Based or extremely based?

>>24533170 (OP)
calc 2 is shit and a waste of time
give me geometry and algebra like Plato says

Mathematics is one of the most disgusting subjects in academia. All it does it manage to convince scores of morons that they're demigods because they did well in an undergrad analysis course. This fucking retard even uses Calc 2 and Linear Algebra (just matrix theory lol) as filters, likely an engineer drone.
I'm so glad STEM is saturated.

Isn't the ancient Greek geometry Plato talks about basically the stuff you learn in elementary school?

>>24533221
Yep. Everything else is fake and gay.

Math is fake and gay

>>24533170 (OP)
can someone who knows his shit confirm my suspicion that this is a statement Plato made after he went kooky and got into numerology shit?

>>24533317
sorry to inform you but a straight line doesn't exist in universe, that stuff is fake too.

>>24533170 (OP)
Other way around. Anyone illiterate in Latin will have their degrees revoked.

>>24533352
we cannot recreate the traditions of the past in any meaningful sense. we must create our own using the knowledge passed down from them. guenon speaks on this.

>>24533389
Guenon converted to Islam while at the exact same time saying that Hinduism is better. Think on that.

>>24533402
he also chose Sufism while openly acknowledging that Catholicism was the potential center of revival of tradition in the west. im thinking on it and i think he found the esoteric tradition he was looking for.

>>24533409
He admitted he didn't. He never once had a creative thought. He just harped on popular subjects. He never developed his own sense of values or system of thought. He echoed much surface level material and never plunged any deeper. He missed the point of everything he talked about as a result.

>>24533170 (OP)
They should teach that stuff up to calc3 in high school, you shouldn't be able to graduate high school if you don't understand the basics and relationships of position, motion, and acceleration in three dimensions.

>>24533348
Line segments are the only things that matter anyway.

>>24533317
kys hylic

to be allowed entry:
>latin and greek
>french and german
>linear alg, calculus, arithmetic, geometry
>western history and world history
>rhetoric
>music (1 western instrument)
>drawing and painting
>computer science and engineering 101
>physics and chemistry
>geography
>Western Canon examination (Inquiry about your knowledge of 100 books, with a hard fail clause if you seem unknowledgeable about any of them)
>biology and human anatomy (including drawing)
>gymnastics
If you can't do pass these subjects, you shouldn't be allowed into university at all

>brags about doing a calculus class
>can't pass real analysis

>>24533170 (OP)
All BSc require using Lakatos / Feyerabend.

>>24533499
>Lakatos
he is recommended already in Stewart's (pre-)Calculus

>>24533502
that was Polya pardon me

>>24533170 (OP)
Well that depends if the door's shaped in a way I can enter in the first place. Knowing he knows geometry as well as he says he does it should be wide enough for my fat ass to fit through.

>>24533495
What if I just barge in with a firearm? Who's gonna stop me?

>>24533520
it is self-evident that all students in the polis are citizen-soldiers as well
you will perish like a dog for your transgression

>>24533495
>calculus
yuck, I'd rather stay outside

>>24533539
>cant complete a 1000 page math book

>>24533221
I always liked this epic bitchslap from Descartes against the ancient mathematicians (Peppus in particular), calling them charlatans and hucksters who had discovered easy mathematical ideas but safeguarded them from the plebs. I don't really know enough about math to comment on specifics.


> Thus the same mental illumination which let them see that virtue was to be preferred to pleasure, and honour to utility, although they knew not why this was so, made them recognize true notions in Philosophy and Mathematics, although they were not yet able thoroughly to grasp these sciences. Indeed I seem to recognize certain traces of this true Mathematics in Pappus and Diophantus, who though not belonging to the earliest age, yet lived many centuries before our own times. But my opinion is that these writers then with a sort of low cunning, deplorable indeed, suppressed this knowledge. Possibly they acted just as many inventors are known to have done in the case of their discoveries, i.e. they feared that their method being so easy and simple would become cheapened on being divulged, and they preferred to exhibit in its place certain barren truths, deductively demonstrated with show enough of ingenuity, as the results of their art, in order to win from us our admiration for these achievements, rather than to disclose to us that method itself which would have wholly annulled the admiration accorded.

>>24533170 (OP)
What the fuck is a calc 2?

>>24533719
It's american system of education lingo.

>>24533538
Nothing's self evident, retard

>>24533758
You are tautologically a faggot

>>24533495
Do anons get an ego trip from just saying things that will never manifest?

>>24533755
In that case, Hunter should suggest an entrance exam instead of having a required curriculum, since not everyone have access to the american educational system. And grades can easily be falsified or just false if the student have a teacher that gives out generous grades. But even then, those entrance exams should be scrutinized due to the excessive cheating that occurs during those.

>>24533711
He's not really talking about whether the mathematical ideas are easy or complex, just that they hid their method of derivation. The concrete example that Descartes learned from was Apollonius' Conics. The first book of the Conics is basically Euclidean in presentation, i.e., definitions and axioms, followed by demonstrations that are apparently proved directly from the aforementioned definitions and axioms. But in book II, props 44-51 suddenly show things in an entirely different light: a problem is presented, but then, instead of a deductive demonstration being performed, the problem's solution is granted, and by analysis, the deductive demonstration is worked out. This is what Descartes means about hiding the method. This other approach is what presumably (to Descartes, I don't know if historians of math agree) would've preceded the deductive demonstrations we see in Euclid.

>>24533417
> He never developed his own sense of values or system of thought.
Because the truth already exists and doesn’t need to be created you worthless hylic

>>24533847
>He's not really talking about whether the mathematical ideas are easy or complex, just that they hid their method of derivation

Well he’s implying the ancients knew more than they let on but hid their methods for various reasons which is why it is relevant. Greek and Roman mathematicians might have had arcane ideas that if discovered would lead on about how much they actually knew I take it.

>>24533170 (OP)
Why would I need calculus to study literature? How does algebra help me critically study Shakespeare? These retards won't be able to answer this.

>>24533847
The original comment
> Isn't the ancient Greek geometry Plato talks about basically the stuff you learn in elementary school?

The part of my excerpt I felt most relevant

> But my opinion is that these writers then with a sort of low cunning, deplorable indeed, suppressed this knowledge.
>> rather than to disclose to us that method itself which would have wholly annulled the admiration accorded.

I am sure their mathematics might have been more advanced than initially is assumed. His quote implies there’s more going on behind the scenes which the moderns might be lost on.

>>24533870
But again, he's not speaking to whether the contents of their math is simple or complex (and fwiw, I don't think Euclidean geometry is "elementary school" geometry by any means, it's elementary to the subject), but about method, namely, the method of analysis over the synthetic presentation as I described. His suspicion is that they didn't start with definitions and axioms and then derive proofs accordingly, but that this is for the sake of appearing to be exceptional, because deriving proofs that way would be an exceptional accomplishment. Rather, they assumed a given problem already solved, and by analyzing that solotion, worked backwards to develop the deductive proof. This is in fact what Apollonius does in the proofs mentioned above.

>>24533886
Oh, so they worked from the answer backwards. I am not a maths person so I don’t understand the intricacies but I can understand that.

>>24533893
Yes, exactly. It's harder to generate proofs purely through deduction from definitions and axioms, but working backwards is much more productive.

Maybe worth pointing out, though it's not the thread's subject, that Spinoza learned this from Descartes and approved of analysis over synthesis (the Euclidean presentation)...and then wrote his Ethics as a synthetic work.

>>24533495
Here's my list:
>2 years of mandatory military service without blemish
>2 years of farm work with no technology more advanced than was available in the 19th century, must grow all food and butcher all meat yourself
>2 years in a cloister with vows of silence and chastity
You're welcome.

>>24533170 (OP)
Answer this impossible question: Why?

>>24533910
Because girls can't do math and if girls can't get degrees they'll be reliant on husbands to provide for them and then incels will finally get laid

>>24533221
Euclid's Elements is much harder than anything else you'll learn until at least third year undergraduate, especially if you try to learn mathematics the way Greeks understood their foundations (so, no "space", no "ZFC axioms", no "Cartesian plane", no real numbers, tedious chains of explanations from one theorem to the next, etc.).

>>24533170 (OP)
Let's take it a step further and make complex analysis mandatory as well. But also for stemfags we should make philosophy, theology and literature courses mandatory. The separation of the hard sciences from the humanities and the arts has been a disaster for all three.

>>24533920
>But also for stemfags we should make philosophy, theology and literature courses mandatory.
But these things don't make line go up, therefore they must perish

>>24533909
>chastity
begone ye destroyer of nations

>>24533221 He is talking about this: https://archive.org/details/bim_early-english-books-1641-1700_the-elements-of-euclid-_euclid_1685

>>24533170 (OP)
cringe

>>24533170 (OP)
>>24534365
No, it's a riddle. He's saying anyone too dumb to understand the geometry of a door is literally, physically unable to enter one.

why stop half-way tho? the whole point of the calculus sequence is to get to differential equations which you can actually use to solve practical engineering problems

>>24533170 (OP)
Calc 2? No.

A difficult statistics course and three years of a difficult foreign language? Yes.

you need calc 3 to understand stochastic gradient descent tho this guy seems like a mid who did some shitty degree that only required up to calc 2 otherwise why would anyone think that is a good stopping point?

>>24536068
>you need calc 3 to understand stochastic gradient descent tho
who gives a shit?

>>24536068
I think because calc 2 is the great filter for a lot of aspiring STEMfags
I know more than a few people who wanted to be engineers, couldn't pass calc 2, and quietly switched their major to something in the social sciences or just dropped out and went into IT.

The bigger filter at my school though was organic chemistry. We had one professor in particular who probably shattered thousands of dreams during her tenure. I was no where near the sciences and I hated her through sheer osmosis.

>>24536072
u need to use sgd to do back propagation in deep learning u may have heard of this shit called ai its kind of a big deal

>>24536078
yeah, and you need to know organic chemistry to formulate drugs. you may have heard of this thing called heart medication, it's kind of a big deal.

>>24536075
yeah calc 2 is just hazing like leetcode interviews

There are more calculative and more contemplative ways of thinking (and hence arguably even forms of intelligence, corresponding to these forms of thinking).
Actually, I’d wager that very often, having significant enough intelligence in being able to either read or produce more challenging or deep works, whether of philosophy, theology, and literature, and beyond what the public typically reads or even could read, generally means they also have some baseline greater intelligence such that, if they WERE interested in mathematics or logic, or are made to classes on them, for instance, they’d generally also do better than most people, including especially if they really applied themselves.
Put simply, if you’re a smart enough dork to read (and want to read in the first place) Plato, and with a good degree of comprehension, getting significant things from his works, you likely also have a high enough degree of intelligence that you also did well enough, in high-school math classes for instances. However, it doesn’t mean you’ll be the top at it. There can be (and likely are) the STEM-oriented or math kids who’ll do even better than you, specifically in something like math. They excel at calculative thinking.

However, the greatest, most seminal works of literature or philosophy typically have more of this contemplative (as opposed to strictly calculating) thinking behind them. About abstract concepts and first-order principles. Studying language itself, or the very meaning of being, or any sufficiently abstract concept like that, is far from being workable on a calculator, or from knowing the Pythagorean theorem being able to help with it.
Someone can be a human calculator yet totally unhelpful when it comes to deeper philosophical thought; or when it comes to beautiful literature and art, either enjoying or creating it. Shakespeare might not even be able to tell you what 14 x 14 was off the top of his head, let alone know linear algebra or calculus, yet Shakespeare is Shakespeare. On the other hand, there are some autistic savants who are literally like human calculators. Also literally autists, not just the meme idea on here and Reddit where it’s used to refer to how “I’m so quirky and socially awkward XD!” but I mean literally very autistic, or sufficiently mentally impaired enough that they were special ed kids when young. But some of them, again, have something up with their brain where they can do very impressive things, like you asking them to multiply 123 x 123 in their head and you getting the answer soon.

I knew one who knew the day of the week of every possible date you could give him in the modern designated CE/AD (Current Era/Anno Domini) Gregorian calendar (e.g. right now it’s 9 July 2025 AD/CE).

>>24536110
You could ask him, “What day of the week was September 11th, 1865?” That day happens to be Monday, and in this example he would say Monday. You could list other dates, over multiple centuries, and he would think a little and say what day from Monday to Sunday it’d be. And he was right every time. You could look it up online or on your phone’s calendar app, and he’d be right. He’d just have to think for a second and tell you which of 7 days it was.

But that doesn’t tell us anything about the meaning of being, and it’s extraordinary, but also an instance of using the human brain as essentially just a calculator, or (relatively) simple software program (where the really impressive thing isn’t really the coding that went behind it, as it’s likely simple enough to create a program that’ll tell you what day of the week any date of form MM/DD/YYYY is, using our modern calendar conventions, but rather the amount of data that compute can crunch and then quickly give back to us - but even then, this is just the computer, or software, outclassing humans in calculative speed and ability tremendously, but it was still human intelligence behind it, coming up with simple rules of logic then all the way to computer science and programming, that allowed this to be at all).

We can turn the brain into some extraordinary calculator, people can even look up and absorb techniques and formulas to do impressive things like on the fly accurate yet huge calculations, but mostly that’s not much than a parlor trick, and it’s also such a limiting of the extraordinary potentials of the human brain and mind, a constriction of the domain of all it can work with.

>>24536110
>>24536116
shan't be reading any chatgpt have a nice day

>>24536127
You’re dumb for thinking it’s AI, sorry. You mistakenly take all long enough effortposts where people focus enough on good reasoning, vocabulary and grammar to some extent, as “AI.” It’s just part of the general dumbing down of humanity today.
Also, I accidentally made numerous spelling and grammar mistakes in it anyway, ones which annoyed me when I look back at the post but at least show it’s authentic. This was written by me spontaneously.

>>24533495
you and the simple farmer are all the same. you bleed the same and you will both die. ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

>>24533170 (OP)
Idiot drivel based on tradlarp.
What you actually do need is extensive courses in statistics. That’s all academia revolves around in pretty much every discipline. It’s also shockingly absent from math fundamentals, which leaves most, even the ones who took math courses, woefully unable to deal with the one constant they need to know.

>>24533170 (OP)
I am a masters student of Philosophy yet did not pass GCSE maths at school. I got a 1 or G. I took a distance learning course and earned an access to Higher Education Diploma, in which I got the equivalent of A*A*A* in my grades and was thus given unconditional offers for undergraduate degrees in all of the Russell Group Univerisities which I applied for. I then graduated from University with First-Class Honours. If you're an intelligent White Man who is just incapable of doing more than basic Maths it doesn't really matter if you're not interested in STEM.

>>24533170 (OP)
gay

>>24533502
>Stewart's (pre-)Calculus
/sci/-tards shill this a lot is it any good for a mathlet

>>24533170 (OP)
I don't know about calculus but set theory should be mandatory for everyone

>>24536141
To think making mistakes is the only way to know whose human.

>>24536110
>>24536116
Please be brief. It was entertaining but abit winded especially when you started talking about autists

>>24536961
Uncle Ted with the life advice

>>24533495
To what degree? All of these fields (especially STEM) are so complicated, technical, and specialized from accumulated knowledge that learning one thoroughly would be a Herculean task. All of them across a wide variety of disciplines and practices, though? That’s genuinely impossible.

>>24538041
>learning one thoroughly would be a Herculean task
>doesn't speed read and listen to podcasts
Ngmi

>>24538050
If I had a penny for every podcaster of YouTuber who misrepresented a philosopher, scientist, or artist I would be rich.

>>24533918
>Euclid's Elements
Assuredly not the case. It's quite literally baby's first textbook, any child can understand it if translated correctly into the local language. Half the battle with Elements is people getting autistic about translating its concepts because it's now so old that the thing itself has implicit aesthetic value beyond its utility. There is a way to turn what's in Elements into a simple child's textbook, and there is a way to turn what's in Elements into a labour of history.

>>24539017
This guy thinks little kids are reading Euclids elements

>>24539234
He's an idiot, this anon keeps trying to make this case in almost any thread Euclid is brought up in.

>>24533468
Majority of office and government work is done by functionally illiterate workers. If you can use a copier and a fax, you qualify.

>>24533170 (OP)
Geometry... of all things to be elitist about. Philosophy is a fucking meme.

>>24533170 (OP)
Would filter women and shitskins, so of course it'll never happen because we need to be le inclusive

>>24533170 (OP)
Weird this thread is up because I've been thinking about and talking about Euclidean geometry lately. Maybe you were inspired by one of my posts.

>>24533402
I think you misunderstand Guenon, he dont gaf he just want trad pussy

>>24533170 (OP)
That person hasn't read Plato either way, so don't bother with his opinion.

>>24533909
Is this a shitpost as in "picking the most slaveish low class things possible?"

>>24536251
le everyones the same bro!!!
>please just let indians in saar

friendly reminder that modern mathematics branched off of magical and alchemistic attempts at uncovering and utilizing the hidden forces of nature, especially via numerology. dont let the STEMlords know because it might ruin their ability to take their alien language for granted any longer

None of these suggestions really matter since the universities would just water them down anyway. The problem isn't the subjects being taught, it's the level of rigor they are being taught at.

Then, my noble friend, geometry will draw the soul towards truth, and create the spirit of philosophy, and raise up that which is now unhappily allowed to fall down.

Nothing will be more likely to have such an effect.

Then nothing should be more sternly laid down than that the inhabitants of your fair city should by all means learn geometry.

This is what's said in republic, Socrates says before this that applied mathematics is useful but not what you should be aiming for but instead to just simply learn and wonder should foremost be the goal, this is in contradiction to what that cuckulus guy is going at

>>24533170 (OP)
I'm not sure if it's necessary to make people do proof-based courses at the level of Rudin or Axler, but I don't think linear algebra is that hard, and I don't see why more students shouldn't be required to take it, given its ubiquity in applications nowadays.

>>24540699
What does Socrates say about applied mathematics? It sounds like you haven't read plato

>>24533170 (OP)
I don't see how this would fix anything. Like >>24540567 says the issue is built into the classes and professors.
If he means it as an intelligence test, we already do this. Decent universities in the U.S. require above their set minimum score on the SAT which is little more than an IQ test.
Lower-tier universities stopped filtering with SAT scores because they aren't trying to produce well-educated, specialized graduates; they are trying to make money. More elite universities allow less intelligent students in because of DEI, and any minimum requirement that let them skirt the SAT minimum would also let them skip over his required classes.

>>24540753
It's irrelevant what Socrates thought about applied mathematics. You genuinely need some level of knowledge of Linear Algebra to read a sufficiently advanced physics or engineering textbook, and by sufficiently advanced I mean undergrad-level.

>>24540754
How does this relate to what plato said?

>>24540772

Math should be kept secret from people who aren't going to pursue real math. If we had kept it secret none of this bullshit called civilization would exist. Engineers and code monkeys are evil.

>>24533221
Being a metaphysician, Plato is talking about a metaphysical understanding of certain numbers and their coupled geometry. Not exactly the elementary geometry you learned in school. That isn’t every single number of course, after a certain point you just have a measure of quantity.
His mathematical understanding was for the most part Pythagorean.
Contemporary math for him would be an autistic philosophical Tower of Babel. Neither connected to physical reality or infinite truth.
I don’t think the statement made by the op picture is too bad of an idea though to put some limit on college admissions.

>>24540775
It doesn't

Socrates/plato made a pretty blatant distinction between pure and applied mathematics and gave the pure mathematics priority over the applied, the Twitter fag in the op doesn't understand this and many people responding to this thread also don't understand this

>>24533170 (OP)
If folks want to call themselves a 'university', it'd be awfully fucking nice to see universally useful standards applied to the folks wandering out of them.
No exceptions, banish them to the fields if they won't raise their heads from the trough.
Elsewhere ITT: boo-hoo, but these old shithaeds said I didn't need to worry about how buh-huh-baaaaaad the math teacher and them kids made me feel

>>24540872
It can be boiled down thus- that to Plato (and Descartes too for that matter if you're interested) mathematics is the backbone of existence and the only thing of actual certainty because even if our physical world were illusory, mathematics would of necessity still be true. Mathematics is as true to the world of Forms as it is here on this plane of existence. Mathematics just IS. It cant be fragmented the way everything else is- a copy of its Form.

>>24533170 (OP)
Maths was utterly buck broken by radical skeptics. Math trannies are nothing without their belief and retarded axioms where all of retards say yes in cult like echochambers. Your autistic equations are no more "true" than drunk man babbling in the pub.

>1+1=2 is true because....because it is okay?
Agrippa's Trilemma sends regards.

>>24540979
Can you elaborate on this.

I’ve always had a skepticism of maths. For example, real analysis and the concept of a limit etc did not fully exist for 100 years or so while calculus was being used and applied with few issues. That alone suggests excessive rigor and caring about formal logic / proof obsessively is mostly mental masturbation. Godels incompleteness also turned me off of studying “pure” mathematics. I was always skeptical of people who assert things like “universe is a mathematical system” and “math is the language of the universe” etc. I think the “uncanny effectiveness of math in the natural sciences” is just that, a funny coincidence. Mathematical structures do not exist anywhere outside of human minds. Math is invented, not discovered, and it is occasionally useful. I took a proofs course and an analysis course and yeah it was weird and abstract, but a skill you could practice and improve on like any other. I don’t get the near mystical adoration heaped on pure maths.

people who become engineers or scientists aren't called great thinkers ,but smart slaves.

>>24541218
>Can you elaborate on this.
I am not capable of doing so because I know very little about Maths as a discipline.

Maths is just a tool in the toolbox of humanity to do shit. It is not more "objective" than poetry or fables or rock music. Maths like whole knowledge stands on blind belief in its axioms like 1+1=2. Why 1+1=2 and not 1+1=82354324? Apply Agrippa's Trilemma >>24540979 on this "truth" and see how it crumbles. Math trannies worship the God of probability, they have blind faith in its axioms like christcucks have faith in Bible.

>I don’t get the near mystical adoration heaped on pure maths.
We are mystery making creatures. So whenever they want to sell some bullshit they make it mystical. Just read Outlines of Skepticism.

>>24541256
That last part is very true in my experience. Ritual, storytelling, and ritual theater/theatrical practices are the most universal human behaviors. Any human culture, no matter how isolated form others, will do these things. Similar to making a spear/bow/arrow. It's just what humans do.

>>24541256
Number replies that they are two and not one, and are to be distinguished from one another.

What did Socrates mean by this?

There's nothing wrong with being well-rounded in different subjects. Also it wouldn't hurt to have autistic STEM fags read some literature and history as well.

>>24540979
Radical skepticism is a perfect example of why thinking too hard makes you retarded.