Thread 24525055

was guenon a crypto marxist?

>capitalism is bad, supresses the organic individual turning them into machines

>individualism bad

>the collapse of capitalism is inevitable and what follows is a golden age of humanity

>the golden age is one caste/classless where each individual can fully develop according to their natural abilities

what's going on here?

>>24525055 (OP)
He has always supported class distinction/caste system. What are you even on about?

>>24525065
so wrong, he mentions the golden age of hinduism when they had one caste as the golden age and what we will return to. it is the temporal power book

>>24525077
>Guénon finds the true definition of caste in the Sanskrit etymologies. Accordingly, “The principle of the institution of castes, so completely misunderstood by Westerners, is nothing else but the differing natures of human individuals; it establishes among them a hierarchy the incomprehension of which only brings disorder and confusion, and it is precisely this incomprehension that is implied in the ‘egalitarian’ theory so dear to the modern world.”
Just read any other of his books.

>>24525445
i have, you're just quoting wikipedia or something

>>24525055 (OP)
>>24525445
Unironically shilling for a caste system on the basis of "differing natures", lmao. I can't get over how retarded rightoids are. If you're a warrior from the warrior caste it doesn't follow that your sons will be as great as you. Nor is it inevitable that people from the priest or lower castes will not be good warriors. That's why egalitarianism is necessary so we can have a meritocracy where people's differing natures are respected and they can go into the fields they want and rise based on merit without this oppressive hereditary system suppressing their talents.

>>24525825
>a meritocracy where people's differing natures are respected and they can go into the fields they want and rise based on merit

Sounds like a description of the Caste system, to me.

>>24525848
The caste system is hereditary and passed down by blood not by merit, that's the whole issue with it

>>24525849
I mean your blood is partially merit-based, you aren't like an atom that just beamed itself into existence from nowhere

>>24525077
>he mentions the golden age of hinduism when they had one caste as the golden age and what we will return to
I suppose this is what internt Guenon critics are referring to with their "Retvrn" meme, interesting how someone can be so braindead as to attempt to criticize an author they haven't read, and certainly don't come near to understanding.

>>24525861
If it were the case we'd expect to see long unbroken dynasties in sports, but since sports is merit based what you actually see is the son usually underperforms the father (eg in boxing), and new stars are always arising who have no family connections.

>>24525879
I dunno if that's true I feel like if you look at the ancestors of successful athletes you're probably going to find athletic people there, I don't think you're going to find sloths and weaklings. They wouldn't necessarily have to be successful in that same sport but they probably had the "seed" of athleticism in them, whether they cultivated it or not.

>>24525055 (OP)
He was a Third-Positionist at most, much like basically all """fringe""" (using the term loosely) people were around his time.

>>24525899
Obviously but you have no way to determine who's the best except by letting them compete and then seeing who rises to the top. You're not going to do a genetic test to determine that. A caste system is obviously not the best way to find talent.

>>24526172
This has nothing to do with "talent", it's about the constitution of individuals.

>>24525825
Rightoids? Leftoids implemented a caste system where jews blacks, trannies, indians, and gays are on the top and look where society is headed (horrible worker conditions, slop, destruction of the nation's demographics, crime, crawling economy)

>>24525879
>>If it were the case we'd expect to see long unbroken dynasties in sports
The best athletes are statistically the children of athletes, the only reason we don't see dynasties is there's no reason to be one if you're already rich

>>24526217
That's not even remotely a caste system though.
>horrible worker conditions
Rightoids murdered the labor movement in the 20th century and sold out their own country's industries.
Worker conditions would be great if workers weren't systematically fucked over largely by the right.
How many right wingers are involved in the unionization of Amazon warehouses?

>>24526239
>Worker conditions would be great if workers weren't systematically fucked over largely by the right.
Haha, sure.

>>24526248
That's true though. If workers were allowed to politically organize, which they were doing naturally, then they could demonstrate against political actions that harm them as a group. That means outsourcing industry becomes extremely risky because you have unions ready to grind your entire economy to a halt, if not carry out violence, because of what you're doing to them.

Rightists love showing off how working class they are except for when it comes to giving the working class any actual power.

>>24526217
So how does adopting a fucking hereditary caste system from the shithole named India help with that

>>24526259
>which they were doing naturally
Workers have never ever done that, Anon, that's not how reality works. Dunno why you believe such nonsense.

>>24526229
Chris Eubank Sr was a world champion, Chris Eubank Jr fights at British level.
Not every brother of a great athlete is also a great athlete.
And I'm not arguing against the idea that there would be genetic correlations in talents. Obviously there will be. I'm saying you should make society meritocratic to the point where people aren't looking at who your father was but at who you are and what your particular talents are. That's what happens in sports. Nobody becomes world heavyweight champion because their daddy was. But that's exactly the caste system you're arguing for.

>>24526269
>you should make society meritocratic to the point where people aren't looking at who your father was
Why?

>>24526263
Workers have done that since industrialization. The earliest modern trade unions were around in the 18th century and only grew bigger and more internationalized in the 19th and 20th centuries. Those labor movements gave us the eight hour work day and outlawed child labor.

These Hylics drag his name (PBUH) in the political mud of urbanite burgers, refugees from the suburbs. May you rest in Gehenna until the circle is squared.

>>24526279
Well retard, they didn't organize themselves, that's a retarded modern myth

>>24526261
The caste system is outlawed in india. And what you said is stupid. If African countries have democracies does that mean democracies are bad because the countries are bad? Europeans had the caste system longer than any other civilization until recently

>>24526269
>Chris Eubank Sr was a world champion, Chris Eubank Jr fights at British level.
Still a good athlete, what's your point? The caste system is more than just "cuz person good at job" and "meritocracy" brainwashing has ruined whatever logical outlook you could have on it. You really think in "egalitarian" society the best people get the jobs? That's just false. Be serious: You think corporations have the people that are skill-wise the best at management in management positions? You think the government has the best possible politicians? Or does it simply have the best at tricking people, or the ones that know the right people? So you don't have a point other than strawmans and false dilemmas...

>>24526283
>The first attempts at forming a national general union in the United Kingdom were made in the 1820s and 30s. The National Association for the Protection of Labour was established in 1830 by John Doherty, after an apparently unsuccessful attempt to create a similar national presence with the National Union of Cotton-spinners.

>Doherty began his career as a cotton spinner as a child worker just ten years old in his home town of Buncrana.

>Following Doherty's relocation to Manchester, it was not long before he was involved with the factory workers' growing movement for higher wages and better conditions. In 1818 he was a leading figure in the spinners' strike and was imprisoned for two years.

>>24526239
>Worker conditions would be great if workers weren't systematically fucked over largely by the right.
That's why they're great in lefty countries, r-r-right?

>>24526276
Because it's not possible to accurately determine someone's skills or talents by looking at their geneology. It's unjust to deny someone social advancement on the basis of their heritage if that person is skilled enough to do the job and contribute. Nobody chooses who they're born to. It's also unjust to have a society ruled by idiots just because those idiots have a 'noble' bloodline.

>>24526239
>>>Worker conditions would be great if workers weren't systematically fucked over largely by the right.
>China
>North Korea
>Venezuela
>Cuba
>Soviet Union
>etc

>>24526290
>Because it's not possible to accurately determine someone's skills or talents by looking at their geneology. It's unjust to deny someone social advancement on the basis of their heritage if that person is skilled enough to do the job and contribute.
I disagree but that being said you're arguing against a strawman. That's not what the caste system is about. It's clearly about human types, not a theory but a reality.

>>24526239
>Creates worker's rights in America while literally supporting Hitler
Yeah I'm thinking you're indian or a tranny

>>24526285
European society advanced beyond that by cutting off the heads of the parasites in the 'top caste'. I will not bow to any man on the basis of who his father is, I will not consider myself genetically inferior to anyone. I will accept just and effective leadership if that leader proves himself capable and worthy. I'm not into being a slave.

>>24526293
>>24526293
China outlawed independent trade unions whereas I'm talking about a left that allows them and encourages their political participation. It's not the same kind of left.

>>24526290
>>>Because it's not possible to accurately determine someone's skills or talents by looking at their geneology
Twin studies disprove this

well it looks like he never really had a job

>>24526301
The labor movement in the US massively predates Ford.

It's nice to be good to your employees without needing to be compelled but it's not a substitute for an empowered working class. The point shouldn't be to rely on charity.

>>24526304
>My theoretical non-existent dream version of communism (which has never been tried) would work, guys!
This shitty fucking re-run again

>>24526285
>The caste system is outlawed in india.
Okay? It still exists on a cultural level to the point Indians complain about it. Even Indian immigrants to the West suffer caste discrimination from other Indians.

>>24526302
>>>European society advanced beyond that by cutting off the heads of the parasites in the 'top caste'. I will not bow to any man on the basis of who his father is, I will not consider myself genetically inferior to anyone. I will accept just and effective leadership if that leader proves himself capable and worthy. I'm not into being a slave.
So everyone can see you use politics for your psychological issues, maybe a inferiority complex?
>I'm not into being a slave.
Guess what you are, wagie.

>>24526311
>>>Okay? It still exists on a cultural level to the point Indians complain about it. Even Indian immigrants to the West suffer caste discrimination from other Indians.
Post hands saar

>>24526306
You're actually retarded. Twin studies prove that various traits are genetic, which I agree with, but they don't prove that you ought to be excluded from social mobility on the basis of who your father was. My family is working class, but I make a lot more than them because I was the first in my family to go to uni and get a good job. Should I have been excluded just because of who my father was?

>>24526308
"left or right" is really bad debate, both love importing indians

>>24526309
But I'm not talking about communism, I'm talking about trade unions and the Western left of which labor politics has always been a prominent part.
Unions weren't a big deal in China's largely agricultural economy. The culture and history of their system is worlds apart from what was going in the West and continues to.

>>24526312
>Guess what you are, wagie.
I work remotely and make a middle class salary despite coming from a working class family. You think I should have been excluded from social mobility because... my dad wasn't rich?
> maybe a inferiority complex
Nope, I'm very proud I was born in the US where I was able to be looked at objectively and appreciated for who I am without the burdensome weight of a nonsensical caste system holding me down.

>>24526320
It's also easy for anyone with a brain to see how they use the left/right meme to further their agenda.

>>24526325
You sound brown, it's just the way you speak, I have a strong built-in shitskin detector. Just sayin'.

>>24526319
See, you're making it about yourself again. This is a common mistake. Maybe read some more Kant, Hume, etc
>My family is working class, but I make a lot more than them because I was the first in my family to go to uni and get a good job. Should I have been excluded just because of who my father was?
Where do I even begin to address this... You're assuming our society, economy, and so on would look the exact same but with no social mobility. This is not how it works.

You know how one "working class" man with one job and an unemployed wife could support a household of 10, buy land, and basically have everything? Yeah, but that's not even beginning to address my argument though. Moreover, those don't mean anything without social cohesion, which is the biggest crisis in the West for the foreseeable 50-100 years. Your "uni" won't matter for shit when there's a predictable death of what this country is and has meant since conception. An unsustainable system is not a good one. But I'm rambling.

>>24526336
I'm literally blonde, but keep crying. I'm sure your blue blood makes up for your personal lack of accomplishments.

>>24526344
Lol, I don't know why you would project that you're "crying" and feel a "personal lack of accomplishments", but I pity you for it, very cringe thing to do, hope you improve somehow.

>>24526344
>Accomplishments
Literally made-up slave rat box incentives in this day and age. Unless you're talking about having actual political or societal impact (through breeding a stable lineage, etc) which I'm 99% sure you do not have, and it's harder to get than ever. But I'm sure you're happy coding slop social media apps for brown people, selling window cleaning, or whatever you do

>>24525055 (OP)
Why the long face?

>>24526343
Just a bunch of jumbled nonsense. First with the Ezra Pound quote. What has Britain fighting for the Rothschilds got to do with whether we ought to establish an oppressive caste system where people are evaluated not on their individual talents, contributions, and accomplishments but on who their father was? Can you tell me how (1) Britain should not fight for the Rothschilds is related to (2) Britain ought to establish an oppressive caste system where there is no social mobility and everything is based on heritage?
In this system you wouldn't be allowed to start a business if you weren't a nobleman, you wouldn't be able to become a military officer even if you could pass the exams better than any blue-blooded man, etc. etc.. What has this got to do with 'differing human natures' as Guenon claimed?
The fact that your ideas are so jumbled proves you are not a systematic thinker, you just have a bunch of feelings that you associate with ideas. 'Caste system' = social cohesion somehow? Didnt the caste system cause revolutions all over europe? 'Caste system' = a working class man can support his family. Seriously?

>>24526344
>I'm literally blonde, but keep crying.

>>24526325
Okay, what are your accomplishments? Getting head twice a month and leasing some made-in-china BMW? Paying your mortgage like a good goy?

>>24526362
Pic not related sorry for triggering your OCD
>In this system you wouldn't be allowed to start a business if you weren't a nobleman, you wouldn't be able to become a military officer even if you could pass the exams better than any blue-blooded man
Why is that a problem, when you can provide and own land anyways? Do you think life is about made-up temporal carrot-chasing?

>>24526364
I don't have many accomplishments, you're right, but I'm young and I want to pursue a PhD in philosophy and write a book one day. You think I shouldn't be able to pursue this, even if I can pass all of the exams and have good ideas etc, because my father was working class. This is why people like you got your heads cut off in revolutions.

>>24526362
>'Caste system' = social cohesion somehow?
Yes. That is what Guenon is arguing for, if you've ever read him.

>>24526382
Caste system produces such great social cohesion it leads to mass revolutions.
>>24526373
>this guy is ugly and he said something that sounds like he agrees with you
OK. I assume that you would be at the top of the caste with your blue blood, so is this the kind of intellectual argumentation we're going to have in your utopia when it comes?

>>24526343
>those don't mean anything without social cohesion
"social cohesion" isn't valuable in and of itself. If the social bond is sustaining my oppression then I'm no longer interested in maintaining it.
It's more pragmatic to have a flexible social contract that can accommodate different groups into an ever changing social network

>>24526380
>I'm young and I want to pursue a PhD in philosophy and write a book one day.
How young? Under 20? Because you're not very mature.
>You think I shouldn't be able to pursue this, even if I can pass all of the exams and have good ideas etc, because my father was working class. This is why people like you got your heads cut off in revolutions.
This is like when trannies say "Youre literally genociding me! You want to kill me!" No, I hope the best for you. As for your philosophy thing -- Why do you need a PHD? Why did the greatest philosophers exist in times were society was not "egalitarian?" You have much to read. Maybe try Plato's "The Republic" and "Leviathan" before you try to talk about politics. You seem to take modern-day politics at face value... But you're in good faith

>>24526387
>Caste system produces such great social cohesion it leads to mass revolutions.
Like every societal structure ever. What is this strawman? What "revolutions" are you talking about? Romans had a sort of caste system and they only fell because of over-expansion, economics, and invasions. Yet, they lasted what? 3000+ years including byzantine?

>>24526387
>>OK. I assume that you would be at the top of the caste with your blue blood, so is this the kind of intellectual argumentation we're going to have in your utopia when it comes?
You have much to read if you want to become a philosophy PHD, just keep in mind: Emotional arguments directed at people are not valid.

>>24526397
You didn't really engage with what that anon said. The point he's obviously making is that different castes will be treated differently and it's not unimaginable to envisage a system in which the upper castes have greater (or even exclusive) access to higher education.

>>24526393
>"social cohesion" isn't valuable in and of itself.
Yes it is, else you have massacres like in the USSR or South Africa. How is social cohesion that leads to safety and prosperity not in your interest? Do you not understand how tribal humans are? Not being homogeneous alienates you

>>24526397
>Because you're not very mature.
Don't try the dad routine, man, you're arguing for the return of a feudal caste system which is completely politically infeasible and exposes you as an idealistic worldbuilder and not a practical man of politics. I should be doing the dad routine on you.
> No, I hope the best for you.
You want to create a caste system where people's life choices are highly limited based on which caste they were born in, and this would include access to higher education. This is obviously against my interests because my family is working class and I have ambitions to ascend beyond that so I will fight you to the death over this.

>>24526415
Social cohesiveness doesn't necessarily lead to MY safety and prosperity though, just to the safety and prosperity of the social elite. I could be born as a Jew in Tsarist Russia constantly fearing pogroms. The cohesion of a society like that would hardly be in my interest then.
>Not being homogeneous alienates you
So we should work to lower the degree of that alienation. Differences will always arise in a society. This emphasis on homogeneity and social cohesion can easily lead to stamping out any development that's novel or interesting.
I mean for god's sake, we're on a dying /lit/ board in an era where nobody reads. Doesn't homogeneity then mean us being homogenized to fit the illiterate standard of a modern person?

>>24526402
Yeah the Romans who cleaned their asses with a sponge on the end of a stick and watched in glee as slaves fought to the death in colosseums is totally something that we can and should go back to

>>24526414
> and it's not unimaginable to envisage a system in which the upper castes have greater (or even exclusive) access to higher education.
Go ahead and justify how Rasheeja getting her gender studies degree to go work in HR is in any way good.

Jokes aside, there's no value in "higher education" itself, people just worship credentials because it currently means status, not because it's actually true education or anything transcendental. That's why today universities are mostly politics and bullshit, while it used to be all about actual education and creating geniuses around Kant's time in Germany where it was elitist

>>24526426
>Yeah the Romans who cleaned their asses with a sponge on the end of a stick and watched in glee as slaves fought to the death in colosseums is totally something that we can and should go back to
Both jewish myths and I fail to see how they're not awesome either way? Roman life is better than yours in every way

>>24526425
>social cohesion is bad for me if im a parasite jew or a jeet
...yeah?

>>24526427
God you people are so dumb and you imagine yourselves the 'top caste' genetically superior stock or whatever. The commercialisation of education, which I agree is a bad thing, is not intrinsically linked to the idea that caste should not be a consideration for admittance to university. University should focus on nurturing genius and imparting true learning, yes. But you ensure that by having stricter standards and decoupling education from the private sector, not by establishing a nonsensical caste system. You people can't put your argument in a syllogism because you're too fucking retarded. 'Aristocrats'!

>>24526428
>Roman life is better than yours in every way
lmfao, sure. Get off the internet and stop using toilet paper then.

>>24526427
Gender is a complex cultural thing and it's not a negative that we have people discussing it. I don't see how society is made worse by having scholars who are knowledgeable on the way gender is represented in Shakespeare for example.
>because it currently means status
Because college graduates end up earning more than high school grads.
>while it used to be all about actual education and creating geniuses around Kant's time in Germany where it was elitist
I mean, we still have elitist institutions. They filter applicants by their exam scores.

>>24526421
You lack historical knowledge to argue anything
>>>you're arguing for the return of a feudal caste system which is completely politically infeasible and exposes you as an idealistic worldbuilder and not a practical man of politics.
This system has existed since the dawn of humanity, continues to exist in some way, and will always exist.

The "university" you're trying to get into is a literal feudal institution. I'm not kidding. They still use feudal terminology even. Go search that up. So I know you'll think back on this and change your opinion anyway.

>>24526433
Your seething is very humorous to me, keep doing it. Reality is even medieval peasants have had better, longer, happier, less stressful lives than you since forever.

>>24526432
Is that really the point you think I'm making?

>>24525873
not a single argument, try to read spiritual authority and temporal power it's right in there buddy

>>24526441
The university was built in feudal times therefore we ought to build a caste system with no social mobility where you can't do anything if you're not born into a specific privileged group of people.
>This system has existed since the dawn of humanity, continues to exist in some way, and will always exist.
Then you're just talking about class or hierarchy, which I agree with. Caste is something else, it means a specific group of people who have privileged political and social rights above everyone else and the only way to get into that group is by being born into it.

>>24526448
Quote:
>>I could be born as a Jew in Tsarist Russia constantly fearing pogroms.
As for the rest, getting indians in this board won't better it. Maybe you're a pakistani kid or something, I have nothing against you if so but homogeneity is still optimal.

>>24526454
english race mixed mutt talking about homogeneity lmao

>>24526459
Why did you make that up, Rajeet? You have to go back anyways

>>24526462
celt, germanic, mediterranean. the english are a result of massive racial intermixing, which explains why they look how they look and act how they act

>>24526438
Appeal to toilet paper fallacy

>>24526454
I started with a colorful example and then ended with another example about how a good and socially beneficial trait can easily be sacrificed in order to attain homogeneity.
It's not about being Jewish or Indian specifically but that emphasizing cohesiveness and homogeneity will naturally discriminate against people who don't fit into that standard. If you so happen to belong to that group, either by an accident of birth or because of a rational choice, then the cohesiveness of society is hardly something you're interested in.

I mean, have you ever felt like the mainstream was wrong in some way? You realize that homogeneity is you conforming to them, right? The basis element for cohesion isn't centered on you.

>>24526467
It seems like you do not understand what homogeneity means.

Hint: It does not mean everyone in a society has to be 100% aryan retvrn to europa saar

>>24526469
>cohesiveness and homogeneity will naturally discriminate against people who don't fit into that standard.
Why is that bad? Because access to white people is a human right or something?

>>24526473
>race mixing is fine and acceptable

lmao, the modern right

>>24526473
>Why is that bad?
Well, for a few reasons, but here's one: A person may differ from the standard in a way that could be socially beneficial. Say a person supports a particular scientific model that the social collective rejects. Say that particular scientific model is actually true but because the person is denied the societal support to demonstrate its validity, the social collective suffers by continuing to believe in falsehood.
The root principle being that some differences are good.

>>24526481
A German and a Dutch fucking, isn't the same as the fetish porn you watch

>>24526486
are you retarded? you know they are both germanic right? america has truly ruined the proper understanding of race jesus christ

>>24526494
Your Aspergers missed that one, but without irony: You actually think two populations that have minimal DNA differences are "degenerate racemixing?" Are you on the internet crying about Scots fucking Poles or some shit? What a weird view...

>>24526498
yes, compare the uk to finland and you'll see how it is important.

>>24526484
This is a language problem, I do not mean banishing individuality, I mean ethnic homogeneity. Living around people that are genetically similar to you has mental and societal benefits

>>24526502
You're the most extreme eugenicist I've seen, albeit Italian girls will still be hot to me.

>>24526507
this was the standard view before modernity ruined europe

>iItalian girls will still be hot to me

you're basically into arabs bro baka

>>24526503
So far we've heard that we ought to establish a caste system (which, to be clear, means a social system in which a small group of people have superior social and political rights to everyone else on the basis of nothing but being born into that group, with no possibility for anyone to enter it via merit or exit it via incompetence) because:
>1. The British should not fight for the Rothschilds
>2. Some people who are ugly have argued against this view
>3. The university system is corrupted by private interests
>4. Universities were established in feudal times
>5. Ethnic homogeneity is good
Literally none of these points even come close to constructing an argument for the proposition that we ought to establish a caste system. It is baffling to me how you can consider yourselves genetically superior aristocrats while being inveterately incapable of making a sound, logical, clear argument.

>>24526511
Do you have sources on that type of racemixing degenerating a species? I'm sure it does, as I'm a danish-french mutt and have Reynauds, heavy allergies, and hypotension.

>>24526514
>Taking ifunny memes seriously
Chill bro, no one talked about "ugly" or "rothschild" you can control+f. And the rest are strawmen which were responding to other claims. Also universities are still a feudal institution, if you know anything about them... Search up how you get your own lab, or fund research, for example.

>>24526514
Just like you haven't made any logical clear arguments for why egalitarian society is good, other than your feelings or how your dad was poor. It was a good conversation though, I'll write about this topic later.

>>24526503
Banishing divergent individuality comes under the domain of homogeneity and social cohesiveness, though. If you're only concerned with the ethnic case then that's fine but the conversation I've been involved in began with class, so it seems to me we're discussing difference as a conceptual, abstract thing.
Ultimately a society is going to need some way of handling certain degrees of difference because even an ethnocentric society will have different genders and age groups. I think it best that this be done in some kind of systematic way that can admit other groups, if need be, rather than live in perpetual anxiety of them, which is what the ethnocentric view always seems to imply.

>>24526540
Could you describe what Europeans would lose if they banish jews or africans? What great cultural enrichment?

>>24526514
Meanwhile your arguments

Your country should be flooded with indians because:
>1. My dad is poor
>2. I am an immigrant
>3. I want to get an useless degree in a fake college
>4. I personally feel bad

>>24526450
Nah, kys fag. Btw I've already read it, great book.

>>24526545
If you banish one group under the banner of social cohesiveness and homogeneity then there's no reason these abstract principles couldn't be extended to a host of other traits or even behaviors. It might also be deemed socially destructive to have people of differing political or philosophical views too, so why not expel them? At their limit, these principles turn against the social health they seek to preserve because a certain minimal germ of differentiation is necessary for society (male and female, adult and child).
This points to a need for conceptual qualification. It's not "social cohesion" that must be maintained but "social cohesion" under certain stipulations, under certain assumptions, of a particular kind of society. This qualification is crucial for making a society that doesn't punish any and all difference.

>>24526393
>"social cohesion" isn't valuable in and of itself.
Yes it is what the fuck lmao

>>24526594
It's not. The extreme example is that you might be oppressed by your society with no means of improving your lot. The cohesion of that society is hardly important to you. Consider the suffering child in Le Guin's The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas -- that everyone is living a utopic existence hardly matters to that child.

On a more nuanced level though, a certain amount of social discord is good if it allows for the creation of new ideas and the overthrowing of old or even harmful ones. Scientific debate is a kind of social discord. It relies on a difference, a break from homogeneity, that is tolerable because it seeks to benefit society.

>>24526613
>You can't have new ideas / improvement with social cohesion

??? just makes no sense

>>24526635
If social cohesion is valuable in and of itself then more social cohesion is more good. The success of new ideas is predicated on a certain level of social discord. So social cohesion cannot be good in and of itself. To restate what I said elsewhere, these claims require qualification instead of being treated as necessarily good.

>>24526640
>The success of new ideas is predicated on a certain level of social discord.
Wrong.

>>24526642
Okay then what do you mean by social cohesion?

>>24526656
Genereally speaking, when the people are united. "Social Gemenskap" I would say in my language (Swedish) but I don't know of a translation into English.

>>24526553
>Your country should be flooded with indians because:
I honestly can't tell if it's ragebait anymore. The idea of establishing a caste system has nothing to do with the idea of limiting or expanding immigration. You can have a caste system and have immigration, you can have no caste system and not have immigration.
>>24526534
Yes I have. I specifically said that the top positions should be filled by those most competent and skilled, and to discover who that is requires everyone to be given equality of opportunity. It is moreover unjust to not recognise the talents of those who do not have noble blood just because they do not have it, or to pretend those with noble blood are talented just because they have it. That is a logical, clear argument.

>>24526664
The people can be united behind a particular idea, that's what scientific consensus is. So that if there are two competing scientific ideas, the people are less united than before. This means science requires some level of social discord. If we take science as a good thing then social cohesion isn't valuable in and of itself. We are always requiring some discord.

>>24526682
I don't believe in any of what you just said.

>>24526682
Can you prove this, scientifically?

>>24526671
>I specifically said that the top positions should be filled by those most competent and skilled
Competent at what?`Skilled at what? You haven't thought this through. There are many competent / skilled hucksters, scammers, fraudsters, liars, deceivers, etc.

>>24526671
>specifically said that the top positions should be filled by those most competent and skilled
this doesnt happen in egalitarianism and is based on the prejudice that in a caste system the positions wouldnt be filled by the most competent for it overall
>It is moreover unjust to
Lol laughably wrong, start with the greeks. Read "The Republic" and say that again.

>>24526671
>It is moreover unjust to
Define "justice" without googling

>>24526709
Obviously at whatever they're doing... For example it used to be that to become a British military officer you had to be a landowning gentleman. It didn't matter if you distinguished yourself in service in the military, it didn't matter if you passed the entrance exam to the military academy with top marks, it didn't matter what your IQ or planning skills were. It's obviously unjust, and also damaging to the interests of the State, for a more competent commoner to be denied in favour of a less competent gentleman.
Did you really think I meant we need to select the most competent liars? Are you that dumb?
>>24526719
>Can't make arguments
>References random books he hasn't read
If I recall correctly Plato's system is ran by the most competent people, not a caste system, and he is so egalitarian he doesn't even exclude women from leadership positions. But you're just another retard. The Aristocrats aren't sending their best!
>>24526731
Define 'yellow'. We know it through acquaintance.

>>24526745
>Did you really think I meant we need to select the most competent liars?
Yes. I assume you haven't read Machiavelli

>>24526745
>Define 'yellow'.
Do you really think we can't define the color yellow? Jesus, the retardation... I'll ignore that and ask: What I call yellow is what you call yellow, but your "justice" isn't what I call justice. Why is this?

>>24526745
I don't really get why you keep seething about "aristocrats," it's really feminine (albeit you will never be a woman.)

>>If I recall correctly Plato's system is ran by the most competent people, not a caste system, and he is so egalitarian he doesn't even exclude women from leadership positions. But you're just another retard
lol Plato describes a caste system, mask-off moment from the pseud "philosophy PHD" wannabe

>>24526772
Yea I was just gonna say isn't a core feature in Plato's Republic a sort of caste system

>>24526745
>If I recall correctly Plato's system is ran by the most competent people, not a caste system, and he is so egalitarian he doesn't even exclude women from leadership positions. But you're just another retard. The Aristocrats aren't sending their best!
Plato believed in a police state, eugenics, a caste system, and state-controlled media and education. The state of /lit/ in 2025 lmao. Looks like the "rightoids" you keep crying about are right.
>>24526775
A literal caste system is all of Plato's Republic. It even goes further:
>In Plato's Republic, the "myth of the metals" is a foundational allegory used to explain and justify the ideal society's class structure. This myth posits that each citizen is born with a soul composed of a specific metal, determining their social role: gold for rulers, silver for auxiliaries (soldiers/police), and bronze (or iron) for producers (farmers and craftsmen)

>>24526764
Yes, you really can't define yellow. You can offer a sort of physical definition by reference to the electromagnetic spectrum but this will never capture the notion of yellow as it is in experience. This is precisely why it's theoretically possible that everyone experiences colours differently (for instance my yellow might be your green), and we would have no way of knowing. I can't believe you, being an aristocrat and therefore superior to me by blood, don't know this.
> your "justice" isn't what I call justice. Why is this?
It is, you are just being contrarian. I highly doubt you even have blue blood, at least it's statistically unlikely. If you were serious you'd be advocating for your own enslavement.
>>24526772
>I don't really get why you keep seething about "aristocrats," it's really feminine (albeit you will never be a woman.)
We are talking about whether we ought to establish a caste system. Only someone posing as a member of the nobility would defend such a notion, so I am obviously making fun of you. I don't think any of you are actually noble-blooded aristocrats, you just pose as such.
>lol Plato describes a caste system, mask-off moment from the pseud "philosophy PHD" wannabe
Cool, I never read the Republic so I don't know, I thought the idea was you'd have people trained in philosophy in charge of the state, and that it would allow women as well. I had no idea it was a caste system based on bloodlines.

>>24525825
Literal ooga booga man from five thousand years ago already understood human biology better than current leftoids lmao

>>24525819
Read the first book you're supposed to read by Guénon, retard. It's in his Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines:
>First of all we will give the following definition ; caste, which the Hindus describe indifferently by one or other of the two words jati and varna, is a social function determined by the particular nature of each human being. The word varna in its original sense means “ colour,” and some people have attempted to see in this a proof, or at least an indication, of the supposed fact that the distinction between the castes was originally founded upon racial differences ; but this is not a tenable view, for the same word bears by extension the meaning of “ quality ” in general, whence its analogical use to denote the particular nature of a tieing, or what might be called its “ individual essence ” ; and it is in fact the latter which determines caste, racial considerations intervening merely as one of the elements capable of exercising an influence upon the constitution of the individual nature. As for the word jaiti, its proper meaning is “ birth,” and some have therefore concluded from this that caste is essentially hereditary...

Read the fucking guy you're posting about.

>>24526791
You have more serious mental problems to address before you do any philosophy. Like schizoid rambling about "aristocrats" and "blue blood" when no one has ever mentioned it.

>>24526787
>>In Plato's Republic, the "myth of the metals" is a foundational allegory used to explain and justify the ideal society's class structure. This myth posits that each citizen is born with a soul composed of a specific metal, determining their social role: gold for rulers, silver for auxiliaries (soldiers/police), and bronze (or iron) for producers (farmers and craftsmen)
Hell yeah, that resonates with me a million times more than any "leftist" or "communist" myth about muh worker's rights. You read this and you just know Plato was Based.

>>24526798
A caste system is defined as a social order in which a small group of people have superior political and social rights to everyone else and that membership in this group is only to be obtained by being born into it. You cannot (or at least almost never can) ascend to it by merit, nor exit it by incompetence. That is the caste system as it was implemented in Europe and India. If you're proposing something based on merit then I already said I agree, but that's egalitarianism (equality of opportunity).

>>24526791
>Cool, I never read the Republic
Yeah we can tell
> I thought the idea was you'd have people trained in philosophy in charge of the state, and that it would allow women as well. I had no idea it was a caste system based on bloodlines.
Because the most competent are determined by 1. bloodline 2. training. And no one talked about women. Women are also in the castes and have the same rights as men. I think you're just not cut out for all this "logic" and "philosophy" stuff to be honest. You probably should go work on soldering or whatever your dad does.

>>24526810
Meds, now. What does that have to do with you saying I have blue blood and calling me an aristocrat?

>>24526787
>>In Plato's Republic, the "myth of the metals" is a foundational allegory used to explain and justify the ideal society's class structure. This myth posits that each citizen is born with a soul composed of a specific metal, determining their social role: gold for rulers, silver for auxiliaries (soldiers/police), and bronze (or iron) for producers (farmers and craftsmen)
This doesn't imply that this is passed down from father to son, and that there is no social mobility. I agree that people are naturally inclined and suited for certain roles in society, I just don't think it ought to be based on blood but on individual merit. But like I said I haven't read Plato.

>>24526800
You can't understand a metaphor? (That's the myth he tells people to keep social order)
>>24526823
Read the book, it is literally what he says. You're reaching above your competency. You'll look back on this later and cringe.

>>24526812
Cool, I don't care what Plato said, he was wrong. Have you got any arguments?

>>24526829
Your existence is my best argument

>>24526827
Ok, do you have any arguments or do you just want to appeal to authority repeatedly? Plato was wrong.>>2

>>24526836
I don't need an argument because you already lost. This is just pillow talk now. Cute twink.

>>24526834
I come from a working class family yet went to an Ivy League where I obtained top grades in philosophy and maths (minor) and now make close to $100k/yr as a 22 year old. My existence literally refutes your idea of castes.

>>24526836
My argument: I wish you were my feminine commie girlfriend who embarrasses herself talking about Plato then berates me.

>>24526839
I lost on one point, the contents of Plato's republic, which I haven't read, everything else I won

>>24526841
Yeah and my dad works for Nintendo. $100k/yr is nothing nowadays unless you're living in a flyover state. Also you're cute.

>>24526843
Aren't you the guy who thought you could define yellow? It seems like you're only good at referring to other people's work and not making arguments on your own

>>24526847
Yeah whatever you say, now bend over.

>>24526855
So I see you've stopped trying to even pretend to make arguments.

>>24526854
I'm the guy with a big white dick thinking about you rn. And you're the twink that said Plato loves democracy.

>>24526859
Keep talking dirty to me.

>>24526836
>LALALA FUCK YOU PLATO WAS WRONG

The modern left, gentlemen.

>>24526868
Back off, he's mine. :3

>>24526868
It's not even left-wing to say you want a caste system. Almost no country in the world apart from maybe some Gulf monarchies has a caste system today. The right today believes in meritocracy, the left is the one pushing the caste system for minorities ironically. Not being into your medieval feudal larp is not being left wing.

>>24526880
>The right today

>>24526880
You're so retarded, like a real woman, it's so cute :3

>>24526885
yeah I don't like the Trumpian right as it's full of idiots and populists but I'm just pointing out your dishonesty to try to call everyone who disagrees with you left wing

>>24526880
>>24526891
What was the point of you getting philosophically raped by me for like 2 hours?

>>24526891
>to call everyone who disagrees with you left wing
No, just you who keeps seething about "right-wing"

>>24526891
I mean at this point you've admitted to not reading / respecting Plato, just go read Plato's "The Republic", it's a massive work that's stood the test of time and is to this day held as one of the chief works in exactly the area that you are rambling about, I'm willing to bet an author who has been and continues to be respected for 2000 years and wrote a massive life-defining work on the subject knows quite a bit more than you do because frankly you seem to be fucking retarded, nothing that can't be cured by diligent study so get to reading, you have literally no excuse.

>>24526894
You lost on every point lol and tried to focus on an admittedly stupid error I made by trying to relay information about the Republic second hand, then you took your 1 tiny win that wasn't even relevant to the broader point and started doing some gay spaz routine to shut down further conversation

>>24526905
I won every single point, so you have to bottom.

>>24526904
I have read Plato (Meno, Ion, Euthyphro, Crito, Apology, and Phaedo) just not the Republic.
The rest of your post is just appeals to authority I can point out famous authors who were against the caste system. Obviously I'll read the Republic one day but it's pretty pointless to bring up what someone else thought instead of just talking about the topic.

>>24526904
Keep in mind the twink said he makes $100k/yr with his "philosophy PHD" lmao. This 15 yo is so cute.

>>24526918
how tight are u x3

>>24526918
>I can point out famous authors who were against the caste system
But you won't though, am I right?

>>24526925
>>If I recall correctly Plato's system is ran by the most competent people, not a caste system, and he is so egalitarian he doesn't even exclude women from leadership positions. But you're just another retard. The Aristocrats aren't sending their best!

>>24526930
Your philosophy major, gentlemen. (Twink lives in his parents house)

>>24526925
You can't name an author you've read

>>24526930
I dunno if you're implying that a caste system can't have competent people in charge? That would be retarded though.

>>24526939
I'm quoting the cute twink saying The Republic isnt a caste system, of course a caste system is ran by the most competent instead of the most corrupt (egalitarianism)

>>24526947
Ah you were quoting him, I see, my bad.

>>24526930
>>24526934
I said IIRC, indicating I was unsure. Yeah I have a philosophy degree, just didn't read the Republic. Are you able to formulate an actual argument in favour of the caste system?
>>24526925
I don't think appealing to authority is important. I gave my argument against the caste system. Basically to attract the best people to the top positions you need to have universal access to education and social mobility. Otherwise you could have someone genius who never gets to fulfil their potential because of some dumb rule about bloodlines.

>>24526957
>Yeah I have a philosophy degree, just didn't read the Republic
This is why we need a caste system. You need to go back to carpentry.

>>24526957
> I have a philosophy degree
And my dad works at Microsoft. He's gonna ban you.

>>24526957
I think you've been soundly BTFO already in this thread, I don't feel like repeating myself just because you can't read.

>>24526962
Do you actually have blue blood or are you larping?

>>24526979
You guys are all incapable of forming syllogisms, it's always some non sequitur or appeal to authority

>>24526980
I believe you are a moron, that's about it.

>>24526986
We understand that you learned what "syllogism" means from a Destiny stream, no need to misuse it

>>24526992
I might be a moron or I might not be, it says nothing whatsoever of whether we ought to establish a caste system. And desu if I were to respond in kind (which I don't like doing because I want to talk about the issue), you are advocating for a totally infeasible resurrection of a medieval political philosophy which is bound to be opposed by 99% of the (in America, well-armed) population. And this medieval political system didn't come about because of abstract philosophical speculation but really because of an embedded history of war, technology and land ownership, so it's not something that can be just exported from its context. It's retarded frankly.

>>24527003
>I might be a moron

Your hottest take in the thread so far.

>>24527145
Well I take consolation in the fact that you probably don't even believe what you're saying as it's statistically likely you're just a commoner like me and in the system you're advocating for you would be basically enslaved. I guess this is some sort of cruel power fantasy for you, which is why all you have is appeals to authority and personal attacks. Anyway thanks for the totally unproductive discussion, lol.