Thread 24511907

he's a cultural christian now

>>24511907 (OP)
Taught an entire generation of pseuds that morality doesn't exist because you can call an idea "silly" like "it's silly that God thinks it's wrong if I masturbate" as if you are approaching the issue from some universally understood neutral ground where a thing can be silly for a reason other than it being outside of your current preconceptions which are not the default. He is refuted by the consequences of his own popularity.

>>24511917
is he really

I've not kept up

wow

>>24511928
Culture has entered the chat

>>24511947
well yeah let's be real protestant christianity is the best religion for an agonstic/atheist

>>24511952
of course, atheists love to protest, makes sense.

>>24511917
>>24511928
>>24511947
>>24511952
>>24511983
Dawkins has been saying this for decades.
On December 10, 2007 he said:
>I do think we are culturally a Christian country. I call myself a cultural Christian.

The debate between him and Peterson was so pointless. It was just Peterson doing his 2deep4u 25 levels of abstraction stuff, but also Dawkins completely refusing to think about anything in any way other than completely literally.
Peterson was talking about humanity using dragons guarding some kind of treasure in ancient stories across cultures as a metaphor for adversity and the need for us to fight and face peril in order to achieve our goals, and Dawkins was just going
>but dragons aren't real
like a fucking retard. Literal "but I did have breakfast today" level thinking.

>>24512209
>>but dragons aren't real
>like a fucking retard. Literal "but I did have breakfast today" level thinking.
he has a no bullshit attitude which I appreciate

Plato would agree, fuck sophists

>>24512228
plato's filtered by homer

>>24512232
homer was filtered by gilgamesh

>>24512209
based, what ifs are for pussy bitches who have breakdowns on camera

>>24512209
Based Dawkins for not playing into one of those petersonian free-association rambles, as if they mean anything significant. Woah, metaphors exist? Stories about monsters might be moral tales? Omg Dr Peterson you blew my mind I'm literally crying from profundity!

>>24511907 (OP)
retard.

>https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v28/n20/terry-eagleton/lunging-flailing-mispunching
Dawkins was BTFO'd by an article that starts off with an "Imagine..." shit post, lol.

>>24512209
Dawkins "Religion is dumb and its metaphor are cringe."
Peterson "But what about my sick dragon metaphor?"

If that idiot was less into designing his future tacky suits in his head, he could have argued that Dawkins, by referring to himself as a "cultural Christian", is recognizing the importance of religion itself as a civilization scaffolding and that you can’t get rid of it without getting rid of civilization itself. À thing that Peterson himself preach.
They both hate postmodernism, and Peterson could have argued that atheism just lead to that.

In a few years Dawkins is going to champion secular Anglicanism. And how the religion he happened to be born into is the only civilized one.

>>24511907 (OP)
To respond to your question: he’s a refutation to himself.

I’m an atheist myself and I know how those kind of guy turn later in life. Going to preach things that will be a pain in the ass for people like me.

>>24511907 (OP) It's so easy to refute atheists... yet you always come back claiming you are irrefutable, so what is the use of paying attention to you? No use at all. You just ignore logic because, first you cannot reason, and second because your goal is to make people waste their times as you waste yours.

>>24511917
He always was, and what he basically means is that he still does normal shit like celebrate Christmas.

>>24512228
>he has a no bullshit attitude which I appreciate
Because you're an edgy redditor cunt. Glad you gave us the miserable void we live in today though, disgusting nihilist.

>>24512228
>>24512260
>>24512266
>>24512532
>using a metaphor is... le bad
Go back to /his/, faggot trannies.

>>24512209
Yeah, Dawkins is a notorious retard.

>>24512209
>Peterson was talking about humanity using dragons guarding some kind of treasure in ancient stories across cultures as a metaphor for adversity and the need for us to fight and face peril in order to achieve our goals
This is the dumbest shit I've ever heard, it's embarrassing that Peterson was ever put in a room with other talking heads, only the lowest IQ niggers and autists think he's anything other than a nobody out of his depth giving pretentious platitudes to confuse people into thinking he's intelligent

>>24512228
But couldn't pretending to be retarded for whatever number of years Dawkins is active also be considered a form of sophism? Unless he's not pretending, lmao.

>>24513841
>pretending to be retarded for whatever number of years Dawkins is active also be considered a form of sophism

In English please

will always have my respect for calling out islam unlike his pussy fellow travellers

>>24513853
>Sam Harris called out islam
>Hitchens called out islam

>>24513441
well, why is it called a major work? explain.

>>24513877
Because it filters retards, apparently.
>>24513852
Read slowly and vocalize. It's not my problem your language is built for simple cowboy wisdom sentences and BBC.

>>24513425
>this is the reading comprehension of petersonfags
WASH! THY PENIS!! BUCKO!!!

>>24511907 (OP)
>Equates atheists being brave enough to be atheist to coming out of the closet

>>24513905
15 years ago it was like that in america I guess

>>24513913
It was, but even back then it could only be sincerely said by the most self important people alive.

>>24511907 (OP)
The refutation is that he's going to die hearing the Moslem call to prayer, bitterly regretting that he stuck a knife in the back of his own cultural religion with poor faith arguments and pedantic sophistry.

>>24514099
>poor faith arguments
someone's butthurt

>>24511907 (OP)
Has he made an argument yet or is he still doing the new atheist thing?

>>24514540
he has been making arguments since 1976 retard

here's your public intellectual bro

>>24513900
You're a braindead illiterate moron, kys.

>>24514732
I hate humanist cucks.

>>24513877
Dawkins is obviously filtered by metaphor, anon. If you don't know why Kafka's most well-known book is considered a major work you shouldn't be posting on a literature board.

>being a materialist
>in 2025

Christ is King

>>24514732
this is what redditors consider a genius lmao

Atheists are angry, former Christians. Agnostics are former atheists who've calmed down and realized it's okay for mysteries to exist.
Found-again religious people are either cucked or coping. The latter is respectable if holding onto belief in a higher power is what is keeping you from jumping off a skyscraper.

>>24515329
>le atheists are bad but if you seek alternatives you are le cuck
fuck off, jew.

>>24511907 (OP)
He still remains an ignoramus of the 00s atheist culture pop icons without anything original. His argument for that side is no different than the bible's you shall not have any god before me:
> My science text books tell me so.
> My bible says its so.
Don't see a difference in either argument.

>>24515407
How can I be Jewish when I'm so anti-semetic and everyone knows it, that I wrap Christmas presents in Star of David wrapping paper?
The Saturn cube is not your friend. When your time comes, DO NOT follow the light.
Hitler's body was never found.
6 million Jews didn't exist in the 1930s.
Atheists are Jewish tools to push degeneracy.
Get on my level, wannabe schizo.

>>24515479
>schizo is when I'm not a vindictive tranny that shits on everyone for seeking a spiritual path divorced from atheistic nihilism

>>24515487
God might be real

>>24512209
It's dumb to actually not believe that God exists and redefine God existing as "a society who believes in God will be better off." Anyone who uses language in clear ways should be forgiven for being flabbergasted by Peterson's word games.

>do you believe in the Bible?
>the Bible is a hyperlinked library of wisdom across centuries. It’s not a book you simply “believe in.”
>so you don't take it literally?
>literalism is a modern distortion. Stories operate on multiple planes of reality.
>you're avoiding the question.
>i’m challenging its premises.
>are you saved?
>i think the idea of salvation is psychological, social, and metaphysical.
>so you're not saved?
>i'm working on aligning myself with the Logos.
>is that a yes?
>it's a process, not a status.
>do you believe in Heaven and Hell?
>we live them out psychologically. Every day.
>that’s not what the Bible says.
>well, the Bible isn’t a manual. It’s a narrative architecture of meaning.
>are you afraid of going to Hell?
>i’m more afraid of becoming the kind of person who belongs there.
>do you think atheists can be moral?
>hat depends what you mean by “moral,” and whether they're standing on borrowed ethical capital.
>borrowed from what?
>from Judeo-Christian metaphysics. From millennia of cultural evolution.
>so they’re moral, but for the wrong reasons?
>they’re moral, but they don’t know why.
>so you’re better than them?
>no, but I may be more aware of the foundations.
>so why not just say you're a Christian?
>because I’m not willing to trivialize that claim.
Fedoras mad.

>>24515667
Damn dude youre holy… HOLY CRINGE

>>24511907 (OP)
he's refuted nightly by my out of body experiences thoughbeitever

>>24514732
oh wow that's bad

>>24511927
Typical, you have absolutely no idea what Dawkins actually advocates for. He does put forward morality, but real morality, that is to say, a framework of fairness which benefits all participants and encourages voluntary buy-in. What CANNOT be considered "morality" is mere automatic deference to an invented authority. What religion puts forward is not morality, it is just unthinking blind obedience.

>>24512209
Dawkins was based here though, because Peterson uses his little metaphors with absolutely zero regard to boundaries. In one moment he will say dragons represent predatory animals, but in the next breath say they represent any challenge, even minor inconveniences. When you do this, the metaphor no longer has any meaning at all.

>>24512486
>God is the architect of existence, the pinnacle of morality and wisdom
>Also tons of stuff in his creation happen that he doesn't like
>After thousands and thousands of years of stuff happening that he didn't like, he finally created himself as a person and got tortured to death
>This fixes some of the problems, but only if you telepathically tell him you accept the human sacrifice he made of himself to himself
>This is very profound theology that you just can't comprehend
Religious people are always self parody lol

>>24512532
>he could have argued that Dawkins, by referring to himself as a "cultural Christian", is recognizing the importance of religion itself as a civilization scaffolding
It does no such thing. The most important parts of "civilization scaffolding" comes from Greek philosophy which Christianity poached and is now trying to pass off as its own intrinsic product. Keep the philosophy, dump the religious nonsense, and your civilization scaffolding would be more robust and useful.

>>24513061
>It's so easy to refute atheists
So easy you neglected to do it apparently

>>24515321
>Have the highest IQ
>Realize some cultist will pay you money to make a tweet
>???
>Profit
And the mindless rabble will lap it up lol

>>24516061
>fedora tipper can't understand narrative and parrots shallow nonsense like a retarded angsty teenager who thinks he has it all figured out
Every time, lol.

>>24515667
Imagine referring to "borrowed ethical capital" while claiming Judeo-Christian foundations and ignoring the Greek philosophy underpinning your own position.

>>24516089
>Literally zero response
>Usual coping and seething
kek

>>24516092
>Literally zero response

>>24516095
>Still no response
lmao

>>24516105
The response is that you're parroting nonsense everyone has heard a million times and deluding yourself into believing it's indicative of insight. The reality is that people far smarter than yourself have thought much more deeply about the subject matter to which you superficially allude by parroting others and, thereby, you're worthy of ridicule.

>>24516124
You can't just appeal to the authority of some vague smart people who thought about theology a lot. Did this really sound like a convincing argument to you? The narrative of God being a Supreme Being, but also fashioning a world that falls into such corruption and evil that he decides to flood it to destroy it (but then decides to allow some humans to live anyway, which continues the fallen world), and then later hatches a plan to incarnate himself as a human so that by the power of a human sacrifice of himself to himself then it will somehow confer salvation onto people who accept it is an absolutely ridiculous narrative and is indefensible. Point out how I am misrepresenting the narrative, or defend it as it is, but enough of this hand waving nonsense about how some pastor told you smart people agree this is the most profound truth in the universe.

>>24516124
Not exactly an own to point out that some of the best minds of history got caught chasing their tails trying to resolve obvious failings of internal cohesion.

>>24516145
>You can't just appeal to the authority
I'm not. I'm pointing out the fact that what you're parroting is glaringly reductive and bringing to attention the fact that what you've deluded yourself into thinking of as "your" take isn't indicative of thoughtfulness.

>>24516161
Right, and some of the greatest minds in history also fawn over Hinduism, Islam, and esoteric Paganism, am I also supposed to give reverence to alchemy just because Isaac Newton dedicated huge portions of his time to the idea that he could transform base metals into gold? Anon, geniuses routinely believe in manifestly false things and misallocate their time in that way, add in the all-too-human trait of death anxiety and of course such people will construct elaborate coping systems to avoid the inevitable fact that consciousness runs its course and ends in oblivion. I am not being reductive, I am not "parroting", I am simply pointing out the fact that these mystical fables are just that, stories people made up to make themselves feel better. Stop repeating the same tired lines and try thinking for yourself on this matter.

>>24516474
>accuses someone of making an appeal to authority when there wasn't one
>comes back with an actual appeal to authority the very next post
Lol

>>24516490
My post outlines how "great minds" have spoken in favor of many points of view, I am not appealing to you to just believe whatever Einstein said, I mean, good lord, my post even contains the advice to think for yourself and yet you still have a one track mind of "authority!"

>>24516490
>"You're worthy of ridicule because smarter people than you have believed differently"
>NOT AN APPEAL TO AUTHORITY!
>"Smart people have come to all kinds of different conclusions so you should take everything into account and think for yourself"
>APPEAL TO AUTHORITY!!!
Kindly never post again

>>24516520
>You're parroting reductive nonsense we've all heard 1000 times and you should reflect on the fact it doesn't indicate insight
>APPEAL TO AUTHORITY!
Lol.

>>24516562
Anon, you just keep embarrassing yourself

>>24516577
>(You)

>>24516080
>let's pay every culture en human history and everyone intelligent to say there are demons and gods

>>24511907 (OP)
>god helps me with a touchdown and avoiding a falling tree
>god ignores the cries of help from abused children
Theists who believe in a good, just, loving god have no issue with this

>>24518546
>thanking God when you recognize what's good in the world
>expecting bad things will never happen
Not the same, retard.

>>24516027
Dawkin's morality is an invented authority and necessitates unthinking and blind obedience from some or begrudging obedience from others to ensure that the people who matter (you) can enjoy mindless pleasure until you turn into a bloated corpse.

>>24516069
There is virtually nothing greek or philosophocal about modern culture.

>>24516474
>Anon, geniuses routinely believe in manifestly false things
Yes, like Dawkins.
>misallocate their time in that way
You are assuming that there is a true way to allocate your time. My guess is that you think it involves just mindlessly seeking pleasure and thinking of ways to increase pleasure. Of course, you cannot prove your silly theory. You can only ever be an arrogant little man.

>>24518988
None of that is true. The only reference needed for morality is reality itself. Read my post again, morality is a negotiated framework among people to ensure fairness and buy-in so that as many people as possible can achieve their wishes without infringing on those around them unfairly.

>>24518989
Laughable statement. You're a real comedian, aren't you, anon?

>>24516027
chatGPT ahh post
>>24518988
you just replied to an AI

>>24519001
The hilarious part of this exchange is that you mindlessly typed that out and posted it because it brought you a perverse form of pleasure to insult someone who opposes your viewpoint. Here, I'll spell it out for you: The actions which men voluntarily do proceed from their will, proceed from their liberty, and yet because every act of man's will and every desire and inclination proceedeth from some cause, and that from another cause, in a continual chain, they proceed from necessity. So that to him that could see the connection of those causes, the necessity of all men's voluntary actions would appear manifest.

>>24519037
I have not used chatGPT at all. Here, you are representing a new vanguard of total mental deficients who see a well reasoned and articulate post and instantly see it as beyond your own ability, and thus must cope by claiming it was written by AI. Do better, anon.

>>24511917
BASED

>>24519025
What fucking wishes? Nobody actually believes that crap. Also, define unfairness.
>>24519046
This is a very gay way to say "determinism is real and I can see it with my eyes."
Also, you haven't explained why there is a true way to allpcate one's time. You also haven't disagreed with my assertion.

refuted by Beauty

>>24519027
Name one thing that stoicism, epicureanism, aristotle or plato brought or is preserved in our "western culture" you don't believe in teleology, you don't believe in self-abnegation, you don't believe in transcendental realms, you don't believe in souls, you don't think that true pleasure is mere absence of pain, you don't think emptions are value judgments, and you cannot remember the last time you completely suspended your judgment.

>>24519078
Nicomachean Ethics essentially underpin all of western values. Not to mention the political system has very influence from both Roman and Greek civilization. Your position here is just silly.

>>24519069
I was clearly using "misallocate" in reference to pursuing things that were false. It's embarrassing that you couldn't connect the dots on that one for yourself. Also, wishes, or the impetus for action, arise based on prior causes and are in line with a person's nature as influenced by how they were nurtured. The nurturing aspect is where morality comes in, since we can use reason to adopt best practices regarding ensuring the highest level of desirable outcomes possible. The only way to refute this is to claim that what is desirable isn't desirable, an incoherent statement, thus you are forced to either reckon on my terms or to admit you aren't a rational person.

>>24518988
This, lol.