Anons I have been reading Baltasar's The Art of Wordily Wisdom since the start of this year. But nothing is fucking working out. I never change. I stay the fucking same. I was reading that there are two type of theories of psychology, one say that it's possible to change yourself and one say it doesn't. It all link back to that retarded debate of having "essence" and character being set on stone during your birth or if the people come into this world as a clean slate. I don't know which one is right.

Even the fucking arch pessimist Schopenhauer wrote a self help book "Wisdom of Life". He also recommended Baltasar for self improvement and "if you want to prosper in the great world out there". I am feeling so lost and misreable. That all of this is my fault that I am fucking over my life and being too retarded for not applying "wisdom" on to my lift. What the fuck is going on?

It just fucking irks me man that somewhere out there there is this "RIGHT WAY TO DO THINGS" KEEEEEEK
But I don't get it

>What the fuck is going on?
unfucking your life has three stages
>stage one
being intelligent enough to have self awareness and seek out good sources to gather wisdom from
>stage two:
understanding and integrating the gathered wisdom
>stage three:
self mastery through applying the gained wisdom

up to stage two, shit‘s pretty easy since it does not involve the actual hard work, which is why most people get stuck there
also because it feels satisfying to feel like you already know how, and deluding yourself into thinking that you could pull it off if you actually tried, so it‘s tempting to rest on the stage two laurels forever

the last part of self mastery is the final boss and there is no short cuts and no easy way, there is just trying, failing, getting up and trying again, learning from your mistakes each time until you make it and you pull yourself out of the swamp one step at a time

>>24517952
>up to stage two, shit‘s pretty easy since it does not involve the actual hard work, which is why most people get stuck there
can you explain this part?

have you improved?

>>24517925 (OP)
Self improvement toward what?
Wisdom for what?
Beneficial in what fucking way?
In my exoerience, it all just seems to boil down to attaining base and worldly desire for pleasure and comfort.

>>24518015
Towards a frictionless(see not pleasureful) way to deal with the world and prosper in it.

>"Man's life is a warfare against the malice of men."

-Baltasar Gracian

Achieving wisdom to protect oneself and prosper in this jungle of men.

>>24518037
>and prosper in it
This means "to attain pleasure more easily. To satisfy one's extremely worldly cravings for pleasure, being and becoming. To attain the gf that will give you an orgasm without effort on your own arm. To live in comfortable material conditions. To be liked and loved by many. To feel all of this, and no pain."

>>24518007
>can you explain this part?
The hard work part? Well, everything you do that doesn‘t benefit you is like a bug in the system. The first step will be to find the bug. That demands self observation, being honest with oneself and searching for suggestions on how to fix it from respectable sources. The hard work will be the trial and error phase where you go through the potential solutions you have gathered. It can be complicated to decide wether a method is the right one or not because you never really know if it‘s not the right method or if you are just not doing it right. You can get lucky and find the right solution right away but it can also be that a problem is so complex and layered that it takes ten years to solve. Staying with a bug for ten years and refusing to just give up and accept that it‘s pointless is the hard work because it demands a resilient character that does not give up as soon as things get hard and demand endurance.
>have you improved?
I definitely have, but I also still have a long way to go.

>>24518050
Forgot: to feel oneself as being elevated in terms of worldly attainments compared to your "fellow" men. To struggle, sure, but most importantly to actually win and be pleased in ones victory.

>>24518065
nta nut thats not entirely true
not all self improvement is meant to be about more worldly pleasure
for example, it can be about letting go of the obsession with worldly pleasure or finding humility instead of chasing a sense of superiority

>>24518050
>>This means "to attain pleasure more easily.
No. There two attitudes towards it. One is to seek pleasure but there's this other ancient way which pleasure is not our goal the state of non-suffering.

>>24518065
Well anon to be honest we can't escape this vanity of seeking attention from other people if we don't live as hermits far away from human society and are not planing to leave behind anything in this world other than few rags and your corpse.

>>24518051
Which problems are worth evaluating? How do you decide? I always end up in total confusion regarding what attitude to take and then I react very late.

>>24517925 (OP)
You have to actually ask yourself what is the empirical evidence for anything these self-help gurus are saying, instead of following it because it sounds nice and fits your own preconceived notions. Turns out 99% of self-help is just "dude trust me IT WORKS"

>>24518105
Here you go

>>24518098
>how do you decide
trial and error
you trust your own best judgment in the moment to chose what’s most pressing and will be most fundamental and you trust yourself enough to believe that if you have taken a wrong turn, you‘ll notice at some point and be able to course correct
it can absolutely be that you take a wrong turn and it leads you astray for years, but if that happens then I will believe that this was necessary for me to learn what does not work, so I can make more informed decisions with my next attempt
you try, you observe, you refine until you get it right

>>24518105
I think this Guru syndrome has fucked me over. I take Schopenhauer as an authority on most matters.

>>24518123
Here we are talking about Baltasar and Schopenhauer. Not this sports jock type of self improvement.

>>24518125
Have you read The Art of Wordily Wisdom? Can you please reference some aphorism and apply it to an everyday situation?

>>24518146
sure, pic rel for example

it teaches about how it is our animal nature to seek hierarchy, dominance, competition, superiority
but it warns about falling into those trappings since it drags you down to the level of people that stop at nothing to get the upper hand and it makes you look narcissistic and frankly immature and thus lose respect of people that value dignity and humanity over vain ego strokings, which would be those you do want on your side
that doesn‘t mean you can‘t ever enter a playful and good willed competition or that you can‘t work towards great achievements, it means to stay humble about it
for example, even if you get a nobel prize, that does not give you the right to become an asshole that acts aloof and like you look down on everyone else
it urges to remember to stay human first and foremost and value that higher than winning over those that you should instead make your loyal friends because competition breeds rivalry and rivalry invites foul play, it makes you a target for those willing to to whatever it takes to one up you - and also insufferable and thus probably lonely

>>24517925 (OP)

No. You have crossed the street countless times. Have you "gotten better at crossing the street"? No. Moreover, "getting better at crossing the street" does not even mean anything.

>>24517925 (OP)
It’s funny to think through these things and then see someone else at the start of the same thought process.

>>24518209
nta but crossing the street is indeed a learned skill, it‘s just one you learn so early you think it isn‘t one and yes, you can absolutely be better or worse at crossing a street as is evident by those that get hit by a car when attempting to do just that
it requires multiple skills like being able to not fall over your own feet, have awareness of your surroundings, know traffic laws and have common sense
all things not all people can pull off

>>24517925 (OP)
You have to do things yourself, it is like Schopenhauer himself said on Parerga und Paralipomena, you can read too much, you are supposed to do some thinking by yourself. Have you ever assessed your own situation? Considering things that you want to change, do you keep track of anything related to it? Are you thinking about better ways to keep track of it too or are your ways of looking at things subjective and depend a lot on your own views of things?

>>24518203
Thank you for replying. But there's this one last thing

Okay so for me art is at the 180 degree of wisdom. Art is irrational and limited. I am an artist so I have tried to apply this into my life but I don't know. I just can't seem to thrive to rational thinking. Baltasar has negatively impacted my artistic thinking because I am seeking a worldly ideal and not the aesthetic one.

So I don't know

>>24518213
Then give me something to chew for fuck's sake

>>24518223
>you are supposed to do some thinking by yourself.
Nothing comes out of my thinking other than rage and confusion. But thanks for other points

>>24518242
whats the difference between the worldly ideal and the aesthetic one to you in that context?

>>24518273
One is outside and other is inside.

>>24518084
Then we are talking about spiritual improvement like buddhism.
>>24518098
I agree. Humans are a completely worthless animal incapable of any form of self-discipline.

>>24518333
what you find aesthetically pleasing vs what others might approve of? how did he influence that?
in general, remember this: authentic art can either be received well or not, but it‘s at least art
making something you know will go smoothly with the taste of the masses is not art, thats decoration

reading helps you to cope and avoid making mistakes. success is attained by hard work and finding fields that accompany your skill set so you find advantageous positions where you don't have to fight uphill battles to move forward in life.

you cannot change your personality and become someone else. best thing you can do is analyzing your situation and deciding what is the path forward all things considered.

sure, books are great and they teach you things but they are not that great. you will not come across a secret information in old books that will turn you into a gorillionaire womanizer once you read it. such people are born not made. and I know some subhuman reading this would get an immediate itch to pick a fight with me over this statement but I think everyone lives to see its truth.

>>24518337
spirituality is part of the self

>>24518242
>Nothing comes out of my thinking other than rage and confusion.
This is a good start, you already recognized those patterns, now you should start paying attention to what makes them worse, and trying to figure out a way of improving and controlling it.

>>24518360
don't listen to this faggot. don't try to control your emotions, find what causes bad emotions and try to get away from the source.

>>24518374
>"don't control your emotions"
>"just control your emotions by using this particular method of controlling your emotions"
And I'm not even talking about that considering his life, because it is probably due to some shit that is in his environment, he gets weaker and irritated. This kind of psychologizing approach doesn't really work when things are like this, because he is mad all the fucking time, he probably has some kind of actual health problem or allergy or something that causes him to be like that all the time.

>>24518405
>And I'm not even talking about that considering his life, because it is probably due to some shit that is in his environment, he gets weaker and irritated. This kind of psychologizing approach doesn't really work when things are like this, because he is mad all the fucking time, he probably has some kind of actual health problem or allergy or something that causes him to be like that all the time.
Kek, this seem like a superhuman ability to me. To have an idea about other people and then guessing things about them based on what they have said. Funny thing is your judgements are largely true and it is so baffling that how people can do it.

Man I understand nothing about life. And it just destroys me.

>>24518442
I know, anon, I used to be probably even worse than you are right now. It literally got to a point where I was unable to write a single sentence that made any sense. So don't give up on it, start trying to keep track of how you are feeling and try removing different things from your environment. Don't get me wrong, psychology does help, but it probably won't solve this by itself. My main problems were due to certain food ingredients and other things that I was using regularly. Changing those things severely improved my life.
https://www.fammed.wisc.edu/files/webfm-uploads/documents/outreach/im/handout_elimination_diet_patient.pdf
Check this out, and get yourself checked in a doctor if you are going to mess with anything related to your diet, specially if you are going to remove foods or supplement your diet, but you will be fine.

>>24518462
I just keep juggling between these child like moments of extreme happiness and the moment of hellish despair and confusion and regret.
>try removing different things from your environment.
I live in turd world. So I am definitely exposed to toxins, horrible pollution and unhygienic food. I have been running after supplements from last 2 years. I do have eternal digestive issues, tinnitus and seasonal allergies. I could have coped but I lack physical health. Here you have to live like an animal without thinking too much but I think every little detail. I gave myself two years. This is the last year. I've been trying to solve my medical issues from many years and doctors don't give a shit. If things won't improve until the end of this year. I am going to just fucking rot without any guilt. This is why wisdom literature disgusts me. It always make you feel guilty of not doing enough.

>>24518538
Don't completely neglect things, this is the worse thing that you can possibly do, is to stop caring about it, there is always something that can be done. Even if you are exposed to chemicals, you can drink water instead of some goyslop soda and some other shit. And considering what I studied in nutrition, avoid supplements, use them as a last resort, prioritize food, real food, and if it starts getting to a point where you are eating too much food for some nutrient and it is getting hard for you to digest everything, then you start using supplements. Don't fall into those influencers baiting you into buying shit.
Consider omega-3, eating fish is always going to be better than supplementing omega-3, and even omega-3 supplements can have certain forms of that chemical that aren't as good as some other chemical forms of it. This is true for a lot of other supplements. Don't buy supplements without studying things yourself or without professional orientation. This is specially true for multivitamins, they will give you a false sense of security, because you will think that you are good and that its formula has everything that you need, but things are way more complicated than what could be generalized to an universal problem, specially considering your case that you have a real problem.

>>24517925 (OP)
>It just fucking irks me man that somewhere out there there is this "RIGHT WAY TO DO THINGS" KEEEEEEK
>But I don't get it

You're overthinking it.
>but wha..!?
you're overthinking it.

>>24518571
thanks anon

>>24518607
lol

>>24517925 (OP)
you have to understand that your time is running out, with each passing day your mind is stabilizing, your intelligence is crystallizing and at that point no self improvement book will help you. you have to look into your heart. ditch out reason and follow your passion. let the animal inside out if you want to, because at some point he will sooner or later and you gotta be ready for that

Self improvement is great
I can't imagine how you could be satisfied waking up as the exact same person you were a month ago
You should always be working on yourself, for example mastering the art of marquetry, lacemaking, scythe mowing, hydromel brewing, waka composition, C++ programming or biblical Hebrew

>>24518705
>mastering the art of marquetry, lacemaking, scythe mowing, hydromel brewing, waka composition, C++ programming or biblical Hebrew
tfw when C++ programming is the most useless thing on this list

>>24518353
Or not. The self may not actually exist. But we are talking about worldly self-improvement, which is what these threads typically boil down to. How do I attain worldly pleasure, get more sausage, hot thing to fuck, etc.

>>24518705
>just waste your time learning bunch of impractical shit bro also make sure they're completely unrelated so there isn't a chance they could one day synergistically work together bro
man I wish I could just give you what you really need and put you out of your misery

>>24517925 (OP)
I'm not reading the posts in this thread
>what are you dissatisfied with specifically?
>what concrete actions are you taking to remedy that?
>where will those actions take you in the next month? Year?
Step one of fixing your problems is naming the problems

>>24517925 (OP)
>It just fucking irks me man that somewhere out there there is this "RIGHT WAY TO DO THINGS" KEEEEEEK
There is no right way to do things, only right ways to do specific actions in specific scenarios.
For instance, it is more right to sleep 7 hours than 3 hours. It is only by making more individually right decisions over and over that you can improve your life.
By making decisions in a specific scenario that are right over and over,
you will accumulate good habits and then be effortlessly good.This is because conditioned habits have their own motivational force that develops, they trigger urges to do them.
It seems like you are trying to find a master key that will solve all your problems at once using unreliable things like philosophy and fiction to help you find it. Since they are unreliable, this will not work. You yourself will disagree with a philosophical perspective a month down the line.
One of the main purposes of developing habits is to change those surprising, unimaginable, extreme moments of happiness into unsurprising and regular occurrences.
>>24518705
There really is something empty about randomly accumulating skills that have no practical purpose and don't really seem fun in themselves. We have guys like Goethe to thank for this weird state of affairs, bildung being the modern virtue that it is.
But that does make you wonder what's worth striving for. Where do we draw the line between working on yourself and being a hostage of culture. Do you really improve after reading a prestigious novel, or learning to play the viola? It just seems like masochism for the sake of being cultured, without the fun. Which makes me wonder if there is a Kafka story about this sort of thing.

>>24518974
ok, so you walking your spiritual path irl does not change the way you life for the better?

>>24517925 (OP)
Only in a personal spiritual sense, where it comes from inside you, and not from some bald grifter.

It's more akin to Epicurus, and living naturally than the astroturfed scammer shit we have nowadays.

>>24518946
As a C++ programmer with 10 years of experience, yes. But all programming and anything with computers.

>>24518123
>just take adderall bro
nigger what

>>24517925 (OP)
ngl senpai you are way too in your head. you are asking yourself to determine whether nurture or nature is correct. you are setting yourself up for failure considering its still debated. take the hippy dippy route and accept some of those things about yourself

>>24519789
No. There is no meaning in this world. Self abnegation's purpose is to render you inconsequential instead of doing what must be done by manifesting the power of wrath and killing as many people as humanly possible. Or just killing yourself, since even that will cause slight discomfort in the world.

>>24519794
Bald people are ugly and unnattractive losers, I agree

>>24519804
I don't trust self help books written by women, they're akin to asking a fat man for diet advice.

>>24517925 (OP)
One has to actively apply the wisdom. Pick one or two habits/character flaws you have and work on them consciously. Every day brings new opportunities to choose good over evil.

the main problem with self-help advice is that none of it addresses the main obstacle of change - internal conflict. you see, no matter how much you want to do x or act like y, there is a subconscious and automatic part of you that is stronger and sees the world differently. rational arguments do not work, only specific experiences can affect it. if that part of you thinks that doing x isn't worth it or possible, you will have to waste willpower trying to drag its ass to do it and you'll fail because willpower is ultimately limited. but then other times, that part of you is aligned with what you want and work feels effortless and you don't even think about it.

the question is how to align that part with your conscious, rational goals? none of these self-help manuals manage to describe the problem, let alone solve it. i mean, it's basically an ancient problem, the greeks called it "akrasia". daniel kahneman calls it system 1 and system 2. psychotherapy might call it your "core beliefs" or "unprocessed trauma" or some other thing based on their model. all change boils down to convincing /that/ part of yourself to do the thing. language seems to be a wrong tool to do it, it doesn't understand abstractions or logical arguments. it basically needs experiences that will disprove the current model in order to make room for a different one. it's just very difficult to engineer without defaulting to hitting your head against a door and hoping it opens.

>>24518015
And pleasure and comfort are only mechanisms that help us forget the futility of it all.

>>24518140
>Not this sports jock type of self improvement.
Copium is thinking its different.
To have energy, you need restitution. To get restitution you also need to strain the body so it reinforces itself properly. And to have good sleep you need the body to have a need of enough sleep so it dips properly.

Similarly, to gain anything from reading one need to process it.
Take notes, think about it, apply it to situations, etc.
But reading won't fix that you have UARS, meaning your sleep is suboptimal, and then your cognition isn't sharp as its suppose to be, and you get home from work completely drained.

>>24517925 (OP)
Masturbation is self-improvement.

>>24517925 (OP)
There is a qualitative difference between mediocrity and resignation to mediocrity that has no material consequence but is clearly there. The idea that "self improvement is cope" is basically like saying weight loss and muscle gain are actually physically impossible, or that the brain does not store information that you've learned if you're not 180 IQ, or that doing bad things and then no longer doing them is the same as if you just kept doing them. You are holding mediocrity up to the standards of the exceptional, telling yourself "that's not me" and then telling yourself that's an excuse to be a fat lazy basedboy who will eat the bugs and work in the cube. It's not difficult to figure out, it just has to be done. You are given a life to live not a life to waste and the beauty of bravery is that victory is not a requirement, but for the coward victory can resemble just a slower way of dying.

>>24523872
>Able bodied retard is projecting his smugness