Thread 24521389

Of all the lost texts, the one I’d like to read most is Porphyry's "Against the Christians". It was a massive 15 volume work refuting every aspect of Christianity from both a historical and philosophical perspective. Porphyry had access to sources we don't have anymore like histories of the Phoenicians (he was from Tyre himself). It's arguments were so searing that multiple Christian emperors had it banned and every copy burned. Even mentioning his arguments was banned, so stuff Christians wrote in an attempt to "refute" it didn't survive either. We only have a few fragments via quotations, and even from what little we know, he prefigured a lot of what was later independently discovered by academic Biblical study, e.g. the Book of Daniel NOT being written during the Babylonian exile but rather, being written in the 180s BC under the reign of Seleucid king Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

>>24521389 (OP)
γραφεις παντες ων λεγες: ειναι παντες ομοφιλεις νοες;

>>24521389 (OP)
False framing

>>24521389 (OP)
When you realize Christians were the bad guys

Lmao at pagans calling belief in Jesus superstition when they worshipped a pantheon of gods who cheated on each other and bickered over drama like the jerry springer show.

>>24521756
To the pagans, divine nature reflected human nature. Their gods weren't idealised into irrelevancy like Jesus. No human being can emulate Christ, but he can occasionally invoke the wrath of Mars, or the compassion of Venus, when he needs to.

>>24521389 (OP)
pliny one's a banger. the ancients just had a way with words.

>>24521389 (OP)
I'd love to read the Prometheus trilogy

Do you guys think there are ancient sources yet to be rediscovered? Manuscripts and more

>>24521756
Dont conflate romans with greeks. Romans had a much colder, abstract relationship to the gods than the flamboyant greeks did. Of course people were still superstitious but intellectuals and philosophers stood above that.

>>24523300
There's still a shitton of scrolls in Herculaneum that haven't been touched.

Catholic here. I’ve been on the fence for the past decade because of certain doctrines that I can’t get myself to believe. For instance, I find it impossible to accept that human beings are spiritually equal (in contrast gnostics and pagans who acknowledge a hierarchy have a much healthier idea). Currently my little country is taking in large numbers of immigrants from South-Asia and the Middle-East. They continue to come, more and more of them, and we accept this, believing them to be equal to us (if not physically, then certainly spiritually). I feel something good and beautiful is being lost and yet, as a Catholic, I am supposed to be blind to that fact.. On the other hand, Christendom has historically been on the “right side of history” in more things than our contemporaries would like to believe. Were I to renounce my Catholicism, what alternative would there be? A neopaganism that is subjective and arbitrary? Hinduism that has assimilated far too many Dravidian forms? Buddhism that makes no claim to concern itself with such material concerns? There doesn’t seem to be anything else..

>>24521389 (OP)
Glad that pagans are gone right now, retarded freaks

>>24523465
>On the other hand, Christendom has historically been on the “right side of history”
Imagine looking at history and seeing all the objectively atrocious human suffering caused by Christendom and seriously typing this sentence down.

>>24523479
>all the objectively atrocious human suffering caused by Christendom
Such as?

>>24523482
Persecution of LGBTQ people

>>24523489
They should have been persecuted harder

>>24523465
St. Thomas says:
>Man's relations with foreigners are twofold: peaceful, and hostile: and in directing both kinds of relation the Law contained suitable precepts. For the Jews were offered three opportunities of peaceful relations with foreigners. First, when foreigners passed through their land as travelers. Secondly, when they came to dwell in their land as newcomers. And in both these respects the Law made kind provision in its precepts: for it is written (Exodus 22:21): "Thou shalt not molest a stranger". Thirdly, when any foreigners wished to be admitted entirely to their fellowship and mode of worship. With regard to these a certain order was observed. For they were not at once admitted to citizenship: just as it was law with some nations that no one was deemed a citizen except after two or three generations, as the Philosopher says (Polit. iii, 1). The reason for this was that if foreigners were allowed to meddle with the affairs of a nation as soon as they settled down in its midst, many dangers might occur, since the foreigners not yet having the common good firmly at heart might attempt something hurtful to the people. Hence it was that the Law prescribed in respect of certain nations that had close relations with the Jews, that they should be admitted to the fellowship of the people after the third generation; whereas others were never to be admitted to citizenship; while the Amalekites, who were yet more hostile to them, and had no fellowship of kindred with them, were to be held as foes in perpetuity.
>The Law excluded the men of no nation from the worship of God and from things pertaining to the welfare of the soul: for it is written (Exodus 12:48): "If any stranger be willing to dwell among you, and to keep the Phase of the Lord; all his males shall first be circumcised, and then shall he celebrate it according to the manner, and he shall be as that which is born in the land." But in temporal matters concerning the public life of the people, admission was not granted to everyone at once, for the reason given above: but to some, i.e. the Egyptians and Idumeans, in the third generation; while others were excluded in perpetuity, in detestation of their past offense, i.e. the peoples of Moab, Ammon, and Amalec. For just as one man is punished for a sin committed by him, in order that others seeing this may be deterred and refrain from sinning; so too may one nation or city be punished for a crime, that others may refrain from similar crimes.
>Nevertheless it was possible by dispensation for a man to be admitted to citizenship on account of some act of virtue: thus it is related (Judith 14:6) that Achior, the captain of the children of Ammon, "was joined to the people of Israel, with all the succession of his kindred." The same applies to Ruth the Moabite who was "a virtuous woman" (Ruth 3:11): although it may be said that this prohibition regarded men and not women, who are not competent to be citizens absolutely speaking.

>>24523482
They made the Hindus stop killing widows. That is unforgivable saar.

>>24523501
Sorry meant to type insufficient* persecution of LGBTQ people (it was common practice to send a child to the monastery if they started showing questionable tendencies)

>>24521389 (OP)
How do we cope we lost so many powerful books from history? We will never read autobiography of Sulla, the suicide fuel of Hegesias, the lost homeric epics or many other texts from ancient times.

>>24523566
preserve the books we have now

>>24523566
Why does it matter? They're not better just because they're old lol

>>24523586
Arguably they are.
They're thoughts and records of things these days unclear, marinated in ancient traditions and cultures.

>>24521389 (OP)
That Aurelius quote is actually quite good. Christians, especially the truly devout ones, have historically been extremely stubborn. It probably did serve them well (in terms of this world, at least), but the Japanese quite infamously took extreme advantage of this stubborness in their persecution.

>>24521756
The irony of saying this when you believe in a jew on a stick and god telling moses to cut 1000 foreskins from his enemies and bickering with him in the desert is not lost on me. 0 self-awareness

>>24523566
well, we just cope because no use now

>>24523704
The God of the Bible is supposed to be the alpha and the omega, creator of everything, the fount and source of all being, eternal, unchanging, beyond human comprehension. The pagan gods like zeus are just "dudes" with some power for some arbitrary reason who have wives and fight and cheat on them. This is in no way comparable to God guiding moses to lead his people out of the desert and establish a nation with laws and customs and ceremonial worship which then sets the path for God to incarnate into the world himself to directly call his creation towards spiritual renewal and reveal that those ceremonies were mere symbols for the internal spiritual transformation which man must undergo to restore his innocence and cosmic beatitude

>>24521389 (OP)
>pagans
You mean sophists from their lofty towers. These moronic ramblings that fail to understand the common man are why their belief systems are gone and Christianity is not.

>>24523737
>Arbitrary
>>>>>>>>>Arbitrary
>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary>Arbitrary
"Arbitrary"

>>24521389 (OP)
/lit/ deboonks Christianity so thoroughly that it has to do it every day as if it somehow didn't work the first time. Interesting, no?

>>24523777
>why their belief systems are gone
Yeah that's why Proclus and Porphyry were so popular in the medieval age onward

>>24523793
>Neopagan nerdrage

>>24523544
One of the Christian Roman Emperors had all the faggot male prostitutes arrested and burned alive.

>>24523777
>why their belief systems are gone and Christianity is not
Crushing political power, beginning with the Emperor Constantine and propagating from the Romans down to the medieval kings of Europe and the totalitarian Catholic church.
Put simply, you became a Christian or got burned alive.

>>24523489
No, the godtards were right about that.

>>24523737
You just explained why the pagan gods were more meaningful and relevant than the god of the Bible.

>>24523482
The massacres of the late Roman Empire, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Wars of Religion, the denial of basic human instincts, the retardation of science and progress, and not forgetting all the pederasty.

>>24521389 (OP)
I'd much prefer to have any lost book from the Greek Epic Cycle but you do you

>>24524735
To retards yeah

>>24524749
Wah wah wah humans have been waging war and killing each other since the beginning and even under atheist regimes like revolutionary France, nazi Germany, or the ussr it happened

>>24521813
no about 98% of them just made offerings so their ox would get fat or their wife would have a son paganism was mostly just religious materialism

>>24524749
the inquisition prevented further wars of religion in Spain
if Germany and England had done the same there very well may have been much less carnage in europe

>>24524754
Your post refutes your own point.
>>24524762
Read the post I replied to, and shut the fuck up.

>>24523300
There was a library discovered at Pompeii and they used mri scanning or some such to retrieve all the texts, overnight they doubled the number of ancient texts we have.

>>24521813
Pagan religion was a shitshow, this is the entire reason Christianity was able to dominate it to begin with.
It used to be something legitimate but that age had long ago passed

>>24524783
This is a good aspect of religion unless you‘ve been mindbroken to believe that poverty of the "not having a stable and successful family" variety is a virtue.

>>24523737
>This is in no way comparable to God guiding moses to lead his people out of the desert
which never happened, by the way

>>24525749
Why does it matter lmao religion is basically philosophy contextualised within community and expressed in stories rituals art politics etc it doesn't matter if it actually happened as long as it means something to the community

>>24521389 (OP)
>refuted by Origen

>>24525794
criticising pagan religions for making things up while defending things that christianity made up is very hypocritical and very annoying

>>24525823
Because the pagans made up retarded things

>>24525007
>the entire reason Christianity was able to dominate it
... was the military and legal force of the Roman Empire.
The world didn't adopt Christianity, it was rammed up its ass on the point of a sword.

Man, I remember over 10 years ago you could have more serious and mature discussions about religion here. Its disappointing to see a bunch of old sentimental reddit arguments get brought up. You would expect a board about literature and philosophy to provide something more substantial than "muh crusades" "muh fairy tale" "muh homophobia". Probably a bunch of troon newfags. Its a shame how much this website has degraded in the last decade.

>>24523465
I'm sorry that this sounds like an attack, but I've been there calling myself catholic and doing just the following. How can you seriously analyze all evidence and even how it fits in your actual beliefs while calling yourself a "catholic believer"? You will morph everything to fit and match your experience with catholic doctrine. You already found a lot of friction with your actual, personal beliefs, so why call yourself catholic? You obviously already diverged.

>>24526587
Old people left and were replaced by tourists who simultaneously thought they were too cool for reddit/twitter while exemplifying the "people" who use those places to begin with.

>>24526587
i wonder how much he got compensated by big soda for that pic

>>24526850
yeah the only reason i know anything about reddit is because people are constantly calling stuff reddit and i'm like how do u know what's reddit or not?

>>24526883
Go back redditor

>>24524850
They still have to virtually unroll and try to decipher almost all of them. But it would be amazing if there was a major work in there.

>>24524749
>the retardation of science and progress
Amerimutt hands typed this post.

>>24521389 (OP)
People say this type of stuff about Feuerbach but he genuinely sucks. The best critiques of Christianity historically are from the Neoplatonists though, so who knows.

>>24525796
>Literal Christranny
lmao

>>24523300
Yes, I imagine there are also ancient sources which are held in private collections.
>>24523586
Ancient works are priceless as they are a product of their time and form the foundation of Western culture. I’d do anything in exchange for restoring all the works of just Aristotle, Heraclitus, and Parmenides.

>>24527379
Obsessed.

>>24527605
Christcucks are prototrannies

>>24523737
You can't just read a summary of a poem by hesiod talking about bronze age stories and assume that is actually what Greeks and Romans several hundred years later actually took as theology. The god of philosophers looks quite a bit like the one you worship, to the point where medieval christians retroactively claimed them. The god of the christians was able to supplant Zeus because the two were so similar, they even had katabatic sons worshipped as the centre of salvific cults of initiates that participated in ritual consumption of wine and flesh. The christian's god even supplanted the name of Zeus. Crack open a mystery play and the actor playing god won't introduce himself as YHWH.

>>24521389 (OP)
me too

>>24527292
Are these Amerimutts in the room with you right now?

>>24526587
>wah, my safe space doesn't exist anymore