EVERY. FUCKING. TIME.

>>24465703
In this case it's the fact it's a book on writing with a literal dollar sign in the title. Go kys
I do wonder why anyone would read books on writing from failed authors when resources on writing from successful authors exist, though

>>24465727
Because they want to make money not literature.

>>24465735
>I do wonder why anyone would read books on writing from failed authors when resources on writing from successful authors exist, though
>Because they want to make money not literature.
If they want to make money they should listen to advice from successful authors you fucking moron

>>24465693
>I dislike one perceived aspect of you
>Therefore I hate everything about you
You spend a lot of time by yourself, don't you.

>>24465703
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_Swain
Dwight Swain, after a successful writing career, joined the staff of the successful Professional Writing Program of the University of Oklahoma, training writers of commercial fiction and movies. He pioneered scripting documentaries and educational/instructional movies using dramatic techniques, rather than the previously common talking heads.
In November 1991, Swain was inducted into the Oklahoma Professional Writer's Hall of Fame.
>a 4chan nobody seething about someone successful
EVERY. FUCKING. TIME.

>>24465864
>perceived
literally not perceived, you suggested a formula, lmao. way to distance yourself
>i hate everything about you
and again. way to create a strawman you disingenuous fuck. you might be fine irl, but because you would even associate with formulaic writing, I don't care what you have to say about the craft. and this is the writing general, so I want you gone
Stay in your slop thread

>>24465735
Everything you consider "literature" was popular and lucrative in the time it was created. If it wasn't, you would have never heard of it. There were plenty of other books written in that time, but you'll never know about any of them, only the popular/lucrative ones. Did you seriously not realize that?

>>24465872
If you actually read what I wrote, you would have seen that the idea was to pick and choose elements of it, incorporate it into your own style and workflow, and make it your own. Again, all you're doing is projecting your own robotic mindset.

>>24465872
>I jumped to conclusions and associated you with formulaic writing
>Therefore that's the only thing you could possibly be interested in
>One has to accept such rules wholesale without question, not pick and choose elements of it, incorporate it into your own style and workflow, and make it your own, that simply can't be done
Literal Dunning-Kruger effect.

>>24465869
>after a successful writing career
omg you literally slipped this in. the wikipedia article doesn't even say this. a new low, swaincuck
>succesful writing career
Dwight V Swain's most popular piece of fiction, according to goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12569920-henry-horn-s-x-ray-eye-glasses

seriously what's your deal? why do you fellate swain like this

>>24465879
>>24465886
As I said, I couldn't give a shit about anything someone who even associates with writing formulas have to say. Cry more and write your soulless slop trash that will never be read. GO TO YOUR SLOP THREAD

>>24465889
>>24465891
>more seething and jumping to thinly-supported conclusions
Enjoy being miserable.

>>24465642
>Why do you feel this way?
Because I can see which writers get respect and which ones don't, and the ones who do don't write about the sort of stuff that I mentioned.

>>24465899
Project harder

>>24465901
Not once in this discussion have I shown any sort of misemotion, while you've been a seething wreck the entire time. You truly lack self-awareness. And to think you actually believe you'll produce "art". You'll be lucky to produce anime porn slop.
>>24465910
>Be miserable
Thanks, I'd rather not. Good luck being relevant in any way whatsoever.

>Start writing a novel for the first time
>Don't have reader friends I can ask for feedback and non readers just give empty encouragement
>Can't share it here because it's literally gay so it'll mostly be shitposted without feedback on the writing quality
How the hell do people get feedback on their work. Do you really have to just trust your own instincts for quality or hire an (((editor)))?

>>24465923
Oh you misunderstand. I posted that pic to poke fun at the jackasses in these threads who do nothing but attack writers who write stuff for people to enjoy.

>>24460607
>that writes nothing but romantic slop
lol. u a coomer, shill, or genuinely prefer her to the published authors who upload? id genuinely be interested in why you chose her even if its just her voice or something completely unrelated to writing because then it'd at least make sense to me

>>24465924
>Can't share it here because it's literally gay
Unironically look for a writing subreddit or discord

>writing transgressive fiction and using ChatGPT as a means of proof reading and critique
>write some really dark and edgy stuff and the bot gives high praise
>it draws the line when I depict an age gap relationship and says it’s unethical


If that’s what an AI thinks of my work, I wonder what publishers will think.

>>24465946
I'm too chuddy for those to not inevitably kick me out, guess I'll just have to wing it

>>24465960
Just don't be a sperg or simply stop writing gay shit

>>24465960
does it feature keats?

i had enough time to write like 6 novels, but i didnt and now i have to wage again

>>24465989
Bold of you to assume that you wouldn't have had to wage again if you did write those six novels.

>>24465924
If you can't find someone willing to be your editor for free (e.g. another writer, or your girlfriend), then yes, you have to pay. Another reason you have to pay because you don't have a girlfriend.

>>24466012
so thats why rothfuss is taking so long

>>24466021
According to his Wikipedia article, his publisher hasn't seen a word written by him since 2014, despite having already paid in advance for the next book. So it sounds like he's more of a lazy scam artist than a writer.

>>24466027
i was attempting to reference the theory of his gf/ex wife being the driving force for the early works, but his many unfinished projects for which he's collected payment don't contradict you

>>24465930
Fair enough.

>>24465900
You'll also get respect if your stuff is popular and leaves you not wanting for money. For example, do you really think Andy Weir gives two shits about any detractors?

>>24466077
Does Weir write really weir(d) stuff or does he just write regular sci-fi?

>>24466087
See? My point exactly. I'm positive he could give two shits about your seething opinion.

Is it okay to post an excerpt here?

>>24466405
Alright creep, you crossed the line. Five years in the iso cubes.

>>24466405
Yes; other people, earlier in the thread, have done so. But don't expect much more than seething about spelling and punctuation.

>>24466421
I don't even see that anymore
more than at any point in the years I've been in /wg/, people literally do not give feedback beyond something like "it's bad" with no elaboration
the joke of /wg/ being a containment thread is genuinely true recently, wtf happened

>>24466475
It's been an unironic containment thread for a while. Many people who actually write something longer than a single paragraph decamped for /wng/. Can't blame them.

>>24466583
>wng
what's that?

>>24466857
the containment thread for the containment thread

>>24466857
White niggers general

>>24466857
>>>/lit/wng/ since you're apparently completely incapable of making an effort or having a clue

>>24466997
>>24466997
>>24466997

wow, look at this pile of crap: https://files.catbox.moe/d9sukc.zip
and these bundles of joy: https://files.catbox.moe/aw9gz2.pdf https://files.catbox.moe/rpuvnd.pdf