Thread 24594264

Seems like everyone likes Buddhism these days and it's the only doctrine shown in an absolutely positive light, but I'd like to hear some criticism of it

>>24594264 (OP)
Heard this is good

>>24594264 (OP)
It's life denying. It's not just simple asceticism to develop a rich inner spirituality, it's purpose is to quite literally seperate yourself from all life drives and desires with the ultimate goal of oblivion.

>>24594264 (OP)
The people and very well respected scholars of the tradition claim a concrete, practical guide to achieving the goals of the religion, such as reduction to suffering and achieving peace, but there isn't really replicable experimentation you can do to confirm it. No Buddha auras, walking through walls, tantric powers. This can be chalked up to the remoteness perhaps of the more hardcore practitioners, but some manage to make it to podcasts and speak of their experiences. They also tend to misuse scientific discussion and literature, "le quantum physics proves nothing is real!", which always makes me cringe really hard, no different from a highschooler in physics class talking about how cool it is that Schrodinger's cat is both alive and dead. That being said, they do have a more interesting and deep understanding of the nature of experience and the responses to sense perceptions and their natures than many westerners, to be expected when one spends 50-70 years trying to pick apart the nature of your own mind. There are some wonderful analytic works, but there is also at the core of the ideas "the dharma", uncaused ,not birth nor life nor death, which is a touchy topic if someone here is educated about it, but causes incoherency in the analytic side of the practice. It is basically unjustified exceptionalism. I could talk more about it, but to someone unaware and maybe deciding to study such I recommend doing so only if you are particularly interested in the improvement of self awareness, categorization of experiences, and finding the sheer ignorance we have about such. I suppose if you literally want enlightenment or freedom from desire, though I wouldn't trust dedicating my life to such, I don't know any other practice that seems to have as much weight and effort behind it.

Criticism of Buddhism is just about arguing in good faith
Nibbana is utter annihilation. No amount of post-hoc rationalization can make this any less true, and Mahayana has tried to brush it under the rug by making up concepts that are totally not atman but it still doesn't change anything to the fact that the soteriological aim of Buddhism, as >>24594383 put it, is oblivion beyond anything conceivable.
That being said, all dharmic religions are life-denying, Buddhism is just more forward about it

Its widely recognized as the pseud poseur religion in my part of the world

>>24594264 (OP)
Why are there so many Jews writing books about Buddhism?

>>24594264 (OP)
There is no way to criticize any broad religion like that because all the different traditions aren't saying the same things. There is no Buddhist doctrine. The average Theravada Buddhist in Thailand is gonna believe completely different things from the Jodo Shinshu Japanese, who is also gonna believe completely different things from the Gelug Tibetan, and they all would find the westerner following Alan Watts to be weird.

>>24594264 (OP)
You are trying to criticise nirvana from samsara, it's retarded, samsara is all you know.

>>24594404
Because it's nihilism dressed up in fancy eastern aesthetics

>>24594397
What religions are not life denying

>>24594897
Holy Orthodoxy

>>24594949
Trvke

>>24594397
>That being said, all dharmic religions are life-denying
KYS degenerate Christcuck.

>>24594264 (OP)
https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Buddhism enjoy

>>24595137
>The fundamental tenets of Buddhism are marked by grave defects that not only betray its inadequacy to become a religion of enlightened humanity, but also bring into bold relief its inferiority to the religion of Jesus Christ. In the first place, the very foundation on which Buddhism rests-the doctrine of karma with its implied transmigrations-is gratuitous and false. This pretended law of nature, by which the myriads of gods, demons, men, and animals are but the transient forms of rational beings essentially the same, but forced to this diversity in consequence of varying degrees of merit and demerit in former lives, is a huge superstition in flat contradiction to the recognized laws of nature, and hence ignored by men of science.
Christianity is just atheism lol

>>24595137
>In short, Buddhism is all but dead. In its huge organism the faint pulsations of life are still discernible, but its power of activity is gone. The spread of European civilization over the East will inevitably bring about its extinction.

Guénon said more or less the same thing. We, cultured Westerners, have only an academic view of Buddhism, and it is this academic aspect that makes Buddhism very attractive with streams of thought like EBT, Zen, Dzogchen, etc.
But one must not forget that Buddhism practiced by Buddhists is 99% rubbish. Even at the time of Sankara, Buddhism had disappeared as a major organized religion. For 99% of Buddhists, Buddhism is an idolatrous and superstitious religion. In the West, most Tibetan Buddhism practitioners have no notion of metaphysics; they just pray to Tara. Such Buddhism is merely a new-age church.
Today, there are a few Buddhist masters (among tens of thousands of snake-oil sellers) who are genuine and interesting, but these do not attract the interest of Buddhists.

>>24594264 (OP)
1. Buddhism takes a life-denying sentiment, which seems to have been caused by the hot and humid climate of India (where everything is constantly growing and rotting at the same time, being outside for most of the year is just painful unless you are lying down in the shade), and claims that it is the most correct view not only for all humans, but for all sentient beings in all realms of the universe.
2. Related to point 1: its onthology is extremely restrictive in its definitions of what counts as "real." For example, it claims that there is no such thing as self because it is composed of elements (dharmas) and lacks a "core." But self is a structure, and a structure is more than a sum of its elements. In addition, for some reason it introduces the notion of things being cause/uncaused and claims that things that are caused are not fully real, or, at least, should not be taken as completely real. Once again, it makes zero sense, unless this has a therapeutic meaning of helping a practioner to detach from worldly things (and Buddhism seems to point in this direction, recall the parable of the poisoned arrow).
3. The idea of inevitability of karma falls apart unless we accept eternal rebirth (yes, I know that, technically, as there is no self, there is also no reincarnation in Buddhism).
4. As >>24594404 pointed out, there is a fact of many Jews being suspiciously enthusiastic about promoting Buddhism in the West, sometimes under the guise of "mindfulness." This alone should make one very suspicious.

>>24594383
>>24594692
You're saying something that isn't objectionable from the standpoint of Buddhism. Any Buddhist scholar will tell you "That's the whole point, to stop craving and with it further rebirths." That's like criticizing Christianity on the basis that it promotes chastity - you'll be told it's a core tenet and even virtue leading to your wellbeing. At the very least, a criticism of Buddhism must include why existence is ultimately good.
>>24594409
They do ultimately believe in the same thing (the noble truths, no self, the reality of samsara, cessation of suffering through cessation of desire etc) but between themselves discuss the various paths to enlightenment. They argue about whether enlightenment can be instantaneous or gradual, do you go to a pre-nirvana heaven or not and can you (or should) come back from stream entry to save other, oblivious beings who cling to existence. The ethics are completely the same, the core mechanism of samsara and nirvana is mutually agreed on and most important of all; they all are on good terms among each other. It's not like Christianity where they fought wars on the basis of whether Jesus was both God and Man of God as separate entities at once or the same in a superposition.
>>24594578
What you said is a misnomer because nirvana is a complete lack of perspective, because it's a complete lack of any concepts or anything at all. The only thing it might contain is pure mind, but not even that because there is nothing to be perceived by it. So if nirvana is all there is, then existence is a curse. The only thing stopping you from suicide is the fact that you'll be born again as a rat or in hell, meaning it's up to your next round to not crave, even suicide.
>>24594949
You can't really criticize Buddhism from the point of Christianity because it doesn't have any fleshed out apologetics against it. You just have the standard position against all heresies at face value - they're heresies because they don't follow the Holy Scripture and the teachings of the Church (Fathers). In other words, don't think much about it, just ignore it all as demonic lies. But there isn't much critical review of Buddhist doctrine to be found just as you do for other religions like Judaism, Islam, (hellenic) Paganism or Gnosticism. It's an especially interesting topic because people refer to some similarities of both religions all of the time and the fact that, because of it, people are leaving for Buddhism which seems more "sophisticated". A famous Buddhist monk and westerner by birth went to East Asia after reading De Imitatio Christi, so it's a real topic that people want real answers to.

>>24594383
>It's life denying.

This is the most blatant misinterpretation of Buddhism I keep reading everywhere. But I don't blame you, anon, scholars in the west have done a pretty poor job in translating many of the key doctrinal terms from the Buddhist liturgical languages (Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan, etc).

Phenomena, and by extension you, not having a self (sunyata) does not mean you cease to exist and get removed from the world. If anything, realizing sunyata through practicing the Buddha's teachings makes you realise how you're part of something much greater than yourself, something beyond the pitiful dualisms under which we operate daily.

Likewise, many misunderstand and parrot the wrong notion that "Desire causes suffering", and hence we should not desire; we should stay completely inert, passive and watch life pass in front of us. This is again a gross interpretation of the concept of "tanha" it has been mistranslated as "desire" when it actually stands for the desire that rises out of ignorance, and could be more aptly described as "thirst" or "craving".

I suggest you give a second opportunity to Buddhism by reading some authors that come from Eastern lineages and not just westerners who approached Buddhism later in life. Then you will see how Buddhism is completely life-affirming and empowers you to live a wiser, more compassionate and fulfilling life.

Picrel is my recommendation. Traleg Kyabgon did a wonderful job in transmitting a lot of the core buddhist teachings to westerners without secularizing or distorting them. Read it, and you'll understand that the Buddhist path is one of vigor, commitment and unrelenting effort and practice, not just a passive withdrawal from life.

>>24595329
>2. Related to point 1: its onthology is extremely restrictive in its definitions of what counts as "real." For example, it claims that there is no such thing as self because it is composed of elements (dharmas) and lacks a "core." But self is a structure, and a structure is more than a sum of its elements. In addition, for some reason it introduces the notion of things being cause/uncaused and claims that things that are caused are not fully real, or, at least, should not be taken as completely real. Once again, it makes zero sense, unless this has a therapeutic meaning of helping a practioner to detach from worldly things (and Buddhism seems to point in this direction, recall the parable of the poisoned arrow).

But this is just logical, awareness is totally different from what the awareness is aware of and can be totally independent of it, since our awareness doesn't come from anything in particular it, awareness itself is the Purusha, it is independent from phenomena that are literally anatta (not-I)
Nihilism comes from the fact that most Buddhist schools believe this awareness to be the "consciousness aggregate" (i.e what would be for a materialist the neuron pulse in our brain), which is not only self-contradictory but also makes the spiritual path pointless

>>24594401
India?

>>24594264 (OP)
Buddhism only exists in the West because of the theosophists who were like "it's like, totally christianity but different," even though it really isn't the same species of thought. As we reach the end of the very short rope that extends from the death of God in the public consciousness, which is really only the death of organized religion because it is not possible to truly kill the connection between each person and God, the children of the children of the 60's are starting to realize that this "freedom" thing maybe isn't all it's cracked up to be. Unfortunately they, we have been inculcated to hate Christ and Christianity so a lot of people who thought they were smart picked up the books of theosophy and made basically a Christianity without Christ out of Buddhism. In many ways Buddhism, when White people do it, is just Manicheanism. Google that one when you have a free weekend, would you? All that aside when you look into Eastern sources on Buddhism they are all hilariously not religious. They aren't unified on any points, they don't really believe that God cares what you do on Earth, heck they don't even really believe in anything comparable to the triune omni-etc God of the West. Only a multitude of figures all varying degrees of complicit in maintaining the eternal cycle of suffering with a crack here or there suggesting that maybe, someday, somehow there is something better for the soul to find peace in. Christianity on the other hand posits that those cracks have opened wide into a gate, that gate has a name, and He is present in the lives of every human being with the purpose of guiding them to Him and through Him.

How did you like my polemic anon

>>24595372
Divinity consists not in any content of consciousness, but in the unconditioned ground of its affordance.

>>24595332
>It's not like Christianity where they fought wars on the basis of whether Jesus was both God and Man of God as separate entities at once or the same in a superposition
Sorry we actually believe in things

>>24595360

the fundamental goal of buddhism is non-existence, which is the correct goal, becuase life sucks. let's face it. there is no reason for us to be here and you can cope like a monkey and try to reproduce like a rat but the truth is the truth. your existence is nothing more than a sick joke of nature. Buddha understood this very well.

Anyone in this thread who thinks
>the goal is non-existence
Here is a CONSTANT phrase you will hear uttered by anyone who has dedicated their lives in the east to the practice
>it is not life, it is not death, it is not birth, it is not unbirth, it is not caused, and it is not uncaused

It is certainly a dodgy vague topic to the uninitiated, but i think the word "truth" would be something that is closer to what nirvana actually is than non-existence or oblivion.
Maybe would like an anon that actually has an understanding of emptiness, dependent origination, ignorance, the fires/poisons, and the chain of causation (from buddhist cannon/academia/practice) that believes its something like oblivion/nothingness to present an argument.

>>24595529
>it is not caused, and it is not uncaused
To the uninitiated, this certainly sounds like contradictory mumbo jumbo. Is it also both not real and not unreal?

>>24595529
This is not true, the Buddha said that Nibbana is uncaused in the Nibbāna Sutta :
There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.

>>24594383
>It's life denying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamantaka
>Within Buddhism, "terminating death" is a quality of all buddhas as they have stopped the cycle of rebirth, samsara. So Yamāntaka represents the goal of the Mahayana practitioner's journey to enlightenment, or the journey itself: On final awakening, one manifests Yamāntaka – the ending of death.

>>24595496
The fundamental goal is buddhism is becoming an omniscient immortal god

>>24595589
you didnt read my post, sir.

>>24596022
nevermind, i can see the point, im the retard. That being said, it is nonetheless repeated and described as such by many. my bad. and thanks. what is it then but not oblivion/nothing?

>>24596016
That was not the goal of the Buddha, but yes, some Buddhist cults or branches have inserted their own fantasies.

>>24596028
>what is it then but not oblivion/nothing?
nta, but because it is the ineffable source of all things.

>>24595529
Early Buddhists (including probably the Buddha) were always careful not to tell the truth about annihillationism, because it would be suicidal for their movement. There have always been "two truths" in Buddhism, and the Buddha was careful to dodge telling the hidden truth (annihilation), though it was the obvious implication of his teachings.

>>24596028
Like the Dao no one will be able to tell you dude. And indeed different teachers will seemingly be pointing in opposite directions and you have to sort of triangulate the constantly-shifting target that is your mind.

>>24596047
It's not obvious, it's your christcuck cope and utter failure to understand what has been explained to you repeatedly. Find an actual teacher. You're not suited to self-study of Buddhism.

>>24596047
What the fuck are you even talking about ? Consciousness doesn't cease after Nibbana the Buddha is very clear and unambiguous:
>CONSCIOUSNESS, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world

Nibbana is equated with "consciousness without surface" (viññanam anidassanam), the Buddha consistently describe the Nibbana-consciousness as clear and serene, bliss and awareness...
Indeed there are some schools of thought, teachers, that equate consciousness with the vinnana aggregate, but this is not the doctrine of Gautama

>>24596083
Of course it does, because consciousness is itself an illusion arising out of the five aggregates. There is no permanent self and hence no consciousness. There is nothing after death, no reincarnation, no heaven, no hell, nothing. But this is a bitter truth pill so obviously they are not going to say this clearly.

>>24596047
There was a successful school of materialist atheists at the time of the Buddha who viewed death as complete annihilation, if Nirvana were annihilation the Buddha would not have to hide it

>>24596041
The Buddha is omniscient and immortal, parinirvana is an illusory display for the sake of sentient beings

>>24596164
>>24596165
The Gulf War did not happen.

Buddhism is so diverse that there's always some other branch someone use to "disprove" a critcism. See just look at this motherfucker here for a perfect example.
>>24595628
He can point out this one BRANCH


Abrahamic faiths have actual cohesive systems. Buddhism does not have a coherent view, it's just a flexible set of tools.

>>24596041
Ah yes the one single definite concrete doctrine of Buddha

>>24596277
>Abrahamic faiths have actual cohesive systems.
Not really. Just read about the views of Mandaeans, one of those most ancient Abrahamic cults that have survived up to this time.

>>24596422
>literal who Gnostics

>>24596422
Ah yes this unbelievably niche group forming approximately 0.001% of the abrahamic religions population, very good

>>24594383
No, the ultimate goal is to accept life, by getting rid of the desire for an "ideal life", buddhism Is probably the most life affirming religión active today, next to taoísm, a religión Is life denying when it sells you a "better life somewere else" in a distante paradise, created by an abstract god that can't manifest here

>>24596476
Go to sleep Louis

>>24596083
That's just describing nibbana not paranibbana, the conciousness Is unbound, but after death the unbound extendsbto conciousness itself
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/vinna%e1%b9%87a-is-not-nibbana-really-it-just-isn%e2%80%99t/
>>24596164
>There is nothing after death
There's nothing conditionated

>>24595372
>what the awareness is aware of and can be totally independent of it
Awareness Is an action like talking, you can't be aware if there's nothing to be aware of, just like you can't talk if there's no words

>>24595360
This anon gets it

>>24596498
If Buddhism is so great why can't he be explained without indian words huh smart guy

>>24596526
Because there's things that exist beyond semántica systems

>>24594383
What's wrong with oblivion?

I think life-denying is a loaded way of putting on it, it's more about accepting death and the cessation of life as a facet of the totality, not a negation of life in an unbalanced, weighted sense.

Buddhism is a gnostic allegory intended to game the psychology of the human animal into a more structured and organised life at the individual and societal level and allow for some natural variation and foibles without the whole thing spinning out into an overexcited morass like we see Western/globalised industrial society has so quickly done to the world. The the no-self nihilistic stuff stops people getting too uppity and promises them none of this matters enough to be worth getting too torn up about because we're all just a mad nonsense at the end of the day and will forget it all when our gestalt comes to bits, the karma stuff helps manage human behaviour at scale, the reincarnation stuff stops half the population immediately killing themselves out of suffering and making the other half unhappy, and the non-attachment stuff stops people getting into bad habits that last generations and cause society to go through big boom and bust periods or ecological disaster. It's a way of trying to self-stabilise the madness of the human animal and work things out to the best happy medium without promising too much that people would get up in arms about if it didn't deliver. In a way it's sort of an absurdist religion so I can't criticise it too much, it's intentionally gaming semantics too much to be torn down semantically, the worst you can say is it's lost its purchase with global society as the regional cosmological folklore it expresses itself through has gotten lost in the mix as civilisation spirals out into a morass of junk information.

>buddha
>nibbana

>>24596165
>successful
they are successful they don't even exist anymore

>>24596557
Oblivion doesn't exist, except as a simulation.

>>24594949
I dont think you know what life denying means

>>24595068
Islam and Christianity mog all dharmic religions, muslims chopped up hundreds of cow worshipers and won a war against them recently

Paul Williams wrote the standard University introduction to Mahayana Buddhism and he returned to Catholicism
You can read The Unexpected Way: On Converting from Buddhism to Catholicism by him
Anyway I think a lot of Buddhist aligned works in the West are actually quite critical of Buddhism
For example secular Buddhism and the mindfulness movements are all full of people who felt an attraction to Buddhism, realised that despite what they had been told it was a proper religion and either left or decided to create their own form of Buddhism
For me I just don't find Buddhism as a philosophy to be that powerful since I'm completely lacking the Ancient Indian philosophical worldview to appreciate Buddhist critiques and beliefs
As someone from a Buddhist background who is more of a free thinker, I love Buddhist concepts in art and even devotional texts but I believe that God is the ultimate creator of everything and God is causeless and eternal

>>24595332
>They do ultimately believe in the same thing (the noble truths
According to some, like the Nichiren sect, that is just a provisional teaching and not that important.

>no self
Dhammakaya tradition in Thailand disagrees.

>cessation of suffering through cessation of desire
Unless that desire is chanda, in which case it's good.

>The ethics are completely the same
Whether you can eat meat or not is a big difference between sects. Whether monastics should remain celibate like most Buddhists believe or whether you can be a married Buddhist priest like the Japanese believe (Vinaya code adherence in general in fact) is another point of disagreement. The relationship between Buddhism and violence also changes a lot depending on the time and place. Hell, Japanese pure land has a completely different relationship with ethics and rules than any other sect since they have an almost sola fide like doctrine.

>the core mechanism of samsara and nirvana is mutually agreed on
Buddha says in the Lotus Sutra that nirvana is just upaya, an illusory city and temporary goal to motivate monks into the true goal of becoming future buddhas. Nagarjuna said that nirvana is samsara and samsara is nirvana which I'm pretty sure is not the Theravada belief.

>>24596536
cant even answer my question without attempting to cast spells

>>24596687
> Dhammakaya tradition
you mean cult

>>24596476
You are right, but for many people "life-affirming" means hedonsim

>>24594383
this thread is for criticizing buddhism anon

>>24596687
>Buddha says in the Lotus Sutra that nirvana is just upaya
No, the arahat path Is an upaya to become a buddha

>>24596165
>the Buddha would not have to hide it
If he did not hide it, he would be as "successful" as they were. That is, nobody today would have heard of him. There is a certain level of pragmatism required for all religious founders, and the Buddha was no idiot.

>>24594383
To be fair, and I am nowhere near a Buddhist at all, more of a classical semideist Catholic if such a thing exists, but a lot of economic ideologies (pitiful replacement for revealed religion) especially Marxism functions simply with the existence of material consumption. It sets the agenda, which philosophies such as Buddhism attempt to dissolve the will to want, negating the need for ideological replacements like Marxism or capitalism to exist in the first place. However, we exist in material reality, like it or not, so if a second coming approaches it can dissolve all ideology ex materia into something eternal.

>>24594264 (OP)
buddhism is true

>>24594383
For all the varieties of buddhisms you can say pretty much anything, but this isn't really true

>>24594383
>quite literally seperate yourself from all life drives
No, only the craving for things to be permanent
>ultimate goal of oblivion
Refuted by Buddha, nihilism Is with eternalism one of the two extremes to be avoided in the middle path

You're critique Is for a western starwman of what buddhism really is

>>24596687
>Nagarjuna said that nirvana is samsara and samsara is nirvana
Not really, he's saying that nirvana and samsara don't posses a substantial difference, but that's because for nagarjuna substances don't exist as an eidos, which isn't really contradicting theravada since to them substances are more like the atoms of the material world and not a metaphysical property of samsara or nirvana

>>24594264 (OP)
I was into Buddhism but disappointed after getting a bad trip. I felt a powerful derealization and thought for a long time that the Buddha was just stoner or schizophrenic.
>>24594949
Worst form of Christianity

>>24596422
Ah yes, one nearly-extinct Gnostic ethno-religion undermines the three major Abrahamic religions (four if you count the Baha'i), numbering over half the planet, who have all reached a consensus on there being one omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent God that established His covenant with Adam, Noah, and Abraham.

>>24594949
How can a denomination which can't even agree on a single canon be right?

>>24594264 (OP)
The jesuits that first visited Japan wrote about how greedy and corrupt the monks were.

>>24594264 (OP)
One of the problems with Buddhism is that it promotes forsaking the world and escape to somewhere better. Christianity on the other hand has the final vision of the union of Heaven and Earth at the End of Time where the world and life are resurrected, transfigured and redeemed. That to me is a far more satisfying conclusion to existence than just checking out into oblivion.

Also, a question I have for buddhists is the idea of reality being an illusion. If it's an illusion then it's an illusion of what? In order for something to be an illusion it has to be an illusion of something, so what is reality an illusion of exactly?

>>24598720
Not universally. Some interpretations say that this saha world is Gautama's pure land, and only our ignorance sees it as an impure world. Some say, as already pointed out in this thread, that samsara and nirvana are the same thing and there is no other place to escape to. At least that is my impression from looking into East Asian Buddhism, what you're speaking about is in my understanding more similar to the Theravada position, but even then I'm not sure.

>>24596277
>Abrahamic faiths have actual cohesive systems

Because Abrahamic faiths revolve around exegetic traditions from central, allegedly divine texts.

Whereas Buddhism is based on experiential wisdom, of course supported by literature and commentaries. When you have a religion spreading throughout a vast and culturally diverse continent, you're bound to have different approaches to practice.

>>24594264 (OP)
Read shankara

>>24599593
His crítique of buddhism suck, he never understood pratikiasamutpada, never engagaed with madhyamaka and his critique of yogachara could be done to hisown advaita system
In general all His arguments against buddhism are strawmans where he critique a false buddhist argument or he already takes forngranted a vedanta point to refute a buddhist one, so he's just question begging mostbof the time

>>24598720
>One of the problems with Buddhism is that it promotes forsaking the world and escape to somewhere better.
Not at all, nirvana Is not a place, the Christian heaven on the other hand is totally a place
>the idea of reality being an illusion
You're confused, those are the hindús, the hindús believe this world(maya) Is an illusion

>>24599996
"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you" (Like 17:21).

People also tend to conflate *participation* in the life eternal (in the life of God, divine union), with life of infinite duration. Christianity involves both, but some forms, particularly in Protestantism, tend to flatten them out into a single thing. This, plus univocity, tends towards making God just one extra powerful being among many and Christianity entirely about avoiding an extrinsic punishment and gaining an extrinsic rewards based on an arbitrary, or at least inscrutable divine will. This is not traditional Christianity though, where the goal is theosis and God is being itself.

>>24599987
No actually his argument against Madhyamaka is very relevant, if Self is a metaphysical impossibility, as Nagarjuna claims, then how is there even an illusion of a Self ? We don't say for example "Vishnumitra seems to be the son of a barren woman", it would be strange and illogical, however for Nagarjuna we can say that "These aggregates seems to be a self " when the self itself is a logical impossibility

https://www.amazon.com/Way-Toward-Wisdom-Interdisciplinary-Intercultural/dp/0268020353

this is a really in depth dive into the sort of thomist metaphysics and as it's establishing the pieces touches on how different worldviews/eastern stuff compares and how they fall short or contradict it

also Nietzsche in general I think makes the best "anti-bhuddist/eastern religion" case I fucking hate those people so much indians are fucking animals and it's the worldview of a fucking animal. Ritual rape of children came to the west from bhuddism. Hate these people so much.

The whole embodied focused existentialist/phenomenological tradition in general I think is also helpful in response particularly when they talk about morally disgusting it is for people to reject nature/the body. Anyone who believes in reincarnation or that the body is an illusion or something is guaranteed to be the worst sort of person. Morality and rationality is rooted in our bodies structure and biology and anyone who reject it would rape a child (and they do specifically to detatch from our bodies structure). Same thing as the technocratic elites, that's why the CIA tried to push eastern stuff to normalize it in the 60s.

>>24600095
>Ritual rape of children came to the west from bhuddism.
source?

>>24596277
All forms of Buddhism are about overcoming death thoughbeit. Literally the opposite of life-denying, though to a naïve reactive gaze those two things look the same.

>>24596415
Yeah, it's called the Sutta Piṭaka of the Pali Canon.

>>24595260
>Today, there are a few Buddhist masters who are genuine and interesting, but these do not attract the interest of Buddhists
Post them. Nanamoli is one of these that you refer to, surely?

>>24596687
>According to some, like the Nichiren sect, that is just a provisional teaching and not that important.
It seems every religion is filled with these historically arisen deconstructionist cults that strip it to a nullity, when the original founder was pretty clear about what he preached.

>>24595446
>Christianity on the other hand posits that those cracks have opened wide into a gate, that gate has a name, and He is present in the lives of every human being with the purpose of guiding them to Him and through Him
So does Pure Land, though.

>>24596047
The Buddha was a reclusive mendicant, not a populariser. And he wouldn't break the fourth precept.

>>24596590
This is the best argument against Buddhism itt, yet it somehow really makes me want to become a hardcore Buddhist monk.

>>24600095
Moralfags and /x/ schizos can't into religion.

>>24600161
Why does every Eastern aesthete ask for a source when they're accused of something but we should never question the east when they accuse the west of promoting things like pederasty? Sounds like a double standard.

>>24600161
It just fits perfect sense when you think about it. If the goal is to disconnect from our individuality, instincts, wordliness a key way of doing that would be ritually intentionally going against them in the strongest way possible.
all the weird freak western sex magick rape people cite tantric bhuddism and their rape rituals as inspiration to harness sexual energies and dominate archetypal feminity or some garbage
there are some books on it but it's not something i've gone that deep into
https://archive.org/details/shadowofdalailamasexualitymagicpoliticsintibetanbuddhismvictoriatrimondimarkpenny_912_O/page/n1/mode/2up
https://web.archive.org/web/20190310221638/http://www.ptmistlberger.com/a-brief-history-of-tantra-and-western-sex-magick.php
this goes specifically over the influence, it came to the west specifically from people traveling to the east and learning it from eastern estoercists. they cite bhuddist ones specifically as well, Evola for example is one that cites the bhuddists.

>>24600184
No I think about the Ajahns from the Thai Forest Tradition that doesn't rely on the commentaries like Thanissaro and Sona etc... People that actually try to emulate the Buddha as shown in the Sutta Nipāta.
But this is very niche, in Buddhist countries most monks don't even meditate, although in the West the Thai Forest Tradition is a little bit famous, in the East this is not really the case
Likewise in the West most people think that Zen practitioner should rely more on meditation and realizing Buddha-nature, but this is not really the case in Japan where this goal is not really understood and people think this is a scholastic tradition, funerals, or something to cultivate Qi etc...

>Why does every Eastern aesthete ask for a source
>It just fits perfect sense when you think about it

>>24600311
>try to emulate the Buddha as shown in the Sutta Nipāta
If you actually read that, you'll see how utterly low-priority meditation really is for the non-stream-enterer (i.e. the vast majority of the sangha). I urge you to look honestly into the teaching of Nanamoli (also Nanavira, his predecessor).

>>24594949
Impressive, very nice
>>24595332
Nobody is leaving Christianity for Buddhism, this isn't the seventies

>>24600340
I hope this isn't too far off the topic but Bhikkhu Bodhi deconstructed Nanavira's views recently and it was quite a read. The title is "Investigating the Dhamma" and pretty much asserts the Traditional interpretation of patticasamupada in the face of modern Western revisionists. It pretty much puts to rest the idea that a suicidal English expat superceded 2600 years of Sanga members in understanding the most fundamental teaching of the Buddha.

>>24594264 (OP)
>I'd like to hear some criticism of it
The Jains are right

>>24600163
I'm western and asked for a source because I, like OP, am suspicious of the soft treatment buddhism usually gets from modern secular westerners.

>>24600292
Thanks. I've actually been reading about shaivism-shaktism tantra a little lately and trying to get a grip on how much these things are or aren't sensationalized or whitewashed.

Worth noting though that Sabbateans allegedly did child rape magic in the west well before anyone was importing jeet ideas. Cathars got accused of doing that kind of things too. And of course pedo clergy.

>>24600367
I will look into it, but I can bet he was filtered.
>suicidal
Ah, so you're a liar, a precept violator. Shame.

>>24600218
>The Buddha was a reclusive mendicant, not a populariser. And he wouldn't break the fourth precept.

Every single sutta (except for the first one which has 5 monks) has him surounded by up to hundreds of monks to whom he is preaching. If he was a "reclusive mendicant" who didn't write anything (since Buddhism was an oral tradition for hundreds of years), there would be no religion or philosophy of Buddhism to speak of.

Telling "two truths" is perfectly compatible with right speech, and illustrates in fact why the Buddha used the terminology of "right speech" in the first place and not "lies" because sometimes right speech means telling lies, whether you call them white lies or "two truths" and there are suttas that explicitly describe incorrect forms of teaching (telling one truth when the other truth should be told).

>>24600095
100% my dude

>>24600063
There isn't an ilusión of the self, there's an idea of the self, you can think of tons of things that doesn't exist or doesn't exist as how you think they exist, in this case the self if the craving for permanence of the pugdala, that's how the idea of an atta arise in the mind

>>24600016
1Still promotes the idea of a better place than this existence
2that's not traditional christiaity but the neo-platonic interpretatión of christianity

>>24597959
Yeah, that's typically how it works. Small exceptions can undermine large edifices. Even a small crack in a castle in just the right spot can cause it to collapse. Same with the brain. A small lesion in the brain stem will kill you, but you can handle lesions in the neocortex.
Abrahamists slaughtered most of the more interesting ancient groups like Mandaeans.

>>24594390
You're fired
>slowly anon begins to realize his life became a curse because of this post and never again shills his shitty brown hinduism

>>24600063
>if Self is a metaphysical impossibility, as Nagarjuna claims, then how is there even an illusion of a Self ?
By that lógic,Then how the illusión of parts and Time can exist? if they come from something different from Time and composite parts then thebillusion of the self can come from something different than an actual metaphysical self, if a form of Time and composite parts that are the base of the illusión actually exist then that destroy the notion of a partless eternal Brahman that cast maya,if Time Is an illusion then the self can be an illusion too

>>24594264 (OP)
Um there was this Harvard proffesor of religion who hated Buddhism, but he was really woke so I couldn't stand it.

>>24594264 (OP)
Anatta is obviously incompatible with reincarnation. Mahayana kind of gets around this by basically denying anatta, but theravada and zen are obvious nonsense. If there is no "you" then you're not trapped in samsara, so there's no reason to bother with buddhist practices or teachings.

>>24601041
>Then how the illusión of parts and Time can exist

Sankara never says one single time that parts and time, or more generally maya, are metaphysically impossible, but they're anirvacanīya : they're not Being like Brahman, but they're not Void either, they're just a lesser, contingent reality.
Sankara gives the example of a snake and a rope, we mistake the rope to be a snake, likewise we mistake Brahman (the rope) to be Jiva-the Me- (the snake), this illusion is solid because Brahman is Being, the rope actually exists, but for Nagarjuna we mistake Voidness, a pure impossibility, to be Jiva

>>24601109
>no reason to bother with buddhist practices or teachings.
That's quite a leap.

>>24601196
>they're not Being like Brahman
If they have being, then the aquire their being from Brahman, thus Brahman must have Time and parts, in order to give Time and parts their being ,their existence, or their being Is granted from something else, making Brahman not the only form of being, if they're different being then there's more than one being, thus Brahman Is not "being" just a different form of being, if they're a part of Brahma, Brahman posses time and parts which makes no Sense since he's partless and timeless

>likewise we mistake Brahman (the rope) to be Jiva-the Me- (the snake),
If we can mistake something that exist from something that doesn't exist, then we can mistake the aggregates that exist from the self that doesn't exist

>but for Nagarjuna we mistake Voidness, a pure impossibility, to be Jiva
Where does he said that?

>>24601109
Karma Is what "reincarnates"

>>24601109
The Buddha was clear that the purpose of his teaching was to answer the question of how do you escape (or minimize) suffering in life. The afterlife is inconsequential and he actively avoided engaging in these debates. What he cared about is this life and he formulated the Eightfold Path as the solution to the problem of suffering. So whether you believe in reincarnation or not, you can benefit from Buddhism. And yes there are "secular" Buddhists.

>>24601295
I can minimize my suffering by engaging in rampant hedonism and then killing myself as soon as my dopamine receptors are too fried. There is no "me" to hold whatever bad karma is generated by that, so who cares?

>>24601303
Not at all, that doesn't minimize suffering, that mínimize pain, suffering Is still active in state of hedonistic pleasure

>>24601307
If you're going to redefine suffering to be some vague concept that has nothing to do with pain then I don't care about it.

>>24601109
>If there is no "you"
There's an"you", but thisbyoubis not permanent and in control of the world, that's what anatta means

>>24601309
Then you don't care about buddhism, what are you doing here? You're just arguing against a strawman of your own creation

>>24601303
hedonists always have their "come to jesus" moment because they in fact lead lives of suffering. and their foolish attemps to drown out suffering with more pleasure/dopamine only compounds their suffering. eventually they can't take it anymore and like you say, commit suicide or become "born again"

>>24601311
Yes, yes, the concept of anatta that presents the self as something like a flame that changes from moment to moment so that it's actually a different self from moment to moment. In that case then the self that existed before death and the self that exists after reincarnation are two different selves, and since memory is not retained you can reasonably dismiss the other self as a separate person that has nothing to do with you. In which case there's still no "reincarnation" in any meaningful sense.

>>24601319
>n which case there's still no "reincarnation" in any meaningful sense.
No because the self that exist before and after rebirth are just as different as the one that exist from one moment to the next, each one changes thanks to the previous one, from moment to moment and from life to life, all of them are linked by karma, so they're not completly different things

>>24601295
>And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? ‘There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions.
https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false

If the Buddha only cared about this life he would've been a Carvaka

>>24601632
It's a rotter that due to autistic schizotypy I'm aware of all levels of buddhist reality almost simultaneously so I feel torn between various things at once and unable to act. "How can I hold the world in one hand and eternity in the other?" etc. ... I try to find the choice in each experience that leads to the most linear flow out of it but then that affects the good feelings too and feels like I'm glancing off of surfaces as I fall through eternity in a way that is increasingly agonising in itself. I should really just kill myself but knowing the agony the human body can experience + wanting to at least outlive my parents so they don't have to go through it (as they do not understand) has held me back til now. It's a total rotter of a time.

>>24601632
>>24601695
u guyz r been preddy dual rit now

I grew up Buddhist in a serious Buddhist family, and while I'm not a Buddhist anymore, these threads make fucking cringe because anytime anyone talks about Buddhism on 4chan half the replies are just made up headcanon tier shit.
When people on 4chan talk about something you actually have firsthand experience with, it makes you realize just how many of you are just shitting out words on a keyboard with zero thought behind it and larping.

Feels like most of the people replying here read Sam Harris or Alan Watts some other pop-sci mcmindfullness faggot trying to make money and evaluated it entirely based on that. Just to give you an idea of just how confused most Westerners are about Buddhism, I had a philosophy professor that also did religious studies in uni that was absolutely convinced that Bodhisattvas "delay" enlightenment, which is like the most repeated blatant misconception of all time that is corrected ad nauseam at pretty much every temple by monastics / senior students.

>>24600352
You'd be surprised, even when I was a kid growing up in temples, we had potential converts coming in all the time from the abrahamic religions. My mom and dad are still heavily involved and are part of a program to formally and informally educate new comers and the vast majority of them are from some christian background. A lot of these people have traumatic experiences in the big 3.

Funny thing is, Buddhism is technically dying, but Buddhists still don't proselytize, its written in the early Suttas that it would decline after a few thousand years, its written in the Sutras, the Sastras, Tantras, the Tibetan canon, the Agamas, all of them, that Buddhism would decline and eventually die fully but that it shouldn't necessarily be fought against because it'll lead to the turning of the wheel by another Buddha who will begin the next dispensation of teachings. This is one of the major things all schools and traditions agree on.

>>24600548
There is a sutta that describes how the Buddha had to be originally asked to teach because he just wanted to go off on his own. I do see what you're talking about in right speech vs radical honesty, though.

>>24594373
whats it about?

>>24594264 (OP)
Nietzsche should be an obvious read.

>>24601632
It's pretty clear that the only frame that really explains the Buddha's goal is the quest for Immortality and the Absolute, I find the claim that the Buddha taught non-self the destruction of consciousness etc... to be utterly laughable, Shakyamuni was someone who spent his life searching then teaching the way to Moksha

>>24601196
But that's like saying, what makes Time, Time, Is not Time or has any quality related to time

>>24601632
This is just a part of "two truths" doctrine or skillful teaching. Which is why in another sutta, you will find Right View defined as nothing more than the 4 Noble Truths.

The Buddha simply had no interest in disproving common morality. How would that have helped his movement? He didn't even disprove common religious superstitions in spirits, nagas, devas or Brahma. To him, all of that was inconsequential. If he was foolish enough to try do that, he at best would have been sidelined and faded into obscurity and at worst, would have suffered a fate similar to Socrates.

My criticism of Buddhism is that it's the right path but not for Westmen (White people).

>>24594949
Gypsy-tier tackiness
>>24594264 (OP)
Non-self is retarded. Pretty much every single school aside from Theravadans, especially the Tibetans do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify this doctrine because it is nonsensical. Respect to the theravadans and Zens since they just accept the doctrine and don't try to weasel around it like everyone else
>>24598134
As if the Jesuits can criticize anyone, they are literally the most corrupt and evil organization in church history. Also Abrahamics can't cope with any positive aspect of different religions so they just resort to slander.

Also not a criticism of Buddhism per se but Buddhism is in a worse state in the West than Christianity is. It's full of complete LARPers. I remember looking at the Buddhism subreddit a few months ago and the top post of the month or year was some guy freaking out because Trump won. It is no surprise a certain someone is grossly overrepresented in Western Buddhism

>>24602149
What is the right path for westmen

>>24601950
It’s about how mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

>>24600807
Not an argument.

>>24594264 (OP)
https://warosu.org/lit/thread/19914774#p19916304
Check this out op

>>24600292
I'm convinced that like 90% of occult and esoteric practices out there exist as a way to justify having gay sex. There are all these reports of Hindu sects and retards like Crowley and modern practitioners of what have you writing walls of text about harnessing le divine feminine and the left hand path and slave morality and bla bla bla and at the end of the day it always ends up being smoke and mirrors and window dressing used to dance around eating semen cakes or fucking each other in the ass, because getting fucked supposedly lets you "see higher realities" and whatever the fuck. Fags, the lot of them. Then on the flip side you have a billion movements dedicated to getting Abrahamic faiths to "get with the times" and "update their outdated rules" all so people can have gay sex guilt free. Like nothing about any religion matters if it presents an obstacle to getting fucked. Like the point of any religion is some vague thing having to do with being generally happy by getting to do whatever you want in a guilt free way and that includes getting to partake in all the degenerate sex acts you want because that's what happiness is, right? Right? The point of existence has always been for gross backwards people from the past to slowly develop technology and the modern worldview over time so that we, enlightened modern people, could realize how backwards they were and freely and joyfully participate in GAY SEX without any trifles like the question of nature or morality or the question of whether freedom is anything more than submitting to a particular appetite or another, that's the whole point, obviously. We're progressing! This is progress! And obviously all the occultists and hidden practitioners of the past were the prophets of what was to come, they realized that trifles like morals and laws were to be put aside in the golden age of the Current Year but were sadly oppressed by the evil gross backwards chuds of their time, who banned things like GAY SEX and whoring around because they were backwards and stupid. Clearly the ten thousand year history of mankind revolves around putting dicks in other mens' asses and it was only now with the advent of amoral secular hedonism that we could truly appreciate the enlightened few of the past, the secretive Hindu sects who practiced gay fucking as a way to see higher realities, the Sabbateans who practiced rape and sodomy to discover the limits of the holy through the profane, the devil worshipers who would kiss the cock of a satanic idol in a rite of breaking away from the morals of their time, now we can appreciate these people as the truly great, the world-striders they were, those who could glimpse the future afar off and see the brightness of its profusion of GAY SEX absolutely everywhere, the pink mush of humanity freed from the tedious chains of rule and law and nature and indeed anything other than the freedom to pursue one's appetites as they come and go.

>>24594383
Getting rid of all desires includes getting rid of desire for oblivion

>>24594383
The thing is, Christians and cultural Christian westerners have 'oblivion' by default anyway.

>>24603547
i think you might be right

>>24602622
In this day and age? They must be heroic in resisting the greatest evil of this age - antiwhiteism.


Right now they are a defeated people and any path spiritual or otherwise bends to antiwhite interpretations within their own minds as they have been so psychologically poisoned. This is why Christianity when interpreted by todays people is antiwhite in interpretation, native faiths or paganism, Buddhism or any other way as interpreted by the poisoned mind leads to poison.

When a healthy Western people comes, and it will take generations to undo the damage, it is to them who can uncover more of what is appropriate to Western biospirit, but looking to the best of theirs in the past we can see how they are closer to heroism and conquest of the unknown, not asceticism.

>>24603602
Esoteric hitlerism it is then

>>24602132
The four truths are transcendent right view because they lead to liberation from samsara, but mundane right view is necessary as a basis for cultivating transcendent right view. The existence of two truths does not negate the relative. At the time of the Buddha, rebirth was not such a widely accepted idea that he would've had to pander to it as a basic cultural belief.

>>24603673
Founded by an indiaboo who thought Hitler was an incarnation of Vishnu and Genghis Khan

>>24603673
Hitlerism it antiwhite, for multiple reasons. It also doesn't work, pursuing a path that doesn't work is not heroism. Western man in his spirit must pursue what is EFFECTIVE, within the context of today - the goal is the creation of a people, because though White people exist - they are not and do not act as a people.

Hitlerism doesn't create a people, it makes White people completely discard you and your ideas and gives them an excuse to run - and they are the audience you need to reach whether you like it or not.

>>24603743
I think all this talk of "White people" and the "White race" and "Aryans" is hopelessly misguided. No single race has ever been united the way people imagine when they use these terms. White people fought hundreds of bloody bitter wars with each other for thousands of years. So did Asians, so did Africans, so did native Americans. Skin color isn't nearly a strong enough unifying force or marker of community to hold a "people" together. It only kinda works today because countries either 1) have become melting pots of atomized people alienated from their heritage or 2) have become galvanized by excess immigration of non-white people.
Say the chuds do win and turn America into a white ethnostate. The very next day there would be conflict over which group really got to seize the reins of power - the libertarians, the evangelical protestants, the MAGA republicans, the coastal elites, the urban democrat types, etc. This would happen regardless of whether everyone was diverse or 100% pvre Aryan stock.

>>24603547
he's right btw. And it's because of demons

>>24603766
There has never been a united White people in known history, yes. But do not reduce race to skin - it is even beyond spirit, marrow and bone. But it's not a misguided, if a "White people" does not come into existence soon, there is not a future for the White race because the ideology of antiwhiteism will obliterate the White individual.

You cannot contend with communal forces without a commune. The unifying force is the biospirit, where Westman goes - their is Western civilization.

I don't have to explain much because we have examples of success - the Jews, they are successful as a people.

To keep this on subject, every White person is damaged by antiwhite ideology today, you cannot transcend without addressing it. All religions have succumbed to the psychological warfare of antiwhiteism, so you cannot find any religion as a cure to this.

>>24594897
Islam

>>24603802
>The unifying force is the biospirit, where Westman goes - their is Western civilization
I just fucking explained to you how "Western civilization" has never and will never unify around the label of white or Western or anything else, how its history is one of violence against itself, and all you do is double down.
What the fuck does a white-skinned, blonde, blue-eyed Afghan descendant of Bactrian settlers have in common with me? What the fuck does a Ukrainian care if Britain is filled with immigrants? What the fuck is "antiwhiteism" and why should a rich liberal westerner give a shit if importing brown cheap labor is good for his business? You've provided no reason for any white person to give a flying fuck about the fate of those who share his skin color while appealing to magical fantasies about the "biospirit" that have never and will never appeal to anyone except 15 year old /pol/tards. You say that you can't contend with communal forces without a commune, but there is no white commune. For every thing in common two people from completely different cultures have, they will also have a thousand disagreements. The Jews don't work as an example because their ties to each other go deeper than being "Western" or white or whatever, they share a religion and common heritage tied to a specific part of the world and a language and so much more. An Austrian doesn't share that with an Irishman, a German doesn't share that with a Bulgarian, your average white Midwesterner doesn't even share that with someone from the other end of his country. The label of "western" or "white" is far too broad to build a community around, regardless of how much you appeal to notions of a racial spirit or common idea of Western civilization.
Furthermore, the picture you paint is one in which white people, for all their supposed nobility and "biospirit" and whatever the fuck, are being choked out of existence by antiwhiteism, which obviously must be more powerful than white people anywhere for the power it exerts.

>>24603806
Islam whole thing Is to repress yourself in order to go to a better place when you fue, textbook life denying

>>24603886
Yes, there is no White commune, there is not a White people - that is the problem. Whites ARE being obliterated right now by antiwhiteism, yes they are defeated by it as things stand right now.

Again, skin color is not race. But what Germans, Belgians, Spaniards or White people living in other countries have together is that antiwhite ideology paints them all in same villainous terms, teaches them that the pursuit of their wellbeing as a people is immoral and consequently that to bring harm to them as a people and their norms is a good thing - that is the current moral imperative of the antiwhite West.

>>24603901
Obliterated?
lmfao. you're sheltered dude. you should go spend time in a war torn country and know what trouble actually is

>>24594397
>That being said, all dharmic religions are life-denying
Nah, Hinduism might be unironically the most life-affirming of all the big religions in the world.
It's the only one that's not obsessed with a future salvation, but rather living indulging your own Will.

>>24594949
Christianity is a life-denying religion in its very essence.
It tells you to submit yourself to restrictions during life only so you can live for real after your death.

>>24605429
There's no such thing as a organizar institución called "hinduism", what we call hinduism Is a cultural manifestation of tons of different spiritual movements, all of them with different practices, metaphysics and goals

>>24605532
PLEASE learn to actually speak and write in English
Every time I see you butcher a word by trying to spanishize it I die a little on the inside

>>24595174
>is a huge superstition in flat contradiction to the recognized laws of nature,
Said the guys who believe a dude can walk on Walter,múltiple bread and fish, and come back to life

>>24604309
Thanks for demonstrating that you're an antiwhite piece of shit. When Blacks or Asians share their concerns with you - do you also tell them to go live in a warzone and by the way how does that help?

>>24603901
He made some valid points that would need to be addressed, you didn't even try answering anything. God are you people retarded.

>>24605644
waahwaahwaah

>>24605675
>you need to address these points and the history of X, Y and Z before we can talk about not victimizing White people
No.

Abrahamics really are pathetic lol

>>24594383
Yes, that is why the medieval Buddhists coined the term "memento mori".

>>24594383
That's only criticism from an optimistic point of view, but not from a pessimistic one.

>>24600383
Look, bugs are going to get stepped on. I have places to go and places to be.

>>24605561
>walk on Walter

>>24602622
It's about how corporate America is commodifying the spiritual practice of mindfulness to increase worker productivity.

>>24606640
>Be calm and docile at all times. Anger is always destructive. Have no expectations. Don't have standards. Acceptance and tolerance are the greatest virtues besides making lots of money...
Neutered new-agey buddhism targeted at dumb women is the religion of choice in corporate America. Christianity just can't compete with sweaty rich bitches in yoga pants. They couldn't explain away Jesus whipping the money changers in the temple, so now we must bow to our new masters. Namaste.

>>24595360
breh u got any other recs? all ive got on my shelf so far is DT Suzuki, Shunryu(?) Suzuki, that motorcycle maintenance one and Alan Watts. no idea where to start or where to go but im enjoying it so far (joy not quite right but you get what i mean, expressing our true nature etc.). metaphysically, it's a breath of fresh air

>>24594264 (OP)
You'd have to find a source in a language other than English. Every time I see a Westerner talking about Buddhism who isn't associated with the faith they either set up a strawman or have some profound misunderstanding of it. Outside of that the institution of Buddhism is vulnerable to the same issues as any other religious institution. Cults, predators, corrupted interpretations (like how the West so long believed Buddhism was dude only when there was a female monastic order dating back to the time of the first Buddha), etc etc etc.

Buddhism is not life denying btw if you read that it's flat out incorrect. Buddhism at its heart is about striving for the best position from which to be able to deal with the illusions and temptations of life which will inevitably cause unnecessary or excessive suffering to you or to the people you love who may need your help (and I don't mean religious help). The illusions and temptations may not be "real" but they still mean something that can be very difficult to put aside. In fact I remember a text where Bassui Tokusho passes on a story about how a Zen monk once said Enlightenment is easy; staying enlightened or as he put it liberated is the truly difficult part.

>>24601309
retarded. other anon is right. if you want a white man to tell you about it, Kierkegaard's despair is close. somehow a lot of similarities in thought between DT Suzuki and Kierkegaard dunno if any buddhismfags noticed too

What's up with women calling themselves Buddhist

That is enough discussion, my friends. Let's have a cup of tea!

>>24594949
>it’s life affirming because uh….muh pretty churches and shiet
Western metaphysics and theology is barely ahead of the Stone Age.

>>24606956
my life is hell and i have to return to the hell factory until im turned to canned felon

>>24596590
Boring and insipid post.

>>24607111
Checked

>>24595360
>scholars in the west have done a pretty poor job in translating many of the key doctrinal terms from the Buddhist liturgical languages
It's literally the only religion in the world that has people sitting in silence until they die and self mummification. Stop coping, this isn't about terms.

>>24607129
When Mu-chou was asked, "We dress and eat every day, and how do we escape from having to put on clothes and eat food?" Mu-chou answered, "We dress; we eat." "I don't understand," said the monk. "If you don't understand, put on your clothes and eat your food."

>>24607278
I am the rice pounding disciple.... but i dont wanna be : (.

I pity any anon reading this thread who isn't already familiar with the regular schizos on this board and their posting style.

Still zero answer as to how Buddhism is particularly life denying even though literally every other religion tells you to deny pleasures and suppress your desire in order to achieve future salvation.

>>24607194
>literally the only religion in the world that has people sitting in silence until they die
No Is not, almost all religions have form of extreme asceticism, buddhism Is reallybtame in that Sense, only a few examples of monks practicing corporal punishment

>>24607194
Buddhist monks rely on the daily collection of alms and are constantly attending to the needs of their community. They are not isolated and meditating all day like you think. They are probably lucky to get two hours of meditation in a day if they make an effort.

>>24608929
>>24608873
>>24608837
You're engaging in sophistry. C'mon, you can do better than this.
Christians have monasteries and ascetics, yes, but no one but Buddhists have monks who literally have themselves mummified alive or meditate to death in sealed stone chambers. The argument here, imo, doesn't fully show that Buddhism is life-denying, but it definitely adds some evidence in favor of that view.

>>24608929
Why do people ignore this part? Monks were a great social good in eastern societies. They were teachers, doctors, sponsors of the arts, architects, political forces, etc. it feels like everyone in the west only acknowledges the most hardcore monks that were basically just gigantic tax drains who switch between starving themselves to death (which the Buddha specifically spoke against) and molesting little boys.

>>24608968
Because someone somewhere has done it, that means it represents the entire faith? So people who talk to snakes and whip themselves represent all of Christendom? People will do weird shit by themselves and claim they’re doing it for ___ all the time, that doesn’t mean they represent the religion. Very juvenile and ridiculous argument, especially because the Buddha was against starving yourself to reach enlightenment

>>24608968
That only exists in Japan because they didn't understand the state of samadhi Kukai entered when he died, which in tibetan buddhism is called tukdam

>>24608968
You're using some particular dudes, of a particular temple, of a particular sect, of a particular Time in japan, to prove a general aspect of buddhism, which Is already refuted by the fact that the Buddha himself considered mortificatión by ascetism an extreme to be voided, hence buddhism Is the middle path,meanwhile tons of Christian sects practicing flagelatión even today and muslims killing themselves in terrorist attacks

Normies like it because it aligns with their TMD

>>24605552
Keep on dying then

>>24605429
The sadhus practices inclufe all kinds of body torture, the idea of the faquir that fuck up His body comes from then

Desire is suffering, and life is desire. Denying life is denying suffering, so how could it be a bad thing? Buddhism is religious pessimism if anything, and optimism wouldn't truly be optimism if it didn't hate pessimism.

>>24608968
>Christians have monasteries and ascetics, yes, but no one but Buddhists have monks who literally have themselves mummified alive
Do you know what an "Anchorite" is, BOY?

>>24609320
Scary eastern nonsense not found in the bible, the chances are catholics were influenced by India at some point.

>>24607294
We had the advaitin v nagarjuna spammer who made the same thread over and over for about 8 months, good times

Problem: life sucks and then you die

Buddhism: just meditate yourself out of existence then u can't suffer anymore :^) Also you reincarnate somehow even tho we don't believe in souls, that's why you have to meditate to stop existing

Christianity: Life doesn't suck (via reprogramming the brain to focus on the Good - empirically validated and easily replicable). You don't actually die (granted, you have to take this on faith).

>>24609320
An ascetic who lived on a pillar... not someone who deliberately committed suicide by meditation.

>>24605440
No, it actually promises a more peaceful, joyful, fulfilled life in the here and now.

If Christianity makes you miserable you're doing it wrong. Saints who do stuff like fast in the desert for 40 years do it because they want to.

>>24609800
>meditate yourself out of existence

I hope you're not denying that Christians pray. After all, how is Buddhist monks praying different from nuns and priests spending their day in prayer? Christians used to pray 7 times a day btw, praying more than Muslims.

Prayer is much like meditation. If one is a waste of time and takes you away from the world than so is the other.

>>24595360
>The essence of Buddhism
Is it not a little odd to read an overview of a religion as opposed to reading primary texts? Is there no primary text that I can just kinda start reading and use secondary sources to expand upon the points I am missing, or is Buddhist thinking too different from my western perspective?

>>24609825
Almost the same thing

>>24609880
>it actually promises a more peaceful
Not really, it promises a better life in other place, thus life denying
>like fast in the desert for 40 years do it because they want to
Because mortificatión of the body is the logical conclusion of a religión that sells you a better world outside of your body

>>24611465
It promises a better life in the new world, but also a life in this world which approximates that new life in direct proportion to your holiness. Saints are happy, joyful people.

Getting closer to God brings a richer experience of life. For some exceptional people, getting closer to God requires total rejection of everything else. For most people, extreme asceticism would just lead to neurosis, separation from God, and a miserable existence, and a serious spiritual father will forbid it.

I can't speak for other branches of Christianity, but in Orthodoxy if you feel miserable and empty of life, you're doing it wrong.

>>24594264 (OP)
I’d say like most mystic leaning religious movements (the mysticism element being the more attractive to westerners who are more interested in spiritual experience, rather than logical or philosophic consistency at least at the lower levels) there’s a tendency for it to become new agey, vague, and overly permissive of any and all lifestyles. It can also foster personal passivity, destroy good ambitions, and lead a person to pursue nothing of substance. While personal gain goals might be frowned upon generally, this could also mean that ambitions toward community good are also severed and so you just have a bunch of people satisfying themselves, striving for their own peace and their own peace alone, living by no real doctrine, taking only what already agrees with their world view and denying the rest. But that’s more of a criticism of western interpretation and expression rather than a critique of the religion itself, but the fact it can be twisted that way and so easily I think does speak to its value as a faith.

>>24611101
>reading primary texts
issue is that the primary text consists of something ilke 80,000 suttas, it's an entire bookshelf worth of material. there is enough diversity in there that if you pick and choose carefully you can have it say whatever you want.

>>24611552
>but in Orthodoxy if you feel miserable and empty of life, you're doing it wrong.
Don't you think Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus or anybody else would say the same thing?

>>24611638
>living by no real doctrine, taking only what already agrees with their world view and denying the rest.
That is and has always been the case regardless of what religion, place or time you are talking about.

>>24611685
Being my bro is suffering.

>>24594264 (OP)
In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna teaches that one should avoid crowds and seek solitude to study and meditate. It's like it's tailor made for /lit/ honestly.

>>24611819
Playing with your wojak dolls again?

>>24611825
Nah, they are just a background for the real point of the post, the based quote.

>>24611836
didn't they throw him in jail?

>>24611819
>writes about demons
>attacks religion
>lives in misery and dies in agony
many such cases

>>24611872
Getting thrown in jail for being too edgy is actually some real shit

>>24611910
Better than being a Truth denying schizo

>>24611552
>promises a better life in the new world, but also a life in this world which approximates that new life in direct proportion to your holiness
Any happines in this world Is regulated and dependent in that other world, thus life denying, all religions tell you that you'll be happy if you practice their religión, whats matter is whats the foundament of that happines

>>24611638
>tendency for it to become new agey, vague, and overly permissive of any and all lifestyles
How? At least by western standards "don't drink or get high" is the strictest rule imaginable

>>24611928
>Any happines in this world Is regulated and dependent in that other world
It's don't.

Happiness as a Christian comes from recognizing and loving the Good all around you, and being unfazed by the Evil. In a world of intermixed Good and Evil, this is the only way to unreservedly affirm YES to life.

Theoretically anyone can do this, and you see saintly souls even outside of the Church. But the truth and the way are revealed most clearly through Christ and his Church.

>>24611685
>Don't you think Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus or anybody else would say the same thing?
I'd hope so.

I can respect the good in other religions and any sincere quest for the Good. I just think the full truth is found in Orthodox Christianity.

>>24596557
Imo this only makes sense if you don't accept Buddhist metaphysics to begin with. Original Buddhists weren't modern, western naturalists, they didn't think final death was the default end anyway, so they didn't need to accept it in the same way. They actively tried to stop rebirths, if they wanted to live they could just stay in Samsara.

>>24612250
>Christian comes from recognizing and loving the Good all around
And the good comes from god, a metaphysical Entity beyond this world

>>24606866
I can also recommend "The Noble Eightfold Path" by Bikkhu Bodhi. Not the most fun read but it covers in great detail every step of the four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path from a Theravada perspective, which are the foundation of all buddhist practice, regardless of school.

Mindfulness in Plain English if you want a very basic introduction to Samatha/Vipassana Meditation. I read it when I was just getting started and it helped but nowadays it sounds too "plain english" for me.

"Why Buddhism is True" by Robert Wright is fantastic if you're a skeptic looking for scientific validation of Buddhism. It shows how western psychology and neuroscience has only recently started to catch up to some of the discoveries the Buddha made about the mind.

>>24607194
You could say the same about any religion with its ascetic practices. The only Buddhists who engage in such extreme forms of meditation are (some) monastics. 99% of practitioners are directed to engage fully with life, with meditation being simply an aid to understand your mind better and develop its faculties.

>>24611101
I might be wrong, but I believe out of the major world religions, Buddhism is the one with the largest body of scripture, by far.

Buddhism is divided into three major branches (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana) and each have their own canons in their own languages. If you had to start reading any original texts, regardless of the branch you feel most drawn towards, I'd recommend the Theravada Suttas. They are basically the early discourses of the Buddha shortly after he attained enlightenment. Some are quite short and easy to read, but I always recommend starting with secondary literature since it covers more ground more quickly and is less prone to misinterpretation.

>>24612733
thanks for the recs anon. are you part of any temple?

all religions are life-affirming, but world-denying

>>24613194
cool take

>>24594383
What's wrong with that?

>>24595446
>Christianity on the other hand posits that those cracks have opened wide into a gate, that gate has a name, and He is present in the lives of every human being with the purpose of guiding them to Him and through Him.
There's whole sects of Buddhism that are comparable, though, like Pure Land Buddhism.

>>24594264 (OP)
Chesterton is pretty good

>>24612269
>Original Buddhists weren't modern, western naturalists
The Buddha certainly was. That was where the whole concept of anatta comes from. And why he refused to answer what happens to a person after death.

>>24601831
Why aren't you Buddhist anymore?. I assume it has something to do with not believing in the supernatural aspects

>>24613612
He clearly explained rebirth to be right view. He achieved awakening by meditating on his past lives

>>24614401
Right View is defined as the 4 Noble Truths in at least two different suttas.

>>24614401
>meditating on his past lives
While that does appear in a sutta describing his night of enlightenment (which of course was something made up later), the general description of the path to enlightenment, which appears over and over again in many many suttas never describes visions of past lives as a part of the process of enlightenment.

>>24611678
I think discussion around Buddhism in the west would improve considerably if people were required to read at least a hundred or so suttas before they could share their opinion on what the Buddha taught.

>>24614604
It's not part of the path for people following the Buddha because they don't have to rediscover the Dharma. It was necessary for Shakyamuni because he didn't have another Buddha's teaching to rely on.

>>24614583
The four noble truths are transcendent right view that leads to liberation, rebirth is mundane right view, like karma. Ethical conduct on its own will not lead to liberation, but it is still right view to accept karma and its results and act accordingly. It's the same for rebirth.

>>24614930
>Ethical conduct on its own will not lead to liberation
That's why you have the Eightfold Path. It's not just about ethical conduct. The culmination of the path is Right Meditation and achieving the 4th Jhana through Right Meditation. That's what is defined as liberation.

>>24594383
I totally agree, I prefer to use the term nihilistic though, but we are talking about the same thing. I don't know how anyone can deny that - but some do. Either way, there are many good things about Buddhism, but OP is right that at least in the West it is portrayed as pretty much faultless when that is not the case at all if you are willing to take an honest look at it. Further, aside from some teachings, there are many ill effects people have experienced by different Buddhist meditation practices. These are naturally swept under the rug or gaslight into being "stepping stones" to enlightenment.

>>24612294
The Good is immanently visible all around you. The Good is proof of God, not the other way around.

>>24615184
Irrelevant yo the point, god Is trascendent and the good still depends on him

>>24613484
Doesn't align with his hecking will to power.

>>24613190
No, and that's why I don't consider myself a Buddhist either. Buddhism doesn't have any conversion process but you do have to symbolically "take refuge" in the three jewels of the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha (community).

There's only one monastery where I live and they hold all their activities in Chinese, so I can't really participate in any Sangha at the moment, hence I remain just a curious student :)

>>24594383
>It's not just simple asceticism to develop a rich inner spirituality,

The Buddhist spirituality just takes a different form from Christian spirituality but it's fundamentally similar. Asceticms in any faith involves wordly renunciation and is substantially the same.

I used to be a practicing Theravada Buddhist and eventually found the Truth in Christ. Buddhism strikes me as "the best man can do without revelation"

Buddhism is life affirming

>>24595360
Every /rel/fag/commuard/textnig always thinks they have an epic specific textual answer that deals with some sort of generic misinterpretation.

newsflash pal, believing you are integrated into a greater whole is a self-disintegration. the end of this painful striving is to self-disintegrate, and reintegrate into some "greater" unity. You could only believe this unity is greater by virtue of a relative worthlessness of the self. Life affirmation on the contrary almost necessarily precludes a self-disintegration. Mentioned by other anons in this thread, but you would believe it too, to believe in impermanence is textbook life-denial, it is to say the things you re-encounter are somehow less real than something else.

There are no epic technical gotchas. Buddhism will NOT be actively prescribing fucking, fighting, killing, drinking, living, etc. To NOT prescribe these things is to deny life, simple as.

>>24618328
But those things makes me miserable

>>24594264 (OP)

An Evaluation of the Vedantic Critique of Buddhism - Gregory Darling
A Hindu Critique of Buddhist Epistemology - John Taber
Buddhist Illogic - Avi Sion
Why I Am Not A Buddhist - Evan Thompson
Emptiness Appraised - David Burton
Relation as Real : A Critique of Dharmakirti - Raghunath Ghosh
Bulssi Japbyeon (Buddha's Nonsense) - Jeong Dojeon

>>24618560
250 posts and the only person who still can come up with a critique against Buddhism without it immediately falling into utter schizo nonsense is adviata.
Why is the w*st so pathetic?

>>24594949
Actually meeting Orthodox practicioners members in real life has utterly and the completely destroyed the mystique they've been trying to cultivate on 4chan of being the 'one true church™'

>>24616722
Welcome to the Boddhisattva path

>>24618570
This kind of syncretism is nonsensical. Christ has nothing to do with Buddhist cosmology and doctrine

>>24618565
Yes we're normal people

>>24618585
Somehow worse than Catholics

>>24618583
Syncretism is not a real thing. Your mind is tamed, the boddhisattvas won. Rejoice and have a good day.

>>24618597
Ragebaiting/disingenuous speech goes against the precepts. Anyway there is no such thing as a bodhisattva and rebirth doesn't exist, there is only one way to Truth

>>24618605
Oh dear better have compassion for me

>>24618589
Bad experiences happen. Try going to another parish

Wow you guys are smart. Such powers of reason and logic. But is reason all there is? Is reason the best way to find truth? Don’t you know that reason only begets more reason hahaha. What else would it do? Why would reason give birth to truth? It bears more reasoning. That would be like a bear giving birth to a deer.

Being a reasonable man is good right? But we only see being reasonable as good because we really see reasonable as meaning they can be manipulated. As opposed to an unreasonable man who cannot be reached and so stands before all as an unconquerable force.

To be a reasonable man simply means to be able to be conquered by outside forces. If you wish to attain nirvana you must become unreasonable hahahah

>>24618560
All hindú critiques of buddhism are just question begging, they need to establish the vedanta Paradigm "truths" as self evident to articulate any critique on the buddhadharma

>>24618328
>it is to say the things you re-encounter are somehow less real than something else
Only if you believe that something else could exist, but that's not the case in buddhism, which Is a non-sustantialist philosophy

A bear giving birth to a deer is like some o the shit on those tapestries. i mean like wtf.

>>24618328
>Buddhism will NOT be actively prescribing fucking, fighting, killing, drinking, living, etc.
There is Vajrayana Buddhism if you are into that.

>>24618328
>believing you are integrated into a greater whole is a self-disintegration. the end of this painful striving is to self-disintegrate, and reintegrate into some "greater" unity
That's all religions

>>24618328
There's no greater whole in buddhism, it's not advaita

>>24618328
>just live laugh love bro :)
embarassing

>>24618328
>buddhists want to be integrated into samsara/nirvana is some divine ocean buddhists melt into
board gets deader by the microsecond

The non-buddhists are so fucking embarrassing in this thread it convinced me Buddhism must be onto something true

>>24618643
>reason can show the codependent arising of phenomena and the lack of independent essence
>but don't use reason to criticize other aspects of dhamma, reason only gets you so far
Buddhism is full of literal sophistry, using reason to support their positions, then resorting to a critique of rationalism whenever facing criticism

>>24621421
>but don't use reason to criticize other aspects of dhamma, reason only gets you so far
Buddhism isn't infallible, but sophistry's a stretch.

>>24621421
>Buddhism
It's too wide an umbrella to critique on those grounds.

>>24621421
>then resorting to a critique of rationalism
Buddhism has always been opposed to rationalism, literally the entire religion is based off of one man's experiences

>>24621739
>opposed to rationalism
Ah yes, Christianity is much better!

>>24621772
Never brought up christianity, and its epistemology isn't that different in this respect

>>24594264 (OP)
https://vividness.live/
https://buddhism-for-vampires.com/

>>24621739
All rationalist philosophies are based on one man's experience, likes Descartes or Spinoza, what matters Is if that experience build and promotes a system that develops rational thinking

>>24618585
>we're normal people
The memorial sites to all the massacres across the former Yugoslav republics commited by members of your branch of Christianity have dissuaded me from accepting this claim at face value.