Can you spot the pattern?

>1806:
>battle Napoleon vs Prussia
>Prussia lost.
>It was determined it was due to the fact the Prussian soldiers had studied the Trivium. (grammar, logic and rhetoric)
>They were thinking too much when they should just follow orders.
>After this the Trivium was reserved for the elite.

>1950s:
>The Soviet Union put the world's first satellite in orbit, Sputnik.
>America feared lagging behind, and being nuked.
>In response America did a number of reforms aimed at making America more competitive against the Soviet Union.
>This included New Math.
>Euclidean Geometry was removed from public school.
>There's logic in it.
>Can't teach that to the slave class, they need to be taught how to obey, not how to think.

>>24594200 (OP)
>It was determined it was due to the fact the Prussian soldiers had studied the Trivium. (grammar, logic and rhetoric)
>They were thinking too much when they should just follow orders.
>After this the Trivium was reserved for the elite.
I always had a feeling the nation-state was behind the death of classical humanism, and now it all makes sense. You see this in other countries too that all boot the classical education at some point in the 19th century to create a bourgeoise bugman class that can keep up with the purely quantitative output of other nation states in all fields.

>>24594200 (OP)
Read John Gatto.

>fat retard creates a parallel out of his ass and projects it as a world historical fact, chapter 4351

>>24596366
spotted the public school teacher

>>24594200 (OP)
They won like 6 years later
And they didn’t lose because of the Prussian Soldier they lost bc of bad leadership

>>24594200 (OP)
Our elite are committing civilizational suicide and nobody is breeding

>>24594200 (OP)
3/4ths of this sounds like your personal headcanon

>>24594200 (OP)
Math is inherently logical. And why would a spldier need some old dead guy knowledge anyway? They're soldiers, not librarians.

>>24598656
>a spider

>>24598656
>Math is inherently logical.
Doesn't mean you know logic because you've studied math. They skip the foundation of math which has logic and give you a hollowed out version. Theorems, axioms, proofs etc in Euclidean geometry are about deduction, you learn that you learn actual logic which can be transferred to other areas of life, it encourages critical thinking. You haven't studied logic. Here's a book:

https://courses.umass.edu/phil110-gmh/MAIN/IHome-5.htm

Another book:

https://archive.org/details/logicorrightuseo00watt

More books:

>>24594082

Books and other stuff:

https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/508076799

More school stuff:

>>>/pol/511880153

>>24594200 (OP)
>>Euclidean Geometry was removed from public school.
Since when? Every person I've ever met took geometry in middle school, the basis of which is Euclid's axioms.

>>24598772
I said Euclidean geometry. I didn't say geometry. So what if it's the basis? They don't learn Euclidean geometry which is where you learn logic. They learn a hollowed out version of math. They learn math but they don't learn the foundation of math which is where the logic is. They get rote memorization, not comprehension. Again, you haven't studied logic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_proof

>>24594200 (OP)
Not really, no.

>>24599807
The pattern is they were spurred on by an enemy to become more competitive and achieved it by removing logic from the masses, turning them into mindless NPC machines.

>>24594200 (OP)
Being logical doesn't make you rebellious and an independent thinker. People aren't mental slaves because there's a maze of confusing mind puzzles they aren't equipped to escape. That's childish. Get a job at a big tech company. I did. I met people schooled in math and logic and they were some of the most subservient boot-lickers I have ever met. Why? Because they were addicted to comfort and status. Fear and insecurity keeps them clocking in and taking orders no matter how stupid they may be. That's how you control people. You make them fearful that if they don't do what you want they will be poor nobodies forever, social rejects who will have to scrape by. This idea that learning "how to think" will awaken this superior person who values liberty inside of you is childishly naive.

>>24599839
You know nothing about logic and are just spouting the notions you're brainwashed with. Secondly you're making various assumptions which I said nothing about in the OP. There was nothing about rebelling etc. Right now you are one of those people who have not studied any logic at all, and know nothing about logic, and yet have many opinions about logic and about what logic is, all of which are utterly uninteresting. Read this book.

https://archive.org/details/logicorrightuseo00watt

>>24599868
I took symbolic logic in college and worked as a software developer for a decade. You're just a dumb kid.

>>24599909
You committed ad hominem in your post.
>>24599839
>That's childish.
Logic used to be grammar, logic and rhetoric as a unified system, as one subject. They divorced logic from grammar and rhetoric, and hollowed it out in order to make people able to work as programmers without actually learning critical thinking. See pic >>24598746 You aren't in the 0.5%. Programmers are the middle tier, cogs in the machine, not thinkers. Today actual logic (critical thinking, the Trivium) is only taught in elite private schools like Eton College, in Freemasonry, and in yeshivas.

>>24599839
It makes you better able to understand and articulate causality and thusly *why* you are afraid and insecure. If you can't communicate it, you are unable to confer with your other bootlickers to determine its validity.

Also this: >>24599924

>>24599924
"Critical thinking" is not the master key to escape mental slavery, retard. You believe a lie. People are enslaved to their desires and having to run an artificial financial hamster wheel. It has nothing to do with people's inadequacies at mathematical reasoning and deduction. I'm sorry you're a fedora tipping naive young faggot. Maybe you'll grow up and see the obvious one day.

>>24599938
Are you denying what I said in the OP? That logic was removed from the masses in 1806 and in the 1950s to make them obey their superiors rather than think for themselves, and thereby make society a more effective machine? I'm presenting facts and you're countering with unsubstantiated opinions.

>>24599938
Also there are different kinds of conditioning. One kind is where you're conditioned to have a certain emotional response to stimuli. Another is where you're conditioned with propositions. Every time you hear "X" your mind has the conditioned response "X is Y". This is thinking but thinking without reason, hypnopaedia in Brave New World. You can't condition with reason, but you can break out of conditioning with reason.

https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/huxleya-bravenewworld/huxleya-bravenewworld-00-e.html#chapter02

https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/503426619

https://archive.ph/ZR5g0

>>24599984
Being logical doesn't matter if people are perpetually afraid and comfort seeking. Logic can be used to construct coping mechanisms it's not inherently truth seeking. Some of the most fearful conformists are the most educated. Stop worshipping logic like it's the source of everything good in the world.

>You can't condition with reason, but you can break out of conditioning with reason.

Ridiculous platitude. Conditioning with reason is called "college".

Fear and desire are more effective at keeping people controlled than keeping them ignorant. Cope.

>>24600045
The vast majority of college graduates haven't studied logic/critical thinking. You know nothing about logic and yet you're giving opinions about logic, again, your opinions are totally uninteresting. You would benefit greatly from studying logic, but your conditioning will prevent you from doing it, exactly as designed.

We are conditioned to associate fear with certain stimuli. Studying logic makes you see when a fear response in you is arising as a purely conditioned response to stimuli, and you can then question whether there is any substance to it, and whether it needs to keep being that way. If you study logic you will experience this but you are just running the script which is LOGIC BAD, I'm literally talking to a bot.

I literally posted several sources backing up the statement that logic is reserved to 0.5% of the population, not the entire group of college educated people. You totally ignore this and keep yapping about muh college. I'm done with you. Study logic before you attempt to argue.

>>24600102
LMAO. I'm not saying logic bad, you simpleton. I'm saying it's not sufficient. There exists internally consistent logical systems that are total bullshit designed to fleece believers. You're the one with the zealous bot-mind who wants to worship a false god. Grow up, pussy.

>>24600125
Again, you have strayed quite far off from where this thread started. I presented facts. Again, are you denying those facts? You inserted your unsubstantiated opinions and then you've been running that sidetrack. Learn to see what the point is, and learn to address it.

>>24600045
>>24600125
nta, but I just wanted to chime in to this debate to tell you you're wrong and the other anon is correct. Logic, which is not inherently liberating, but whose proper application is a prerequisite for any mental liberation, can only be used to condition one through fear and desire if it's misapplied; meaning that on some level it's flawed logic. You are like the metaphysical equivalent of a person saying walking is bad because it might be used to lead one off cliffs, or that walking is useless because you can't walk your way to God.

Secondly, there is no hard divide between fears/desires and logic because logic is not a THING, hence logic is not the highest thing, and you can't claim anon is being a hyperrationalist. Rather, logic is, like said above, akin to walking, an act, a doing -- you can either walk through life properly or stumble around like a retard -- but unless you're positing some kind of botched neoplatonic dogmatism, logic is not a THING, at least not in common parlance. Just like walking is not a 'thing.'

In fact, one's fears and desires, which are tangible things are usually the product of and go hand in hand with an inability or paralysis to apply logic to one's life. Hence nowadays there are literally talking therapies designed to teach patients various types of logic and how to apply it to their life in order to manage their FEARS AND DESIRES. This is essentially the stripped down core of what a true education is, the ability to think clearly and thereby subordinate fears and desires that cripple the unlearned man. A dichotomy between these two things only exists in your illogical mind.

>>24600136
>LOGIC is my GOD!!!!!
This thread is fucking boring. Good lord. Pseuds everywhere.

>>24594200 (OP)
It is a travesty that the science of how to think, which is not only inseparable from, but the proprium and ipsissimum of any education worth the name, is no longer taught to us. The entirety of our learning in such a case can only ever be the trappings of learning, or to quote Marlowe
>This study fits a mercenary drudge,
>Who aims at nothing but external trash;
>Too servile and illiberal for me.
Faustus. (1.1, 32-34)

>>24600141
That outburst was already addressed in my post.

Back when Red Ice was good they had several pieces about homeshooling, the Prussian education system, the Trivium etc. I haven't even read/listened to all of them. Here are a few.

https://youtu.be/PhsYBM38W4g

https://redice.tv/news/you-are-the-solution-you-ve-been-looking-for

https://redice.tv/news/education-programming-101-destroy-logic

https://youtu.be/m2ItZzcHd4M

https://redice.tv/red-ice-radio/abduction-of-domenic-johansson-by-swedish-social-services

https://redice.tv/red-ice-radio/learning-vs-schooling-and-prophecy-vs-the-business-plan

https://redice.tv/red-ice-radio/school-sucks-intelligence-and-education-vs-schooling

https://redice.tv/radio-3fourteen/human-needs-control-and-group-think

https://redice.tv/radio-3fourteen/voluntary-and-non-violent-communication

https://redice.tv/news/the-origins-of-the-american-public-education-system-horace-mann-and-the-prussian-model-of-obedience

https://redice.tv/news/education-in-a-free-society

>over the 19th century germany was noted to be undergoing a cultural shift due to the prussian state which homogenized german culture into a prussian form, where previously germans went from a more anglo-like culture to a more collectivist culture. The kind that eventually wrote storm of steel and elected hitler
>america went from a small business freedom loving culture in the 50s to a corporate shithole that eventually elected orange man
I think I see the pattern.

>>24600178
I don't see the relevance to the topic.

>>24599924
"Elites" aren't elite because of an esoteric school curriculum. It's because they have money and connections. You're full of shit.

>muh logic
Ratio is the lower of the two powers of the intellect. Intellectus is where it is at bros.

Yeah, fear and desire must also be checked. Really, they just need to be properly oriented towards the Good, the Beautiful, and the True. The rational appetites must reach down and shape the lower ones. Finite human participation in the Logos is not the Logos. The Tao that can be named is not the Eternal Tao. The Logos is without begining or end.

Reasoning is important, but attaining the Gnosis is the absolute goal. To attain the Absolute, nothing frees one as much as the perfect clarity of the higher goal.

>>24600396
>trying to get high up the ladder when the lower rungs are broken
ok retard

>>24600483
If we're actually talking about brains here then the lower rungs regulate body functions and emotions, dummy. If you're an unhealthy emotional wreck your cerebrum won't save you.

>>24599909
>i know logic, i'm a software developer
kek

>>24600125
>i'm not saying logic bad, you simpleton. I'm saying it's not sufficient
What's missing then? Because if the answer's knowledge, let's be honest, there aren't too many people blessed a sharp ability to reason who are totally uneducated. I am often told the opposite as well, it's no use knowing a great many things if one lacks critical thinking. Boy, I have never met anyone who's read a thousand books and doesn't have the slightest trace of critical thought. Have you? Postulating such people exist is like chasing unicorns.

>>24600910
logic isn't just critical thinking

>>24600910
People have to choose truth-seeking over self-preservation and comfort. It's honesty that's missing. Atomized individuals in a multicultural morass all have to fake it until they make it. The most celebrated "successful" individuals in the current era are all lying addicts who shuffle money around and project a persona on social media all day. Look no further than all the fraud happening in Academia, the reproduction crisis all the bullshit studies to support agendas... weak women and feminized men concerned with self-preservation and social advancement wearing the skin-suit of institutions that are supposed to pursue truth. They make a lot of noise. A lot of words are and data are all getting shuffled around. A lot of it is internally consistent and logical but it's built on the wrong foundation.

>>24602302
But a lack of honesty is in plain contradiction with logic. Any dishonest approach to a claim implies the claim or any supporting argument to be deliberately misconstrued, that is, a flaw in reasoning. The only way to not be honest and still uphold logic is to refuse to discuss a proposition.

>>24602361
Mr. Spock isn't real. He's a character, anon.

>>24602302
"I studied at college so I know logic!"-post no. 20 by you. No, you know nothing about logic. You're not even discussing the topic which is that logic was removed from people like you. It's no wonder you can't see the point when you didn't study logic.

>>24602803
Shaddup, you obnoxious fart-huffing faggot. You're either a retard desperate for (You)s or you're a shill trying to convince everyone that "elites" aren't all nepo-babies but have exclusive access to the elusive "real logic." You're a bullshitter who doesn't deserve to steer a conversation. So uh fuck you.

>>24603405
You really suck at argumentation. I suggest you study logic. I gave materials here: >>24598746

>>24594200 (OP)
>battle Napoleon vs Russia
>Russia won.
>It was determined it was due to the fact the Russian soldiers had studied the [X]

??!!??!!?!

>>24599868
You don't know what new math is or why it failed

>>24604040
There's nothing to argue. You're a zealot and stupid.

>>24594200 (OP)
You honestly need to provide 3 or more examples to establish a pattern.

>>24603405
lol why do you keep replying, both of you are talking past each other
You are describing the fact that ultimately, a man must act (true) whereas OP is talking about the dearth of logic in our “education” system and its negative effect on society (true).

>>24599924
>You aren't in the 0.5%. Programmers are the middle tier, cogs in the machine, not thinkers. Today actual logic (critical thinking, the Trivium) is only taught in elite private schools like Eton College, in Freemasonry, and in yeshivas.
>>24604668
Shit like this screams "demoralization shill" so I'm gonna call OP a stupid faggot. Oh well. I'm doing a public service.