Thread 24632352

Olympic edition

>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
>>24607199

>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw

>Mέγα τὸ ANE·
https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg

>Work in progress FAQ
https://rentry dot co/n8nrko

All Classical languages are welcome.

First for total latrino america death

The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne

discitisne linguam latinam velletisque latine aliis cum peritis tironibusque verba commutare nullis aliis linguis adhibitis? en vobis ubi liceat https://porticuspublica.org

Anyone study Ancient Egyptian? I'm assuming there isn't much lit but is it worth it for the history?

Anyone done the Latin course at the Open University in the UK? Worth it?
https://www.open.ac.uk/courses/modules/a276/

>>24632419
£3,900 pounds seems an awfully steep price for two semesters of college Latin if you're just doing it as a hobby and not for a degree. There's so many resources available on the internet that you can self-study at home for basically free. You'll have to decide whether the value of the course is worth the price tag for yourself.

If you're set on spending money, you could look for alternatives that might be cheaper or more targeted to hobbyists. Here's a few I've seen recently. I have no experience with these, nor am I endorsing any of them.

https://ancientlanguage.com/
https://veterumsapientia.org/
https://www.habesnelac.com/courses

>>24631917
>I'm not sure why you mention me
I quoted you because you mentioned "the Loeb collection, the Teubner editions, and the Oxford Classical Texts", which was good that you brought up, I had heard about the Loeb collection before but had forgotten about it. My quote was from what I read when I was reading the wikipedia articles about those three collections, specifically the Oxford Classical Texts, but it might be that none of them contains all 13 books of Euclid's Elements. As for classical education you know nothing about it, so don't speak about it. Someone recommended me Gwynne's Latin. I had a look at it and was not impressed, but anyway in it I read a little about "classicists" and that's what I was attempting to discuss, and that's what I am going to research going forward. What are "the classics"? Why aren't texts like Euclid's Elements included? I seem to come across many contradictions but that's how it is in general when trying to acquire actually valuable information, it's all been distorted and hollowed out to where it's hollower than a Swiss cheese and it's a great challenge to connect the dots.

>>24632546
source on that?

>>24631974
From what I've read "v" is pronounced like "w".

>>24632571
So-called “classical education” which has barely anything to do with actual classical, medieval and renaissance education was invented by grifter Mortimer J. Adler, the Straussian neocon zionists at St. John’s College, and Christschizos like Dorothy L. Sayers

cāseum amō!

This guy actually speaks in latin with the tone of a normal everyday language; most people I see who try to speak latin sound like pompous twats who are declaring the most important shit ever with every sentence, no matter how mundane

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_wnTSfZBEAo

>>24632661
he's a goal i wanna strive for, speaking latin like a normal person

>>24632571
Alright, I understand better what you mean. The Teubner editions and the Oxford Classical Texts series are editiones maiores, that is to say, their primary aim is to establish as accurate a text as possible, providing a critical apparatus so that a learned reader has a comprehensive record of the variants found in the manuscript tradition. This type of edition is generally not accompanied by a translation (though there are exceptions, for instance in the French Budé). Teubner is the oldest publishing house in this field, and Euclid was published there as early as 1883 (search for “Euclidis opera omnia” by Heiberg and Menge, available on Internet Archive). The Loeb library is somewhat distinct in that its purpose is to provide a relatively unencumbered Greek or Latin text alongside a translation, in a convenient format, more for leisure than study.

To answer your question, Euclid, like many other, often falls outside the scope of such series, which are intended to publish works of literary or historical value. Many philosophers, jurists, and other technical authors are absent from these collections, or appear only in part. The quadrivium isn't quite what editors have in mind when publishing a text. The corpus aristotelicum itself is still far from fully worked over. Even for a text as famous as the Metaphysics, the exploration of the primary manuscripts has not yet been brought to completion, and there exists a Syriac and Arabic tradition which has only in the past generation been recognised as requiring treatment based on direct personal investigation, rather than the occasional resort, when available, to the editions of oriental scholars, which sufficed for even the best editors of the last century.

>as for classical education you know nothing about it, so don't speak about it
What exactly do you mean by ‘classical education’? I learned Latin and Greek in school back when it was still taught seriously, but I'm not sure that's what you're concerned with.

>>24632630
esne mus aut rana?

>>24632369
I tried responding to the thread about modern Latin music with
“Metallo Nigro cantores nonnumquam Latine cantant, vel vere ululant, ut Mey’nach Mütiilationis in “Inferi Ira Ductus” “
And it got rejected, why?

>>24632757
you did fill in the input box under "Si homo verus es, dic quaenam sit urbs, quam Cato delendam esse censuit" right?

>>24632764
Oh lol mea culpa then

>>24632755
vir sum

>>24632624
Indeed. We ought to go back to true classical education, as known from beginners' Latin textbooks, like Familia Romana, Oxford Latin Course, and Ecce Romani. Students should primarily be made to memorize and recite Latin verse in front of the class, and beaten when they fail or act up.

>>24632858
This but unironically

>>24632751
>Even for a text as famous as the Metaphysics, the exploration of the primary manuscripts has not yet been brought to completion, and there exists a Syriac and Arabic tradition which has only in the past generation been recognised as requiring treatment based on direct personal investigation, rather than the occasional resort, when available, to the editions of oriental scholars, which sufficed for even the best editors of the last century.
Nta, but curious about this. Could you say more, or are there any good articles or books you could recommend on this?

What totalizing statements about education tend to miss or elide is that there are in fact significant differences between people and their developmental environments.

>>24633039
How bout you respond to a specific post instead of vagueposting like a lil bitch

>>24633016
I can't summarize the entire tradition, that would take too long, but long story short the last two complete editions are those of W. D. Ross (Oxford, 1924, in two volumes with a large commentary), and Werner Jaeger's OCT in 1957, the first to make use of the reconstructed Greek readings derived from the lemmata cited in double translation in Averroes' Arabic commentary. It basically lies on three MSS, Parisinus graecus 1853 (E), Vindobonensis phil. gr. 100 (J) and Laurentianus graecus 87,12 (A) which represent two distinct branches (the first two the family α and the third the family β) that pose well-known difficulties due to lack of agreement (see https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-text/#Met for a quick summary) and there are many more MSS that are yet to be explored to resolve it, as well as a lot of important commentaries, such as those of Syrianus, Alexander of Aphrodisias or Themistius. If you have access to it, you can check Silvia Fazzo's “Aristotle's Metaphysics - Current Research to Reconcile Two Branches of the Tradition” in AgPh 98 (4), 2016, 433–57. As for the Arabic and Hebraic sources, lessons drawn from them, which are quite abundant, had to wait until the interwar period for the first publications, and the first decent attempt for a seasoned Hellenist and Arabist to team up on Aristotle was in 2012 with Leonardo Taran and Dimitri Gutas's “Aristotle Poetics. Editio Maior of the Greek Text with Historical Introductions and Philological Commentaries”. Bouyges' edition of Averroes, which was used by Jaeger, deserves little confidence, because he adopted highly questionable critical principles and basically admitted even plain grammatical errors. I digress, but it is a barely broken field, where much remains to be done. We are a very long way from Virgil, Plato, or Aeschylus, whose traditions, even when heavily corrupted, have long since been thoroughly explored.

>>24632624
That's not what a source looks like but anyway a) I didn't say I was talking about that rather than a real classical education and b) I do get the impression a lot of stuff that's floating around in home schooling circles and elsewhere which purports to have something to do with a classical education is not genuine. The main thing there though is they normally skip learning Latin and Greek and use only English.

Don't know much about Mortimer Adler but he had something to do with the Great Books of the Western World series. Are you opposed to reading books from that series? For example Elements by Euclid? Do you suggest waiting to read Elements until you can read it in the original Greek?

>>24632858
What do you suggest for a beginner learning Latin instead then?

>>24633138
Thanks for the rundown, anon. I knew Jaeger's edition was iffy, but I'm surprised to hear that there's still much work to be done. Found the Fazzo article, I'll give it a read. Thanks again!

>>24632571
Loeb and Teubner offer Euclid

>>24632751
i'm glad i finally found a giant wall of text, i think i'm having vision problems so i duplicated it try and trace out any distorted parts in my field of vision

>>24632364
Salve Mercuri,

boves Apollonis duces lyra testudinis
et mulces iram Sororum Fati

Vale Mercuri, Fur Nectaris

>>24632661
how about this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgh_g63ZjHY

Has anyone used Assimil's books for ancient languages? They offer Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit. I've used their books for modern languages and liked them, but I don't know if their method would translate well to dead ones.

>>24632751
Long post in which not much was relevant to the post you replied to.

I meant that everything you said about classical education was wrong. For example that it's from the 9th century. Provide a source for that. This link says it has its roots inancient GreeceandRome, and that's what I've always read.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_education

Less syntactic ambiguity is one of the things I like about Latin.

AI post below to be discussed.

>Does this sentence have the same syntactic ambiguity in Latin? "They had living quarters for workers in the refinery."

>The sentence "They had living quarters for workers in the refinery" is syntactically ambiguous in English, primarily due to the potential for multiple interpretations of the prepositional phrase "for workers in the refinery." It could mean that the living quarters were intended for workers who worked in the refinery, or it could mean that the quarters were located within the refinery building itself, or that the quarters were for workers and the refinery was the location where the quarters were situated.

>Translating this sentence into Latin would not inherently preserve the same syntactic ambiguity, as Latin grammar and syntax differ significantly from English. Latin often uses case endings (nominative, genitive, dative, etc.) to clarify the relationships between words, which can reduce ambiguity. For example, the prepositional phrase "for workers in the refinery" would likely be rendered using the genitive case for "workers" (operariis) and the ablative case for "in the refinery" (in refineria), which would more precisely indicate the relationship between the elements.

>While Latin can also have syntactic ambiguities, especially in complex or poetic constructions, the specific ambiguity present in the English sentence—stemming from the open-ended interpretation of a prepositional phrase—is less likely to be replicated in a Latin translation due to the language's more rigid case system. Therefore, the sentence does not necessarily have the same syntactic ambiguity in Latin, as the grammatical structure of Latin typically provides clearer syntactic relationships between words.

>>24633951
>or it could mean that the quarters were located within the refinery building itself, or that the quarters were for workers and the refinery was the location where the quarters were situated.
I don't see the difference.

>>24633916
I repeat (again), but explain what you mean by classical education. If it is the trivium and the quadrivium (your words from an earlier message), then these notions didn't exist in Antiquity. Quadrivium is first attested Boethius' De institutione arithmetica as a word, not as a functional division (ad cumulum perfectionis evadere, nisi cui talis prudentiae nobilitas quodam quasi quadrivio vestigatur) while the trivium appeared during the Carolingian renaissance. The first four disciplines were of course sometimes taught by Plato times, but they had no standardized role as a “package” along with the trivium until the ninth or tenth century when it was understood as the curriculum of grammar, rhetoric, and logic for all literate clergy. I hope you don't believe that the seven liberal arts were what Greek and Roman children learned in school.

>>24634030
That's not how you provide a source. The words used are totally uninteresting, the content is what matters and it constituted the education of the learned classes back then.

>>24634045
The uninteresting words are literally the primary source quoted but then you might read Jaeger's “Paideia” or Henri-Irénée Marrou's two-volume “Histoire de l'éducation dans l'Antiquité”.

>>24634064
Either way you were the one to bring up an alleged meaning of classical education as being contrasted to a medieval or Renaissance education in the first place. You really have no clue what you're talking about. I wanted to discuss the difference between classics and classical education as defined by the two links but you're not the one to do it with, you don't even know what rhetoric is.

>>24634064
I clearly meant it's uninteresting which words they used for the same content, ie whether they used the word "quadrivium" or not.

>>24634030
You're the same guy I told to work on composition, I can tell from your sloppy syntax. I doubt you studied much Latin, and you know nothing about the subject I wanted to discuss so go back to lurking.

Learn Avestan

>>24634045
>>24634084
>>24634093
Nta, but that anon's claims I've seen borne out by having read the following, which I suggest you look into:

H.I. Marrou - A History of Education in Antiquity
Stanley Bonner - Education in Ancient Rome
M. Joyal, I. MacDougall, J.C. Yardley - Greek and Roman Education, a Sourcebook
Walter Ruegg - A History of the University in Europe Vol. I-III

Pre-medieval education in Ancient Greece and Rome was primarily in gymnastics, with some classes learning the basics of reading and writing (grammar, but not as a discipline, at least until a certain point during the Hellenistic period), poetry and very rudimentary music and arithmetic, and really only those with money or from relatively wealthy families studying rhetoric. In Roman rhetorical education (see Cicero and Quintilian), grammar is present but not really emphasized the same way, and neither is logic or the quadrivium. Those come into formation as the trivium and quadrivium really through Martianus Capella's "Marriage of Philology and Mercury", which was used as a basis for medieval education, which then looked to older standout studies to fill itself out with (like Priscian or Aristotle's Organon or Boethius). Locations like Plato's Academy or Aristotle's Lyceum were more involved in what we would recognize as research (e.g., the mathematical education discussed in Plato's Republic also has an aside that solid geometry still requires work to develop, so what was available at the time of composition wasn't treated as sufficient in itself, but held out as a subject for further research within the Academy).

>>24632362
What sub-race of blonde subhuman are you?

>>24632661
He is a barbarian retard barbarising a language of people who wanted to genocide his race. Unfortunately they didn't.

REMINDER that if you were raised in Engl*sh you cannot and will never be able to grasp the most superficial layer of Latin. You were born a subhuman, lower than a barbarian, and will die as such until some brown savage rapes you out of existence.

>>24633951
English is an inherently ambiguous language because it is shit and degenerate.
How can a language that struggles with basic concepts such as "man" and "woman" form complete sentences? It can't. Communication is not possible in English. If you were raised in English, you quite literally have no rational faculties.

IP ban latin america

>>24634423
>latin
Synonym for Roman
>america
Land of Latins. Only Latins can be American.

Genocide blondes chimpanzees.

“But what law is there among barbarians? They react all the more savagely”
“For six months the barbarians (who would have thought?) hung around that one mountain”
Romana by Jordanes

“And so, having reformed the army quite in the manner of a monarch, he [Hadrian] set out for Britain, and there he corrected many abuses and was the first to construct a wall, eighty miles in length, which was to separate the barbarians from the Romans”Historia Augusta

“as I am among long-haired hordes, having to endure German speech, praising often with a twisted face the song of the gluttonous Burgundian who spreads rancid butter on his hair? Do you want me to tell you what wrecks all poetry? Driven away by barbarian thrumming”
Sidonius Apollinaris

Thalatta.

>>24634438
>nay, those over whom Irule are Britons, men that know not how to till the soil or ply a trade, but are thoroughly versed in the art of war and hold all things in common, even children and wives, so that the latter possess the same dignity as the men”
>Those who were taken captive by the Britons were subjected to every known form of outrage.The worst and most bestial atrocity committed by their captors was the following[…]
>There are two principal races of the Britons, the Caledonians and the Maeatae… Both tribes inhabit wild and waterless mountains and desolate and swampy plains, and possess neither walls, cities, nor tilled fields, but live on their flocks, wild game, and certain fruits;2for they do not touch the fish which are there found in immense and inexhaustible quantities. They dwell in tents, naked and unshod, possess their women in common, and in common rear all the offspring. Their form of rule is democratic for the most part, and they are very fond of plundering; consequently they choose their boldest men as rulers… They can endure hunger and cold and any kind of hardship; for they plunge into the swamps and exist there for many days with only their heads above water, and in the forests they support themselves upon bark and roots, and for all emergencies they prepare a certain kind of food, the eating of a small portion of which, the size of a bean, prevents them from feeling either hunger or thirst.
Historiae Romanae by Cassius Dio

>>24634105
I can understand him just fine, and I think he (or whoever) is mostly right about his appraisal of "classical education." While it is noble intentioned, it doesn't seem in my experience to be anything radically different from the standard sort of education I received in public elementary school. It's standard education plus window dressing (LARPing). There's nothing wrong with it if it encourages educators to read "great books" or retain Latin in the curriculum, but what they're actually doing in schools is not a lost tradition extending back to ancient Rome or Greece.

Why does this latinx monkey assume Caesar would think him any less of a barbarian than the proto-angloids he’s mocking?

is the Dowling method bullshit? it sounds ridiculous

>>24634434
I’m a NVBIAN bvll. The Romans would think I was civilized but would 100% enslave your guat ass

>>24634678
With any traditional method of studying Latin or Greek, you're going to learn all these forms anyway, probably with reference to tables. If you want to front-load memorizing all the tables before actually engaging with the language, go ahead I guess, but I don't see why that approach would be better in the long run than building up your knowledge of forms/tables as you go. I also think that having to go through the Dowling method would be a deterrent to most learners. If I had to guess, I would say that if anything the Dowling method is harmful, even if you enjoy learning that way, because it's a totally backwards way to learn a language.

>>24633951
LLMs are inherently sycophantic and tend to reinforce your own biases. Latin suffers from syntactic ambiguity, ask anyone who has studied both it and Greek.

>"From your earliest childhood you have been brought up as I have; you have been taught to venerate Greece, of which we are the heirs. In our schools and in our museums, Greek works occupy the places of honor; we are asked to acknowledge them for what they are: human miracles of harmony, of equilibrium, of wisdom, and of serenity; they are held up to us as examples. Furthermore, we are taught that the work of art is never an accidental phenomenon, and that we must seek its explanation, its motivation in the people themselves, and in the artist who produces it—the artist who merely gives form to the harmony which he initially realized within himself."

>"We all know that. Go on."

>"We also know that it was not only in the plastic arts that Greece excelled, and that this same perfection, this felicity, this aptitude for harmony is also to be found in all the other manifestations of its life. A Sophocles, a Pindar, an Aristophanes, a Socrates, a Miltiades, a Themistocles, or a Plato is no less admirable a representation of Greece than a Lysippus or a Phidias. That equilibrium which we admire in each artist, in each work, belongs to Greece in its entirety—a beautiful plant without blemish; the full development of no one branch has harmed the development of any other."

>"All this has been granted long ago, and has nothing to do with..."

>"What! Do you refuse to understand that there exists a direct relation between the flower and the plant which bears it, between the essential quality of its sap and its behavior and its economy? Are you trying to convince me that this people, capable of offering the world such mirrors of wisdom, of graceful power and of happiness, did not know how to conduct its own affairs—did not know first of all how to apply this happy wisdom, this harmony to its very life and the ordering of its morals! Yet as soon as Greek morals are mentioned, they are deplored, and since they cannot be ignored, they are turned from in horror; we do not understand, or we pretend not to understand; we refuse to admit that they form an integral part of the whole, that they are indispensable to the functioning of the social organism, and that without them the fine flower we admire would be quite different, or would not be at all."

>>24632630
Non est bene de bobus filios privare.

>>24634775
Facts

>>24633886
Don't they also have ancient Egyptian, but only through French?

What do I read after Anabasis? shit slapped hard btw so I'm thinking something similar, maybe the anabasis of Alexander?

>>24634001
Because it's AI. The two actual things it could mean are that the living quarters were located in the refinery, and were for workers (not necessarily the workers of the refinery), or that the living quarters were for the people who work in the refinery (but may or may not be located in the refinery).

>>24634410
>English is an inherently ambiguous language because it is shit and degenerate.
So the only non-degenerate language is Lojban?
>How can a language that struggles with basic concepts such as "man" and "woman" form complete sentences?
That's fundamentally a political issue, not a linguistic one.

>>24634846
Filios? Quomodo lactem bovum bibis? De peniis eorum?

>>24634866
De caeso non lacte anonus loquibatur ergo caesum penorum eorum ést

>>24634866
Quod dico est, si filios non privant, filii lactem bibent; ergo necesse est illos privare ut homines id bibant.

>>24634854
Yeah, i forgot about that one. I think all of their classical language courses are only available in french.

>>24634892
Iam intellego. Ignosce mihi, stultus enim sum

Pretty much any white subhuman who studies classical languages only does so for political motives. In mainstream academia it's to portray the classical world as a multicultural gay paradise. For you chuds it's no less political, it's just that you think the ancient Greco-Romans were blonde blue eyed Nordic peoples that were mongrelized with the Middle East, and you want to be able to quote things that 'prove' this (like xanthos or subflavum meaning platinum blonde hair) as a sort of weapon for your abominable political beliefs that are honestly overtly genocidal towards Southern Europeans at this point. It's a sort of narcissism and you want something to look at so you can say the genius of the Greco-Romans was a factor of them being Nordics, to remind you the importance of preserving the heredity of the Germanic race unlike the Italians and Greeks who are today "lost" to mixing and need to be killed later to "bring back those genes".

It is no coincidence that all the accounts on chud twitter saying to learn Greek are pretty much all hardcore nordicists and followers of Bronze Age Pervert the nordicist. Look through their accounts and you'll always find something about blonde nordic Dorians and modern Greeks being Turks who will be, ahem, "taken care of" eventually.

You take no real genuine interest in the classical world. You hate Italians and Greeks and think we are mongrels, and the more extreme of you want us to be killed for a "repopulation by Nordics". You read Gobineau and Grant more than you actually read the Classics. Stay away from Latin and Greek and go study Old Norse or Old English (your true heritage) because I can assure you that Classical Southern Europe is not in your blood, chuds. Or better yet OD on fent instead in your trailer park you'll do the world a favor. I fucking hate you and am glad you are all getting replaced it's totally justified for that to happen to Germanics. Fuck you. No you were not Greeks or Romans.

>>24635003
I will turn you into my ganymede

anyone know how to learn old english

>>24635003
You clearly haven't lurked in these threads enough to see that they're 90% textbook recommendations, 4% pointless flaming over apolitical crackpot theories, 4% shitposting, 1% effortposting, and 1% other including what you're describing.
Not that what you're describing doesn't exist. But this thread is basically a dysfunctional study group that reflects surprisingly little of /lit/ culture outside of itself.

>>24633886
I have used all three.
They are fine supplements to another plan. No more and no less.
Assimil works so well for living languages because it gives you a very fast "in" to casual speech, scaffolding more quick acquisition. That's why highly effective and motivated language learners love their books and the rest don't even know they exist.
It's obviously useless to gain a quick "in" to oral Attic Greek and Latin. Oral Sanskrit is debatably more valuable, but should start with chants rather than basic conversation.
It is however useful to develop a strong inner voice for these languages if you intend to spend any time with them. What's more is that beggars can't be choosers. No serious student of the classics can afford to pass over high-quality early stage materials.

>>24634854
>>24634923
Mieux vaut baisser les bras quand on ne parle pas encore français mais qu’on prétend vouloir apprendre le latin.

>>24635003
BAP is not German or Nordic - he is a Romanian Jew associated with Straussian neoconservatism, a thoroughly Jewish movement. The "bronze age" thing is just another skinsuit meant to sell capitalism and Zionism to the next generation. We'll never be free of this if you continue to scapegoat random white people instead of attacking the Jews who run these right-left pincer attacks.

>>24635086
why are you focused so much on BAP being a jew. its barely relevant to what he writes about

>>24635105
Because the person I replied to was associating BAP stuff with Germanic people as part of an attack on them. In reality it's a Jewish young Republican thing. But I won't discuss this any further in this thread.

>>24635086
"Romanian Jew" is a nonsense term. There were basically zero Jews in Romania before they fled or were expelled from Russia and started colonizing cities in eastern Europe. They were despised outsiders in Romania every minute they were in the country, and they despised Romanians right back. There were indeed a few good Romanian Jews like Mihai Sebastian but even he wanted a cosmopolitan vision of Romania and Europe that was safe for Jews. Reasonable thing to want but much more reasonable would be for there never to have been many Jews in Romania in the first place.

Bitchgut Alamariu has nothing to do with Romania and wears Romanian kitsch as a skinsuit.

>>24635003
Go elsewhere please or at least type your rants in mexican so I can instantly skip past them

>>24635003
>>24635086
>>24635125
Finished your Greek and Latin readings for today, boys?

>>24635182
These creatures don't read any Latin or Greek.

>>24634378
This discussion is absolutely retarded and you're just derailing. Learn to address the point. Again, I didn't even say anything about what they studied in Classical Antiquity, at all, this is a retarded sidetrack you went down. I started talking about what the difference is between on the one hand studying THE CLASSICS, ie Latin and Greek, and literature in these languages,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classics

and on the other hand A CLASSICAL EDUCATION, and again YOU are the only one to read this as "education in Classical Antiquity", I didn't say that, nobody ever said that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_education

You clearly need to acquire a classical education, you are severely lacking in all that it includes, and also don't know anything about it, ie you both lack the skills those studies give you, and don't have any knowledge about those studies which would enable you to discuss what they are, you can't have one without the other anyway. Your AI copypasting is not a substitute for a classical education.

What's everyone reading lately?
I'm going through Ajax

>>24635187
Classical education isn't for everyone, anon.
It is very good at producing well-rounded elites and at instilling in them a sense of noblesse oblige. But no one who has been through it would truly disparage another for not having had the privilege, especially not like this.

>>24634859
I agree and that's what I thought when I read it. I see through AI's bullshit sometime too. I asked it another question about Latin, and it said "thanks for calling me out on that". Anyway, any thoughts on ambiguity in Latin vs English (or Greek, or other languages), for example in that sentence about workers, or this sentence?

>John saw the man on the mountain with a telescope.

>>24635003
please keep your revanchist buck broken self to your containment board >>>/his/ with the other resident global south hominids, thx

>>24635192
nice, Sophocles' I assume? Ajax was(is) my favorite character from the Iliad so I also chose Ajax as the first Sophoclean tragedy I read

I'm mostly reading Pindar and Seneca

>>24635202
I will call out a derailing and bad discussion when I see one, which is the right thing to do. You know nothing about this subject. I gave you advice, which too is the right and noble thing to do. You on the other hand lack the humility these studies give you.

>>24635214
>sometime
*sometimes

>>24635044
It doesn't matter what you discuss here or that you keep it on-topic to classical languages, because I know many or most of you will be chuds who hold nordicist beliefs and hate Southern Europeans and may even have twitter accounts where you follow those with similar views like BAP and Spergler. I just found my target audience and I searched for the right place. And we can see I have been vindicated by these 2 nordicist posts from obvious white nationalists about me being brown (I'm Southern European and it was obvious in my post). This is precisely why your people deserve to be replaced by the third world hordes.

>>24635147
>>24635216

this is getting harder...

>>24635086
One Jew being involved or even running it does not negate your people's behavior of stealing the history of and dehumanizing Southern Europe. And there are more than enough Germanic goyim following BAP and agreeing with every word he says. You cannot just see a Jew and then blame him for absolutely everything. I've been proven right though that this thread is full of white nationalist nordicist trash so you can't say I went looking in the wrong place. You people are scum and you have no relation or blood tie to ancient Southern Europe.

>>24635187
If >>24631659 from the old thread is you, than what I and the other anon have been saying is both apropos and correct. You started off asserting a Classical Education was the trivium + quadrivium, you picked a fight with that anon at >>24632571 telling him he doesn't know anything about Classical Education (which, again, *you* defined as the seven liberal arts), and gave as an example his claim about the 9th century, and now you're picking a useless fight with me when I backed up his claim by pointing to books I myself have read as sources on the subject. It's not a big deal dude, but don't get huffy about it with people trying to help you out, especially when you're relying on wikipedia and claiming anyone else is AI copypasting. Calm down.

>>24635262
>>24635254
Just go back to posting "fasciculum." That was funnier.

>>24635313
I still remember how hard I kekd when it clicked

>>24635254
>nordicist
I’m black and you’re obviously not Southern European but a larping Mexican so fuck off ty

>>24635261
Don't fret anon, just keep applying the lauded Ranieri Pyramid Re-Reading Method and you'll get a handle on it.

>>24634436
> They are the most ignorant people I have ever conquered.
Hoc Caesar numquam dixit, hahae (neque is a pluribus imperator habetur).

> Jordanes
Num originem scis Iordani istius?

Ii, utriusque factionis, qui mentionem “Mediterraneanorum vs Nordicorum” faciunt cruce digni sunt

>>24635359
Ii, utriusque factionis, qui mentionem “Mediterraneanorum vs Nordicos” faciunt cruce digni sunt

>>24635379
Omnino convenio, modo quidquid bonorum educere e sermone turpissimo conatus sum.

>>24635355
I don't know what that is...

>>24631969
>Besides, /w/ itself is a consonant
No, and that was largely my point. Assuming that you, by /w/, mean [w], it's a semi-vowel, or glide, and not a consonant.

>alien to Latin
???

> Learn basic phonology before spewing nonsense
You should really do that, yeah.

Italians utterly buckbroken by philological reasoning.

Philological reasoning is a fine method for somebody engaged in the hermeneutic of reason.

>say that many study classical languages as a form of stolen valor to try and appropriate the ancient Greco-Romans as Nordic and portray modern Southern Europeans as mongrels
>"NOOO THAT'S NOT TRUE THAT'S NOT TRUE IT'S ALL JEWS"
>several nordicists immediately crawl out of the ground en masse like worms after it rains to defame Southern Europeans
Wasn't so wrong now was I? Enjoy replacement, Germanics. You certainly earned it.

>>24635511
by this he means comparative PIE linguistics proves the "Aryan" origin of the "elite caste" of Southern Europe who were 100% Yamnayas enslaving Southern Europeans as helots, and that Italians are the example of what happens when Aryans mix with lesser races and why the Germanic race must retain its purity and ethnically cleanse us and the Slavs from Europe

this is what these sick people really believe, and why I am deeply suspicious of any Germanic who studies classical languages

>>24635589
I’ve never even seen any nordicist shit in this general before you started whining about it so stfu and fuck off

>>24635063
>Mieux vaut baisser les bras quand on ne parle pas encore français mais qu’on prétend vouloir apprendre le latin.
Pourquoi?

>>24635605
Yeah, you'll save that for twitter, telegram, and discord. But that doesn't change how you all feel. All it took was me saying it to bring them out. This will be my last post in this thread, I'm entirely vindicated on you Germanic white nationalist trash and your genocidal scorn against Southern Europe.

>>24635214
I don't think Latin and Greek have a whole lot less than English. Maybe a little bit less.

>>24635617
Post your southern european passport asap

>>24635645
Stop engaging with him, ffs.

>>24635254
Dude just go back to /his/ or /pol/ please. As a gigachud tradcath larper myself, I can virtually guarantee you that like 90% of right wing people who put serious effort into Latin respect Latins as Europeans.

>>24635280
Still not addressing the point. For the 10th time I wanted to have a discussion about Classics vs a classical education. But now I know there is nobody in this thread capable of such a discussion.

>>24635619
Based on what? Have you studied Latin and Greek?

>>24635719
Yes, I have. Languages don't vary all that much in their amount of syntactic ambiguity, though they may have it in different places.

>>24635589
Sorry, Jew, but I'm English and when I look in the mirror I see clearly in my facial structure and my hairline that I am a direct descendant of C. Julius Caesar. Modern Italians are obviously Muslim rapebabies and not the same stock as the Romans of old. Now buzz off and munch on some fettucini alfredo.

>>24635713
yeah people learning Greek and Latin are all Mediboos. the Nordicists are completely different people who obsess over Germanic paganism instead

>>24635728
let them throw shit in their mud huts

>>24635728
Bait on here used to be funny and founded on at least some knowledge of the classical languages now it’s just some sperg whining about BrAP and his xitter followers. Yawn

>>24635728
Also untrue. The politically-minded people learning Latin are mostly the medieval lovers. It’s the first 1000 years of our civilization. Basically I’ve never met a chud learning Latin who wasn’t also Catholic. And I’ve never met someone politically minded learning Ancient Greek who wasn’t at least sone kind of mainline Protestant.

I got into this because of research I was doing in college on medieval constitutions and personal reading of crusade-era primary sources lmao. I wanted to be able to read Alfred the Great and James VI and the like. (Plus obviously Caesar, I wouldn’t be a chud if I didn’t love Caesar).

Although I will concede that ancient Greek guys are going to more likely be BAPcels, they’re still a teeny portion.

And yea, there is a substantial amount of libtard classicists coming out of universities unfortunately. But in terms kf the actual language learning and not just the historiography I find most of these people are either A. Part of the living latin communities (reddit) or B. Degree wavers with very limited actual ability in the languages.

I am once more requesting any and all Classical Nahuatl sources.

>>24635724
I'm asking again, based on what? You're not backing up your statement with anything. I think Latin has less syntactic ambiguity than English because in Latin words have endings showing which other word they relate to and how. English has almost nothing of that.

>>24636177
It’s called word order.

Also,
>almost nothing of that.

Should be rephrased to something like:
>almost none of that
>almost nothing like that
Etc.

Don’t ask me why, English is my native language and so I don’t know. If it’s just a typo then ignore this. It just seems like an ESL kind of mistake since it involves relatively arcane rules governing natural sounding syntax, rather than a more obvious typo. My posts are often riddled with typos.

>>24635022
Use Colin Gorrie's (of the famed ancient language institute) new book Osweald Bera.

>>24635925
>I’ve never met a chud learning Latin who wasn’t also Catholic.
>I’ve never met someone politically minded learning Ancient Greek who wasn’t at least sone kind of mainline Protestant.

I've never met anyone else in real life who was learning Latin or Greek.

>>24636284
looks comfy. I want to learn Old English someday

>>24636298
Yes, I wish it were otherwise, but it doesn't ring true with my experience either. I've met my fair share of trad-caths and regular caths being something of a traditionally-minded cath myself, but I don't think I've ever actually met anyone through the church that is seriously dedicated to learning Latin to a high level. And by "some kind of mainline protestant," I can only assume you mean Protestants who attended seminary.

>>24636212
I posted two examples of English sentences where the word order does not disambiguate.

>They had living quarters for workers in the refinery.

>John saw the man on the mountain with a telescope.

I'm guessing in Latin "in the refinery" would probably have inflection/s showing whether it modifies "living quarters" or "workers".

>>24636284
So Olde English is just regular English but in baby talk?

>>24632352 (OP)
Please somebody help me out with classical chinese. Books, dictionaries, videos, anything

>What's the difference between Classics and a classical education?
>You're thinking of a medieval or Renaissance education, not a classical education.
Neither Classics nor classical education means "education in classical antiquity".

Just had an idea. Mathematics is a language. It should be possible to teach mathematics by the natural/direct method of language teaching such as is in LLPSI. Then I thought that's basically what Euclid's Elements does.

>>24635261
Don't worry about it. That's a hard chapter. The to-from-where constructions are tricky. Passives can be tricky. (There's a lecture on Youtube with Nancy Llewellyn where she talks about sticking points in LLPSI, and mentions that many students today are unfamiliar with the concept of passives entirely even in English due to decades of boomers chanting "never use the passive voice.") But the trickiest thing of all is that stupid "tam... quam..." construction. But don't worry if it's tricky. As long as you explicitly understand how it works, even if it still trips you up when you're actually reading, you've learned it to the extent the textbook expects. It will become second nature in due time with more exposure.

>>24635454
Elite latinist Luke Ranieri released a long-awaited video this summer, in which he unveiled a revolution in the paradigm of second-language acquisition. This technique he termed the Ranieri Pyramid Re-Reading Technique" (RPRRT).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt119q8Jmho

Basically the idea is that as you progress through the book, you re-read through the book from the beginning up to your current chapter in the book.

1
1-2
1-2-3
1-2-3-4
etc.

Whether you follow this schedule strictly as proposed, the principle of re-reading should be applied by all learners. The chapters in LLPSI are dense (if you're actually using it as a beginner textbook to teach you from scratch), and you need to read the current chapter multiple times to adequately learn the material. Going back to review old chapters is also great advice that many students neglect. I have only two concerns. First is that if you applied the pyramid schedule strictly, you would review the first chapter ("Roma in Italia est...") as an old chapter thirty-four times, and not review chapter thirty-five at all. Given that the later chapters are more difficult, you'd think that they would need the most review. Second, I would worry that having to re-read the whole textbook from the beginning up to the current chapter before being allowed to progress to the next chapter for every single chapter could be demotivating. Decide for yourself.

I'm also reminded of this blog post where the author describes how he used LLPSI as a reader after having initially learned Latin through Wheelock (finding he had poor or basically nonexistent reading skills). He would read through Familia Romana until he got stuck, then start again from the beginning, repeating that process until he was able to comfortably read through to the end.

https://indwellinglanguage.com/reading-latin-extensively/

>>24636212
>Also,
>>almost nothing of that.
>Should be rephrased to something like:
>>almost none of that
>>almost nothing like that
>Etc.
>Don’t ask me why, English is my native language and so I don’t know. If it’s just a typo then ignore this. It just seems like an ESL kind of mistake since it involves relatively arcane rules governing natural sounding syntax, rather than a more obvious typo. My posts are often riddled with typos.
If you don't know enough grammar to say why it is wrong then your remark is utterly uninteresting. "I just know because native" is not an argument.
>arcane
Another way of saying you're ignorant.
Also you dont know what "syntax" means.

>>24636368
Partially wrong and partially right.
Wrong because mathematics is not the same activity as a natural language. It is just cognitively different. So its pedagogy should be different as well.
Right because thinly slicing increasingly difficult content and putting the onus on the learner to puzzle it out is the best way to learn anything. The issue is that many learners have to be tricked into this at varying frequencies.
Also, Hilbert's construction of Euclidean geometry is far more solid from first principles.

>>24635261
Have you tried using any of the supplementary books in the series? I thought the idea was that you're not supposed to need anything other than the text itself but Ørberg still wrote supplementary books so he probably thought one might be helped by them.

>>24636339
It doesn't, Latin has that same ambiguity in that sort of case
>I'm guessing
mmhmm

>>24636395
AI agrees with me.

>>24636459
Good Lord this general gets worse every day

>>24636463
Not an argument.

>>24636456
Yeah I just started studying Latin. I don't know about that sentence but it's pretty obvious that a language which changes a word's form to show which other word it is connected to has less syntactic ambiguity than English. For example adjectives take different endings depending on the gender etc of the noun it is referring to. In English "blue" for example is just "blue", there are no other forms. Let's face it, English is an Idiocracy language. English is a Latin pidgin.

>>24636508
Yes English is awful, that's why it dominates global communication and has hundreds of years of great classic literature. You know better than most, after all you just started studying Latin

>>24636523
Learn what ad hominem is.

>>24636551
I'm agreeing with you about the idiocracy Latin pidgin that is English. Truly no one better to make such a salient point than a man who just started studying Latin

>>24636556
Again, learn what ad hominem is.

>>24636559
No ad hominems. I just started studying logical fallacies, which makes me qualified to make bold pronouncements about them

>>24636567
You need to study logic. Begin by listening to this from the timestamp.

https://youtu.be/U3Jm8zF7bJ8&t=2543

>>24636601
>English is not a dumb language

>>24636603
>A white man gave red apples to brown women for yellow gold
Does this sentence confuse you?

>>24636636
>They had living quarters for workers in the refinery.

>John saw the man on the mountain with a telescope.

>>24636639
The irony is that the first sentence is equally unclear in Latin: "habitationes laborantibus in refineria paratae erant", and any change to "habitationes laborantibus refineriae paratae erant" would be equally lifting any doubt in English: "They had living quarters for refinery workers".

>>24636284
https://voca.ro/1b38Eo3IMLRw

>>24636361
Off the top of my head:
https://old.reddit.com/r/classicalchinese/wiki/index
https://web.archive.org/web/20221115084822/http://lexicity.com/language/oldchinese/
https://www.lexilogos.com/english/chinese_dictionary.htm (mixed in with Mandarin resources)
https://www.omniglot.com/books/language/classicalchinese.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Chinese#External_links
Also, I'll recommend this as the textbook I personally started with:
https://archive.org/details/introductiontoli00branuoft

>>24636384
“Nothing of that X.” is correct, as in the example you posted.
You did not say “nothing of that X.” you said “almost nothing of that.”

It has a lot to do with nothing being a reduction of “not anything” while “none” is merely the opposite of “some.”

To my understanding, “nothing” is a more absolute pronoun than “none,” and so it is rarely takes a prepositional phrase with “of” generally. However, “nothing” can be paired with “of” when the concept is abstract. Think “Nothing of importance….”

Or, as in your example, the thing in question was a language. In your usage, the thing that you called “that” (as far as I can tell due to the inherent ambiguity of your phrasing) is a more concrete concept than the broader idea of a language itself. Your example is the narrow exception of abstract and poetic usage. That’s fine if you want. It’s just that if you’re going to be pretentious about grammar on 4chan you might as well be precise and write with proper style.

Also, None implies a part of a broader whole, while Nothing implies a total absence.
^

Upon just looking up the answer, “that” is a determiner, which logically needs a quantifier that can distribute over it, like “none” since “none” implies being a part of a broader whole. Therefore “nothing,” since it implies a complete lack and not a quantity, logically mismatches when paired with “that” outside of narrow exceptions such as in your example.

“None of that” logically is “not any part of that.” While “nothing of that” logically is “not any thing [from] that” which is only logical when applied to abstract concepts, as opposed to a determiner like “that.”

Not sure why that made you sperg out. I freely admit my ignorance and knowledge gaps. I self-educated. My parents didn’t graduate highschool. I read directly from reading lists and textbooks for several years, on my own, in my bedroom, in middle-high school. (This wasn’t neglect, it let me skip a couple grades). Overall, my formal grammatical education ended in 6th grade. I didn’t major in linguistics or English or any other language. I read Latin as a hobby, not a career. By the way, I used syntax correctly.

If you self-educated on grammar I would appreciate any resources worth looking into that you recommend.

The inordinate rambling nature of my explanation is why I didn’t want to write one, this was a massive waste of time.

>>24636456
>I’m guessing
Kek.

>>24636508
>>24636551
>>24636595
Holy shit I should have just read the thread before typing. What a massive waste of time.

>>24636339
>They had living quarters for workers in the refinery.
This is clear in its meaning due to the lack of a comma.

>>24636688
Are you denying that he committed ad hominem or what is your problem?

>>24636693
Can you please use a tripcode so we can ignore your future messages?

>>24636691
>>24636691
>3 examples that don’t involve the phrasing “nothing of.”
>1 example that refers to “magnificence,” an abstract concept.
Why do you think your pic doesn’t just reinforce my argument lmao


>>24636693
I’m about to commit rape on your mother retard.

>>24636704
Answer the question. Did he commit ad hominem or not? Do you know what ad hominem is?

>>24636705
>I’m about to commit rape on your mother retard.
you seem like a true intellectual

>>24636705
Pretty arbitrary what's abstract and not.

>>24636726
Also I think it was actually exactly because I was thinking of the referent as abstract that I chose "nothing" rather than "none". I felt that "none" would refer to the number 0 of the total number, as in a certain number of things. But I didn't think of the referent as a number of things but rather as a mass, an uncountable, as in "that stuff".

>>24636361
My favourite textbook is A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese by Rouzer and the only dictionary worth considering is Kroll's

>>24636720
My iq is 64.

>>24636726
One could say it’s arcane!

>>24636733
I was responding more to your response than I was defending my original post, if you smell what I’m stepping in.

>>24636764
Are you going to keep being a child or respond to what I said like an adult? I said I didn't think of the referent as a countable thing but as "that stuff".

>>24636662
Give him a break, he just started learning Latin

>>24635261
Don’t bother, insofar as the angloids like you can never be truly understanding the Latin

>>24636459
Actually kys
>>24636508
>I just started learning Latin and here’s my retarded opinion about it
Also kys

>>24636946
The "good slave" character in the story, Davus, is canonically British, and he learned to speak Latin. Doesn't that refute your argument?

cubus ruber hīc est suprā domō meā; sumne tūtus?

>>24637042
The ancient Brittons were not Anglo Saxon like yourself

>>24636950
I'm trying to have a discussion about syntactic ambiguity. Either say something enlightening or say nothing at all. It seems like most people in this thread are women.

Got a new image for the next thread

>>24635202
>>24635280
>>24632624
You had nothing to say after this:
>>24636366
>>24633269
because you know nothing about Classics and classical education.

>>24637404
Can't believe we spent +150 messages on this absolute retard

>>24637404
Seriously, you would benefit from listening to this link >>24636595. I don't say that to be mean, I say it to help you. You will probably not perceice it that way and you will probably not listen to it, both out of pride. That's sad but I've done what I could do. People in here might be studying grammar but logic and rhetoric are equally important.

>>24637351
>Either say something enlightening or say nothing at all.
Yes exactly so please stop posting.

>>24637444
>>24637446

I'm taking Latin at university this coming fall term, what should I expect?

>>24637448
>>24637446

>>24637455
Grammar, vocabulary, authors to read. What do you expect?

>>24637455
If you forget what a deponent is after deponents week they smash your dick flat under a dick flattener

>>24637404
>>24637444
>>24637448
Imagine being this emotional. Be honest, you're women, aren't you?

>>24637474
how dumb are you to think women are learning latin on a chan board in 2025

>>24637481
Either way you're very immature and emotional and know nothing about logic. But there's hope for you, studying logic will help you be less emotional.

>>24637485
Gr8 b8 m8 I r8 8/8

>>24637494
I'm being serious. Tell me, did you study any logic at all?

>>24637497
Yes.

>>24637510
You haven't studied much logic if you don't know what ad hominem is.

>>24637524
He just started r8ing gr8 b8

>>24637570
>This is the person calling you a retard.

"van a fodere se fasciculumes"

>>24636690
Wait, where do you think the comma would go if there was one?

>>24637524
I do know what ad hominem is. Everyone does. Which is why this is gr8 b8 m8 8/8.

>>24637796
There isn’t one, so it doesn’t matter. Inserting a comma would change the meaning. Where to insert, or not to insert at all, depends on the intended meaning.

>>24637455
Grammar-translation, probably.

>>24637481
We exist. If the anon in question is a woman I am thoroughly embarrassed for my gender.

>>24637351
How bout you study Latin for more than 2 days before making sweeping statements about how clear and precise it is compared to English
>>24637425
You never had anything to say because you were treating this place like google and were too retarded to realize we were mocking you

>>24637804
numquam eris..

>>24637801
Right- I mean which comma placements do you think would carry which meanings?

>>24637425
You already admitted that you know little to nothing about Latin.

I think /lit/ and especially /clg/ just gets less trolling so posters fall for it more.

>>24637811
Iam sum :) Tuque eris quod es.

>>24637839
>Tuque eris quod es.

"You will be what you eat!" What exactly have you been eating???

Just finished LLPSI for the fourth time
Did Ranieri say when I’m allowed to move on to Roma Aeterna?

>>24638444
Dominus Ranieri says you must read Capitvlvm Primvm 34 times, Capitvlvm Secvndvm 33 times, etc. before you can continue.

Oh boy more LLPSI/Ranieri discussion after the latrinx goblin finished melting down. Truly one of the classical language communities of all time

>>24638460
I think the whole successive reading thing would be done in lieu of stuff like scriptorium or other exercises so it’s not that nuts.

>>24638468
LLPSI was so finished after this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HBVaLqR0_U

>>24638444
If you're seriously asking, just give it a try. The worst that will happen is you crash and burn, and if so, take a break to work on other things and come back to it later. Don't expect it to be like Familia Romana. Only the first chapter reads like Familia Romana. And use the student's guide.

>>24638481
Her opinion can be discarded because of the ragebait title of her video, and because she prefers Cambridge to LLPSI.

>>24638711
>she prefers Cambridge to LLPSI.
She prefers that people take classes and hire teachers, ideally her.

>>24638481
need a mid, resentful, insecure classics gf…

>>24638763
well, taking classes and hiring tutors is always the best way of learning language. we autodidacts just avoid it because we are asocial and/or we want to save money.
but she is a teacher at some Australian school/college, I don't think she did it for that reason, she just didn't enjoy the story of LLPSI, and interest in the reading is what keeps people motivated to learn a language

>>24638468
So go to r*ddit to translate phrases into latin for people’s shitty tattoo ideas

>>24638772
she is really cute, intelligent, and charming for a weird Australian hapa. she is even a Christian surprisingly. but she's already married and has a kid so it's joever

>>24638373
Ĕs, non ēs.

>>24637806
>>24637827
Study logic, you need it.

>>24637806
>>24637827
>mocking
>trolling
Cope, it was genuine inability to address the point.

Did you hear about the university of Chicago potentially cutting down their language programs? I'm well past that stage in life, but the amount of semitic scholarship that came out of there was great, and it's sad to think that such a great store of scholarships is going to get hollowed out.

>>24638876

responsionem nostram?

>>24638924
Well, since Aramaic never had any status in Italy it’s just a dumb comparison. I guess Latin today would be more comparable to Hebrew, i.e. only really in active use by religious sects or religious scholars studying it to translate it into the day’s vernacular. For Classiclarpers this is a problem. For Catholics it doesn’t really make a difference.

>>24637798
>I do know what ad hominem is.
You don't. Anyone who knows what ad hominem is doesn't keep committing it.

>Everyone does.
Most people don't.

>>24638919
Oh no please anything but less semitic scholars.

>>24638944
Aramaic, Akkadian, and Ancient Egyptian (it's Hamitic but whatever) are great but Arabic and Hebrew can fuck off.

>>24638949
Is there anyone who knows Aramaic (with the exception of the Syriac dialects) who doesn't know Hebrew?

Thoughts on the supplementary books in the LLPSI series? I'm a little bit disappointed that they exist, the natural method wasn't supposed to need anything beyond the text itself, if you need other stuff you might as well put that in the same book, and then it's not the natural method. Was Ørberg a fraud?

>>24638810
I just started addressing the point

>>24638963
plenty but they aren't the sort of people who waste their time browsing 4chan.

>>24638967
it's elegant but kind of a gimmick too, often it can be more helpful to read a grammar explanation in your own language, or to look up a word in the dictionary. no need to restrict yourself to 1 book with the 100% immersion contrivance

>>24638993
Grow up.

>>24639003
Also I think it's a bit weird that LLPSI has so few pictures. It's supposed to mimic how a child learns their native language, and seeing things, hearing sounds, tasting, smelling etc are all part of that learning process, it's not words only.

>>24638919
I was in fact in correspondence with a professor there not long ago, on the subject of a personal project the details of which I cannot disclose. I hope he's doing well and wonder what the leadership of the University of Chicago even believes its mission is anymore.

>>24639004
I just started growing up

>>24638919
>>24639079
What a shame, Chicago was top notch for philosophy.
>the university is facing “historic funding pressures” and must consider a “new level of fiscal discipline
Wonder if this is reflected in the bureaucracy and management positions. They must really be feeling the sting!
Seems Chicago is not alone. Who killed Homer indeed.

>>24639083
I posted a number of propositions and arguments. If you disagree with them then post counterarguments. Or be quiet. Nobody wants to read your tantrums nor your clowning. You're in a thread for classical languages, it's supposed to be an intellectual thread. Read logic/critical thinking books, that's something every serious learner of classical languages ought to be interested in doing. There are many available for free online. Here's just one example.

https://open.umn.edu/opentextbooks/textbooks/introduction-to-logic-and-critical-thinking

>>24639100
The anglosphere is not the world. Knowledge of the classics will be kept alive. It will do especially without the upstart nation young enough to think itself immortal.

>>24639100
Was chicago top notch in analytic or continental philosophy?

>>24639123
Be that as it may it is still a shame that US programs are dropping Classics left and right. no need to gloat, fag

>>24639121
I just started clowning

>>24638967
It’s not fraud. You’re confusing the buzzword of “the nature method” with taglines and claims people other than Orberg make about it.

The nature method is essentially just preaching learning through actual usage (in their era, reading). The core nature method books are essentially very good progressively graded readers with the added gimmick of per-chapter TL grammar explanations and exercises. Since the nature method is learning through practice, the more practice you get, the better. Therefore, the more supplements you read, the more practice you get at a given level, the more extra reinforcement of vocab you get, the more new vocab you learn, etc. You can practice by just rereading the chapter itself over and over, which is worth doing anyways, but I figure if you grind through 24-36 chapters of Latin you’ll want to actually get to read some other stuff in Latin too while you’re still finishing the course, but before you’re ready for just reading unadapted originals.

TL;DR it’s not a fraudulent method because the core of the method is learning via reading a lot, ergo, more pages = more learning.

>>24639198
>before you’re ready for just reading unadapted originals
When are you ready?

>>24639284
Whenever you are personally happy with the level of comprehension you are at and it is at least high enough that you are learning at least some vocabulary just by reading unadapted texts. There was some chapters of the Bible, and an ancient explanation of the Trinity, that I was able to read around LLPSI chapter 11 IIRC. But I’m Catholic and recognize a lot of theologically relevant vocab.

By unadapted I mean no glossing either. Glossed texts are a great way of building vocab rapidly immediately after LLPSI though.

So I guess it depends on you and the text you’re trying to read. Some Latin is useful day one. Some Latin isn’t approachable for a long time.

>>24639121
I can feel the permavirginity radiating off all your posts, Sheldon

>>24639198
You don't even know what the supplementary books are and yet you have an opinion.

>>24638967
Strictly speaking, if the "nature method" is supposed to be to learn a language like a child does, you're right that LLPSI doesn't perfectly mimic that. The idea of learning like a child by reading from a book in the first place is suspect. But you can derive general principles from the analogy of how children learn their native language, and try to craft a textbook, keeping those principles in mind. Even if it doesn't perfectly achieve its aim, Familia Romana still does a good job at teaching the basics of Latin grammar largely by inductive thinking, and it does this while having the student read a comparatively large quantity of Latin text (compared to other beginner Latin textbooks) written in comparatively high quality Latin (compared to other beginner Latin textbooks). The original intention was that Familia Romana could be used by itself, but they can only be helpful if used correctly, particularly for a student working on his own. There's a reason they exist.

>>24639009
It has quite a lot of pictures if you count all the smaller ones in the margins, but you're right that a book can't capture the experience of learning in that kind of immersive context.

>>24639516
I hope you're not the person who asked the question talking like that, because you're question wasn't very clear, and it's no surprise if he thought you were talking about the companion readers rather than the student's guide.

>>24639682
>The idea of learning like a child by reading from a book in the first place is suspect
Agreed
Adults are not children and do not learn the way children do.
This is not in any way a knock on LLPSI

>>24639198
>>24639003
>>24639682
How many times do you people have to be reminded not to respond to obvious bait?

>>24639682
It should be pretty obvious I didn't mean the companion readers when grammar, vocabulary, student's guide and teacher's guide exist. Which departs from the natural method?

>>24638444
No, finish it a fifth time

Best way to learn Sanskrit fast?

>>24639737
It's not obvious. I understood what you were getting at by the restof your question, but I would naturally interpret "supplement" without qualification as probabyl meaning the readers. Even if your original question was perfectly clear (it wasn't), it's not polite to snap at someone who tried to help you, even if they answered the wrong question. After all, it's not clear how much you know yourself, and yet you're aggressively expressing sentiments that could likewise be considered an "opinion."

You're right that some supplements, like a Latin-English vocabulary, are probably contrary to the spirit of the nature method, but some students want to do things their own way or teachers might want to use Familia Romana for their textbook, but adapt it to curricula set by their school district. Grammatica Latina isn't contrary to Familia Romana, because Familia Romana already contains all these grammar tables. It's just a convenient collection of grammatical tables in a separate volume. The "teacher's guide" is either the "Teacher's Materials," which is basically just an answer key, or "Latine Doceo," which is primarily about teaching LLPSI in a classroom setting, and isn't intended for students in the first place.

>>24639971
spare me the morality lesson

>>24639971
>it's not polite to snap at someone
do you know where you are?

ψυχή is such a cool looking word
god I love ψ

>>24639928
Be born to an observant Kshatriya or Brahmin family and learn it from a young age.
The second-best way is to already know Greek and/or Latin, then grit your teeth and do Devavanipravesika and supplement it with readings from amarahasa.com, Assimil le Sanskrit sans peine, and my Nalopakhyanam reader + my Abhijnanashakuntalam reader whenever it's ready.
You don't absolutely have to know Greek or Latin, but I struggle to imagine how an uninitiated would find the grammatical foundations to make it through every existing western resource's poor explanations, or frankly the patience to make it through such dry exercises.

>>24640092
nonne littera 'ψ' tridentem vidētur? maxime cool

>>24639928
Ur getting gangstalked, amice

>>24639928
>>24640142
Good morning saars the mleccha here do not do needful study Sanskrit only Latin good to see the other Bharatis being here

>>24640145
Neptune's trident

>>24640171
utrum nōmen in linguā graecā melius videtur, neptūnus aut poseidon?

Where now leads this door upon the greenway?
And what occasions such a structure,
Stretching on as if to fill the space,
Like the oncoming tide, or soot across an ashtray?

>>24640158
Zersetzung buddies

that nigga cicero SNAPPED on catiline. bro really said
>exhaurietur ex urbe tuorum comitum magna et perniciosa sentina rei publicae
somebody come collect they man fr, this nigga got one-shotted ong ended this man’s career

>future conditional more vivid
>future conditional less vivid
Terms brewed up in the asylum

>>24640495
ong i ain’t even fon lie tho if i woulda fucked w catiline if i been alive back then cicero a fat ass bitch talmbout “salvemus rem publicam” nerd emoji ahh i’m all bout feminae pecuniaque if u get me don’t give no fuck boucho republic

careerum niggae endavit

>>24640516
If you drop the unnecessary “conditional”, then they’re very succinct and practical terms

a few weeks ago this was all gibberish to me... now I can hear every syllable and picture the words! but I still don't know most of the vocab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gih3ZQc31Fc

>>24641196
Someone had to act out the future most vivid in a game of charades I was playing (among other grammatical terms).

>>24640142
There's a video series that teaches Sanskrit through the direct method, but I think it assumes that you'll recognize the Sanskrit-derived vocabulary that's common to most modern Indian languages.

>>24640092
/psykʰɛ́ː/
/psiˈçi/

>>24638919
UChi is no longer a good university, the blessed times of Shorey are long gone. It hosts a grotesque amount of literary scholars who engage in fringe stuff like narratology, genre or cross-cultural studies. Not much of value is lost.

Maybe analytic languages are better after all... What have I gotten myself into... oh no... Or maybe Finnish is a better language, agglutinative languages are maybe better than fusional languages...

Feminus sine pene est velut angelus sine alis.

>>24642169
trannas formosas amo et omnes quibus occurrerem me amabant.
transanonae si hic estis nolite vos celare a me

>>24642102
And that’s just one of four verb forms to juggle. Honestly though I wouldn’t fret, after a month of reading something like LLPSI daily they become second nature

I'm disappointed by a Loeb book since they were bilingual I expected the English to be literal and it was not so I'm not sure what the point of it is since it certainly can't be used for a student to learn if it adds words and changes the order of the sentence

>>24642296
>>24642169
medicamenta statim sume.

>>24642102
it's cool tho you can say "might I be loved!!!" in one word, and Greek goes even further

>>24642102
In total Latin has about 300 rules of grammar
To understand Latin well you need to learn 10-20 thousand words
So it isn't any more difficult than any other language and this fact has been recognised since at least John Milton

>>24642319
Nolo, Iudaee perniciose

>>24642326
What did Milton say on this subject

>>24642326
>Latin has about 300 rules of grammar
lol wtf are you talking about

>>24642102
Something about reading Latin is that even though there are a lot of endings, the personal endings tend to fall into similar patterns across tenses. You can read and understand the basic meaning of something without being absolutely sure of the tense, or even thinking about tense at all. For example, you will likely at some point experience the phenomenon of reading a historical narration written in past tense, and then suddenly realizing that the narration has shifted to present tense (still narrating an event in the past) multiple verbs ago.

>>24642316
You don't always need to understand how to break down a sentence in terms of neat grammatical descriptions in order to understand the meaning. An exact word-for-word translation is often difficult, and to some extent always impossible. Do you want a translation that omits articles because they're not present in the Latin sentence? Rigidly sticking to translating word-for-word translation might also lead to a translation whose meaning is misleading or which could be expressed more aptly with freer word order.

When you're working with any translation, you still need to use your knowledge of Latin and your ability to think critically to apply it to the Latin text, which is more than just this word means this and that word means that. A free translation that gives you the gist of a sentence that totally stumped you or for which you were interpreting wrongly might be enough for you to crack through and find the correct interpretation. Or it might be that your translation is wrong (or translating a different edition of the text than the one you're reading), so again your ability to think for yourself is your biggest asset.

If you're dead set against anything other than a strictly word-for-word translation, maybe try one of those Hamilton interlinear texts, and you can decide whether that is really better than working with a straight Latin text and English translation. My opinion is that if you're trying to read something above your ideal reading level and you want to make it through any large quantity of the text in a reasonable time, it would be more productive to read the English translation first separately, then come back later primed with the basic knowledge of what's going on to tackle the Latin by itself. And if the Latin is still way too hard for you to make heads or tails of, you should probably find something easier to read.

>>24642609
This is good advice

>>24642326
I guess it depends on what you mean by "understand Latin well," but do you really need 10,000-20,000 words? Do you have any studies about that for Latin specifically?

good vocab frequency flashcard site and link that does NOT require a login?

>>24642443
immo vero qui cum trannis nefarie concumbere cupis, is Iudaicus es. isti taeterrimi erunt mulieres numquam. ut ab istis deliramentis liberemur, mortem tibi, quaeso, conscisce.

>>24642326
The Vulgate only has like 8,000 unique words, with a lot of those being obscure single-use terms, and Comenius said knowledge of the 8,000 most common was enough to be practically fully literate.

>>24642638
ut Varg dixit, mos Indo-Germanicorum erat trannis facilitatem generis mutandi dare et eos honorare ut sapientes: in Europa transphobia non exstitit prius quam Christiani, i.e. Iudaei, Europae praeesse et eos qui sapientiam traditionesque populi, ut magos, “veneficas”, paganos, trannosque, occidere incipiunt

>>24642749
Ergo clarum est quod Vargo medicamenta quoque sumenda sunt

>>24642777
vargo medicamenta quoque sumenda esse*

>>24642828
Mediaevalchadi exsurgite..

>>24642749
>ut Varg dixit
quis? tamen ipsi Iudaei in Talmud quod sanctum habent dicit sex ad minimum hominum genera esse. quis vere Iudaicus est? Manifestum est Varg ceterosque barbaros esse magis quam Christianos.

>>24642979
Quis est qui nescit illum filium Norvegiae? Vere incultus es sicut omnes transphobi

In somno visionem vidi
Cum duobus pueris una puellaque tranna femina pulcherrima sedebat et recitans ex libro cui nomen erat “Res Gestae Belli Iudaici” dixit “deinde, Skyrim, Hitler, Aryana, filii mei, bello confecto, transphobi, Iudaei, globalisti, hostes ludentorum, Christiani et omnes alii hostes Europae occisi sunt et mundum regeneratum est. Finis!”

>>24643008
certe non minus incultus sum quam qui argumento ab auctoritate nullius utitur

>>24642316
>aeneid by virgil interlinear
https://archive.org/details/virgilsneidboo00virg/page/2/mode/2up
>metamorphoses by ovid interlinear
https://archive.org/details/firstbookovidsm00ovidgoog/page/n10/mode/2up
>Complete works of horace Interlinear
https://archive.org/details/HoraceCompleteInterlinear

>>24642316
right tool for the job kind of thing, anon
Loebs or any other kind of bilingual edition are good if you are at a stage where you aren't so much troubled by grammar or basic lexicon anymore but still need to check your understanding of what is being said, or maybe just want another pair of eyes on the text
interlinears are what you have in mind for more elementary comparison

>>24643135
Varg “nullo” non est sed vir doctissimus de religione et cultu veterorum europeanorum

>>24643135
Varg “nullus” non est sed vir doctissimus de religione et cultu veterorum europeanorum

>>24642102
My native language and English, which are the two languages I use, are both analytic languages. When I started learning Latin I thought a language like that with many different endings probably has less syntactic ambiguity than my native language and English. I was trying to get an answer to whether this is so, and I'm still working on that. I learned a little about synthetic vs analytic languages. Then I learned about agglutinative synthetic languages and thought that seems great, maybe such languages are the best, maybe they have as little syntactic ambiguity as fusional synthetic languages like Latin or less, still not knowing whether fusional synthetic languages have less syntactic ambiguity than analytic languages but having as the working hypothesis that fusional synthetic languages have less syntactic ambiguity than analytic languages. Then I read a little about Lojban, which I had heard about previously. This is a constructed language which is designed to have no syntactic ambiguity. I was surprised to learn that Lojban is an analytic language and not a synthetic language, neither fusional synthetic like Latin, nor agglutinative synthetic like Finnish.

Are there any books which have the original Latin or Greek, a word-for-word interlinear English translation, and also sentence-for-sentence English translation either interlinearly or as a separate column? I know "interlinear" means "between the lines", so technically if you have two lines of translation below the original Latin/Greek, one word-for-word and one sentence-for-sentence, then maybe "interlinear" is not the right word to use but whatever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlinear_gloss

>>24643221
closest I know is the interlinear Iliad I used the first time I read it

btw some interlinears cheekly alter the word order of the original for clarity I suppose, but imho that's a bad idea and to be avoided

>>24643244
>>24643407
I started studying Latin not long ago. I plan to study Greek too but I think I'll wait a little and focus on Latin for now.

>>24643153
This, interlinears like >>24643136
posted are better for beginners, and the original ones produced in the 1700s were intended for absolute beginners. Loeb’s are intended more for you to read one side and reference the other or do lookups, and so they work better for someone who already grasps the majority of the vocabulary and grammar on the page.

There’s also a highly literal glossed facing translation of de Bello Gallico and the Aeneid in paperback out there published within the last 20 years or so if you look it up.

>>24643221
There's the Emphatic Diaglott of the New Testament.
https://archive.org/details/emphaticdiaglott00wils/mode/2up

>>24643633
Thanks. I should have said Latin, rather than Latin and Greek, though, because I haven't begun studying Greek yet. Or maybe I should start right now. Are there any books similar to LLPSI for Greek?

>>24643642
Athenaze is kinda the standard, but there have been some newer texts I haven't personally checked out, like Logos: Lingua Graeca which IIRC tries to be more like LLPSI, I've heard some complain Athenaze isn't as easy beginning but personally I loved it

Here Mark Passio says one of Caesar's books contains a story about Caesar lambasting a centurion for teaching a slave their method of learning, which he says is the Trivium. I'm trying to find this story. It seems the book he's talking about is Commentarii de Bello Gallico. I asked AI about it but it says there is no such story in that book. Is Mark lying? Does anyone know of such a story in any of Caesar's books? Did anyone read Commentarii de Bello Gallico?

https://youtu.be/uj08lQ1qfAI

>>24643168
quae nuncupat ille religionis antiquae europeae esse nihil aliud ac gerrae a suamet muliere inventae ducendae sunt, non equidem ad germanos sive celtas pertinentes
olim cum pipiatus suos inspexerim ne quidem indoeuropaeos videbatur censere populos nobis avos esse stirpe linguaque

>>24643720
I don't remember anything of the sort either, then again it's been years since I read it

>>24643783
>>24643783

>>24643710
Thanks but I just checked out Athenaze and it's not a natural method book, which is what I meant by "similar to LLPSI". Of course you need a little bit of information about the alphabet to get started with Greek but Athenaze from the looks of it goes way beyond that to where it's simply not a natural method book.

>>24632352 (OP)

learning wth chatgpt
Lupae viris in sylvanae laudant
Poetarum pulchris vocis reliquant
Mundae vita libertaque cantant
mock me lol

>>24643198
Can I ask what your native language is?